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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 23:08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We also now know that Shar manipulated Karsus into making his uber-blunder... right after he handled some 'Heavy Magic'.
Uh? Where is this from?
Interesting conversation btw, I'm keeping out because I strongly disagree on some of the assumptions on Larloch but it's fun seeing where all of you run with them.
This was information relayed to me via several other people on the WotC boards, and it came from the three super-modules that came out at the end of 3e (the ones dealing with the Weave and Shadoweave, and had a lot Shar-worshiper stuff in them).
I don't know if it was specifically stated, or just implied (there was much discussion on that point), but Shar was there when Karsus was working on his 'ultimate spell' - she realized his genius was her chance to get back that which she lost (and she is the goddess of LOSS, BTW).
The part about the Heavy Magic is just my own take, but it is derived DIRECTLY from the canon (unlike my 'theories'). In the Netheril box we have it where Karsus experiments with the Weave itself and discoveries/creates something called 'Heavy Magic', which was extremely dangerous and had the ability to create 'instant liches'. hats canon. Later, he crafted his spell and stole Mystra's power - also canon. In the the three uber-modules it is implied that Shar has been steering certain events on Toril since Netheril, and had a hand in Karsus' path of experimentation, which lead to the fall of Mystryl.
Thus, when I say "he created heavy magic and then was corrupted by Shar", its just an over-simplification of the events which did indeed transpire, in that order.
Shar is also the 'whisperer in the darkness' - the 'great seducer', but not in the same manner as Asmodeus; she finds those who crave magical power, and then pries at their weakness until she has her opening. I am sure nearly all of her pawns had no idea they were doing her bidding when they were doing so (unlike Larloch, who she could never fool - he would have had to have been approached directly, if at all). It could even be that Larloch and Shar had nothing to do with each other, other then that Larloch discovered the 'deeper secrets' of The Weave, and also became aware of the Black Chronology. H may have even been trying to stop the Spellplague himself... but I doubt it. He is more the type to foresee an apocalypse as an opportunity.
In fact... if some of you still insist on painting Larloch as a 'good guy' (which he isn't, but he isn't 'evil' either... he's beyond those definitions), perhaps it was Larloch who managed to stop Shar from achieving her ultimate victory - killing Mystra for good, and taking over as god of magic in Realmspace. His control of the portal network (once again, called The Road of Stars & Shadows) may have somehow nerfed her full power-grab, and thats why the Shadoweave collapsed as well - in the end, it doesn't seem like she was much better off, now does it?
He's not called 'The Shadow King' for nuthin'. 
Edited for multiple spelling errors |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2014 21:08:03 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 23:35:40
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@Mapolq: you bring up a lot of good points, particularly about the changes in her portfolios. We don't have much to go on historically or in novels about Mystryl's personality, but I really do see what you're getting at here. I think you're going for a more subtle interpretation than I was envisioning, yet also things that are definitional of Mystryl's character versus the later Mystras. She herself isn't different, though her roles certainly have changed with portfolios and alignment. Law, or structure, wasn't key to Mystryl but it was an essential part of Mystra's perspective. Definitely a lot of things to think about further.
@Markustay: I don't think anyone, certainly not me, has tried to paint Larloch as good. Most have said similar things about him appearing to support the balance, or at least prevent further damage. In that sense, he seems to care more about the structure of the Weave than people, entities, even gods. About the heavy magic - Karsus - Shar connection you're trying to make, it's all really still just a theory. It's an interesting idea, but it's not a slam-dunk IMO. It could just as easily apply to Kozah the Destroyer (instead of Shar) who was similarly a long-time enemy of Mystryl.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 00:44:27
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I was going to edit my post, but it's a pretty major point so I guess it's better done as a separate one.
In my first reason, the heart of the "conundrum" as I put it is why the hell did Ed and others create so many types of "magic in its pure form"? Silver Fire always seemed a bit redundant with Spellfire (and so does Selūne's "Moonlight" but I don't have an explanation for that one either... Selūne is a weird one). Heavy Magic may factor into this as well. So, it may very well be because of sloppy writing and editing, but it's rather fun to speculate it was actually planned out, at least in part. |
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Edited by - Mapolq on 13 Mar 2014 00:47:55 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 01:10:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I was going to edit my post, but it's a pretty major point so I guess it's better done as a separate one.
In my first reason, the heart of the "conundrum" as I put it is why the hell did Ed and others create so many types of "magic in its pure form"? Silver Fire always seemed a bit redundant with Spellfire (and so does Selūne's "Moonlight" but I don't have an explanation for that one either... Selūne is a weird one). Heavy Magic may factor into this as well. So, it may very well be because of sloppy writing and editing, but it's rather fun to speculate it was actually planned out, at least in part.
That's a big question, but I think the original idea was to simply have diversity in the many forms of magic. Silver fire does seem restricted to her Chosen, and perhaps is "pure magic" in a sense. Shadow magic really does seem to be its opposite, given what we know from the Elminster in Hell novel. It also seems deeply tied to the portals network, so I'd say that it's "fabric of reality" energy-stuff.
Spellfire seems a bit more processed, somehow. Where Silver Fire might be "physics plus quantum reality manipulation" (and users are literally fiddling with reality-bending) the nature of Spellfire seems more like an overlaying raw energy that can be shaped fairly easily (perhaps it's magical energy that has been filtered through the Weave of Reality but hasn't yet been structured).
To this day, though, I don't really see Blue Fire as being a pure form of magic. At least they aren't still overusing the word "cerulean" any longer, heh. But honestly I don't really know what Blue Fire might be. Is it the "physics plus quantum stuff" that underlies Shadow-stuff magic? It's possible, I suppose, but there haven't been many reveals about it.
It's entertaining to speculate about things this way, perhaps:
Arcane Spells - highly shaped and filtered "positive" energy
Silver Fire - raw positive energy
Spellfire - balanced and melded positive+negative energy
Blue Fire - raw negative energy (or anti-energy)
Shadowspells - highly shaped and controlled "negative" energy
Of course, once we start doing that, we have to ask where Incarnum and Heavy Magic fit in. And Table Magic and Spellsong and Runecrafting and... ;)
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 13 Mar 2014 01:25:26 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 02:04:38
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I've always looked at Silver Fire as raw magic empowered by Mystra's divine power (a melding of raw magic and deific power).
This 'Blue Fire' could be pure, raw magic (without the essence of Mystra's infusing it). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 12:44:38
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Yeah, there is some wonkiness in the inter-relationships of all that different 'fire', but I am sure Ed knows precisely what is what. If there are any discrepancies, I would say it was because of another writer's misuse of the lore (not on-purpose, either - its fairly easy to misinterpret someone else's concepts in a fantasy setting).
As for my 'theory' (pertaining to Karsus), the only theory part of it is that 'Heavy Magic' is the Negative side of the Weave (the "Dark Side of the Force", etc), and I don't understand what else it could be when we know it makes 'instant liches' (which is some pretty potent death/shadow/negative energy right there). The rest is fact - Karsus did indeed 'discover' Heavy Magic, and then afterwards worked on his 'ultimate spell', which was influenced by Shar (from the three super-modules that appeared at the tail-end of 3e). I am not saying he 'turned to evil', I am merely saying he 'opened a door' he shouldn't have.
Karsus himself must have contained both sides of The Weave, because the Karsestone was used by the Shades to bring Thultanthar back from the Shadow plane, and if all they required was shadowmagic, then they should have been able to handle that themselves. Hmmmm... just re-reading those bits in the RotAW series... something to all that. It seems the Karsestone leaned more toward the negative side, given that it was being used as a phylactory. There is also a moment where blue fire flashes as Wulgreth is destroyed. Hmmmmm...
You know what... maybe Karsus didn't really 'steal' all of Mystra's magic. Maybe what he did was rend the Weave itself.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2014 12:46:15 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6362 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 13:43:27
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But that doesn't make him evil, just amoral.
'Evil' itself is highly subjective. Our ability to judge what is 'good' and what is 'evil' stems from our empathy - our ability to identify with the plight of others. Karsus had no empathy what-so-ever. He did not want to save Netheril because he loved his people, he wanted to do it to prove he was the greatest archmage of all time. Doing 'good' isn't the same as being 'altruistic', when you have selfish motives.
And this is probably why he failed.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2014 13:44:57 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 16:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
What do you mean by "quantum reality manipulation"? 
Uhm, magical subspace timey wimey stuff that - oh, I don't know. ;)
I think I was going for some kind of sub-molecular woo-woo and got carried away. But it sounds kinda good, right? ;)
quote:
As for other kinds of magic, you're right in principle, of course. But what I'm trying to discuss is, uhm... an Effective Model of Arcane Interactions in the Energy Regime of Primordial Divine Essences [Markustay (2014)]. You can't expect me to give you a Theory of Everything in two days, right?
(...)
You brought physics into it, don't blame me for my silliness! 
We should host a convention for researchers and theorists in Arcane Sub-Molecular Physics and the Art of Mystical Energy Manipulation. Or something. Could be fun, a lot of people making up stuff that no one understands. ;)
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 17:40:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But that doesn't make him evil, just amoral.
'Evil' itself is highly subjective. Our ability to judge what is 'good' and what is 'evil' stems from our empathy - our ability to identify with the plight of others. Karsus had no empathy what-so-ever. He did not want to save Netheril because he loved his people, he wanted to do it to prove he was the greatest archmage of all time. Doing 'good' isn't the same as being 'altruistic', when you have selfish motives.
And this is probably why he failed.
I'd agree that Evil is somewhat subjective, but not "highly" subjective. Most cultures tend to define their evils (and their good things), and not all cultures will agree all the time on everything in their respective lists. But there are some commonalities, and one might find more diversity within a culture than between cultures.
Larloch doesn't strike me as amoral, exactly. He's lived (er, well, been undead) for so long that he may not cleave to the values of his original human culture, and probably considers (most) mortals and their cultures as simply tools to use in promoting his own interests. Larloch is set apart from mortal culture, by time, knowledge and power. How does one begin to define good and evil from Larloch's personal perspective?
Clearly he has very long-reaching goals and interests, different researches and stakes that he plays out. But "amoral" in the sense that mortals use it (i.e. "lacking a moral sense") doesn't seem quite right. He hasn't been concerned with what's right and wrong for humans (or other mortals), and so many of his actions are likely perceived as evil from a mortal's perspective.
BUT he also seems to be working to support a kind of structure. It might be a structure that he himself controls, which means killing people (or villages, or celestial entities) that get in his way. This means, on some level, that he has a form of principles, what he personally views as proper, acceptable and "right" - and also clear ideas about what should be stopped. Having lived so long, he's a different kind of entity and human morals don't always apply. In that sense, he's neither good nor evil. Outsiders may view him as either, given their interactions with him.
Some interesting "standards" and "principles" he appears to have, which might be entirely pragmatic or they might be a kind of personal code:
- Ensure self-survival, surrounding oneself with (controlled) allies and minions.
- Assure your own independence. Serve no being or entity in the sense that they gain power or influence over you. Temporary alliances are fine if mutual goals are met.
- Learn all that is possible to know about the Weave and things that interact with it and derive from it.
- Prevent others from learning your secrets and using them against you.
- Stop those who would endanger or destroy the Weave.
- others?
Now the last one might seem "good" but ultimately it ensures that Larloch's primary skill (magic) and power focus isn't taken away. It really makes me wonder about what things he did, what measures he took, to maintain his Art during and after the Spellplague.
Larloch may want to control the Weave, and he may see controlling the portal network as a step toward that control. At the same time, though, he doesn't seem to be interested in taking Mystra's place. He also seems totally disinterested in expanding his "realm" such as it is. Seizing control of what he can, manipulating people and his agents toward varied goals (and generously rewarding them for success), while also working to stabilize magic/reality and even sometimes nations, well, it all just seems very pragmatic and "balance" oriented. This is why Larloch is such a cipher and why he's so darned compelling.
Don't get me wrong here, though. Cross Larloch and I doubt that he would suffer any moral twinges over killing you (or villages or nations). Interfere with his goals or threaten his interests, and you're toast.
Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling now so I'll stop. ;)
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 19:27:20
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According to Ed's short story Tears So White, Larloch speaking to Storm said: "I seek greater Art, always. I do not seek battle with you, or any who serve the Lady." Due to what he does, creating new magic etc, he seems to have a "special pass" with Mystra, much like Daurgothoth, The Creeping Doom. He desires the Silver Fire, but it would destroy him. It was also noted in that short story that the Simbul would have blasted and destroyed him utterly with the silver fire. If Larloch was truly a threat to Mystra or the Weave, I think the Chosen would have had to destroy him. He may be evil (he did unleash that plague on Baldur's Gate in 1351 DR from that adventurer who came to his home), but if he were to go truly bad, he would be too dangerous to be left to his own devices.
According to Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast he does NOT like the name Warlock King. I find this interesting if this is not one of Volo's fabrications. It would fit though, as Warlocks don't seem to control the Art as true wizards and more like channel infernal powers. Netheril wizards were snobby about such things. This could also be construed as Warlocks always existing, which is fine. The destruction of the Weave would have left the infernal powers with a greater "road in" to mortals so to speak and is why we see so many cases of warlocks in 5E than in previous times when they were quite rare. Plus, their powers open rifts in the Realms, which being tears in the Weave, are definitely something the Chosen and those who follow Mystra would want destroyed.
In Bury Elminster Deep, the Simbul says: She (Mystra) also knew she could preserve something of herself and the secrets of the Art she'd inherited - and Azuth could do the same - by insinuating it into the minds of Larloch's liches, and so into the blueflame items. Which means the items contain seeds that could perhaps bring back Larloch, or even something...someone more... if used in the right manner."
So I think, Larloch is or has already been destroyed from the Spellplague or is at least dormant. And that above quote to me, is how they may be able to bring back Azuth. Maybe Larloch is going to become the next Azuth.
The other thought I had was that when Mystra returned it was due to the bluefire items the Simbul had used in addition to all that Silver Fire. If that's the case, it's possible both Azuth and Larloch were also returned with the Weave returning. Kind of like a system reboot, since these items are supposedly seeds. Larloch had ALOT of liches and bound with all their magic and essence into bluefire items, so it is possible more of them are floating around the Realms, available to be seized.
I wonder what a meeting between Larloch and Telamont would be like. That kind of fits the Mystra verse Shar thing, though Telamont didn't seem particularly devout, more of him and Shar being mutually useful at the time.
Definitely looking forward to The Herald.
I also think Larloch is a Chosen of Mystra. Or the precursor to current day Chosen. Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast has some interesting spell-like abilities that seem very close to what Chosen have too. If vampire Manshoon can be one, I see no reason why he can't. His desire for Silver Fire may well be from his loss in using it by becoming undead.
And while we're talking about Halaster and Larloch being sort of linked, maybe he was a precursor Chosen too. In Elminster in Hell, when Mystra is talking to him we see this:
Halaster: "Will you give me magic enough to have a chance of succeeding?"
Mystra: "I will. Thrice as much power as you've ever tasted or wielded before, and more."
Halaster: "That's what made me mad. I think," he whispered, "I'll do it."
However, it's also entirely possible what made him mad was the touch of Shar and the power she offered. If this is Shar, it would fit with the Mystra verse Shar, but again in proxy form.
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Edited by - Eilserus on 13 Mar 2014 19:42:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 20:50:12
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Keep in mind, also, this tidbit from Ed:
quote:
To Wooly Rupert: when you post sentences like this one: And though I can't think of any evidence to support it, it's not impossible that part of what Larloch is doing is containing something... be aware that you are (ahem) VERY perceptive.
That's an older quote; I think it predates 4E. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 21:06:03
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Heres the thing - most mortal minds can't handle that level of power - of suddenly having senses they never dreamed of, of seeing things they were unaware of.... thats why Chosen (and even normal mages) sometimes go mad. When you tap-into the magic of the Realms, you are tapping into something that the gods themselves are made out of - that 'raw power' of the universe. Even Szass Tam was aware of his limitations in this regard.
I think guys like Larloch and Halaster (and yes, Karsus and Telmont, etc) sometimes 'dig too deep', and uncover things that were best left alone (in much the way physicists unlocked the secret of the atom... and gave us the Atom Bomb). Think of it being similar to how the Force is handled in SW - there is much power in 'the dark side', but it corrupts. You have to have a truly pure soul - with no hint of malice - to be able to handle contact with the Weave at that level and not be harmed by it (like Elminster).
I am now almost getting a weird analogy with the Green Lanterns as well - how the different shades of their power correspond to the emotional spectrum. Could blue = love, I wonder? The thing that Ed always goes back to with El is that "he STILL cares, after all these years". Thats what makes him so special. I wonder how many previous Chosen never made the cut (Larloch? Halaster?)
I think, in the end, we may find out both Halaster and Larloch were heroes, in their own, strange way. Each tried to protect at least a part of the weave from the Spellplague. Right now, Larloch may be in much the same situation Elminster was in during the ToT - barely able to do anything because he is overflowing with the energy he is holding in trust. Ioulaum may also be another that is 'keeping things together' with his vast psionic mind. Different archmages approached the problem from different angles, is all.
Another thought just struck me - if Phaerimm eat Arcane magic/life, then are the Sharn capable of 'eating' shadow-magic? They seem to be opposites of a sort. Could the loss of so many of them just prior to the Spellplague helped contribute to the loss of their (possible) balancing effect? What if both are truly like an 'immune system' for the world, and help keep all the wild magic from destroying it? We know thats what the Weave does - it keeps the magical energies (unleashed during the War of Light & Darkness* in-check, and from consuming the world.
*I just realized I have been 'quoting' the wrong name for the portal-system: its called The Road of Stars & Shadows, which I always get mixed-up with the name of the godwar. My bad.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2014 21:17:32 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 21:11:54
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| I could see Larloch getting some special favors from Mystra for doing this. I wonder what this containment would be? A primordial? An anchor point for the Weave? Since the Weave was "racing to ruin" so to speak, he could well have been holding an anchor down or bolstering the Weave in his area. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 21:20:40
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He is protecting, "that which was lost", and although I have a few theories about that, it could be anything... but it would have to be primal.
Selune has tears for a reason, and I mean that both metaphorically and physically. If there is one thing I have learned about Ed's world-building, he does NOT name stuff willy-nilly. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 02:38:08
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Markustay, you've inspired me to speculate.
Bear in mind that this is total, rampant, crazysauce, pure speculation.
What if Mystryl had a child, and that child was "that which was lost"? This feels on track, somehow. We know very little about the end of the Netheril period, it's possible that Mystryl had a child. Perhaps a young son, a baby. And he was lost before he grew into his powers or his place among the pantheon. Shar, somehow, took her nephew and threw him into the space between worlds, out of spite or revenge, into a "place" where no gods can go without risking annihilation.
The father could have been Targus. Losing his son might have been the trigger for Targus losing his mind to rage and becoming Garagos. Why does Garagos rage at Jergal? Perhaps he thinks Jergal allowed the baby to die and prevents the child from returning? Why does Garagos rage at Sharess? For her role in bringing him (as Targus) and Mystryl together?
Selune would naturally shed her Tears for the loss of her grandson.
For Mystryl, perhaps the loss of her son put her into a deep remorse. She withdraws, becoming the "Hidden One" in her mourning. Out of sadness, she loses or disconnects from the portfolios of song, time, spring, and perhaps others. During this time, her attention to the Weave drifted and she did not watch Karsus carefully, and she only re-awakens to do her duty when Karsus completes his spell.
And Larloch, not a Chosen but originally perhaps a Mystic Theurge(?) who had a deep devotion to Mystryl, what if he decided to try and find the lost god-child between the worlds? Understanding the portal network, with its myriad paths and connections through "stars and shadow" would be a natural first step. He became a lich in order to complete his research and his work, and perhaps even to protect him from the "lost place" between the worlds. By mastering the portal network, he is protecting the pathway that might lead to Mystryl's lost son.
Too overly dramatic? Does it fit well at all with canon?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 03:09:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He is protecting, "that which was lost", and although I have a few theories about that, it could be anything... but it would have to be primal.
Where does this info come from? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 08:30:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Markustay, you've inspired me to speculate.
Bear in mind that this is total, rampant, crazysauce, pure speculation.
What if Mystryl had a child, and that child was "that which was lost"? This feels on track, somehow. We know very little about the end of the Netheril period, it's possible that Mystryl had a child. Perhaps a young son, a baby. And he was lost before he grew into his powers or his place among the pantheon. Shar, somehow, took her nephew and threw him into the space between worlds, out of spite or revenge, into a "place" where no gods can go without risking annihilation.
The father could have been Targus. Losing his son might have been the trigger for Targus losing his mind to rage and becoming Garagos. Why does Garagos rage at Jergal? Perhaps he thinks Jergal allowed the baby to die and prevents the child from returning? Why does Garagos rage at Sharess? For her role in bringing him (as Targus) and Mystryl together?
Selune would naturally shed her Tears for the loss of her grandson.
For Mystryl, perhaps the loss of her son put her into a deep remorse. She withdraws, becoming the "Hidden One" in her mourning. Out of sadness, she loses or disconnects from the portfolios of song, time, spring, and perhaps others. During this time, her attention to the Weave drifted and she did not watch Karsus carefully, and she only re-awakens to do her duty when Karsus completes his spell.
And Larloch, not a Chosen but originally perhaps a Mystic Theurge(?) who had a deep devotion to Mystryl, what if he decided to try and find the lost god-child between the worlds? Understanding the portal network, with its myriad paths and connections through "stars and shadow" would be a natural first step. He became a lich in order to complete his research and his work, and perhaps even to protect him from the "lost place" between the worlds. By mastering the portal network, he is protecting the pathway that might lead to Mystryl's lost son.
Too overly dramatic? Does it fit well at all with canon?
You might be on to something here as far as a story. I wouldn't mix Targus and Mystryl though. What if the child though were a child of the sun? This might be how Lathander and Amaunator have also been caught up in the whole "cycle of night". Perhaps Lathander is the love child and Amaunator is the original, and whenever Lathander gets shunted away, Amaunator is forced to reawaken. Perhaps somehow Entropy/Pandorym/Talos is also thrown into this mix as well.... perhaps as a conduit to the "other place".
So, in this admittedly rough theory, the Imaskari bring Pandorym into the world and split Pandorym into mind and body (Entropy) as a defense should the deities of the Mulan people follow them. They also cast the Godwall on the crystal sphere. Maybe what they didn't know is that Pandorym/Entropy/Talos was the being that Shar had set to watching the godchild of Mystryl and the sun. So, when this being is reactivated during the spellplague, it recaptures Lathander, and Amaunator is forced to reawaken.
So, when Karsus casts his spell, it actually frees Mystryl from her duties as goddess of magic (if only temporarily), and in those moments, she reaches across the boundaries of "whatever" and grabs her son Lathander and brings him back to the world.... allowing Amaunator to fade into the background again.
To add in further complexity, what if Hilather/Halaster were involved with the splitting of Pandorym into mind and body,
Just as a thought as well, what if a second being was born of the intermixing of Selune's and Shar's stuff besides Mystryl? What if shadow is born of the mixing of "the light in darkness" and "darkness"? Hmmm, not seeing the linkage here, but something just screams the Imaskari Madryoch and the shadow stone having some kind of involvement with what happened in the spellplague. I can't quite remember the book... how did he get released into the world again?
Then there was a deity of anarchy who opposed the god of justice it seems.... Valigan THIRDBORN.... I wonder if "Tyr" faded away around the time Amaunator was forced to awaken... and could this Valigan be another child of Selune's (or Mystryl's).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 08:49:17
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| Hmmmm, and continuing my thoughts.... what if Shar's cycle of night requires the world to become "simpler" again.... and by simpler I mean "if certain deities are killed/debilitated, then their predecessors who have gone to sleep are forced to re-awaken to assume the roles". So, in an effort to destroy the world, the god's portfolios must be placed in the hands of fewer beings. This may be why Selune was so willing to allow Sehanine Moonbow and Eilistraee (and say the Mulan gods of the moon.... and Cegilune the fey hag goddess, who possibly turned evil AFTER becoming a moon goddess) to share her powers, and why they all had to fade during the spellplague. Similarly, Amaunator having to return and Tyr and Lathander dying. Jergal maybe just didn't want to go to sleep whenever he handed off his powers, or maybe he felt he could stop Shar's plans by guiding from the background. Then there was the hand of the deity of anarchy (insanity?) (by whatever name Cyric / Valigan) seeming to "go away" around the times of these major changes ... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 13:29:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He is protecting, "that which was lost", and although I have a few theories about that, it could be anything... but it would have to be primal.
Where does this info come from?
In one of the many threads where we were discussing Larloch, many speculations were being made (including that one, by me), and when I - or someone else - asked about that in one of Ed's threads (some time ago), the response from THO was along the lines of, "That is unfortunately NDA... but Ed is grinning ear-to-ear right now".
So, no direct confirmation... but there was something to it. It could be a LOT less 'dramatic' then what Sleyvas purposed above. It could even be meant in a non-physical, metaphorical kind-of-way. For example - he may have 'collected' a lot of the negative energy that was released when the Weave collapsed and Netheril fell... its been taking a LONG time for Shar to collect it all, if thats what she's been doing the past 1500+ years. It could even be a reference to the Road of Stars & Shadows, which would tie directly into FR's main meta-plot (the whole 'FORGOTTEN' part, because knowledge of those 'paths' were lost). It really could be anything, buuuuuut...
I feel lke something else major happened during the godwar - what we know of in FR lore as The War of Light & Darkness - something we are not yet privy to. Shar becomes the goddess of loss, and Selune is in mourning (her 'tears') over something. What they both have lost may not even be the same thing, or it just might be as simple as the power both lost during their fight (when Mystryl and The Weave were created).
Hmmmmm... Mystryl was their child! Sleyvas may have been onto something there. How long have the tears been around? I know thats been discussed before. Even if the dates don't work for us, there no reason why the mystryl we are aware of was 'the first'.
We also lost the first sun, which may play into all this. Both the FR human legends and the draconic legends reference a first sun that was destroyed.
Could the 'first sun' actually have been "the first son"?
And could he have been the first god of magic? The allegory may be a bit too Narnia-like, though. Lots of ways to spin this... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Mar 2014 13:31:17 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6362 Posts |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 16:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I feel lke something else major happened during the godwar - what we know of in FR lore as The War of Light & Darkness - something we are not yet privy to. Shar becomes the goddess of loss, and Selune is in mourning (her 'tears') over something. What they both have lost may not even be the same thing, or it just might be as simple as the power both lost during their fight (when Mystryl and The Weave were created).
Hmmmmm... Mystryl was their child! Sleyvas may have been onto something there. How long have the tears been around? I know thats been discussed before. Even if the dates don't work for us, there no reason why the mystryl we are aware of was 'the first'.
We also lost the first sun, which may play into all this. Both the FR human legends and the draconic legends reference a first sun that was destroyed.
Could the 'first sun' actually have been "the first son"?
And could he have been the first god of magic? The allegory may be a bit too Narnia-like, though. Lots of ways to spin this...
In the early stories of the battles between Shar and Selune, at least one that I read noted that Shar snuffed out many suns. Many rising gods at the time also were killed. But a good portion of that seems to be pre-Mystryl.
Did the first dragons exist on Toril before Selune created a sun? Other life forms also? With no solar energy? If so, that's very interesting. Or did Toril originally have two suns at the same time?
Also, did Selune lose her ability to create suns (and Shar lose the ability to outright destroy them) when Mystryl was created? Shar was wounded, but IIRC it says Selune was wounded more, and Mystryl (or Shar and Selune's loss of power) seems to have stopped the battle on that planetary/solar level.
What Mystryl received in her creation was a heavy power infusion of both creative and anti-creative energy. Why those didn't annihilate each other on contact is perhaps the biggest mystery of all. Or maybe Selune "stacked the deck" by giving up more energy than what was taken from Shar.
I doubt that Selune would cry over the loss of her own energy, especially since it resulted in an act of creation (Mystryl). So I come back to the theory of Mystryl having a son that was lost. As Sleyvas suggested, Amaunator being the father instead of Targus/Garagos is certainly possible. And Lathander seems like a natural candidate to have been the baby.
But maybe there were two babies, and Lathander had a twin brother. If we go off of the fairly recent theory that Lathander obtained the "dawn" aspect of some kind of tripartite link, perhaps Lathander's twin took the "dusk" aspect from Amaunator. As we know, dusk hasn't been around as a portfolio for a very long time, so perhaps it was lost along with Lathander's twin? Of course, this would go against the idea that Amaunator and Lathander are the same entity.
Shar could have captured the "dusk" twin and tried to force it into ascendance. Something happened, though, and perhaps it was lost between worlds (or realities) somehow through the portal network. The process also forced Lathander into ascendance and killed the original Amaunator. If none of the gods can follow Lathander's twin, then he would indeed be lost to all of them, including Shar.
Anyway, just more rampant speculation on my part.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 17:00:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How long have the tears been around? I know thats been discussed before. Even if the dates don't work for us, there no reason why the mystryl we are aware of was 'the first'.
Selune's tears "popped" into existence at -3500DR, as first seen and recorded by an astronomer, Tu Pi Chei, of Shou Lung. There's also a magnificent castle in the center, I guess on one of the asteroid-Tears. It's described as:
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beautifully constructed with magically lit spires that reach a hundred feet above the ground. The grounds themselves are covered in long green grass and constantly blooming bushes. An overturned magical chalice pours water constantly which flows out of the citadel's doors and eventually out into space. The asteroid is populated by ravens (who are prevented from escaping the air envelope) and brown puddings which prey on the ravens. No sentient being would want to live here once they discover that fact as the puddings are extremely difficult to dislodge when not hungry, making complete eradication of them near-impossible.
No one, apparently to this day, has ever investigated the castle and returned to tell of what they found.
Many of the other asteroids (there are hundreds, some large some small) have atmospheres and spacefaring outposts with trade centers.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 20:07:23
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Hmmmm... so whatever they 'lost' would have dated to the war, which is what I always thought. That means that if it is all about the 'first god of magic' (who may or may not have been 'the first sun'), it would have had to have been a precursor of Mystryl.
Dragons did exist, but not not the 'earthly' creatures we see today; they were the more powerful celestial type. True Celestial Dragons are part of the celestial Bureaucracy, and therefor 'gods' (note the smaller-case 'g' - all 'spirits' are considered gods, or Kami, in Asian mythos). The Draconic Creation stories talk about a time before terrestrial dragons existed.
Thus we had many 'lesser spirits/gods' involved in that war... perhaps even the Shadvari. The Creator Races did indeed exist before the first sun was extinguished, and due to both their own power (most of them can change their nature in one way or another) and divine intervention, managed to survive long-enough for Ao to Sunder the world and create the new sun.
Note also we have both Lathander and Amaunator in the Realms - two sun gods - and if we throw in all the fan-lore regarding 'the Dusk Lord', we have death sharing the sun portfolio with the two sun deities, which indicates (to me) that some sort of deal was struck. You know, this could even tie-into The Dawn cataclysm - what if Lathander - The Dawn Lord - was the first sun? What if he somehow he managed to 're-invent' himself, by breaking time? Light = Life as well... there is something there I am not quite putting my finger on... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Mar 2014 17:46:29 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 21:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... so whatever they 'lost' would have dated to the war, which is what I always thought. That means that if it is all about the 'first god of magic' (who may or may not have been 'the first sun'), it would have had to have been a precursor of Mystryl.
Dragons did exist, but not not the 'earthly' creatures we see today; they were the more powerful celestial type. True Celestial Dragons are part of the celestial Bureaucracy, and therefor 'gods' (note the smaller-case 'g' - all 'spirits' are considered gods, or Kami, in Asian mythos). The Draconic Creation stories talk about a time before terrestrial dragons existed.
Thus we had many 'lesser spirits/gods' involved in that war... perhaps even the Shadvari. The Creator Races did indeed exist before the first sun was extinguished, and due to both their own power (most of them can change their nature in one way or another) and divine intervention, managed to survive long-enough for Ao to Sunder the world and creaet the new sun.
Note also we have both Lathander and Amaunator in the Realms - two sun gods - and if we throw in all the fan-lore regarding 'the Dusk Lord', we have death sharing the sun portfolio with the two sun deities, which indicates (to me) that some sort of deal was struck. You know, this could even tie-into The Dawn cataclysm - what if Lathander - The Dawn Lord - was the first sun? What if he somehow he managed to 're-invent' himself, by breaking time? Light = Life as well... there is something there I am not quite putting my finger on...
I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here. What leads you to think there was a "first" god of magic before Mystryl?
In the primal war between light and darkness, between Shar and Selune before Mystryl was born, a number of godlike entities apparently were created, took sides, and were destroyed before their names or purposes were remembered in history. I suppose one of those beings might have been a deity of magic and also was a Sun or son of some kind. Selune was creating planets and stars, Shar happily went around obliterating them, and newly-rising beings were caught in the crossfire. The cycle only seems to have stopped with Mystryl's birth.
But I'm not sure how this would relate to Selune's Tears.
By -3500DR, when Selune's Tears just pop into the sky, Mystryl was the only ever recorded god of magic. The dwarves and elves, even the drow all had long-standing communities at that point, so certainly they would have recorded a deity of magic before Mystryl, I'd think. Eaerlann, Illefarn, and Netheril were all allied against the orcs of the north, Delzoun and Ched Nasad had existed for a while, and even Illusk was fairly developed.
In -3595DR there was a war between Eaerlann, Mieyritar, and Illefarn which caused Netheril to restrict trade with all of them (they didn't want to risk offending any of them), but that was 100 years before Selune's Tears were in the sky. The Nether scrolls were discovered in -3533DR, which is the beginning of the "Nether Age" and ending the First Age.
Given the absence of anything else noted circa -3500DR, it's possible that the arrival of Selune's Tears were related to some elvish/drow/dwarf event. Or tied to something else not recorded.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 23:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Its weird, but lately i have been spotting references to blue fire all over the place in old 2nd edition sourcebooks and i'm sure one reference to the birth of Selune and Shar mentions a pool of blue fire.
Unfortunately as always i cant remember where i read it, but i'm certain i did read it and i'm not imagining it.
Mystra was pretty much always involved with blue glows around magic. Similarly, Azuth's symbol was "A Human Hand, forefinger
pointing upward, outlined in a nimbus of blue fire". The whole "silver fire" was pretty much Chosen. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 00:23:42
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I wouldn't put the first sun god as the first god of magic. He/she/it was the creation/child of Selune though. He/she/it was later "snatched from the sky" by the Night Serpent (presumably Dendar). Finally, before the Days of Thunder a sun returned. Now, whether this was the original sun or a new sun...
However, during the Tearfall, the primordial known as Asgorath/Asgoroth the world shaper hurled the ice moon zotha down (per 4e FR campaign guide) and THEN shattered the crystal sun with its breath (the shards of the shattered crystal sun made him bleed, which led to dragons coming about following the tearfall). Now, did the sun go away at that time? Well around that time was when Ao twinned the worlds, so presumably not. However, what happened with all those shards of the crystal sun? Did they become the tears? Where did the new sun come from (since the other was shattered)?
Also, there's this from FOR1 Draconomicon
"...The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.
#147;And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World.
Red, they were, red that would later depart from its purity But here before the beginning of Time, their red was the pure red of the shattered Crystal Sun. They spread their wings and took to the skies, circling around the still, cold form of Asgorath. One after another, score upon score, they bent their breath against the body of Asgorath, and the skies rang with their lamentations. Only one of the Spawn of Asgorath withheld his breath. Instead, he pulled a shard of the Crystal Sun from the flesh of Asgorath, and used it to draw blood from his own flesh, and this blood fell upon the face of the World.
#147;As before, there was movement where the blood fell, but the creatures that came forth from this blood were not of the pure red. Colored like the products of the World
they were, like the unloving metals. And the Renegade raised his voice, and his voice was a trumpet: '#145;I too have Created.#146;'
#147;The form of Asgorath began to stir, as the Renegade knew it must. The Renegade spread his wings and flew, and the Spawn of the Renegade followed him into the
farthest reaches of the world.#148;"
There's some further stuff in the Draconomicon to hint that the Renegade was known as Bahmat in Thorass, and thus Bahamut. Also, there's some discussion that the word "breath" was instead "breaths" in the original text and hints that Asgorath was a multi-headed draconic being (or possibly just multi-breathed... something that the authors don't mention). The spawn of Asgorath are obviously red dragons. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 10:18:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
In -3595DR there was a war between Eaerlann, Mieyritar, and Illefarn which caused Netheril to restrict trade with all of them (they didn't want to risk offending any of them), but that was 100 years before Selune's Tears were in the sky. The Nether scrolls were discovered in -3533DR, which is the beginning of the "Nether Age" and ending the First Age.
Well, Mieyritar was conquered in -11300 DR by Aryvandaar and destroyed in -10500 DR by the Dark Disaster, so ...
From where come the reference to a conflict between Eaerlann and Illefarn ?
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"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Umara: The Catalyst for the Rebirth of Old Thay?
