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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 14:37:55
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SO I have a player wanting to play a lizardfolk monk. He is telling me that since he has a natural attack of claw, claw, bite, he gets to take his flurry of blows then take all of his natural attacks also. I know it says natural attacks are secondary attacks but really? I thought I knew the rules until this player has started with our group. He is telling me that since he is coming in as an 8th level character he also wants me to lower everyone's wealth so he will be on the same level as them. These other players have been adventuring and have collected unique magic items. He wants me to nerf them so he can catch up. This is after choosing to play a different character. A little advice please?
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Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 15:12:16
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First off, he's a power-gamer. I am no rules guru, but it seems he is riding some sort of 'grey area' there (and I am sure someone here who knows far more about the crunchy stuff will tell you precisely why he can't do what he's attempting to do - its probably in Savage Species or something).
As for the other part... he wants you to nerf EVERYONE ELSE in the game so he can have more fun? REALLY?! 
JUST NO!!!
EDIT: I seem to recall some sort of rule about natural weapons counting as actual weapons - not sure if that applies, don't know where to find it, and don't know the specific circumstances (within the rules) that affects - I think maybe magical attack, but I'm not sure. Once again, I am sure someone else here will know the exact rule I am referring, and will enlighten both of us. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2014 15:17:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 15:25:55
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Okay, using some logic here - Natural weapons count as WEAPONS, and are NOT 'Monk Weapons'. Therefor, if the characters is going to use his natural weapons for the purpose of that encounter, he is considered armed with NON-Monk weapons, and cannot use flurry. That would be my ruling as a DM.
At the very least, I would make him burn a Feat to use his natural weapons during a flurry (there may even be some-such feat somewhere, but if not, you can just make it up). Natural weapons are usually part of a creature's bestial nature, and are used instinctively. A Monk's abilities rely on years of precise training. A person cannot be both at the same time - using the natural weapons (as an animal would) is like how a barbarian enters a rage, and therefor cannot use precise techniques.
For example, Drizzt can enter a primal 'Hunter' mode, but it very close to the Barb rage, and he is not thinking as an intelligent, sentient being when in that mode. He can use his weapons, but any of his ranger-granted (or Drow) abilities are unavailable - he just doesn't have the concentration for them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2014 15:27:12 |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 15:54:32
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| His bright idea is he wants to flurry with his fists and then as a secondary attack use his natural weapons. He argues that he is still doing thirty percent less damage than the barbarian of the party. He thinks I'm being unreasonable and now has asked me what other rules from the DMs Guide don't apply in my game. I posted about this player before and I am so ready to scrap the game and just call it a loss. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 16:27:30
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Lizardfolk can not use flurry only "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows"
Lizardfolk also have at least +5 armor (natural) , it still is armor.
At least that would be a RAW that one could use.
As for a new character joining an existing party, he clearly has no right to demand the other PCs be stolen from because of power levels.
Further as DM you get to decide what PC is permitted. A starting charater at 8th level clearly would be generated by the wealth rules, however as DM you could boost the wealth if you believed it would be fairer to have the new PC to have about the same advantage of magic as the existing PCs.
As far as this player goes, I would not let player join a game that I would run. If only because of arguing the rules. This player actually demanding the other PCs be penalized as a requirement for new player to join the game - that I would put on a boycut list and advise all other DMs I know never to allow in a game. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 16:28:44
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| Advice. Tranquilizer gun + double strength darts fired at player under the table, followed by installation of shock collar while knocked out + remote for collar for you to use during play = problem solved! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
880 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 17:02:34
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Regarding the rules, that's clearly not how it works: a human monk doesn't get 2 punches, 2 kicks and an headbutt because those are his natural weapons, he gets a predetermined number of attacks and that's it.
His great idea of flurry of blows with natural weapons is laughable, at most he gets to use his pathetic d4 for damage instead of the augmented monk dice step (Savage Species page 106)
Unless he finds a way to get 2 full round actions in the same round he either uses his natural routine (claw, claw, bite with all the penalties for fighting in this way like -5 to hit for secondary attacks and no full Str bonus) or his flurry of blows (using the attacks given by his monk training). This is because both the flurry of blows action and the use of all its natural weapons are full attack actions, meaning he has to choose wich one to use each round. (If you need to "prove" it to him you can refer to the lizardfolk write-up in the MM where the natural attacks are listed in the "Full Attack" row and then to the PHB monk writeup, under flurry of blows it specifies that it's a full round action).
Sidenote: i'm too lazy to check but is this the same player of the multi-limbed ninja or somesuch? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 17:13:06
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I'm weak on the rules side, but I would certainly agree that under no circumstances should other players be penalized to allow for a new player to join the group.
And the snarky "what other rules from the DMs Guide don't apply?" would pretty much end any chance of this guy joining my group. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Feb 2014 17:13:47 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 17:26:18
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Well, the rules are strong with me.
Flurry of blows requires a monk to make a full round action. Attacking with his secondary natural weapons requires a SECOND full-round action.
He can make his normal unarmed strikes in addition to his secondary natural attacks as a full-round action but it a choice between flurry OR natural attacks.
You also can't use natural weapons for a flurry of blows. They have to be monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
Hope this helps but if you want my advice...dump the player, not the game. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 12 Feb 2014 17:28:24 |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 18:48:30
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| Thanks all. As always this has been most helpful. I'm tired of pulling out my hair and losing my mind. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 19:27:23
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I'm not sure about the multi-armed ninja but I believe this is the player who came in demanding to use feats from suspicious sources (you know, from the interwebz). His problem with getting rid of him is 'political' in nature I believe.
Anyway, you got good advice on how to handle this so I'm not gonna add anything to it. I know you've tried talking to the guy and all but, honestly, sometimes you just gotta scrap a player and deal with the fallout. Hope you get this worked out somehow. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 21:57:08
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| The DM also has final say over what sources are allowed at his table. I myself would be reluctant to allow any book I didn't own, and certainly nothing from the internet, unless it was from WotC -- and that would be iffy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 22:14:05
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| I just got a message from him saying that he took two levels of monk and four levels of fighter. Then he said he took two flaws and some other such. I told him we don't use flaws for extra feats cause it was stated at the beginning of the campaign they had to be run by me first and the other players didn't have access to them. His response is that they are standard rules so I have to allow them. I freakin give up. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 23:49:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
I just got a message from him saying that he took two levels of monk and four levels of fighter. Then he said he took two flaws and some other such. I told him we don't use flaws for extra feats cause it was stated at the beginning of the campaign they had to be run by me first and the other players didn't have access to them. His response is that they are standard rules so I have to allow them. I freakin give up.
The DM has final say on anything, and that is also in the rulebooks. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 00:57:48
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| Shut the player down...step up and take on the role of DM and tell him to chill, or get out. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 04:38:12
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Flaws are an optional rule, as not permitted by DM clearly a new PC can not use them.
However I will also point out quote:
A flaw must have a meaningful effect regardless of character class or role. That way, a player can't reduce the flaw's importance through multiclassing. For instance, a flaw that only affects spellcasters might seem reasonable-but for nonspellcaster characters, the flaw likely proves meaningless. Even if you restrict the selection of such feats to characters of specific classes, a player can easily select a spellcasting class at 1st level, choose two flaws that apply to spellcasters, gain the bonus feats, multiclass into a nonspellcasting class at 2nd level and thereafter proceed as a primarily nonspellcasting character. The player has sacrificed a level to gain two bonus feats, a tradeoff that appeals to some players.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 12:09:27
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| This guy is clearly a powergamer with an attitude that wouldn't be a good addition to your game. I don't know what other factors are apparent in your game but to me it would almost certainly be better to just say 'I'm fed up with you. You're no longer welcome to join us.' and play with 3 PCs. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 13:14:00
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Yeah, it seems he is just basically saying. "this game is going to be ALL ABOUT ME, or I'm going to make your lives a living hell".
Just No... don't let him play. He want to do whatever he wants, and have the rest of you just 'bask in his glory'. He is not just a power-gamer, he is an egomania with delusions of grandeur.
In other words, a very bad, BAD person. Shut him down. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 15:22:45
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| Im going to have to take the hard nose DM approach. He is my beat friends son in law but oh well.I feel like I'm not a good enough DM because I cant handle this monkey. My players in my saturday game love my campaign. This guy in my Friday campaign has me second guessing myself and it feels like my confidence is shot. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 16:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
Im going to have to take the hard nose DM approach. He is my beat friends son in law but oh well.I feel like I'm not a good enough DM because I cant handle this monkey. My players in my saturday game love my campaign. This guy in my Friday campaign has me second guessing myself and it feels like my confidence is shot.
If your Saturday folks love your campaign, you're a good DM.
A DM should never have to deal with the crap this guy is hitting you with. His demand that you take away from the other players should be proof enough that he's not looking to play well with others.
Someone being a jerk to you is not a reflection on you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 17:07:58
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surely when the lizard "trains" as a monk his Claws are now been used to punch not claw, as showen by the change in damage in the monks table. and he cannot have multi full round actions in the same round.
secondly he has not right to demand you to punish the other players because he is lacking in something.
Finally, you are the DM of you group, everyone has house rules, and every DM follows the rules to the best of his understanding of them, if he has a problem with that he aint for your group.
i before asked a player to leave because his attuide was affecting the group and their fun.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 23:45:18
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My only observation is that this player seems ready to demand all the special advantages of being a lizardman, yet simultaneously rebukes the accompanying disadvantages.
His lizardman is poor, underequipped, and comparatively primitive. That‘s part of the package deal - the other players should not also suffer this disadvantage “to level the playing field“. Not unless, of course, they are given their own superpowers to compensate for this weakness. They will already suffer enough (when dealing with NPCs and the world) for accepting a dangerous, rude, and savage monster in their midst.
No DM is required to accept anything another DM accepted. No matter how valid or “provable“ things may be. This lizardman PC belongs in another game, not yours, and all of your PCs (including the new one) should use the same system/rules to generate characters. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 01:15:42
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flaws are literally an optional rule, unlike most of the other rulebooks (as in I believe it even states something like "this is entirely optional, pass this by your DM").
The below gives the exact example of a lizardfolk monk using unarmed strike and secondary attacks from WotC. It specifically disallows a monk from using a flurry and secondary attacks. However, it does allow him to use his monk attacks in combo with his secondary attacks IF he has the multi-attack feat.... just no flurry.... and he takes the -2 attack penalty on all his attacks. Note that all his secondary attacks are also at half strength bonus for dmg. So, he gets 3 extra attacks with a feat where with no feat spent he'd have a single extra flurry attack (at full strength bonus) for the same -2... and as he levels up in monk, that flurry penalty would disappear. Also, if he DOESN'T continue leveling in monk, he doesn't continue gaining additional unarmed strikes as iterative attacks.... so he doesn't gain much by going into fighter.
"A monk cannot use a flurry when using anything other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon. A nonmonk weapon or a natural weapon can't be combined with a flurry in any way."
"Monks and Natural Weapons
As we saw in Part Two, a creature with natural weapons can use them for secondary attacks when using the full attack action. A monk character with natural weaponry has the same option.
For example, an 8th-level lizardfolk monk with a Strength score of 17 has a base attack bonus of +7 (+1 for its 2 humanoid Hit Dice and +6 for its monk levels). The character has three natural weapons: two claws (1d4) and one bite (1d4). For this example, we'll assume the character also has the Multiattack feat.
With the full attack action, our example monk can make two unarmed attacks thanks to its +7 base attack bonus. After adding in the +3 bonus from the monk's Strength score of 17, our example character's unarmed attacks have the following attack bonuses: +10/+5. Thanks to the monk's class level and Strength score, damage for the unarmed strikes is 1d10+3.
The example monk also can attack with its claws and bite as secondary natural attacks at a -2 penalty (thanks to the character's Multiattack feat). Each natural weapon uses the character's +7 base attack bonus and +3 Strength modifier, except that the Strength bonus on damage is halved because these are secondary attacks: 2 claws +8 (1d4+1) and bite +8 (1d4+1).
As noted last week, there are no two-weapon or off-hand penalties for these attacks.
The example monk cannot use a flurry of blows because a flurry doesn't work with natural weaponry."
This is all officially covered by wizards of the coast for 3.5 at the following links. Scroll to the bottom and you'll find a discussion on using unarmed strikes and natural weapons in combo:
unarmed strikes part 3
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a
unarmed strikes part 2
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 01:26:39
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Oh, and the guy may want to consider just going fighter and taking the multiattack feat. Essentially, this would be like the "unarmed strike and natural weapons" section of this article. Thus, he'd lose a claw attack, but in a full attack action he'd gain his full attacks with weapons, plus a claw and a bite (with half str to dmg) at a cost of -2 on all attacks.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 06:35:03
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All of this is just rationale for supporting your Rule 0 rights:
If you don't want it, don't let it in.
That being said, how, or why, would a lizard man even bother to learn these arts? This is a thing that soft fleshy humanoids learn to compensate for a lack of scales, claws, and fangs. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 06:45:08
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@Zealot: The good news is that this guy only appears to know what he is talking about but clearly he ain't no powergamer.
First up, what level is his character and what levels are the party? If his character is 8th-level as you imply, I am assuming that that means he is a 5th-level monk after allowing for the 2 hit dice of a lizardfolk and the +1 level adjustment required for playing a lizardfolk?
Correct?
Here's my advice: let him have his flurry of misses. He's never going to hit. His BAB is +4 (humanoid +1, monk +3) so his flurry of misses is +3/+3 plus whatever bonus he gets from Str.
Frankly, I would give him the extra bite attack but at the standard -5 multiattack penalty. Heck, a monk that's lost three levels to a silly race choice is such an epic pile of suck I would give him the claws also.
But give him the bite (-5 attack roll penalty or -2 with Multiattack feat) and tell him that he has a choice of using claws as natural weapons or monk weapons but not both.
Never call someone who wants to play a monk - especially one who wants to waste monk levels on racial hit dice and level adjustments - a powergamer. While this clown is standing still and missing everyting in reach, the 8th-level druid is turning into a dire ape, blostering himself with a couple of spells, and teaching the fighters how to really fight.
But a monk? He will probably qualify for the title "Slayer of Rats and Kobolds" by the time he reaches epic levels....
Oh, and further proof he's an idiot? Instructing you to lower everyone else's wealth.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Lizardfolk can not use flurry only "When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows"
Lizardfolk also have at least +5 armor (natural) , it still is armor.
At least that would be a RAW that one could use. (snip)
Don't do that. Your player would be right in telling you that you had no grasp of the RAW. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Lizard folk superman?
