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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 06:20:41
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Apologies if my silly example was uncalled for. However, that was how it was starting to feel from my perspective.
Perhaps I'm out of touch with the general course of discussions here. I didn't think so, because I read the forums even if I don't have anything to contribute, but apparently I may be missing how threads progress.
While the participants here say they want only a few characters with connections, I felt those connections have consumed the greater part of the discussion. Others voiced how they don't feel the Realms needs Iconics (fair enough). Others offered how they feel "iconics" should be. Those ideas are all fine for NPCs, but the Realms can already fill volumes with NPCs along those lines.
So in all, the trend I noticed was "resistance", some foot dragging, or "we can do one better, but in this entirely different way" not related to the initial concept/topic, or "do we really need these things". I don't feel the term is wrong, especially when the concept is fairly simple and well established (all of 3E, all of PF, over a decade in total).
I thought there would be many more mentions along the lines of "there should be a Cormyrean War Wizard, or a Calishite elementalist, a priestess of Selune, a Wychlaren witch and her berzerker guard, an elven wizard from Everaska..." etc. Or someone would say "a character from Cormyr, Waterdeep, and Silverymoon are a must" etc.
I figured that's what people think of when asked what interesting characters you can play in the Realms? My mind usually does not go th route of "you can have this NPC in your background or you can be from this list of noble families." Again, people say they only want a few Iconics like this, but the weight of discussion sat on this topic and still hasn't budged much.
The setting being rich in lore is not really an explanation. I've seen similar discussions for other settings. They may not have the 25 year history of the Realms, but they had no shortage of equivalent NPCs of significance. The initial jump for a character concept was not towards a relation/reference to an NPC or make characters part of a noble house.
That was just an odd trend I noticed. I guess I experienced a bit of cognitive dissonance. I fail to understand the preponderance (imo) on who a character knows (or is related to) rather than who a character is. The Iconics are an example of what players can be/play. They aren't the end-all-be-all example, but a decent example.
Perhaps "iconic" is a loaded term for the Realms. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 14 Jan 2014 07:20:54 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 11:35:35
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As someone has put, I think (I can't find the exact comment), I feel it's a bit irrelevant to discuss whether there should be a Purple Dragon Knight, whether there should be a Calishite, or a Cormyrean, or a Durpari survivor. First because all those ideas would fit nicely, pretty much. Your line-up is great, and I'm sure you and I and other scribes could come up with another hundred great line-ups. And second, because we've never been told there were going to be FR iconics, so many people here started discussing what would be the concept of an FR iconic. I think there's no reason it needs to be the same thing done in 3e or PF.
To see where I'm coming from, Wooly originally suggested they might be like:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...)NPCs who don't grace a buttload of novels, who aren't high-level, just average adventurers... Use them as kind of a public face for the setting, instead of slapping the same two characters on every third product.(...)
I'm not saying you're wrong in the slightest for wanting to discuss which iconics we should have if they follow the PF example, that's totally fine. I'm just pointing out we're not really disagreeing that much. (When I say it sounds a bit irrelevant to me, I only mean to explain why I didn't immediately think of that, not that it can't be discussed - after all I discuss irrelevant stuff all the time  ) |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 14 Jan 2014 11:39:54 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 21:16:10
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Understood. Thanks for the clarification, Mapolq. You're right, no one is disagreeing much. We all want to see more and varied characters populating the Realms. Character has always been a strength of the setting and a strength of design from many like-minded Realms designers and authors.
As I said, it's a personal dissonance. I happened to notice a different focus for discussions regarding other settings.
In all likelihood, I feel Wizards will shy away from Iconics for 5E, at least in the form introduced in 3E and continued by Pathfinder. At this point, they would only appear to be following Paizo's lead (which is both hilarious and unfortunate seeing as Wizards originated the idea).
If that is the case, I feel there's a strong impetus to center the press and buzz on the novel characters as usual. What alternative options does Wizards have to highlight 'regular' characters for the setting?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11752 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 22:18:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I'll give Markus his Volarra. It's so crazy it might work. Actually, of all the known connections tossed back and forth, Volarra is the most feasible.
LOL - we've tempted you with the 'Dark Side' - FEEL THE POWER! 
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I could see the wizard trained at Blackstaff's academy, not Khelben's era, but the current Blackstaff. Or even someone from the Wands family. Or someone trained with the Wychlaran.
Now you get the idea - I NEVER said 'Khelben' - that would just be fans reading too much into it. I was actually thinking of that woman who replaced him.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Throwing a Harpell in there might get too zany. It's all about how much we're tossing into these. Wouldn't want the entire ragtag band to sport famous surnames or have the calling card of known heavy-weights.
A Harpell is SO tempting, but if we were to seriously consider that at all, then I would make it a non-magically gifted descendent - someone who left because the rest of the family looked at him like he was 'special' (if you catch my drift). Then make him an awesome fighter or something completely out-of-line with Harpels, and also dead-pan serious (so no sense of humor at all). This should be something revealed slowly, over time. At first he could just comment, "My family were a bunch of spell-hurling lunatics, so I left". Thats all we'd need (at first).
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Imagine a piece of art for the line-up of Realms Iconics done like The Sundering line-up. How fantastic would that be.
GREAT idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
No time travel shenanigans like with Thunderstorm.
Here's the thing - WHEN was Thundnerstorm from? Introducing him in D&Dnext/FR5e is only an anachronism in the RW, not in-setting. Same goes for Alissa.
Hear me out - I once made a comment (that got some pretty vitriolic feedback) that "Ed Greenwood is dead! WotC killed him!" I did that over on the WotC boards because I felt it was true - if the setting got moved forward a hundred years, then it is somewhere around 2100 AD on Earth. Now, assuming we don't keep his head alive in a jar, I truly doubt he'll be around then (sorry Ed - no offense). Even if we used the game compression ratio we used to have (which was never meant for this) - 1 year for every 3 RW - then we'd still be around 2040 AD. Ed could easily be around then... but I think the fantasy world he would be living in might not have anything to do with FR.
So I had an idea awhile back, inspired some stuff another poster said. What if the Realms that Elminster was telling Ed about was the 'Realms of old'? That the one Ed 'met' was really the one from the post-Spellplague era? Its not like Elminster hasn't relayed tons of Torillian history to us already - why can't 'the current era' (of 1e/2e/3e) actually have been part of that past? How do we even know he isn't an Elminster from even FURTHER in the future of The Realms (that we know)?
So what, you may ask, has any of this got to do with the iconics? Simple - if we have seen (here, in our time, or rather, 20 years ago) a picture or two of someone, but had no information on them, then those might have been 'foreshadowing' of things Elminster knew about already, but wasn't yet prepared to talk about. So long as there was no actual lore attached to it, we can go back and use any piece of artwork we want, moving forward. None of that stupid, "here are the panties the Simbul would have worn had she the inkling to ever wear panties" BS we got with the GhotR. I am talking about taking any of the great pieces of art we've seen before and attaching cool stories to them. For example, here is a group of orcs from the 3e MMIV. See that woman in the front there? She's called a 'Half-Orc Infiltrator'. Why can't we have her? Its just a pic, and I would expect new art based on it, but still, if we use it it doesn't mean we've broken continuity in anyway.
We know he's not "future Elminster" because of things that happened with those wizard's three articles (like the Simbul showing up, since she's been absorbed now). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 22:53:32
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Thunderstorm graced the cover of the legendary olde Grey Box, I consider him “canon“ as of AD&D(1E), circa 1356-1357DR in the Realms. Clearly a 1E Cavalier, duh ... although I must confess that I‘d thought he was a she for an embarassingly long while.
That being said, I wouldn‘t consider all those silly trading cards as canon. Some of them were painful and ridiculous. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 23:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We know he's not "future Elminster" because of things that happened with those wizard's three articles (like the Simbul showing up, since she's been absorbed now).
Really?
They fast-forwarded the timeline of Dragonlance as well (with much the same backlash... they never learn), and yet, Raistlin was still showing up, IIRC. I think he missed a meeting or two, but they just ignored the hiccup.
Ed doesn't age - would the Simbul have even know that was a future version? He could have kept tight-lipped about it (in that article with her), so as not to cause any time-paradoxes (of which I am sure he is aware - he does have another portal to Earth that leads back to the 1800's). What if thats the portal he always uses to get to earth, and then he just moves forward in time to Ed?
On the other hand, maybe that portal that was a hundred years behind is now right on time.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2014 23:38:27 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 00:24:01
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If the Realms focus is supposed to be on smaller more personal stories and the adventures of the players scale, maybe the iconics should mostly be low to mid level. I really like Mirt the Moneylender (not that he's exactly low level) for instance, mainly because he's just an old fat guy who's out there doing his best at times and really he's not the type you'd picture as a hero.
The Knights of Myth Drannor books were great in this because they were just kids going off to be heroes, but really didn't know what the heck they were doing, but they did it. And they didn't need to be god-touched, possess a super genius intellect, or be the most dextrous drow to walk Faerun in the last 5,000 years. Don't get me wrong, I love Elminster and Drizzt and think they should be included, but I think whatever iconics the Realms has, should relate to what players actually play.
Hope I got my point across, my brain is kinda mangled today for some reason. ;) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11752 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 00:51:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
We know he's not "future Elminster" because of things that happened with those wizard's three articles (like the Simbul showing up, since she's been absorbed now).
Really?
They fast-forwarded the timeline of Dragonlance as well (with much the same backlash... they never learn), and yet, Raistlin was still showing up, IIRC. I think he missed a meeting or two, but they just ignored the hiccup.
Ed doesn't age - would the Simbul have even know that was a future version? He could have kept tight-lipped about it (in that article with her), so as not to cause any time-paradoxes (of which I am sure he is aware - he does have another portal to Earth that leads back to the 1800's). What if thats the portal he always uses to get to earth, and then he just moves forward in time to Ed?
On the other hand, maybe that portal that was a hundred years behind is now right on time.
El's lifeline isn't severed, so he'd be doubling his lifeline if he did it that way, and he's not a chronomancer. Granted, we could say he is or that Mystra automatically severs her Chosen's lifelines, but I think that'd be stretching things even for good old Elminster. The only thing we can say with certainty is that Mystra has given him and other chosen some undefined powers to prevent Chronomancy magic in their presence (per the second edition Chronomancer book). I'd imagine that Mystra has some other more hidden spellcasters who are Chronomancer servants if she needs them (personally, IMO she'd want people more likely to think things through and be methodical/slow when it comes to time than Elminster and the Chosen who often fly by the seat of their pants). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 02:41:09
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Well, if that was the current Elminster we saw in the early products (and those articles), then it is a hundred years later on Earth and we couldn't possibly be getting new Realms stories NOW (since Elminster won't be appearing until about 2107 or so).
Since we have been getting new Realms stories - and we are about to get a whole 'nother edition - that means either the Elminster of 1e/2e/3e was from the future (4e/5e), or the one that visits Earth (and Ed) NOW is traveling back in time (on Earth) to talk to Ed in the past. Either way, the setting can't have fast-forwarded a century and Earth practically stood still (time-wise). We have chronomancy going on either way...
Unless, as I pointed-out, that portal that used to lead to the 1800's now leads to the 1900's, perhaps right around the time Elminster started visiting Ed (back in the 60's?)
Another thing - who's to know how this 'UN-Sundering' is going to affect the timeline? We have no idea what they are going to do. If certain things are 'reset' (like, that Abeir was never separated from Toril in the past), that would mean different folks could have been born a century later, or earlier. Continuity no longer matters - 4e already made sure of that. I'm not quite sure anyone is even bothering to try to stick to one at this point.
Suppose the Realms already had iconics? You know what would have happened to all of them? They'd be dead, <snip>
...somehow I went into a 3-paragraph rant just now... forget it. I'm really not seeing a point to having iconics anymore. They'll just screw them up (or kill them the next time they jump the timeline forward). Thats what they did the last time - kill all the regular characters and just leave the 'Mary-Sues' behind. 
This has become a setting for The Godborn, not regular RPG characters. You want to run an interesting, regular fantasy hero, then go play Pathfinder. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jan 2014 02:45:34 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 03:16:33
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quote:
This has become a setting for The Godborn, not regular RPG characters.
An accurate assessment, but their summits/interviews say they are trying to direct the emphasis back to 'regular adventurers' now. It could change in the future, but hopefully they make good on this promise and keep to it. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 04:13:10
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I know, I know...
I just got really frustrated for a moment there, when I realized the only characters we could port-over from the old setting were all the ones we needed to get rid of. We had (Paizo-style) 'iconics' - thousands of them.
They're just all dead now.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 04:21:31
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And I thought I was the grim one in this thread.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 13:18:41
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Well, I was so busy trying to convince you of OUR point, that I failed to see yours.
WE all became victims of the very thing people most-often complain about (with FR).
If they decide to go with Paizo-style iconics, then I would want Ed Greenwood to write them all up. And then no-one else - EVER - should be allowed to touch them. Only Ed knows how to give us new toys, without breaking any of the old ones. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 13:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They're just all dead now.
Oh shush with that.
For goodness sake there are so many everyday NPCs in the 4E Realms that would make great starts for modeling typical 1st level Realms characters after that I don't know how you come off thinking the art of NPC creation died with 4th Edition.
I would gladly welcome Iconics patterned after or related to NPCs like:
- Hargon Steelhond, retired Purple Dragon. He could easily be the father of a Fighter from Cormyr and probably knows a few secrets of Cormyr that he's passed on to his fighting sons and daughters.
- The Spellhound, who hunts Faerun-wide for the apprentices of Izmurn Raelane, and so makes a great background villain and impetus for a far-traveling adventuring mage PC.
- Tonthyn (of Zazesspur), a battlepriest of Tempus or Barrok Erlurender, Wandering warpriest of Tempus. Both names could easily be used by a PC Cleric, and either NPC could serve as a mentor or contact and placed anywhere in the Realms.
- Talessa "Bloodcoins" Tanshar of Waterdeep. Another cool PC name. I'd want to create a rogue from Waterdeep around this name and give her all sorts of frenemies (beholder crime lords, penniless nobles, wild lords and so on.
EDIT: these are all Realms NPCs created by Ed Greenwood and introduced in 4E. I've got about 550 more names if you're interested. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 15 Jan 2014 22:52:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 16:57:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If they decide to go with Paizo-style iconics, then I would want Ed Greenwood to write them all up. And then no-one else - EVER - should be allowed to touch them. Only Ed knows how to give us new toys, without breaking any of the old ones.
Oh, I'd not go that far. Elaine gave us Danilo, Arilyn, Matteo, Tzigone, and Liriel, without breaking anything. Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak gave us Alias and Dragonbait, and didn't break anything.
I've not read any recent Realms novels, but the avid following some of them have indicates to me that other authors are capable of creating interesting characters, without breaking anything.
I'm not adverse to Ed-only characters, I'm just saying I don't see a need to have it limited like that. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 19:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
EDIT: these are all Realms NPCs created by Ed Greenwood and introduced in 4E. I've got about 550 more names if you're interested.
So what? Have you bothered compiling such a list for the entirety of the 1e/2e/3e Realms? I guess not, and they far outnumber 550 and they can all be used together since they span less than 20 years, while your 550 are more than a hundred years removed.
So it's either thousands or 550, thus, turning your most eloquent argument back around, shush with that. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 20:56:21
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My impression of the OP topic on Iconics and a great deal of my own push on this thread was to propose FR/WotC/whoever promote "new blood" for the upcoming 5E rendition of the Realms.
Despite the changes to the setting for 4E meant to start with a clean slate, a small handful of the famous ('lightning rod') NPCs remained front and center for the Realms. Nothing against them, but the setting has always been of a more varied scope than could be summed up with a few novel characters.
And this is not to denigrate the skill or worth of the novel authors. To write novels to create and maintain a popular franchise on the level of the Realms is no easy feat. Those same authors have also given us many more regular characters, so their contribution is not exclusive to the superstar characters.
Whether 4E has hundreds of new NPCs or if the old Realms had thousands is irrelevant if they are not given an equal or comparable spotlight to the epic-level and special-powered ('snowflake') folk. The Realms is a big setting, it can support both, it needs both, but the 'press' has to treat each with some evenness.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If they decide to go with Paizo-style iconics, then I would want Ed Greenwood to write them all up. And then no-one else - EVER - should be allowed to touch them. Only Ed knows how to give us new toys, without breaking any of the old ones.
Oh, I'd not go that far. Elaine gave us Danilo, Arilyn, Matteo, Tzigone, and Liriel, without breaking anything. Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak gave us Alias and Dragonbait, and didn't break anything.
I've not read any recent Realms novels, but the avid following some of them have indicates to me that other authors are capable of creating interesting characters, without breaking anything.
I'm not adverse to Ed-only characters, I'm just saying I don't see a need to have it limited like that.
"So much this" for Wooly's post. Ed is great, but even he has gone on record to give credit where credit is due to the many creatives who have helped build the Realms we know and love. They've already proven they can create new characters for the Realms not of the epic mold. The game designers do it all the time. Even the Sundering series authors have. Note most of them feature new/newer characters without apparent Realms-shattering or high-level power.
Imagine each of the Realms Iconics written by a different Realms author. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 20:57:29
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Demzer, don't be a jerk. The NPCs introduced in 4E are just as much a part of the setting as anything that came before, and can just as easily be used by any DM with half a brain who isn't willing to be straight jacketed by canon, as well as by game designer looking to create Iconics and players looking for inspiration when building their own characters.
There is no "either/or" here beyond the persistent need of some scribes to hold tight to divisive attitudes about what does and doesn't count as part of the Realms. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 22:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Demzer, don't be a jerk. The NPCs introduced in 4E are just as much a part of the setting as anything that came before, and can just as easily be used by any DM with half a brain who isn't willing to be straight jacketed by canon, as well as by game designer looking to create Iconics and players looking for inspiration when building their own characters.
There is no "either/or" here beyond the persistent need of some scribes to hold tight to divisive attitudes about what does and doesn't count as part of the Realms.
And NPCs of previous eras are as much part of the setting as those of 4e (and in some cases, way more worthy*) so telling someone that he needs to "shush" about the disappearance of thousands of NPCs because we have 550 or whatever now is frankly stupid.
Also it lessens the present discussion because for the 5e/next iconics to be really heralds of a new beginning of the setting it's almost required that they be new faces on the block (with connections to the past if the authors/designers feel like it but new faces nonetheless).
* any 4e calishite genasi is a dump taken directly in the face of all the region history, any spellscarred freak is an old-style wild talent NPC with the Spellplague baggage of dispute tied to his/her shoulders, any Zehir worshipper is a fake Talontar, Setite or Cyricist |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 22:41:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
And NPCs of previous eras are as much part of the setting as those of 4e..
Who the $^(# said they weren't?
And why the hell are you suggesting they disappeared if they're still part of the setting?
Look, if you think my pointing out that 4E NPCs are part of the greater Realms is somehow denigrating earlier NPCs, you're mistaken.
If you think that my pointing out that 4E NPCs are part of the greater Realms constitutes an argument that one era is better than the other, or is edition warring, you are mistaken.
What I am arguing is for inclusiveness (i.e., there are ---->>>>FOUR EDITIONS<<<<---- worth of NPCs in the Realms, not "thousands" plus a little more), and that it is not true that there are no longer any "Paizo-style" NPCs in the Realms because there is no dearth of 4E era NPCs from which a game designer (or gamer) could find inspiration from when considering how to create Iconics, and those NPCs are true, down to earth Realms-type NPCs from all over the Realms, which--if we're talking about Iconics--is just what's needed.
So please, stop arguing with me and stop edition warring.
If you have anything else to say, PM me directly or take it up with the moderators. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 15 Jan 2014 22:45:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 23:06:58
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Crap. I didn't mean to turn this into another edition-wars thread (which is OVER, BTW).
Apologies to both of you - "live and let live", and all that fluffy stuff.
My rant-that-wasn't-a-rant was more based on something I am working on then anything in this thread. A current map has me reading 4e material for research-purposes... and my eye always starts to twitch when I go there. I should just make a new rule for myself: anytime I read ANYTHING set in 4e, don't post on Candlekeep for at least two days.
YES, I want to see Paizo-style iconics. NO, I don't think they should be ANY of the old characters. Yes, I think a couple of connections to the past would be fun. NO, I do not truly think Ed is the only guy capable of creating interesting, one-off characters... but he IS the master at it. All (good) writers create interesting characters... but how many of them can do that in just one or two sentences? Ed does that nearly every single time he answers one of our questions. The OGB was full of them.
One last thing - if they truly mean 'support for all eras', then why couldn't a few iconics be from other eras? Or are we once-again assuming they are just blowing smoke up our posteriors? (And one final YES, I AM still pushing for Thunderstorm and Alissa, because it doesn't get much more FR iconic then those two). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 00:03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
NO, I do not truly think Ed is the only guy capable of creating interesting, one-off characters... but he IS the master at it. All (good) writers create interesting characters... but how many of them can do that in just one or two sentences? Ed does that nearly every single time he answers one of our questions. The OGB was full of them.
To be a bit facetious (and to play devil's advocate). Ed's actually quite generous with his time and thus his sentences. He often graces us with many more than one or two sentences worth on an NPC (which is a bonus). Also, Ed's sentences verge on run-on length, but he makes it work. Put him on a strict word count (like some of his novels) and one may notice a perceivable drop in vividness and idea transmission clarity.
Granted, Ed's a master, but I wouldn't say his level of creativity is entirely unreachable by many other game designers, history with the Forgotten Realms or otherwise.
Also, the OGB NPCs are not without criticism (and I'm not talking about the famous or pre-famous ones). A thread on rpg.net did a line-by-line reading of the OGB and noted a bunch of NPCs were just sort of there. Not interesting there, just random forgettable person there. They didn't have any plot or setting significance or any notable connection to the regions they were in. They didn't even have interesting traits, at least not anything than a competent, veteran DM couldn't come up with on the fly or possibly even from a random generator.
Doesn't mean his good or even mediocre NPCs aren't better than most, but Ed has his hits and misses, he just stacks the misses between an overwhelming amount of good stuff. I would stop short of constantly lifting him onto a pedestal (which is a bit groupie-ish). He's good, he's great, he's the best, just not infallible.
Personally, I found his Returned Abeir kind of boring compared to most of his regular Wizards site articles.
Not saying I could do better. Not going to name names of professional designers I think can keep up. It's not a contest. I just don't like shorting other designers when we've seen the brilliance they've come up with, for the Realms and other places.
Also, Ed has a very strong voice (which I happen to like) in much of his writing. Depending on one's perception and tolerance for his particular "word feel" it can seem grating and superfluous. Just saying, different folk, different strokes.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One last thing - if they truly mean 'support for all eras', then why couldn't a few iconics be from other eras? Or are we once-again assuming they are just blowing smoke up our posteriors? (And one final YES, I AM still pushing for Thunderstorm and Alissa, because it doesn't get much more FR iconic then those two).
There's hints (from what designers, novelist, and freelancers have mentioned) they're going to create a 5E Realms that is a close 'facsimile' (not meant in a negative way) of the older edition Realms. It will technically be 5E Realms (and thus technically 4E Realms, being post-4E was not negotiable), but will have enough in parallel with the 1E/2E/3E Realms that the material produced for 5E can easily slot in. The 5E Realms will "feel" like the older Realms. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 08:57:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
What I am arguing is for inclusiveness (i.e., there are ---->>>>FOUR EDITIONS<<<<---- worth of NPCs in the Realms, not "thousands" plus a little more), and that it is not true that there are no longer any "Paizo-style" NPCs in the Realms because there is no dearth of 4E era NPCs from which a game designer (or gamer) could find inspiration from when considering how to create Iconics, and those NPCs are true, down to earth Realms-type NPCs from all over the Realms, which--if we're talking about Iconics--is just what's needed.
So please, stop arguing with me and stop edition warring.
You're NOT arguing for inclusiveness when you tell someone to shut up about 1e/2e/3e NPCs and YOU are shooting first on the edition wars front when you show off your mathematical skillz by counting the 4e NPCs while dishonestly leaving out any count of other eras NPCs.
Telling someone to shut up about other eras NPCs while at the same time saying "see we have these shinies now" is not arguing for inclusiveness.
Furthermore, in the frame of the current topic discussion the return of any named NPC from the 1e/2e/3e era is impossible for all those with less than 150 years lifespans (considering 3e stole potions of longevity from the setting) unless we go the "XXXX the Yth of his/her name" route or we pull other "blue-fire items"-maneuvers. Thus saying "crap they're all dead now" is inherent to this discussion and jumping up at who says that with "shut up we got these now" is impolite, uncalled for and sparks the edition wars you seem so bent on avoiding.
You don't want people talking about the failings of 4th edition (or any other edition)? Then don't jump into any discussion guns-blazing to white-knight Realmslore that, if true to its name (like the Forging the Realms articles, the Backdrops and the Eyes on the Realms to name a few for 4e), is perfectly able to stand on its own.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
If you have anything else to say, PM me directly or take it up with the moderators.
I'll move to PMs at the Original Poster discretion (and coincidentally he is also a moderator), i'll not bother the moderators with petty discussions such as this one. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 10:02:59
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| Markus already apologized and I refuse to argue with your imagination. Stop cluttering the thread with more off topic BS. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 14:34:26
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AGREED.
Jeremy and I are what one might term 'frenemies'. We are both strong-willed, but are also both intelligent creative people who respect each other for that. If we knew each other RW, we'd probably get along like family (best buds one minute, hating on each other the next). Not sure if he feels the same exact way, but I'd like to think so.
And once again, thats built upon a mutual respect. I appreciate you wanting to 'defend my honor', Demzer, but it is unwarranted - I took no offense to JG's comments. In fact, I appreciate it when he calls me to task (he keeps my jerk-factor in check... sometimes). I think you just may have taken the 'shushing' the wrong way (I didn't take it as him dismissing what I said, but rather, more of a "stop the pity-party and lets move onto something more productive" kind of way).
And he was right - crying over what we lost isn't going to help anything at this point. We have to stay on-focus. If the designers get the wrong message, we could end up with another "chicken without a head" setting. We focus, THEY focus - its that simple. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 13:00:37 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 22:46:50
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| Fat old Mirt the Moneylender might be more iconic than Thunderstorm. And poor Manshoon has been around in each rules/Realms edition, getting bigger and badder and weirder and less likeable each time he‘s given a stat writeup. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 23:13:59
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Old Wolf is alive and well, retired in Cormyr.
and oh yeah, he is an iconic character in the realms |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 02:23:42
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If we head into that territory, some parts of the Realms were incorporated from products published before the grey box. Then technically some characters from the Bloodstone Lands and possibly Wulgreth and Karsus are "iconic" in that light.
At some point maybe it would just be easier to let people play as legendary or divine beings (the deities, the Chosen, the likes of Karsus, demon lords, etc.)
Another thought, if we can't extract the Realms from the Old and Mighty characters, why don't we de-age them. They'll be like a version of Young Justice or Teen Titans.
We'll call them Young Icons.
Kid Drizzt: "But Ma, I dun wanna stab the rival houses..." "I'm not gonna wear spiders, that's for girls. Give it to Vierna."
El, "just call me El", the Middle-Aged (Crisis) Sage: "See this +5 Longsword, I used to be a fighter, nearly undefeated with the Athalantar Stags against our rivals the Magelords for three years. That is until they made that controversial play using forbidden magic. At least my record is still unbroken."
Simbul, the Teenage Witch-Queen: "::sigh:: Life is like so hard, what with maintaining my studies with my witchy Rashemi aunts, running my own country, and, OMM*, keeping that nosy Szassy Tam from causing trouble in the neighborhood. He's always peeking over the hedge keeping tabs on us." (*OMM: Oh My Mystra. Or Mother. For those who are not fluent in vale vernacular Aglarondan.)
Manchildshoon: "... and after world domination, then they will realize my great genius. Oh, the latest issue of Stasis Clone Collectors Magazine came in, I'll be in my chambers. I have important affairs to attend to."
Fzoul "The Fizz" Chembryl, elder brother of the Beta Nu Epsilon fraternity: "Line up, BaNE-wannabe maggots! Bow before your lord and master, pledgies! First challenge is the trial of Jhuild Jello Shots. First wimp who pukes runs the beholder gauntlet."
Lil' Vangey: "When I gwo up, I wanna be the Pwurpul Dwagon!"
And in case it's not clear. I keed, I keed. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 13:11:39
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That would be....... weird. 
But kinda cool, as well. Too bad there is no way of knowing how that would be received ahead of time. Because of their agelessness, you couldn't even pin-down a canon year all the 'younglings' could come from (so, in effect, they'd be from their own continuity... which could be very damaging... or not).
As for Mirt, I've never liked him. Not sure why... the character seems fine enough, and I realize just about everyone else likes him. You would think he would resonate with me. On the other hand - retired warrior grown old and fat... and grumpy - might resonate TOO much, and thats why I'd rather not be faced with him. Kinda like the FR version of me, with just a dash of Woody Allen (but not in a good way).
'Young Mirt' could work, but only if young versions of all the iconics would work, and there's just no way of knowing that ahead of time. Multiple continuities is what broke it for me with comics, so IMHO I think that might be a VERY bad idea. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Idea: 5E/Next Iconics
