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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 13:51:40
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Methinks DW was being facetious again.  As for Mirt being like Woody Allen, I agree, they both seemed to have a thing for young ladies.  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 15:14:15
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Well, if anyone here has the inclination and talent, I'd love to see the 'FR Babies'... but that would be unofficial, and just for S&G.
I've seen a lot of that type of thing on DeaviantART - fans 're-imagining' characters in other formats, and its kinda cool, so long as folks realize its just fanart. NO Hentai/Manga stuff, though. I realize Elminster probably WOULD sleep with something with tentacles... but I'd rather NOT know about it, thank you very much.
I also wouldn't mind seeing our FR iconics re-drawn in other genres; Scify, Steampunk (that would be REALLY cool), Horror, etc. I have to wonder why Paizo hasn't thought of that? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 15:14:39 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 16:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I realize Elminster probably WOULD sleep with something with tentacles... but I'd rather NOT know about it, thank you very much.
Isn't it wrote somewhere that Manshoon tried to mate with beholders? I think that's as close as we can get ...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also wouldn't mind seeing our FR iconics re-drawn in other genres; Scify, Steampunk (that would be REALLY cool), Horror, etc. I have to wonder why Paizo hasn't thought of that?
Gondegal's armors in GHotR were really cool and something like what you're asking for. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 17:35:05
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LOL - I find "Gondegal's armor" one of the most offensive pics in a book full of offensive pics (all recycled from other sources). Not that the art is bad - I just find the captions highly insulting. When you know where the original illustration is from, you feel like responding to those captions, "You are just so full of s....."
Thus, Gondegal did NOT actually wear any of that armor. That was just someone being both lazy and cheap.
"This is what Elminster would look like if he was a three year old elven lass". 
Seriously... why not just put, "Our fans are all morons and this is just some random picture I stuck here", because THAT is what it amounted to. It was a slap-in-the-face, and completely demonstrates the EXACT ATTITUDE of everyone working there at the time. I personally would have preferred NO illustrations and more lore. What we got was recycled filler . Not knocking the GHotR itself - I love Brian's original. I just hate what WotC turned it into. Both a mockery and a death-knell.
Geeze... and I haven't even read any 4e material (yet) today, and my dander is already up. I think I need more coffee (or less coffee... not sure). 
On a completely unrelated note (and perhaps even further form the topic), you just made me think of something with your Manshoon comment (which I was unaware of - you wouldn't happen to remember the source, would you?). Elminster will 'mate' with just about anything that can't outrun him. Now you are telling me Manshoon is of much the same mind. Hmmmmmmm... could they somehow be related? Recent questions in Ed's thread ask about his descendents, but I would have never pegged Manshoon as one.... until now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 17:38:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 17:54:40
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Thinking more on my last reply (and sorry for the micro-rant - some things just get under my skin more then others - 'bad' art being one of them), my mind has run in strange direction.
Earlier (in this thread) we talked about a possible (female) descendent of Manshoon. I also mentioned that as much as I like that character-concept, I wouldn't want that as an iconic. But now going with dark Wizard's earlier (facetious?) comment about an Azoun/Yamun descendent - how about a girl who is the child of Manshoon's son and a 'daughter of Elminster' (a fairly large club, I hear)?
She'd have two 'awesome' grandpas! 
Now, if the mother is also Narnra (from Elminster's Daughter, where else?), that would make her also one-quarter dragon. Then maybe her pappa could be one of those Manshoon-Beholder crossbreeds, or maybe the offspring of Manshhoon and that girl-Blackstaff that came after Khelben. Yeah... thats the way to make her all epic. She'd also somehow have to be Drizzt's niece, and maybe hangout with Everis Cale's sister-in-law's cousin's mailman.
We'll name her Maeree Szû, the ultimate FR iconic.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 17:56:41 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 17:56:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL - I find "Gondegal's armor" one of the most offensive pics in a book full of offensive pics (all recycled from other sources).
DOH!
Oh well i don't know where those came from, the one with the spikes is meh, the other is classical full plate, it's the gearwheels looking one that won me.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On a completely unrelated note (and perhaps even further form the topic), you just made me think of something with your Manshoon comment (which I was unaware of - you wouldn't happen to remember the source, would you?). Elminster will 'mate' with just about anything that can't outrun him. Now you are telling me Manshoon is of much the same mind. Hmmmmmmm... could they somehow be related? Recent questions in Ed's thread ask about his descendents, but I would have never pegged Manshoon as one.... until now.
Nope sorry, i think i read it somewhere here at Candlekeep during my mad rush through all the Ed threads of the past but that's just because i spent a lot of time on those. Oh and it wasn't Ed or THO, it was someone asking if what they got from the description was true (something like "is Manshoon here really doing what i think he's doing, mating with beholders?" and i think the answer was yes, but it's all foggy and i can be mistaken). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11814 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 18:59:18
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| lol, I don't think mating with anything they see is a trait specific to Elminster. Lord help us if Captain Kirk ever came to Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 19:04:03
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Oh, I agree that the armor looked cool, and it was great in its original context (I believe it was in an equipment guide), but it just plain silly used at it was. I did love that 'gears' armor though, very un-Realmsian as it was.
Part of the problem with WotC sourcebooks is that people responsible for final production are not very FR-savy. Most of them probably aren't even gamers- they are layout people working at a job, 9-5. When we no longer had a 'Realms traffic-cop', it became the job of the (chief) editor, but when that editor isn't as knowledgeable of FR lore as many of the fans are, how are they supposed to even catch continuity problems?
I can't blame writers for whats in them - I have three different sources in pre-production format, written by three different FR authors. There is no art. I was surprised, actually, when I saw the first one. Even the sidebars are written within the normal text (but with directions that it is a sidebar). They put in art-orders, but don't see the final product until the rest of us do. This is why the mistakes never get caught - the only people seeing that 'gold' (pre-production) copy are all publishing-types, and not people who understand the lore or the illustrations. Thats why we got a picture of a warforged for a caption talking about a dragon - the people placing the art have no idea what it is they are working on, only how to format it properly. So if someone accidentally mis-writes the number of an .img file, then we get bad mistakes. You would think it would be someone's job to give it all a final read-through and okay, but if it is, then that person isn't/wasn't doing a very good job at all.
Heres the thing (getting back to the topic at hand) - we have seen some of the FR/D&D 5e concept art. It was fine. But, do any of the artists know a thing about The Forgotten Realms? Don't you think that would help? How about the guys ordering that art? How many FR novels did they write? or did they just write Eberron novels... in which case isn't that art they are approving/ordering gonna look more like Eberron then FR?
And thats the problem with D&D today. At one time, everyone working on it were fans of the game, and fans of THE setting. Now its 'just a job'. You know how you can tell the difference between the real fans and the guys just going through the motions? Cream always rises to the top. Why is Paul Kemp such a great FR writer? Because he is an FR fan - you can tell by everything he writes (and I am just using him as an example - if you are another author, do not take offense if I didn't use you; I just happen to think Paul is the newest member of that club of 'elites' who write for FR).
As a rule of thumb, many authors write in many 'shared world' settings. Usually, they become famous for one particular one (RAS/Drizzt). The one they become known for is the one they feel a connection with. Just sayin'. In the rare cases where an author is known for more then one body of work, well then, now we have an author who is a fan of all those settings he writes in (at least, the ones he has gotten recognition for).
All IMO, of course. Your mileage may vary. This may have seemed quite a bit off-topic, but I wanted to get the point across that its about caring. When you care about something you are working on, it shows in your work. The fans can tell. Why do you think we hang on Ed's every word? He isn't just its creator - The Realms is his child. He loves it, and nurtures it; he cares for it when it is ill, and he promotes it when it is strong. When you are just approving a piece of artwork because, "it looks like a dwarf", then you aren't really putting your all into it. Thats all I wanted to say. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 19:10:33 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 19:42:11
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I have to wonder why Paizo hasn't thought of that?
Shhhh, don't give them any ideas...we need WotC staff to 'get' this stuff. 
And...Demzer is right, I forget the exact details, but someone figured out that Manshoon was taking beholder form and siring offspring with them. Ed confirmed it when asked. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 19:47:17
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Beholders mate? 
I DON'T even want to think about THAT. 
I had just assumed he was doing something 'magical', using his own DNA and splicing-it in. I have to re-read some of the old beholder lore - I have forgotten much about them.
Maybe thats why he wears the helmet; he isn't really Manshoon, he is one of Manshoon's offspring. He just doesn't want anyone to see his eye-stalks.
Locker-Room D&D humor: "is that your eyestalk, or are you just happy to see me?"
Thats it... no more coffee for me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 20:17:04
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quote:
Locker-Room D&D humor: "is that your eyestalk, or are you just happy to see me?"
Nope, just looking at your assets! You know what they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 22:11:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
lol, I don't think mating with anything they see is a trait specific to Elminster. Lord help us if Captain Kirk ever came to Toril.
Those orc fathers better lock their daughters in. They're green after all.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, if anyone here has the inclination and talent, I'd love to see the 'FR Babies'... but that would be unofficial, and just for S&G.
I've seen a lot of that type of thing on DeaviantART - fans 're-imagining' characters in other formats, and its kinda cool, so long as folks realize its just fanart. NO Hentai/Manga stuff, though. I realize Elminster probably WOULD sleep with something with tentacles... but I'd rather NOT know about it, thank you very much.
I also wouldn't mind seeing our FR iconics re-drawn in other genres; Scify, Steampunk (that would be REALLY cool), Horror, etc. I have to wonder why Paizo hasn't thought of that?
I think we've seen some pieces like that, both serious and for S&G, they were even on a Christmas card dressed in modern-day tacky winter holiday sweaters.
Some of the Golarion kingdoms and regions are catered towards a particular genre (epic fantasy, gritty sword & sorcery, intrigue, horror, sci-fantasy, planetary romance) and we see them go native.
The exclusive edition covers of the comics often have fourth-wall breaking moments like movie references involving the Iconics, in particular with the Paizo goblins (who have reach their own iconic status). They look like Gremlins (the 80s movie franchise) and their appearance is unlike goblins in most other fantasy sources. Goes to show, you don't have to be original, but you do have to "own it".
By this point the amount of art featuring several of the Paizo Iconics (about half of them far overshoot the others in prevalence) outnumbers even the likes of Elminster and maybe Drizzt (notably the Drow is hard to beat because he's consistently a bestseller and used to promote anything Realms if marketing has the chance).
The Iconics are more "expendable" so we see them in more odd situations and sometimes weird outfits/appearances/conditions (they "take one for the team" in a marketing or cover genre gimmick) where as the FR novel characters have their novel-based persona and novel-cool aura active. One is not better than the other, but each brings a different perspective to the property/franchise.
It's why I've been talking about 3E/Paizo style Iconics this whole time. The Realms iconic novel characters provides only one angle to view the setting. A set of relatively mundane, back-to-basics Iconics may bring something else to the table.
One anecdote: Frog God Game's Rappan Athuk megadungeon was updated to Pathfinder a year or two ago. As part of that, FGG has a digital obituary wall for player characters slain in the notoriously deadly old-school dungeon. I noticed a few of the characters were Paizo Iconics (such as Valeros, Paizo's Iconic fighter), because people used the Iconics as pre-generated characters.
This may seem insignificant, but look at it this way. The name "Valeros" is now in the player's head (and on another company's website, and they have their own game setting, the Lost Lands). The player may not care who Valeros is, he may never look at gaming materials again, but maybe someday down the line he encounters the name and decides to look up the name. What would come up in the search, stuff on the Iconics, the Golarion setting, the Pathfinder system (or whatever edition they're up to years from now).
Likewise, say a DM runs Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle or Murder in Baldur's Gate for a new group, but he uses Pathfinder rules instead and hands each player the character sheet of an Iconic complete with art. They will remember playing through the Realms as Valeros, Seoni, Merisiel, and Kyra. Not as Realms characters. That may not matter to them at the moment, but later on, if they follow gaming, they may find out those characters belong to a setting called Golarion. They look it up and down the rabbit hole they go.
Comparably fewer people will play as Drizzt and Elminster in Golarion.
Disposable pre-gens don't stick around with enough searchable context to matter. I started playing D&D with the 2E fast-play mini-module. It had pregens created from a piece of TSR stock art (probably the cover for something else). If I mention Darkblade, Elanna, Niles, and Thaddeus, I'm not sure many people will know who I'm talking about (the generic or common real life names don't help). Also since the art is recycled, I may have a hard time searching for more information as the character art may go under different names.
The Iconics for a game system (and the setting associated with it) are like graffiti tags, big bold searchable ones (sometimes used to vandalize other settings and the competition).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2014 : 18:32:16
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Thats a really interesting view of things - good points, all.
Drizzt is a notable exception - I have seen tons of Drizzt clones in games like WoW, and half the time the player doesn't even know much about the character. Its just one of those internet/VG phenomenas now. But like you said, people see enough of these 'Drizzts' running around, enough of them will Google 'Drizzt' and learn abut FR, and possibly become fans.
I've never seen an 'Elminster' in another game, though, or any other FR character for that matter.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 01:21:38
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only times I've seen Elminster in a game he was done as a cameo.
games of note I've played concerning Elminster:
Baldur's GAte
Baldur's gate II
Pool of Sheet: Ruins of Myth Drannor( really would have been a good game if it was allowed to be a 2e game instead of a 2e/3e hybrid.....)
if there are others I haven't played it |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 04:42:35
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| I don't think the Drizzt-clones are of Drizzt exactly anymore. The Drow as a whole have become a significant subculture of fantasy. Drizzt may have lead the popularization of Drow, but they've been adapted into so many different games and worlds they've taken a life of their own now. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 12:20:04
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Very good point, Dark Wizard. I suppose one set of iconics would do the job better (if D&D Next and FR are linked very strongly, at least). So it would also be sensible to make them fit the adventuring party "ideal". But I still think they might be fine as real NPCs. To borrow from one of my examples, take Miklos Selkirk. He was given a statblock, backstory and art, but never got developed beyond that (I think, but take it just as an example). So if he was an iconic, I could see him gracing the pages of many sourcebooks in appropriate situations that stay true to the NPC, and he'd still be able to be used as a ready-to-play character in a pinch - meaning, the DM might have to stretch the story a bit then, but it won't really matter. So the only "out-of-context" role they might play is as a player character, but he's undoubtedly an NPC, just a fairly static one. And if the designers want to include some art of him as an undead monster, or dying, or as one of Santa's elves, then just make clear it's meant to be funny or expositive, and not part of the character's canon story. I mean, if they make a Christmas special line up with Realms NPCs in Earth festive dress we won't think it's meant to be FR canon, right? And if there's room for doubt, state it.
I just propose that because the PF iconics, now that you've explained their role better, seem to me to be in a limbo. As you said they're not NPCs, and they're not PCs. Logically, either some character is a player character, or it's not a player character at a given point, so what I'm saying is this approach takes immersion out. If you think about it, they "don't fit", they remind you it's "just a game". Now, that's not something a first-time player will mind, I grant you that. But I imagine it would be fun when the player starts gaming and reading more, and he discovers that swashbuckling nobleman he played as for a little one-shot is integrated into the Realms, as is everyone else. He might run into him as an NPC later, when he's playing with his, now original, player character. The NPC won't necessarily have any memories of what happened when the player "was him", as that was just an "what-if" adventure. But if the DM thinks it's appropriate, he might also have these memories, and the mini-adventure played before can be then integrated into his Realms in a grander way. Basically, the DM has wriggle room to make him more generic or less. I guess what I'm saying is don't shove the generic concept into our throat, instead give us tools to play with.
Also, Markus' point about Drizzt is pretty much that. The "drow guy" is now a trope in itself, but more often than others, his name is Drizzt. So that makes people google "Drizzt" and find out about the character who started this whole "drow guy" thing, and then about the world he lives in, the Realms.
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 19 Jan 2014 12:25:39 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 15:00:40
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to me its only a Drizzt Clone if it is a Drow Character and uses either Drizzt or Dourden in the character's name.....
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 00:57:54
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Mapolq, the Pathfinder Iconics could be used as regular NPCs and they have setting appropriate backgrounds, personalities, and motivations (about a page or two). There is nothing 'generic' about them. Their details are just relatively terse compared to most novel characters, especially series novel characters (who may require many pages just to summarize their life and adventures adequately). So really your preferences are spot on as to what the Iconics offer.
Miklos Selkirk is a comparable example, except even he has a few notes about his experience (he's retired) and status (family connections, leader of his own mercenary company) in the world. The character as written in the FRCS is approaching this from the back-end of this, a character done with adventuring, has his success, and is a character players can meet.
Miklos would be a potential Iconic if he were just starting out on his adventures, estranged from his merchant noble connections, and before he started his mercenary company. The Iconics approaches characters from the front-end perspective, those who players can play.
There's little actually differentiating a normal 'green' adventurer NPC from an Iconic, other than the designation of Iconic, which is a meta-game concept. What it does is ensure Iconics are featured in a consistent manner (ex: in the art) as game/setting representatives, aren't picked up by novel authors as their primary characters (or even secondary AFAIK), and they're used as default pre-gen characters.
Note, no one in the game setting refers to the Iconics as 'Iconics' (or even 'iconic'). No one goes, "Look there goes the iconic Valeros and Seoni, they're Iconics." They would logically be treated as normal characters (ex: as befitting their status, reputations, and connections) which is to say as freelancing adventurers. There is no disruption of immersion.
It's not like the Realms is devoid of such characters, it's that the marketing chooses to use the likes of novel characters such as Elminster, Drizzt, the Seven Sisters, Erevis Cale, etc. as the primary 'face' of the setting. Now they don't appear on sourcebook covers all that often, but neither are their identifiable alternative faces featuring PC-level type characters (there are generic parties on some of the covers, or random persons/archetypes). Neither method is better, but the point I took from the OP was to strive for a balance between character portrayals in the setting, and fostering an alternative view (perhaps a game-oriented perspective vs a novel oriented perspective) of the setting.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 06:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Neither method is better, but the point I took from the OP was to strive for a balance between character portrayals in the setting, and fostering an alternative view (perhaps a game-oriented perspective vs a novel oriented perspective) of the setting.
It's more a thing of wanting new faces on source material, and wanting to put more effort into showcasing that you don't have to be a heavy-hitter to adventure in the Realms.
There is already the flawed perception that there is nothing for lower-level PCs to do, and slapping The Magic Death Star* and Mr. Cuisinart on every other cover certainly does not help that perception...
It also leaves the perception that the Realms is all about those guys, and with (as I said earlier) 23 novels, 17 short stories, 5 video games, 2 comic titles, and a Lego set dedicated to each of them, that's a daunting amount of material to wade thru.
Going with a new batch of faces, ones that will never be in novels or main characters in adventures, helps get around all that. Put their stories online and you've got something to whet someone's appetite and get them looking for more. Keep them low to mid-level, and list some of their (non-RSE!) deeds, and you've got things happening in the setting. Plus, you're showing that the little guys can make a difference and that they don't need to call down an arcane orbital barrage or go Ginsu on someone to make that difference.
I guess the simplest way of saying it is that I want to get away from the NPC power creep that's been going on for years. Look at Elminster in Spellfire: he didn't do a huge amount beyond dispensing wisdom and aiming people in the right direction. Contrast that with later material -- in the Return of the Archwizards books, as I recall, special effort had to be made simply to get him out of the way. He was a dangerous threat to be countered, an impediment to the plans of some seriously powerful folks.
He went from being the guy in the cave who says "it's dangerous to go alone!" and gives Link his first sword, to being the guy that actually steps in and finishes Ganon off before rushing off to deal with the real threats to all of Hyrule.
It's not the fault of the character or the author, it's the way TSR and later WotC decided to focus on him. I want to shift that focus.
*No disrespect to the characters, obviously.
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 00:20:11
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Nice analogy with the Zelda example.
The runaway escalation is also troublesome because the stats for the NPCs get revamped upwards for every edition. Or there's some weird conversion issues that get in the way presenting a coherent setting modeled on one system.
After following the Realms for years, I've found my sense of what levels an NPC should be to be skewed compared to the baseline in most other settings.
In most settings high-powered characters are around level 20 (major movers and shakers), for the Realms high-power is around 30 (also major movers and shakers). Adjust the iconic NPCs back down closer to 20 and we'll see why the rest of the setting (designed to the level 30 standard) seems so out of whack to people used to playing in other settings. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 02:37:47
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| I don't see the level 30 NPCs as a problem, they just need to take a back seat to other NPCs and the PCs in campaigns. To me, having such high-level NPCs in the world ensure that PCs are always aware that there are bigger fish to keep them in check (unless a DM wants to remove/ignore that facet of their existence). Honestly, I don't see why anyone concerns themselves with such matters. What goes on at your table stays at your table, use what you want and ignore/change the rest. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 05:12:57
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The NPCs (who happen to be level 30) aren't a problem, but I feel the actual level number is the problem. This skews the entire baseline of Realms NPCs up a few levels.
One could argue the stats aren't far from where Ed has them, but remember he's playing a drastically different edition from any of the three most recent editions of D&D. The customization and abilities have increases with each edition (3E and 4E at least). Where as higher levels were one of the few way to introduce special extraordinary skills in older editions, newer editions have many other methods (feats, templates, prestige classes, PF's Mythic rules, 4E's NPCs as monsters, etc.).
There's no lack of NPCs for other settings of the caliber of the high-level Realms NPCs, at least from a lore-based perspective, but they didn't need to push all of them towards level 30 to transcribe them into the mechanics.
This is only one of the issues with the NPCs anyway. As pointed out in posts above, some of the NPCs went from wise old sage (Gandalf or old Obi Wan types) to special agent (Sean Connery as Double-Oh-Minster). It's fun for sure, but it also changes the dynamic of the setting and I don't feel that's ever been accounted for. It's a combination of factors. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 14:29:39
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I think the level creep was meant to be a 'natural' increase over time (each edition having pushed the timeline forward a bit). But I get what you're saying. I don't think it changes the dynamic in the setting though (because they don't have to be used in-game) but I will agree that it skews the perception of new players, possibly making them think they should power-game their way through the setting to survive. This is where good DMing comes into play though.
Anyway, we've ventured off-topic a bit so back to it for me. I was thinking a couple of 'groups' for the iconics. One that adventures along the Sword Coast and the North, and another that adventures in Cormyr, the Dales, Moonsea, etc. Since most groups aren't made up of 10+ characters it seems logical to divide them into multiple groups. In fact, if they go with the 4-member group we could divide them into three bands once 5e's version of prestige classes (or new core classes) show up. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 15:37:10
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Well, the Pathfinder iconics venture all over Golarion, from one end to the other. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try a different approach, though. On the other hand, that would be an awful lot of iconics, and it might water-down their relevance.
EDIT: Another idea - IMG, I've come up with the 'Wayfarers Guild', which is pretty-much just like the Pathfinder society. I had the basic idea for that YEARS ago, before PF even came around, but their concept was close-enough to mine that it was easy enough for me to just use their's (renamed).
I guess the Harpers took the place of that in Ed's games, but the novels kind of nerfed their usefulness in that regard (not sure why). I guess it was just a bit too 'goody goody' for everyone's tastes.
My Wayfarers (Pathfinders) are neutral, and are an out-growth of the many 'adventurers clubs' that sprouted-up all over Faerûn (they became organized under a unified leadership). They are cartographers, explorers, and adventurers, and come from all walks of life (classes). They also help maintain the many 'Way-Stops' along major roads throughout the Realms, both with contributions and keeping them safe (the closest they come to being an organization for 'good'). They, in-turn, receive contributions from many merchant guilds and costers, for helping maintain the peace on those roads. They also get quite a bit of money from their adventurers' spoils, and for providing maps and other useful 'travel guides' to folk (Volo was a founding member).
This helps me RW in that the 'Wayfarer's Waystops' are fairly uniform, and I only need to create one and tweak it each time. Anyhow, my point is that the Paizo iconics are all connected by being Pathfinders, and maybe ours should have something similar going on? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2014 15:50:12 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 15:38:17
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Dark Wizard: I'm aware Selkirk is a mercenary captain, not an adventurer, and nt a perfect example (I used him more for the level of detail I wanted to go for). But I could also see him stepping out of retirement for a particular mission, so if the DM worked things right, it could make sense. The example kind of appealed to me as I mentioned it would be cool if a few of the iconics weren't "traditional" adventurers, but it might be simpler if they are.
I guess I got the wrong impression from your first explanation then. Since you or someone else said the iconics "weren't NPCs", I formulated this strange metagaming hybrid in my mind (I never had really seen the iconics in that light, as I said before I hadn't thought people "were supposed" to play them). But if they're adventurer NPCs, yes, that's basically what I'd want.
Wooly: I get where you're going and I agree with it, but I think it has to be pointed out that, while not giving them the spotlight, it's important (in my opinion, anyhow) to have very powerful people in the Realms who can and do influence a lot of events, and have to take each other in account when trying to set things the way they want (but if doesn't have to be Elminster).
And here's why I think it is important to have these powerful people:
1- It instills a sense of wonder and of "there's always a bigger fish". Characters should be wondering and wary of what they might find next, and that their power might outmatch them. There should be high-level villain NPCs, and from there follows that there should be high-level hero (or "not-villain") NPCs, and vice-versa (or the world would be dominated by a clique).
2- Since the D&D game traditionally involves steadily increasing in power, the setting should accomodate that. It would make me a bit sad if you couldn't run an "epic-level" game in the Realms because there's no one who can stop you (even though I don't personally like running or playing epic-level games).
3- If your lore states there's people living upwards of a thousand years while keeping on top shape and carrying on with their craft of choice, you bet they must be damn good at it. It just makes sense.
4- In most cases (for me), having powerful people around that do fantastic things give me inspiration as a player (and to my character in game). It shows me what my character can become. After all, if there's someone out there who can do it, it's attainable. You learn about all the stuff you might be able to do, and you start planning, instead of just reacting to whatever the DM throws at you. That works not only for Realms-shattering power, of course, but other examples of awesome stuff as well.
5- Because it's established. Alright, at this point that's not such a big point anymore, as few people could care less about another change in the way magic works, etcetera. But they're saying they're sticking with continuity, so, hell, stick with continuity.
I could probably point a few more, but I might start repeating myself.
(Edit) Markus & Arcanamach: It would probably be best to keep to a single set, I suppose. But having said that, I think it would be nice if they were given areas of greater interest, so you'd be more likely to find one or two particular iconics in Sembia than the rest (but those could show up too). It's not easy to do, but they should try to keep it "organic". The Realms is very large, it takes a good amount of time to get from Waterdeep to Mulhorand to Tashalar without powerful magic, so if someone is hopping through the Realms as if it was trivial, that makes it seem a bit forced - thus the "iconic focus" I suggested. It wouldn't change much in practice, but seeing people mostly "where they belong and care for" would make more sense and be more relatable. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 21 Jan 2014 15:50:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 16:05:07
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The pathfinder iconics are from definite places (not sure about all of them), but that doesn't matter at all. Their continuing 'story' is encapsulated in the adventures and adventure paths.
Part of their purpose is that they are supposed to be 'use anywhere', and represent 'any man' (or female, obviously). This is how Paizo managed to do something the Wotc/TSR guys couldn't seem to manage - have their players PLAY EVERWHERE. With the exception of Varisia - which they've concentrated heavily on - there is no set 'start area', or region where players need to be. One weak your playing in Iobaria, the next in Mwangi. The company doesn't bother to explain how - thats up to the DMs - but the assumption is that travel is fairly advanced, and you can get anywhere in a decent amount of time. Whether the DM wanst to 'play up' that travel time or not is up to him (and seems like most PF groups don't bother - they just sort of 'teleport around').
This is VERY different then how folks run The Realms - very localized - and I think the designers have been trying to figure out for years how to get players to use everything. I'm not sure why this worked for PF, and not for FR. What they really need to do is play-up the portal network so this becomes a non-issue, and they won't have to keep shrinking the maps and tweaking the lore (with Shou, Dragonborn, Genasi, Tielfings, etc in every little corner of the world!) The way it went in 3e/4e is that they tried to smoosh as much directly into the Heartlands as possible. Paizo went the other route - "Its a great big, wonderful world... enjoy it all!". Like I said, it seems to have worked for them.
So I would hope that our iconics (if we even get any) are more like that - more worldy. Otherwise we might continue to be straddled with this 'stay local' regional phenomena we've had going on since 1e. You know... come to think of it... they're iconics probably are the very tool that accomplished that!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2014 18:55:08 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 17:11:48
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But that's kind of the point... staying local makes sense. Why travel from Elturel to Durpar to seek your luck as a low-level adventurer. You've probably never even heard of Durpar. Part of the appeal of lower-level adventuring is that you are "keeping local" for the most part. If you want a change of air, start up a new campaign somewhere else. The FR Boxed Set, FRCS, etc. give you the tools for it. Or have an in-game plausible reason to take your characters there. Portals work fine too, since FR lore is riddled with them.
You see, that's the immersion breaking I was talking about... now I'm not sure how the PF Iconics "work" since many people seem to have different ideas, I just know I wouldn't want to see that in the Realms. If you say a guy is from Luskan, and then he show up in the Shaar and a player asks how and why, and you say anything like it doesn't matter at all... well, that's really shabby DMing in my opinion. Now, the company doesn't need to explain everything (no need to waste page space detailing a boring journey through the Western Heartlands), but the assumption can't be there that these people only exist for you to play with them.
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 21 Jan 2014 17:12:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 19:45:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Wooly: I get where you're going and I agree with it, but I think it has to be pointed out that, while not giving them the spotlight, it's important (in my opinion, anyhow) to have very powerful people in the Realms who can and do influence a lot of events, and have to take each other in account when trying to set things the way they want (but if doesn't have to be Elminster).
And here's why I think it is important to have these powerful people:
1- It instills a sense of wonder and of "there's always a bigger fish". Characters should be wondering and wary of what they might find next, and that their power might outmatch them. There should be high-level villain NPCs, and from there follows that there should be high-level hero (or "not-villain") NPCs, and vice-versa (or the world would be dominated by a clique).
2- Since the D&D game traditionally involves steadily increasing in power, the setting should accomodate that. It would make me a bit sad if you couldn't run an "epic-level" game in the Realms because there's no one who can stop you (even though I don't personally like running or playing epic-level games).
3- If your lore states there's people living upwards of a thousand years while keeping on top shape and carrying on with their craft of choice, you bet they must be damn good at it. It just makes sense.
4- In most cases (for me), having powerful people around that do fantastic things give me inspiration as a player (and to my character in game). It shows me what my character can become. After all, if there's someone out there who can do it, it's attainable. You learn about all the stuff you might be able to do, and you start planning, instead of just reacting to whatever the DM throws at you. That works not only for Realms-shattering power, of course, but other examples of awesome stuff as well.
5- Because it's established. Alright, at this point that's not such a big point anymore, as few people could care less about another change in the way magic works, etcetera. But they're saying they're sticking with continuity, so, hell, stick with continuity.
I could probably point a few more, but I might start repeating myself.
I'm not saying I don't want powerful people in the Realms; far from it -- some of my favorite Realms NPCs include Laeral and Khelben. What I am saying is to quit shining the spotlight upon the same couple of them at every single opportunity. Quit putting them on every other cover, especially when they aren't the focus of the product.
The constant focus on the big guns reinforces the impression that they can handle everything and that there is no need for little guys. That's part of why I've proposed FR Iconics -- to put those little guys back into the spotlight, to show they can also affect the Realms, and to have characters on covers that don't require spending $500 and six months' worth of reading to learn about.
Tantalize new fans with characters that represent an easy starting point, lore-wise, and a similarly easy starting point, game-wise. You don't welcome someone to the setting by saying "Oh, you're interested in this guy your character will never be as powerful as? Well, here, read this metric ton of material so you can learn all about him!" |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 21:11:51
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Here we go - I was looking for some map references in an old Elminster's Ecologies booklet (on Thar) and remembered that I had wanted to post the descriptions of the narrators as ideal examples for our iconics. Rather then do them all, here's just the one from Thar:
quote:
Talyssa Strongbow is a ranger who has traveled extensively throughout the Forgotten Realms. A sailor on the Moonsea, an adventurer in the Reaching Woods and the Forest of Wyrms, and a mercenary scout who fought against the hordes of Dragonspear, she has most recently made her living as a guide in the Great Gray Land of Thar. Talyssa is a flinty, somewhat grim woman who nonetheless shows deep human feelings when she is of a mind.
Thats the kind of simple write-up for a low-lev 'adveturer type' I think we are looking for here. Too bad some of you are against porting them over to 5eFR - they are just what we need. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2014 21:12:59 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 21:37:09
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- Regarding High-level NPCs.
I agree they should exist. I disagree on their exact level and think a revised scale would go a long way to "clear the air".
Epic-level play exist only in so far as the rules set provides support for it. To date, we've seen dwindling or limited support for Epic-level play (even 4E epic tier adventures number fewer than those for the heroic or champion tier). As WotC's own surveys revealed to them, few groups venture beyond level 20.
Do most of the NPCs have to be Level 30 (vs Level 25 or Level 20). I don't feel the extra handful of levels are required to capture the essence of the character.
The Realms were tagged to an obsolete rules expansion and has bore the weight of that for the last two or three editions. If anything, I think that breaks immersion more than any other examples being discussed here.
- In regards to NPCs moving about.
I think we've plenty of examples of regional mobility in the Realms. There are merchant caravans up and down the Western Heartlands and beyond. The Zhentarim runs a trade empire stretching from the Moonsea, across the Anauroch, well into the heartlands. Old Chondath spread out from the southern inner sea to found colonies up in modern Sembia, Cormyr, Impiltur. The Calishite extended deep into the Shaar and out towards the Shining Sea. Thay was a Mulhorandi colony. The Red Wizards have enclaves outside of Thay. There is sea trade up and down the Sword Coast, along the Shining Sea (even with Zakhara) and the Sea of Fallen Stars is teeming in sea routes.
Would we expect any generic Cormyrean farmer to end up in the Shaar, no. What if the Cormyrean farmboy got bored with his mundane routine and took up the adventuring life? Possibly. Bored farmboy stricken with wanderlust is the background for Pathfinder's fighter Iconic, Valeros.
I don't see how that is immersion breaking.
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Idea: 5E/Next Iconics
