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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 09:48:56
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Threw some stuff together, focused on filling the classes and races, while avoiding too much parallel with 3E and Pathfinder. These aren't characters so much as a one line listing of sex, race, class. The rest is just rambling on why and maybe some impromptu mumblings on a character concept.
Names I would swipe from the FRCS as appropriate for the characters home region and race. Backgrounds would be worked out like the PF Iconics, usually strong adversity for the character until they decided to break free from it and go adventuring.
Male (shield) dwarf barbarian (battlerager warrior rather than savage barbarian type)
A classic shield dwarf from the north. Maybe give him a warclub or mace rather than the standard axe or hammer to separate him from the typical. Heck go for the classical Hercules look, full beard, heavy club, winterwolf pelt, bare chest, six-pack. No beer belly on this fellow, alcohol only makes him more more ripped. This guy is 300's King Leonidas in dwarven form. For tonight he dines on hell. And with his stomach, those devils better watch out. Old Hellgut.
Fairly known archetype and dwarves are good physical combatants, playing to that strength. People like dwarves being dwarves, this provides that while not retreading the dwarven fighter. Nice contrast to the 3E orc barbarian. PF's dwarf is a ranger, so no overlap. Why not a female dwarf? I'm too ill-informed to answer the vagaries of female dwarves (beard/no beard, no clue).
Female tiefling bard
Tieflings are 'in' now. Rogue and sorcerer seemed obvious, this is a good compromise. Female because all the prior bard Iconics (PF and 3E's two bard Iconics) are male. Makes a good, charismatic face for the party, but complicates it with the fiendish heritage.
Plus who doesn't love a good diabolical metal singer ::raises horns:: (j/k, not really).
Male human (Chondathan or Illuskan) cleric of Torm (or whatever form the Triad is in nowadays)
Human because the pantheon. Male because the PF cleric is female. Torm because both the 3E and PF cleric worshiped sun deities. Plus, I'm shifting the paladin from the typical paladin deities (See paladin below).
This character will fill the standard vanilla male badass quota, cause this cleric is not simply the pushover healing type, but could be if he wants to.
Male halfling druid
Male because both 3E and PF druids are female. 3E's druid was half-elf, PF is a gnome. Halflings can be a pretty pastoral lot, maybe. Thinking maybe some worship of Chauntea or the halfling equivalent (my recollection for racial pantheons sort of petered out around the elven and dwarven pantheons).
Farmer by birth, nature priest by vocation, adventurer and hero by hobby and choice. He's a sickle-wielding, grain harvesting, tree-planting, animal husbandry'ing maniac. "Ever been trampled by a stampede of razorhorn cattle?" The halfling hawks up phlegm and spits while a length of straw rests in his mouth. "You're gonna know how that feels."
Female human fighter
All 3E and PF Iconic fighters are male. This warrior-woman character wins by default. Valeros (PF fighter) is a a dual-wielder, Regdar has an ambiguous style (zing), probably sword-and-shield. We can go with the ever reliable greatsword here. And they probably won't cover the one-handed style until they put out some swashbuckler supplements. A swashbuckler vibe wouldn't be bad either, a lady dread pirate who has sailed up and down the sword coast seeking her fortune while tracking the killers of her family.
Male dragonborn monk
Dragonborn are also 'in'. Since they're weird, let's pair them with the other weird class in the standard core rules. Let's give him tattoos, cause those go well with monks and dragonborn hide seems like a good inking surface. He'll be the wise but non-dogmatic character of the bunch. Male because ... no reptilian bewbs.
Female half-elf paladin of Sune
Female cause there's a club of Iconic female paladins and they're awesome. Half-elf cause Aribeth still has fans, plus I ran out of ideas for them (half-elves of 3E were Devis the bard and Vadania the druid, PF is Seltyiel the magus (formerly fighter/wizard/eldritch knight)), half-elves are all over the place. Paladin of Sune because it's not the deity you'd expect (::raspy Batman voice:: but the deity you'll love). Paladin Iconics are always followers of the god of paladins. Not this one, but she still fights for truth and justice, with the power of love (Sune is a greater goddess, love is potent stuff, seriously).
Considered making this one half-drow. "Don't judge her by her appearance on the outside, she really does have a heart of gold" gimmicky? How about if she wore a porcelain mask to politely obscure her heritage, in contrast with her bright red eyes, silver hair, and night dark skin. Too gonzo?
Male half-orc ranger
Trying to get away from the uncivilized, savage orcs a bit, but still keeping to their roots as a tough and rugged people. 3E's ranger was Soveliss the elf, PF is Harsk the dwarf, orc-blood is like their collective nemesis. Male because the PF half-orc is a female and her main weapon is a bow.
This guy carries axes, not cause it's an orc thing, but it's the most sensible weapon for a woodsman (none of that scimitar nonsense). He also smokes pipeweed.
Male gnome rogue
All iconic rogues have been female (3E halfling, PF elf). Gnomes are like magical halflings, small, unseen, and clever.
Gnomes are often drawn with a knowing smirk, now this gnome has a reason for it, because he just stole your coin pouch, the keys to your home, your gorgeous girlfriend, your cool best friend, the dagger you kept in your boot. Look he just sneak attacked you with it because he caught the secret signal you tried to send to your fellow Banite agents. You didn't see him coming?
Gnomes, they do stuff we don't know about, sometimes right under our faces.
Female elven sorceress
For sorcerers 3E had a human male (and an elf male), PF has a human female, both scantily clad (it's the law). Let's harken back to the famous elven sorcerers of old (like alternate Iconic 3E old?). Well, this is mostly to avoid the elf wizard combo and the ensuing repeat of the otherworldly oddity that is Mialee (I keed, I keed).
I get it, people like their elfmaidens to be pretty. You got it, but where the human sorcerers are trashy, this elf is classy. Though if you need one Iconic to be evil, this is your go to choice, cause … elves. ;)
In that case, a sun elf. ;;)
Male human (Turami) wizard
Like the younger version of the wizard from Turmish on the cover of Complete Arcane, that guy was terrific. The trimmed beard, the facial markings denoting skill in reading, writing, and the Art. The look is distinct and will not be confused for Gandalminster.
How are we looking on the gender balance, 7 males, 4 female. Should switch a male to help balance them out. Guess the best choice is the wizard, a female Turami wizard then. Or else a female Mulan Red Wizard, with the full shaved head and tattoos look, the evil leaning but cooperative Iconic.
Since PF had the Magus (Eldritch Knight) Iconic, and FR 4E added the Swordmage class to the mix, we get one more for the "gish" archetype.
Female moon elf swordmage/magus (bladesinger): Pretty self explanatory. Insert optional sob story about lost family moonblade as appropriate because everyone has one of those. Not male because the PF magus (fighter/mage) is a male half-elf.
The above elven sorceress would definitely be a sun elf in this case, unless they switch.
A quick run down of the other Pathfinder base classes might be:
Cavalier
Child of a Cormyrean mercanary and a Tuigan servant from Yaimunahar. His family is actually descended from an honest-to-Siamorphe bastard of Azoun (and on the Tuigan side, a distant and disgraced relation of Yamun Khahan). While heeding the call for foreign expertise, the character's grandsire got mired in eastern politics, but found his fortune and decided to go native in the eastern wastes. Their status reversed in this generation and the young scion is escaping back to his ancestral region ("Kormeer?").
Before departing their burning estate, his dying father revealed to him their heritage but also gave stern warning (old Vangey was still watching after all) not to interfere unless the Obarskyrs no longer sit on the dragon throne. Only then will the young cavalier reclaim a birth right on one hand, and complete a dream of conquest for his ancestor on the other.
His countrymen would hardly recognize him, his clan gave up the lance and charge decades ago, now they are dreaded horse archers with mighty composite bows, but he is still every bit the cavalier. Following the advice of an ancient family friend by the name of Terminsel, our young knight has avoided setting foot in Cormyr and instead seeks to make his own fortune with the help of some random western rabble. Oh, how he longs for the day he can trade up in companions for nobler company.
Alchemist & Gunslinger
One human Lantanna and one gnome, mix and match to hearts desire.
Human inquisitor
Definitely of Amaunator, that son of an eclipse.
Human oracle
Basically favored souls. Fill in unrepresented human ethnicity and sex.
Genasi summoner
Calishite, sha'ir offshoot class, not quite a full sha'ir. The eidolon is an elemental servant.
Human witch
The Wychlaren of Rasheman come to mind. If not, then any place where a hedge witch can originate will be filled by this one.
Yeah, I was going to do a legendary gimmick for all of them and call it their MIGHTY secret. Technically, the cavalier's history doesn't affect a damn thing about the character. Sounds good, better than most of the other barebones sketches (because they're barebones), but I don't see how it can do anything but limit the character as an introductory PC.
It's late here now.
Have fun. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 13 Jan 2014 09:53:09 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 13:54:06
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| DW: Your mock-up iconics are very good. The only one I have a problem with is the paladin of Sune. I know they exist but I have trouble conjoining paladinhood with a CG deity (just a preference). I would go with Helm or Kelemvor...both are a step away from the god of paladins trope while being lawful. I will say the Sunite concept is interesting though. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 14:29:22
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Guys, I think you're placing way too much emphasis on the idea of this back-country descendant of Lhaeo. Five or six generations removed from the path to the throne goes a long way towards distancing family, especially if said family members also grew up for the last century several countries away. I'd imagine the throne of Tethyr barely even knows anyone out there (if they do at all). Think about it, if it were 5 generations removed from the throne, that would be like you knowing who your great-great-great-grandparents were and you still maintained contact with the great-great-great-nieces and nephews of their sisters. Personally, I only knew my great-grandmother, know nothing of any brothers and sisters she had, and barely have contact with even my grandmother's sisters (and only know a single cousin from down that path).... and we're talking knowing 2 generations back beyond those. Sure, their names are probably in a book somewhere in Tethyr's royal vault, but that's probably about it. I see their lineage maybe well known in Shadowdale, but treated more as a joke ("she's so full of herself! She draws her water from the well just as much as me, and that son of hers would be laughed out of a Cormyrian Festhall for the drool puddle he'd leave on the floor").
If it weren't a hundred years later, yeah, I could see the point, but this much time the linkage is just to provide a reasoning that he might have access to some books (and doubting Elminster lets him in the tower) since he probably grew up being trained in the arts of a scribe, and maybe loved perusing the books in the now run-down temple of Deneir as a place to hide out and get out of working the fields.
Now, I can see the point when using children of say the Chosen, Elminster, etc.... as they had personal power and immortality. But, having a many generations removed son of the Huhrong of Rashemen in the 1300's, or a great grandson of Harkle Harpell who went down a darker path and started worshipping Malyk (god of wild magic), or an "archivist" (from HoH) who is a great-great-great-Grandchild of Cadderly and Danica. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 14:49:26
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I think DW is just concerned that the connection to the past (if any are used) will overshadow the purpose for which Iconics are created...and he has a point. It could come to pass, at a later date, that those connections would be used as catalysts for writing novels or creating adventures centering on them...which I think most would agree is undesirable.
My thing is, people do not exist in a vacuum (we have connections to the past) and, personally, I would like to see two or three minor connections to established characters. The iconics do not even have to be aware of them although seeing them in comic form (with some stories highlighting these connections eventually) would be kewl. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 15:14:13
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For the realms, I don't see the iconics where we do each character class as necessary. The better iconics in my view would be to show members of certain power groups (a low level harper, Zhent, Mulmasterite, Dragon Cultist, red wizard, wychlaran, Emerald Enclave, Halruaan Elder, Crintri Noble Piratess, Mulhorandi priest, maybe a few different priests to represent the "types" of god groupings (magic, knowledge, good nature, bad nature, the Dark Gods, and maybe some racial pantheons) since priests are the most useful way to drag in players in a lot of situations.
That being said, I still favor just the low powered NPC by region who may only have NPC classes but is a font of information. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 15:23:40
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Since we never had anything official on Thuderstorm or Alissa, why couldn't they be 'raw recruits' in the 1479+ DR era?
Consider their pics in earlier products an anachronism. 
Love your concepts BTW - WotC, take heed! The Turami Wizard is a MUST.
LOL - a descendent of BOTH Azoun AND Yamun Kahan?! 
See how easy it is DW? We just can't help ourselves. 
EDIT: On the topic of 'the topic': Our iconics have to also do something the Paizo ones never had to - bridge the gap of the 'edition wars'. Thats why I think a few nods (NOTHING spectacular) to the past is in order. Why was 4e so poorly received? Because it did feel like something entirely NEW. FR is not new, and we need at least a couple of connections so that grognards like us don't turn our backs on the new lore, while at the same time, keep those connections subtle-enough where it won't matter if newbies "don't get it".
Have you considered, half the fun for those new players is later learning about those connections? That at some point, a character they've been playing for a few sessions gets a whole new level of 'cool' when they learn his grandmother was once an apprentice of The Blackstaff? Power-wise, that does nothing for them - it just gives it a really nice RP possibility down the road. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2014 15:34:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 15:53:32
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| On the ranger with the axe instead of scimitars... perhaps a better representation would be a ranger with paired machetes for chopping his way through vines. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 16:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I think DW is just concerned that the connection to the past (if any are used) will overshadow the purpose for which Iconics are created...and he has a point. It could come to pass, at a later date, that those connections would be used as catalysts for writing novels or creating adventures centering on them...which I think most would agree is undesirable.
My thing is, people do not exist in a vacuum (we have connections to the past) and, personally, I would like to see two or three minor connections to established characters. The iconics do not even have to be aware of them although seeing them in comic form (with some stories highlighting these connections eventually) would be kewl.
It's true that people don't exist in a vacuum, but at the same time, people aren't necessarily connected to anyone famous by any noteworthy degree... My grandparents on my mother's side apparently knew Ronald Reagan -- but for me, that's just too tenuous a connection to make a big deal about (especially since I consider myself estranged from that family). As far as I'm concerned, I have no connections to anyone famous. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Jan 2014 16:11:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 16:40:38
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So while actually doing nothing for you, its just a 'fun fact'. Thats the kind of treatment (for just a few iconics) I am talking about. It doesn't have to be all heroes - a few could have connections to villains (a grandaughter of Manshoon, for example, that was mentioned in another thread... but make it so that she has to hide that connection, otherwise he would kill her). Or if Manshoon is too high-profile, then some lesser Zhent (Lord Chess, perhaps?)
In some cases, being 'the black sheep of the family' might mean you're a 'good guy'. BTW, the Manshoon thing was just an example - I would NOT want that (for an iconic).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the ranger with the axe instead of scimitars... perhaps a better representation would be a ranger with paired machetes for chopping his way through vines.
You mean like THIS GUY?
He even looks like a half-orc!!! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2014 16:42:34 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 16:57:58
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| HA! Danny Trejo is great and, you know, I actually could see a half-orc based off of him. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 17:32:23
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As mentioned before by some, I think that if they go for FR iconics, it should'n't be done in the same way as PF-Golarion, the reason being that the greatest objective strength of FR as compared to Golarion is that it's been around longer. The history is an asset, and it'd be madness not to use it (to a great extent, that's the mistake of 4e).
That doesn't mean we need members of royalty or children of Drizzt. If the mother of the Turmian wizard is in the Assembly of Stars, the military man from the Vast has the last name Selkirk, the Amnian cleric says the venerable priestess she was looking after used to be called one of the Five Furies, a paladin remembers the tales of his grandfather about the Knights of Imphras II, or even the kind-of-meta idea of using Dûd Onahorz in some way, that brings us older fans closer, and for new fans it's just "normal", interesting lore. Then maybe one more "on your face" bridge like the idea of Volo's great-grand-daughter, and many very, very subtle easter eggs which Ed Greenwood of all people won't have any trouble coming up with.
Add representation of gender, race, age, build, ethnicity and profession (like classes, but not necessarily) and most people would be very happy, I think.
Personally I'd include some iconics who aren't adventurers. They might be in roles where they directly interact with them, and could even have classes implicitly (a priest who travels frequently, for example). If I were to write an iconic that's what I'd do, but it's a bit specific to my tastes, I guess. Though I don't see how one or two of those could be overly damaging to the general concept of iconics. |
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My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 17:54:47
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glad I wasnt the only one thinking about machete .......
would we need a purple dragon knight iconic???
yeah keep the elven sorceress sun elven, we all know that sun elven spell casters tend to be bad news... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 19:42:43
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I'm glad to see more discussion along the lines of such characters rather than the heavy focus on people's grandsires.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to the occasional link. Maybe a shared surname to a "champion tier" character from the 3E era (a hundred years is a long time), much like Mapolq's examples above.
I'll give Markus his Volarra. It's so crazy it might work. Actually, of all the known connections tossed back and forth, Volarra is the most feasible. No Elminster-tutored Lhaeo-descended 47th-in-line royalty. No time travel shenanigans like with Thunderstorm. Volarra would just be a regular descendant of a low-to-mid-level travelogue writer who happened to have Elminster as an editor (from century ago). Maybe that's the background for one of the concepts I posted above, probably the tiefling bard. In that case, is Volo himself the instigator of the fiendish contact...?
I could see the wizard trained at Blackstaff's academy, not Khelben's era, but the current Blackstaff. Or even someone from the Wands family. Or someone trained with the Wychlaran.
Throwing a Harpell in there might get too zany. It's all about how much we're tossing into these. Wouldn't want the entire ragtag band to sport famous surnames or have the calling card of known heavy-weights.
I like to use the example of Minsc (from the Baldur's Gate games) to highlight what I mean. He's a ranger from Rashemen out on dajemma. He doesn't know the Simbul and he didn't give Szass Tam a nick on his bony chin. He's tied to a culture in the setting, but beyond that, his story is typical for young warriors from his country. He gets one insider reference to Spelljammer, which does not affect anything and virtually all other characters cannot possibly take seriously. His character is all about being distinct without be tied to anyone else of known stature, while not placing him in a vacuum. He's Realmsian (and even beyond). His story and personality is interesting, but it doesn't tied him down to anyone. He's free to be an adventurer of his own accord.
Onto a few points:
- NPC characters, while potentially iconic, are not Iconics.
- The Iconics are created based on the classes because it differentiates the characters for gaming. They could create characters for the power groups, but there's nothing to handle the logistics of having a fighter from each group, then people will have a party of fighters. Or what if the groups are not even active in the region, why is a representative on an adventure where their group has no interests. The Iconics are not tied down because they are able to be free agents. If the party consists of the Iconic fighter, rogue, wizard and cleric, they're free to join any group during the game that will take them. Maybe one playing group decides to side with the Harpers, another will decide to take a quest from the Lords of Waterdeep. These are not canon NPCs, they are not NPCs in the traditional sense. They are not quest givers and information holders. They're pre-made player characters.
I understand it's almost a foreign concept for a veteran gamer and fan of the setting to consider this. We could create playable characters for the Realms with no trouble. For a new player presented with all the options of the game on top of all the options of the setting, it can be a daunting overload of information. Easing that initial burst of information is the purpose* of the Iconics.
*In addition they're a way to keep art orders consistent but varied. So no "old Drizzt", or white Turami, or every person on the cover being generic disposable warrior dude (because the art order was give me 'someone' fighting a dragon). Give an art order to an artist, "paladin in hell fighting demons". He'll probably give you a male armored knight, if the helm is open, he'll probably be a man of European descent. Paizo simply says, give me "Seelah in hell fighting demons." You'll see a dark-skinned female paladin battling it out with demons.
Sure there are artists who buck the trends, but most will stick to the standard because they know it's the safe option and they don't have time to for major redo's. This also simplifies the task for people writing the art order.
The Iconics basically get Drizzt and Elminster level of art assets and "advertising" but without the long novel lines associated with such characters.
- Machetes, love them for rangers, but they're rarely stat'ed as anything but scimitars or axes-that-look-like-swords. It's the reason why druids can use them (but not longswords).
- The bloodline of both Azoun & Yamun! I know that was too easy and a lot of fun. I'm not here to stomp on people's fun. At the same time I would like a meaningful discussion on ways to open up the Realms to new people.
While it was 3.5E (and dislike of 4E) that sold the Pathfinder game. I think it was the Pathfinder Iconics who helped clinch it for Golarion. They're just enough information to get people interested in the setting, first visually and then by way of their backgrounds. People were asking "Oh, she looks cool, what kingdom is she from?" "What deity does her holy symbol represent?" "Why do elves look like that?" They're inviting because you can play as them.
You don't play as Drizzt or Elminster, or even their close relations, typically. You read about their adventures. With Iconics, they're design to let you play in adventures as them.
- Imagine a piece of art for the line-up of Realms Iconics done like The Sundering line-up. How fantastic would that be.
The artwork makes me want to play in the Realms (it's my desktop wallpaper), but those are not the characters I can ever imagining playing because of their deep product lines. The Pathfinder Iconics I could see, maybe as a one-shot pick up game.
For new players, there's probably no barriers for characters like the PF Iconics. If the Sundering line-up (or even a diluted equivalent) were the FR Iconics line-up: "Here, read these novels about your grandpa, else you're doing it wrong or you just won't get it."
Again, not a shot against the novel characters. Iconics, in the sense of pre-gen player characters, are coming at this from a different design standpoint.
Now this may all be a moot point considering WotC was creating a massive archive of Realms art. However, we've heard nothing about it since the art director stepped down. Iconics (capital I) remains a good short-hand to manage art and branding while also providing that initial step to playing in the setting.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 20:24:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I'll give Markus his Volarra. It's so crazy it might work. Actually, of all the known connections tossed back and forth, Volarra is the most feasible.
LOL - we've tempted you with the 'Dark Side' - FEEL THE POWER!
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I could see the wizard trained at Blackstaff's academy, not Khelben's era, but the current Blackstaff. Or even someone from the Wands family. Or someone trained with the Wychlaran.
Now you get the idea - I NEVER said 'Khelben' - that would just be fans reading too much into it. I was actually thinking of that woman who replaced him.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Throwing a Harpell in there might get too zany. It's all about how much we're tossing into these. Wouldn't want the entire ragtag band to sport famous surnames or have the calling card of known heavy-weights.
A Harpell is SO tempting, but if we were to seriously consider that at all, then I would make it a non-magically gifted descendent - someone who left because the rest of the family looked at him like he was 'special' (if you catch my drift). Then make him an awesome fighter or something completely out-of-line with Harpels, and also dead-pan serious (so no sense of humor at all). This should be something revealed slowly, over time. At first he could just comment, "My family were a bunch of spell-hurling lunatics, so I left". Thats all we'd need (at first).
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Imagine a piece of art for the line-up of Realms Iconics done like The Sundering line-up. How fantastic would that be.
GREAT idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
No time travel shenanigans like with Thunderstorm.
Here's the thing - WHEN was Thundnerstorm from? Introducing him in D&Dnext/FR5e is only an anachronism in the RW, not in-setting. Same goes for Alissa.
Hear me out - I once made a comment (that got some pretty vitriolic feedback) that "Ed Greenwood is dead! WotC killed him!" I did that over on the WotC boards because I felt it was true - if the setting got moved forward a hundred years, then it is somewhere around 2100 AD on Earth. Now, assuming we don't keep his head alive in a jar, I truly doubt he'll be around then (sorry Ed - no offense). Even if we used the game compression ratio we used to have (which was never meant for this) - 1 year for every 3 RW - then we'd still be around 2040 AD. Ed could easily be around then... but I think the fantasy world he would be living in might not have anything to do with FR.
So I had an idea awhile back, inspired some stuff another poster said. What if the Realms that Elminster was telling Ed about was the 'Realms of old'? That the one Ed 'met' was really the one from the post-Spellplague era? Its not like Elminster hasn't relayed tons of Torillian history to us already - why can't 'the current era' (of 1e/2e/3e) actually have been part of that past? How do we even know he isn't an Elminster from even FURTHER in the future of The Realms (that we know)?
So what, you may ask, has any of this got to do with the iconics? Simple - if we have seen (here, in our time, or rather, 20 years ago) a picture or two of someone, but had no information on them, then those might have been 'foreshadowing' of things Elminster knew about already, but wasn't yet prepared to talk about. So long as there was no actual lore attached to it, we can go back and use any piece of artwork we want, moving forward. None of that stupid, "here are the panties the Simbul would have worn had she the inkling to ever wear panties" BS we got with the GhotR. I am talking about taking any of the great pieces of art we've seen before and attaching cool stories to them. For example, here is a group of orcs from the 3e MMIV. See that woman in the front there? She's called a 'Half-Orc Infiltrator'. Why can't we have her? Its just a pic, and I would expect new art based on it, but still, if we use it it doesn't mean we've broken continuity in anyway. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2014 20:28:28 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 20:43:08
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I never thought of the Pathfinder iconics as playable characters. Examples, yes. And of course someone could choose to play as one of them, but if that's their purpose, it seems counter-intuitive to me. That's because they have an unfolding story in a way. Sure, it's not really static like a novel, but when you open a book you'll still see them speak with the voice of the game designer instead of yours. I can see playing them in a one-shot adventure maybe, but any longer would feel really weird.
I think it is a good idea to present pre-generated characters for D&D Next. You can call them D&D iconics if you wish, and use them for art purposes... but give them personalities and unfolding stories, and they aren't really generic anymore. Now, if they make FR iconics, I'd like those to be characters that showcase elements of the setting, not the game. I think the two roles are separate enough that there should really be two sets of "iconics", but the generic ones need almost no detail - detail ruins their purpose, as they should be yours to develop as a player. As I said in another thread, I'm not really fond of this "blank slate" design approach, but I can accept it does have a use to introduce someone to the game. Now, the setting is all about unfolding stories, so the setting iconics would have to fill a different role, especially in a history-rich setting such as the Realms.
I guess it's also part of my view that a campaign setting shouldn't assume the PCs exist, it should be treated as if it existed independently of games, novels, etc. So there is no room for characters who're screaming (or even whispering) "Insert your PC here". That would be really bad for immersion for me, especially if they start showing up everywhere.
Edit: Ditto for Markus' comment on art. It can represent anyone, anywhere at any time, as long as it's not conflicting with something described in the lore or shown in the art (for example, if the image shows the sigil of Elminster, or a huge desert, that has to be accounted for, somehow). |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 13 Jan 2014 20:52:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 20:59:58
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| Thunderstorm was written up on one of the TSR Collector Cards, as I recall. That puts him in-setting in the 1350s/60s. I think the same applies to Alissa of the Mists. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 21:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
HA! Danny Trejo is great and, you know, I actually could see a half-orc based off of him.
I think we'd have to pretty him up some to make him a half-orc. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 21:32:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Thunderstorm was written up on one of the TSR Collector Cards, as I recall. That puts him in-setting in the 1350s/60s. I think the same applies to Alissa of the Mists.
How so?
Is there any lore about them that specifically dated them?
I think we may be letting our 'grognardise' get the best of us, here. Would it REALLY matter if they were introduced as 5eFR characters? You really can't get much more iconic then Thunderstorm. I would even put him on the 5e campaign Guide (once again, to tie the fanbase back together).
As for 'Alissa', I think that was just the name of the art itself. I always imagined that was a pic of Alusair in full-dress armor. I could take her or leave her, but Thunderstorm is a must, IMHO. He idealizes what we are talking about here - an iconic symbol of The Realms, that has no back-story. He's perfect. Just seeing him gives me 'the warm-fuzzies'.
As an aside, didn't someone point-out in another thread that he WAS updated somewhere?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 22:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Thunderstorm was written up on one of the TSR Collector Cards, as I recall. That puts him in-setting in the 1350s/60s. I think the same applies to Alissa of the Mists.
How so?
Is there any lore about them that specifically dated them?
No, but if they were written up when the current time frame of the Realms is 1350/60ish, then it's pretty safe to assume that's when they were alive.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think we may be letting our 'grognardise' get the best of us, here. Would it REALLY matter if they were introduced as 5eFR characters? You really can't get much more iconic then Thunderstorm. I would even put him on the 5e campaign Guide (once again, to tie the fanbase back together).
Why recycle, yet again, instead of creating something new? We've long complained about TSR/WotC recycling art; I don't think that doing it yet again is a good idea.
And he's only iconic if you're familiar with a 20-year old product -- and not necessarily even then. I've always found that artwork rather bland and uninteresting.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for 'Alissa', I think that was just the name of the art itself. I always imagined that was a pic of Alusair in full-dress armor. I could take her or leave her, but Thunderstorm is a must, IMHO. He idealizes what we are talking about here - an iconic symbol of The Realms, that has no back-story. He's perfect. Just seeing him gives me 'the warm-fuzzies'.
Alissa was a named NPC.
Alusair, as I recall, didn't have a curved sword, winged helm, or unicorn.
I personally never liked the artwork of Thunderstorm... And when I think of someone being iconic for a setting, I'd rather that it was someone actually created for the setting, instead of just some convenient bit of artwork.
I don't know if Alissa of the Mists was created for the Realms or not, but for me, the art of her is a lot more interesting than that of Thunderstorm. There was even a poster of her in one of the old Dragon magazines; it graced my wall for a long time. I'd love to have a framed print of that one.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As an aside, didn't someone point-out in another thread that he WAS updated somewhere?
According to Brian R James, there is a 1385 illustration of him in the 4E campaign book. That definitively places him (Thunderstorm, not Brian! ) in a specific time frame. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Jan 2014 22:32:32 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 23:28:06
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@ Markus' post:
We've a few Blackstaves since even Khelben's successor in 4E/5E.
One Harpel is fine (two Harpel, three Harpel, ah ah ha). One Volarra is fine. But if each character had one connection, be it a name or background tidbit, the group is starting to look like the same old gang and very homogenous. The Realms are bigger than even a few families published in existing lore, not even counting the scores of families with some information but never featured with even minor NPCs. We can cast a much wider net.
Why go back to the same old names (with some quirks to them), El/Lhaeo, Volo Geddarm, and Harpel. Why not less used names like Cormaeril, Rowanmantle, Amcathra, Roaringhorn, or Floshin. And those are still at the known NPCs, there are many score established families with even less lore and exposure. Why not feature more of them.
Digging up characters from old artwork is doable given WotC has a ton of it. However, the Iconics are a very deliberate set of combinations. I don't see going to the archives as a mainstay for most of them.
@ Maploq's post:
Like you, I don't play as the PF Iconics either. That doesn't mean they're not of utility for new players or as a branding alternative to the legendary NPCs.
Going by the execution of the 3E Iconics, I was dubious about Paizo's attempt as well, until I saw some positive results. The 3E ones were utterly generic and they didn't pick up steam.
The PF Iconics are setting specific, have some background and personality, but enough room to allow players to run with. There is a middle ground between the two extremes you're discussing.
You have it reversed, the Iconics story unfold so slowly, they seem utterly static compared to novel characters. Even seemingly status quo novel characters from long-running series undergo changes that the Iconics simply don't experience. Of course this is worsened by the setting's tendency to use RSEs.
True the Realms is about unfolding stories, but it doesn't mean the Iconics have to have one. Once a player picks one up, the player become part of the unfolding story. Until then, making Iconics progress is pinning a moving target on them that forces new players to play catch up.
Iconics do not mean there's a vacant hole in the lore that assumes PCs. If it's not one adventuring group doing something here, it's another. Does it matter if they're Realms Iconics, your own PCs, or someone else's? The only time it matters is if the characters are picked up by novels (Avatar trilogy adventures or the original Dragonlance adventures) which "expends" the adventure in novel form.
***
I'm not singling any one scribe out, but I'm a bit surprised by the apparent resistance the idea of Realms Iconics is receiving. It almost feels like Realms fans here are somehow adverse to a set of mundane, not well-connected, adventurers who remain fairly static and are used to represent the setting in art and covers.
Why is there a conflation between "mundane, not-connected" and "non-legendary" with concepts such as "generic" and "non-setting specific" and "not ideal, not iconic".
What is 'troubling' about a freelancing Turami wizard who was trained by a no-name, unimportant, but competent mentor, and who has no deep connections to big named NPCs. Is Elminster, or the Blackstaff, or the Harpels the only competent or interesting mage tutors available in the setting?
His father was a merchant and his mother a mage. After his mother died of fever, his father remarried years later to a Halruaan sky-ship mage. It was she who taught him magic. She was nice to him, but he always felt she was on the run from something. One day, mysterious wizards caught up to them and slew her with powerful spells. He was hopelessly out-magicked and so he ran. His father blames him for not helping his step-mother. His father fell into a stupor, ran afoul of Sembian rivals and his business crumbled. Eventually his father passed away in a haze of alcohol and narcotics, provided by his Amnian "friends" who he partnered with to compete with the Sembians. These Amnians also managed to take the Turami wizard's inheritance. They forced him out onto the streets, but by then he was capable of taking care of himself. One day he will swoop in with his fortune acquired from his adventures to buy them out of house and home. He will spare their families though, because our wizard has a sense of justice and honesty. He is actually fine with Sembians, as they bested his father in fair business practices. He also spends his time uncovering more about his step-mother's murderers, he found they were Zhentarim Sky-Mages. As he learns more, he will one day strike out against them to bring them to justice, but for now he is a simple wizard-for-hire.
Does this Turami wizard have to have received a scar from a mage-duel with Manshoon himself to be interesting? Does he have to automatically join the Harpers under sponsorship from Storm Silverhand to be interesting?
His parents, step-mother, and his enemies are nobodies. Doesn't mean they're not Realms-specific characters.
Is not a dwarven battlerager with his own traits and destiny and family not interesting. Does he have to be Bruenor's kin? Does he have to be saved by Drizzt from an ogre raid when he was a child to be interesting?
A cleric of Torm is setting specific. He doesn't need to be one of the Martyr's Progeny, or from the Lost Realm of Chelsembyr, or an estranged son of Fzoul to be setting specific.
Is a character not Realms-specific if they don't have a handful of famous names peppered in their back-stories or if they didn't partake in some major event? Is not their nationality, ethnicity, patron deity enough?
Are the Realms "too good" for Bahb the fighter from Tethyr (mother was Calishite) and instead it has to be Durnan Piergeironsun who fought against the Shadowmasters besides his grand-uncle Mirt who gave him his first sword; a broken moonblade that Halaster once used as a backscratcher shortly before his demise, found by Qilue before she lost it in the Underdark where it was reforged by Jarlaxle who gave it to Artemis who used to to defeat Soneillon (in two duels) where it broke again only to be carried on the Sea of Fallen Stars by a series of ill-fated Serosian Dukars. Until it was slated to be used in place of one of Cormyr's coronation blades, until Baravar Cloakshadow himself ferreted it away in a bet he had with Brandobaris. The halfling won either way, but lost the blade in the High Forest where Turlag discovered it and gave it to Asper when she happened to pass by, and from there we finally get to Mirt. Yes, that Durnan of the Peerless Blade. Not the original Durnan who he was named after (cause true Realms fans would know that). And he's not actually a relative of Piergeiron, he just took the name for convenience. And the sword is actually not magical, having long been stripped of magic by spelljamming elves (somewhere between the dukars and Cormyr).
I don't understand where a lot of the wariness stems from. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 23:34:18
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| As his creator, I can say with some certainty that Bahb the Fighter is from Cormyr, not Tethyr. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 23:41:02
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| That's his cover story, he was actually Brandobaris in disguise, posing as Cormyrean warrior out to make Baravar look the fool. For you see, Bahb made Durnan Piergeironsun the man he never wasn't. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 00:10:09
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Ah, I think I understand now.
We want iconics who represent “typical“ adventurers yet aren‘t underpowered or overpowered or outlandish or generically archetyped, who are interestingly unusual yet still plausibly mundane, who seem entirely functional and understandable yet also enigmatic and cryptic, who are cool and potent and capable yet won‘t overshadow average inept rules-generated PCs, who break out of canned genre expectations without being gauche and garish, daring yet inoffensive, who are unique and exotic yet somehow intrinsically familiar to all peoples of all cultures and ethnicities, and - above all else! - who aren‘t seen wearing ordinary or flamboyantly dopey-looking outfits without a really, really, really damned good reason. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Jan 2014 00:22:14 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 00:18:03
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By the gods, have we made a break through in understanding? Was starting to think we were going to have break out the geas spells.
Correct on all parts, it's a high order, except for the dopey outfits bit. Have you seen what the 3E and PF Iconics wear... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 00:22:47
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I really do think we are on the same page. I am starting to sound like a broken record, but the idea was to just give one or two that treatment, not the whole group (which could grow quite large, as Pathfinder's is doing).
Also, I want a Wyvernspur. If I can't have a Harpell, Aumair, Obarskyr, Manshoon, Ladyshoon, Boyshoon, babyshoon, etc, etc... then I want a damn Wyvernspur!
Ewwwww... just pictured a 'Szass Tam Baby' - ugly little lich-thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
His father was a merchant and his mother a mage. After his mother died of fever, his father remarried years later to a Halruaan sky-ship mage. <snip>
Can she have at least gotten sick from kissing Elminster? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2014 00:23:16 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 00:25:22
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| Szass Tam, Jr looks like a real son of a lich, Markus. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 00:39:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really do think we are on the same page. I am starting to sound like a broken record, but the idea was to just give one or two that treatment, not the whole group (which could grow quite large, as Pathfinder's is doing).
Also, I want a Wyvernspur. If I can't have a Harpell, Aumair, Obarskyr, Manshoon, Ladyshoon, Boyshoon, babyshoon, etc, etc... then I want a damn Wyvernspur!
That's more like it. Despite a series of novel, Finder is still a pretty obscure deity (how is he holding up in 4E?) and the Wyvernspurs aren't a small family without many minor branches. It can work.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ewwwww... just pictured a 'Szass Tam Baby' - ugly little lich-thing.
The Atropal arrived first and ... stillborn.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Can she have at least gotten sick from kissing Elminster?
Different type of 'fever' (ahem). While being a Chosen gives him certain immunities and a +10 bonus to Constitution, he's still a carrier for ... things, Avernian influenza, Malaugrym measles, Shadovar syphilis, weirdbeard crabs. Get ready to spread that Silver Fire around, baby. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 02:02:32
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quote:
Why not less used names like Cormaeril, Rowanmantle, Amcathra, Roaringhorn, or Floshin. And those are still at the known NPCs, there are many score established families with even less lore and exposure. Why not feature more of them.
+100 for this. It would be nice to see new lore created about some (normally) unused families...and an Iconic created for that purpose would be just fine. Though I do want to mention that an Amcathra was part of Ed's homebrew Knights (please correct me if I'm wrong) so you are, in fact, on board with creating ties to past characters.
quote:
Are the Realms "too good" for Bahb the fighter from Tethyr (mother was Calishite) and instead it has to be Durnan Piergeironsun who fought against the Shadowmasters besides his grand-uncle Mirt who gave him his first sword; a broken moonblade that Halaster once used as a backscratcher shortly before his demise, found by Qilue before she lost it in the Underdark where it was reforged by Jarlaxle who gave it to Artemis who used to to defeat Soneillon (in two duels) where it broke again only to be carried on the Sea of Fallen Stars by a series of ill-fated Serosian Dukars. Until it was slated to be used in place of one of Cormyr's coronation blades, until Baravar Cloakshadow himself ferreted it away in a bet he had with Brandobaris. The halfling won either way, but lost the blade in the High Forest where Turlag discovered it and gave it to Asper when she happened to pass by, and from there we finally get to Mirt. Yes, that Durnan of the Peerless Blade. Not the original Durnan who he was named after (cause true Realms fans would know that). And he's not actually a relative of Piergeiron, he just took the name for convenience. And the sword is actually not magical, having long been stripped of magic by spelljamming elves (somewhere between the dukars and Cormyr).
I know this was sort of written "in jest" but, frankly, was completely unnecessary. You're acting as if everyone is saying these Iconics simply MUST have a connection to THE MIGHTY (as you put it earlier). No one is saying that AT ALL. I myself said it should be limited to 2 or 3 at most...and others have reiterated that fact. As Markustay said earlier, it's a nice tie-in to the past to marry the editions. It's nothing more than a nod to the past characters (many of them Iconic to us...like the Knights of Myth Drannor idea I presented earlier). And I never put forth an idea to tie any new Iconics to THE MIGHTY, only to (2 or 3) past characters who helped shape the Realms. It adds a bit of depth to the idea of Iconics. And that's not to say that one must have a connection to anyone to have depth (so please don't put those 'words' in my mouth, as the saying goes).
quote:
His father was a merchant and his mother a mage. After his mother died of fever, his father remarried years later to a Halruaan sky-ship mage. It was she who taught him magic. She was nice to him, but he always felt she was on the run from something. One day, mysterious wizards caught up to them and slew her with powerful spells. He was hopelessly out-magicked and so he ran. His father blames him for not helping his step-mother. His father fell into a stupor, ran afoul of Sembian rivals and his business crumbled. Eventually his father passed away in a haze of alcohol and narcotics, provided by his Amnian "friends" who he partnered with to compete with the Sembians. These Amnians also managed to take the Turami wizard's inheritance. They forced him out onto the streets, but by then he was capable of taking care of himself. One day he will swoop in with his fortune acquired from his adventures to buy them out of house and home. He will spare their families though, because our wizard has a sense of justice and honesty. He is actually fine with Sembians, as they bested his father in fair business practices. He also spends his time uncovering more about his step-mother's murderers, he found they were Zhentarim Sky-Mages. As he learns more, he will one day strike out against them to bring them to justice, but for now he is a simple wizard-for-hire.
THIS is a very nice backstory with no ties to past characters. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have been interesting with such a connection. The two arguments aren't mutually exclusive. Meaning, both sides of this coin have merit. And I see no reason why it's unreasonable to create a 2 or 3 Iconics (out of a minimum of 10 if standard classes are used) with connections to past NPCs.
quote:
I don't understand where a lot of the wariness stems from.
Well, actually, you seem to be the wary one.  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 14 Jan 2014 02:16:19 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 02:10:39
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| On another note: Markustay's desire for a nod to 1e through Thunderstorm. Since Thunderstorm has been canonized in the Realms (according to Wooley, I'm assuming he's correct), why not have an Iconic in his image? A descendant that looks a good deal like he did, but with new artwork and, of course, a new name. I vote Stormthunder. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 02:27:23
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| I, at least, did not intend to be resistant, Dark Wizard. Overall, I like the idea. I don't think most people here have been resistant either. We're all mostly on the same page, just discussing whether, if there are FR iconics, they should be more or less tied to previous lore, whether they should be NPCs or a special kind of character like in PF, and so on. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 14 Jan 2014 02:27:56 |
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Idea: 5E/Next Iconics
