| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 02:44:47
|
It will be whatever it is - we can only hope for the best. if they drop the ball, i am sure someone ese will pick it up and run with. Thats what happens when a company lets anther one-up them.
BTW, did anyone else happen to hear Paizo is hiring? Several positions... digital graphics designers included. Wonder what they might be working on, hmmmm? The announcement was just made today. I doubt WotC are the only ones monitoring our conversations here. Half their freelancers even hangout here (because they were FR guys first). I mentioned how the maps are the one thing they aren't doing right, and we want WotC to give us a digital, zoomable map, and suddenly they are making a push in the electronic media dept. Its probably just coincidence, but Wizbro better stop looking over their shoulder, because Paizo's already one step ahead of them. You know what they call the guys who come in second? The losers.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
In other news, Markus and I are still apparently sharing a brain... but he got all the politeness. 
Moi? POLITE? I better work on that... pick a fight with someone... strangle a kitten or three...
I know... we can fix that right now.......
Thought better of it...
Nevermind... nothing to see here... move along.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2014 04:10:28 |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 06:48:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It will be whatever it is - we can only hope for the best. if they drop the ball, i am sure someone ese will pick it up and run with. Thats what happens when a company lets anther one-up them.
BTW, did anyone else happen to hear Paizo is hiring? Several positions... digital graphics designers included. Wonder what they might be working on, hmmmm? The announcement was just made today. I doubt WotC are the only ones monitoring our conversations here. Half their freelancers even hangout here (because they were FR guys first). I mentioned how the maps are the one thing they aren't doing right, and we want WotC to give us a digital, zoomable map, and suddenly they are making a push in the electronic media dept. Its probably just coincidence, but Wizbro better stop looking over their shoulder, because Paizo's already one step ahead of them. You know what they call the guys who come in second? The losers.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
In other news, Markus and I are still apparently sharing a brain... but he got all the politeness.
Moi? POLITE? I better work on that... pick a fight with someone... strangle a kitten or three...
I know... we can fix that right now.......
Thought better of it...
Nevermind... nothing to see here... move along.
Paizo may be hiring digital graphics folks for the computer game, which was Kickstarter'ed last year. It is not necessarily an indicator of any other digital offerings. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 13:30:16
|
I realize that, I just find the timing interesting - you'd have thought they'd have 'staffed-up' already for something that long ago. But you're right, it like 99.9% that this is just the normal hiring a rapidly expanding company does.
You know... unlike other companies that are constantly letting people go.
I just hoped to light a fire under their arses - you don't get to be 'top dog' (again) by sitting on your laurels, twiddling your thumbs. You have to grab the bull by the horns. Gamers (and all geek-related fans) are all a little ADD - we always want something new to look at. You give 'em something to drool over, and you got them hooked. We need some 'digital crack' right about now.
If Paizo comes out with the kind of map we are craving for their Golarion setting, that won't be another nail in the coffin, that will be the first shovel full of dirt. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2014 13:30:51 |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 00:26:16
|
Yes, undo the squishing, and I believe they are -- a video mentioned basing the new maps on the Old Grey Box.
I'm not sure about the zoomable thing. If that happened, the anti-Realms claim that every square foot was detailed would actually be true, and I think that's a too-literal presentation of a secondary world.
I don't know what maps Ed uses himself these days, but it's possible that if the new maps were redone from his originals like they were in 1986 you'd gain a lot of details like the places you see in Karen Wynn Fonstad's atlas but nowhere else.
It would be a useful improvement just to have 1":30-mile maps that incorporated all the information in the Volo's Guide maplets.
I'd like maps that look hand-drawn rather than computer-drawn. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 04:28:13
|
Every time I've asked Ed a geography question based upon some offhand mention in some obscure source, he has ALWAYS used the Fonstad atlas and Maps to relate to me the exact position of something.
Now, that doesn't mean HE uses Karen Fonstad's wonderful maps - he uses HIS maps. He has also stated (somewhere I believe public, probably his thread) that those maps are the closest published ones to his originals (because she worked off of is originals). So, since I do not have access to his originals, but I do have access to the closest thing possible, that is what he uses to relay the info.
It was his world first - why would he bother to reference anyone else's maps when he has his own, and already knows where everything is? He's a passable artist and cartographer as well.
And I do recall them saying something about going back to the OGB maps (but with new art). Maybe at gen2012, not sure. However, that was two years ago, and things change. The latest map by Mike Schley looks like it was based off of the 4e map, so that gives me some trepidation, but 5e hasn't arrived yet, and that map was for a module leading up to The Sundering (so everything could be different after that world-altering event). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2014 04:29:00 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 05:17:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I'm not sure about the zoomable thing. If that happened, the anti-Realms claim that every square foot was detailed would actually be true, and I think that's a too-literal presentation of a secondary world.
Well, we're obviously not saying we want to zoom down to the point of counting blades of grass... For me, at least, the idea zoom would be to from the whole continent of Faerūn fitting on my screen, down to maybe everything within a day or two's ride of a specific city, and then clicking on the city would bring up the city map. Again, not zoomable down to every cobblestone, but maybe a bit bigger than the city maps presented in most prior sources -- give me something page-sized, at least. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 07:36:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
...the anti-Realms claim that every square foot was detailed would actually be true...
I know you're probably being facetious here, but it amuses me greatly because this line was used (in a video interview, with a completely straight face) by some people who are supposedly pro-Realms. It boggles the mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I'd like maps that look hand-drawn rather than computer-drawn.
I too love hand-drawn maps. I'm not going to argue against this, and I'm also not trying to beat a dead horse... or even injure a horse; just noting that hand-drawn maps are art, and they should be sold as posters. A new electronic atlas could be so much better than the old one that it's not fair to even call them the same thing. Note to self: come up with a catchy new name for it. Point is, a computerized map would give us oodles of functionality that paper maps lack, while still looking nice... perhaps not *artwork* nice, but we can have awesome posters for that, which can be adored even when the computer is turned off. Anyway, perhaps enough "noting" from me.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He has also stated (somewhere I believe public, probably his thread) that those maps are the closest published ones to his originals
I remember this, because it was in response to my question about the names of the Ice Lakes. I still do a happy dance when reading that post.
Wooly's zoom extents seem totally cool to me. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 18:55:50
|
Another thread had me thinking more about FR's maps (actually, I NEVER stop thinking about FR's maps)
We really do NEED to have different maps representing different eras, not done by 'the worlds greatest artist', but by someone extremely familiar with ALL the lore.
You see, here's the thing - most of the authors aren't as familiar with ALL the lore as we are. Not knocking them - its an insane amount to digest, and no matter how much you read, you will NEVER 'know it all' (I learn 5 or 6 new things everyday, sometimes from sources I have already read several times). Thats why we need ACCURATE references.
Have you any idea how many times I will read something that tells me WHEN a certain piece of terrain was created, and then some writer references that place.... centuries (sometimes milenia!) before it was there? It has happened far more times then many of you realize. For example, in 'the great scheme of things', the Moonsea is fairly recent. Oh, there was something there (and it was called the Dragonsea, BTW), but it was NOT that enormous trench we see today. I can guarantee most of the authors are unaware of that fact, because I see them referencing the Moonsea all the time, in its current form, going WAY back in time! Writers can't just look at the most recent map of the Realms, and then talk about it in a story written thousands of years ago - it doesn't work that way.
We NEED maps based on various epochs (we could use the eras from the GhotR, but even those might be a little off - for example, Imaskar's terrain changed drastically during ts existence). This way, when an author wants to talk abut something that happened hundreds (or thousands!) of years ago, he doesn't make mention of a lake - or forest, or mountain, etc - that wasn't there at the time! They don't even need to share them with US, and they can be ugly as hell - that part does not matter. All that matters is accuracy, for the sake of continuity. Even a book like Ring of Winter, we have James Lowder talking about the Cormyr of a thousand years ago as if its exactly the same as it is today. That was so jarring, to me (after reading the Cormyr novels, and knowing its history). It wasn't even a country back then - more like a group of primitive, allied (for mutual protection) settlements/colonies.
As a hint (I've mostly been keeping to myself for awhile), ANYTHING with the words 'star' or 'moon' in it was created by a tearfall!!! Check the lore - go as far back as you can - and you will see that. Those mountains in the High Forest? Thats a damn meteor! The old sources describes a shallow-impact crater perfectly. The forest has been hiding one of Faerūn's greatest secrets all along.
And don't even get me started about the Tunlands. Did you know the two swamps were at different altitudes? How the hell they are now connected is anybody's guess (It magic!)  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2014 19:10:03 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 20:08:25
|
Another idea - one I think we may have discussed already, but it should be related to a 'map reset' (which is really what we are talking about here).
What to keep, and what to throw away? If we do get back EVERYTHING, do we want all the accompany lore, AS IS? Would we prefer they look over every last little bit, and tweak the lore to better fit the setting (and other lore)? This is not the usual 'what would we like to see in 5e?" type of question - I am talking specifically about the geography.
The thing that really jumps to mind here is the 'Veilstone Peaks' region. The FRIA placed it as close to where it was described as being, and i have since tried to tweak the heck out of that tiny region to make it fit... bt the truth is, it just doesn't. Not size-wise, and certainly not lore-wise. It just doesn't work way over there, on the other side of the Tunlands. Its supposed to be part of Cormyr, which makes no sense (except to someone who barely knows the setting, and perhaps read the rough outline on Cormyr in 1e).
Unitl I had gotten a copy of the FRIA, I had thought about moving it, into the region between the Dalelands and Cormyr, right around Tilverton. It would be a better fit, at any rate. It could be shunted north, or east, but still right around there, right on the edge of Cormyr-proper (and not on the other side of a 'marches' region). Not that that module was very good, but if we plan to keep everything (as they say they are), then at least let us tweak some of the lore; file-off the 'rough edges', so to speak. Thus, that area becomes the 'Stone Vale', and the surrounding mountains would be referred to as the 'Veilstone Peaks' (just those few around it). It fits the region, and more importantly, it fits the lore.
Another prime example are the Whamite isles - yeesh... what a mess there.
Should we do things like that, or rather, should they? Since The Sundering is given us something of a reset, should we fix the small things, or should we just swallow the good with the bad? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 21:03:23
|
@Markus: I'm pretty sure we (those of us who feel strongly about anything) are each going to have to make our own changes. Even in the cases where any two of us agree on what should be changed, we're going to have different ideas for the methods and results.
I think the biggest thing I'd like WotC to "get" is how to make tweaks easier for us. They have a frustrating tendency to base subsequent developments on previous ones in a way that makes more work for those of us who customize things. For one obvious example: the TOT could have been written in a way that let each campaign determine the results. Subsequent products could have been written to avoid ironclad assumptions.
Geography is a tougher issue because we really don't want it to be unclear where things are. In that case the designers just need to do their homework and be familiar with the map so that newly developed areas fit where they're supposed to.
In cases like the Whamite Isles... I can respect the option of having a slapstick sort of board game feel, but it shouldn't be just the islands. Develop a line of completely optional products that creates that feel in other areas of the setting. If sales stink, then don't invest money in that line but leave it open for fans who like it to maybe write and share licensed products. WotC wouldn't be spending any money on its development and the fans couldn't sell it for a profit but they could still share it and it would create publicity for the brand and everyone would be happy.
I don't know if WotC has learned anything from the destruction of geography as well as lore that went into 4e. I think I might be the only one who's really pissed about the Old Empires being destroyed and finds the story of the event so utterly pitiful. My very public statements on 4e make it unlikely that any WotC employee will ever listen to anything I say.
But I'm hoping that someone in a position of power has had an epiphany or eight. RSEs would be a lot less offensive if they were optional, with subsequent products not necessarily demanding that the events transpired in everyone's campaign. That applies equally to storyline and geography. |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 21:17:34
|
| Well MT, we can only hope that the designers regularly read these threads to 'spot' the problems that exist in the lore and the geography so they can change things as needed. However, with deadlines coming down to crunch time, I doubt they will get to everything. That said, they can always update the map in a year or two to fix errors we/they spot along the way. Frankly, I stopped worrying about most of these things years ago...gives one a headache after awhile. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 21:22:30
|
quote:
I think I might be the only one who's really pissed about the Old Empires being destroyed and finds the story of the event so utterly pitiful.
No, you're not and I hope that region is reset by Ao (along with Halruaa, Lantan, Luiren etc). That is all as I try to refrain from negative comments these days. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 21:35:26
|
No, plenty of us are pissed about the Old Empires as well, but there was just SO MUCH to be pissed-off about, that we had to pick our battles (I've only recently learned there is such a thing as 'anger threshold' - I actually ran-out of the ability to get mad at stuff because of some RW stuff that was going down. It was like I used up my quota, or something).
So we had to spread all that hostility around, and sadly (maybe), the Old Empires didn't get its fair share.
Everything that fell into that category of "fans aren't happy with this" got obliterated, when all we wanted was for them to fix it. Thats like going to the doctor and telling him your hand hurts, and he hacks off everything below the elbow. Thats one way of fixing stuff...
Anyhow, this Sundering Thingy is the perfect opportunity to go back and do it right this time. I would have really preferred a full-blown reset, but since we aren't getting one of those, then I at least want them to put some effort in correcting everything that was wrong, not just throwing it away. We lost some very good stuff with all the bad.
I would hope that if they do bring back the Old Empires in some iteration, they also re-think some of the older problems along with it. We don't mind Egypt-like cultures, or Egyptian-like gods (most settings have 'em), but don't make them ACTUAL Egyptians!
My fix for that was simple - Toril didn't get Mulan culture from Earth, Earth got it from Toril! Thats how you fix all that derivation - you embrace the 'ancient astronauts' way of thinking. Take the whole 'Stargate' thing and run with it. The Imaskari - along with various other 'super races' - could have had colonies on many (D&D) worlds, and thats where we get all our cross-pollination. Don't have it where everything was 'stolen from Earth' - thats making s**t run uphill, IMHO. Have it where Earth itself is just one of many worlds 'polluted' by ancient civilizations. You have Blackmoor, Imaskar, Suel, the Nithians (who are the perfect Egyptian-precursors, BTW), etc - all of whom could have had amazing magi-tech civilizations and spread themselves all throughout the multiverse.*
Don't make everything about being from Earth, make Earth just one piece of an amazing puzzle. 'The Ancients' is a fantastic and recurring trope in fiction, and we should use the heck out of it. Ra? He was just some archmage that let power go to his head. Thats how you spin it. The name of the setting is The forgotten Realms, and yet, the writers keep forgetting precisely what that means, or worse, using it the wrong way. Add to that basic premise the lore we have now - that parts of Toril every-so-often get swapped with places from other worlds, and its pure win. Toril becomes the ultimate amalgam (kitchen sink?) setting, because thats part of its nature - little bits of everything wind-up there, and then little bits of it wind-up everywhere else. Its a two-way process: Not everything had to start on Earth (or another world) first.
Anyhow, we've digressed quite a bit from the original topic, but it all fits together: If they just bring back Unther and Mulhorand whole-cloth, then we are stuck with the original problems of derivation. We needed a change, but not the ones 4e gave us.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2014 21:50:54 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 21:47:42
|
*Thinking on this premise a bit more, I think every world should have had at least one 'Ancients' race that found a way to leave it, and populate others. Whether through technology, magic, naturally-occurring portals, spelljamming - WHATEVER. Those cultures - "The Ancients" would have been our forbears, and everyone elses. The D&D universe should be built on top of the bones of an older one, and then everything just works. No need for any sort of corny interloping explanation - everything is related because everything IS related. Even Star Trek used that to explain why there are humans (or damn close to them) on so many worlds.
So both cultures and their attendant gods could wind up everywhere - the 'pantheons' are actually the survivors of those super-races; the last of their kind. In Marvel comics terminology, the 'Elders of the Universe'. It fits, no? Perhaps when a great race dies-out, the few remaining get all the power from the others (they absorb their 'soul stuff'. That could even help explain D&Deities like Kiaransalee - she is 'the last of her kind', and thats canon.
And then what would such ego-maniacs do? Why, re-create their lost civilizations, of course. Thats why so many worlds have an Egypt-like region, and so on. Deities are just super-humans (or in OD&D terminology, 'Immortals'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2014 00:51:40 |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 21:49:06
|
Well I never had a problem with the Old Empires...it was one of the best areas on Faerun IMO. I just did most of my gaming in the North because it got most of the attention. If they would just learn to spread the love in the setting they just might discover that all of Faerun has just as much to offer fans. They could do APs for various regions, for instance (and APs do not have to be RSEs, btw).
Now that I've digressed a little...as to the areas that got nuked for the 4e iteration of the Realms...things could be returned/reset without bringing it all back 100%. Meaning, Mulhorand could be redone but it doesn't have to look exactly how it did in earlier iterations. It could be tweaked for 5e (along with other areas of Faerun). And with that, I must take a break...because every time I get to thinking about how much was lost for 4e I start to get a little angry. Cheers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 22:08:15
|
I was just thinking, if they do go back to the old geography (and add-in all the newer stuff we've acquired over the years), there was forest in the Old Empires that got 'lost' in 3e. The Forest was Maerchwood, and it existed between the Methwood and the Akanamere, in southern Chessenta. Thats one of those lost places we need to get back (along with all of Shareach!)
And then I decided to check the map Mike Schley did for an article in 4e - the one on that same region - and sure enough, that forest is back, right where it belongs. Thank you Brian James. 
Sadly, the rest of that region wasn't so lucky.... 
*Grammatical Correction. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2014 00:49:09 |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 22:22:53
|
Just gonna throw out a wish I'm officially making to Santa...but I would like a full-blown Mike Schley poster map of Faerun from the Sword Coast to the edge of the Hordelands and the Great Glacier to include the entirety of Zakhara...in a map tube, that is frameable. I would buy AT LEAST two of them (one to frame and one to spread out on a table when needed). And THEN I want one that includes the Hordelands all the way to Kara-Tur and its islands to the far east.
Oops, I forgot to add that the Sword Coast includes the Moonshaes, Rauthym, etc. Cheers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 11 Jan 2014 22:32:38 |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 02:28:33
|
quote:
*Thinking on this premise a bit more, I think every world should have had at least one 'Ancients' race that found a way to leave it, and populate others. Whether through technology, magic, naturally-occurring portals, spelljamming - WHATEVER. Those cultures - "The Ancients" would have been our forbears, and everyone elses. The D&D universe should be built on top of the bones of an older one, and then everything just works. No need for any sort of corny interloping explanation - everything is related because everything IS related. Even Star Trek used that to explain why there are humans (or damn close to them) on so many worlds.
So both cultures and their attendant gods could wind up everywhere - the 'pantheons' are actually the survivors of those super-races; the last of their kind. In Marvel comics terminology, the 'Elders of the Universe'. It fits, no? Perhaps when a great race dies-out, the few remaining get all the power from the others (they absorb their 'soul stuff'. That could even help explain D&Deities like Kiaransalee - she is 'the last of her kind', and thats canon.
And then what would such ego-maniacs do? Why, re-create their lost civilizations, of course. Thats why so many worlds have an Egypt-like region, and so on. Deities are just super-humans (or in OD&D terminology, 'Immortals').
How would you go about adding this to your homebrew? I myself have an ancient race in my homebrew but, first, they never actually left and, second, they did not become god-like beings. I'm actually not sure I completely like the idea of them becoming gods. My homebrew creation myth centers on a supreme being who created multiple tiers of beings to 'balance the multiverse' to keep it running properly.
I try to join as many disparate religious beliefs as I can into my homebrew. Thus I have a Supreme Cosmic Being, but I also have a Trinity-type being (the Supreme Being is, essentially, Balance and the other two are Order and Chaos...they make up a Trinity in which none can exist without the others...although Balance could 'recreate' the others before it ceased to exist or is at least aware that it would all come back into existence over time). Below them are other cosmic beings that are above even Ao's pay grade. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2014 : 07:49:10
|
Kind of WAY off topic at this point, but I figure they are like the Amberites from The Chronicles of Amber, except in my version, there is more then one family of 'Planeswalkers' - usually one per worlds - and those are all the pantheons we are familiar with (and not so familiar with).
So on a LOT of worlds these 'families' (of powerful beings) gained the ability to 'walk between worlds', by whatever method. In some cases they are actually related, and in others, they are only related in that they originated from the same place (because most pantheons ARE a mixture of both).
Thus, when different families (pantheons) 'meet', it becomes a competition to see who 'gets control' of a world. In some settings that means the entire pantheon, and in others perhaps just a few members. They managed to figure-out the 'trick' of taking worship and turning it into raw power (no trick really - when a large amount of people are pouring 'positive energy' in your direction, you become 'empowered' - its just a normal mechanism of the universe). In fact, in RW, thats how I feel 'the power of prayer' works. 'Soul stuff' and 'Psychic energy' are all one-and-the-same, IMHO.
Now there are beings that were gods way before any mortals became deities - those would be the Primordials, Elder Evils, etc. In Marvel comics terms, those are the 'cosmic entities'. They normally don't get involved in 'The Great Game' the deities are all playing, but on occasion they get sucked into those conflicts.
Now, how does this all relate to the Forgotten Realms? Simple - the Malaugrym are the Realms family that does precisely this. Its just that Elminster won't let them 'play god', so they are quite pissed off. There could also be even more ancient beings from the other Creator races (although having existed 'before death' means they were never mortal, so they may fall-out in a special category- the 'first immortals'). Thus, archfey are just the fey version of deities, and we should also have arch-Batrachi (slaad?), arch-sauroids (could Ubtao be one?), arch-aeriee (Not sure what that would be - something akin to the Nagpa of Mystara?) In fact, arch-anything could simply mean "a deity who was never mortal".
Come to think of it - the Chosen are own little family of 'little gods' as well.
Edited due to weird double-post |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 21:22:17 |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2014 : 19:13:36
|
| To OPs questions my answer is yes. |
|
|
|
Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 20:52:31
|
Kind of a side discussion, but this reminds me that the Malaugrym, the Phaerimm, and the Sharn are some of the most notable aberrantion type beings in the Realms. It's unfortunate the aboleth were elevated as the big aberrant baddies. Since aboleths are in the OGL, it meant Paizo was free to use them for their setting's primordial aberration masterminds, while the unique Realms monsters take a back seat to the aboleths. One of the criticisms of the Realms is that it's generic. WotC should ponder on that point for a bit.
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 21:35:21
|
Well, someone decided to bring their homebrewish version of FR into the canon Realms, even though we had aberrations a'plenty, and all part of the setting's deep, rich past.
But whatever, I hope they go back to Abeir where they belong, and take their city-sized version of The Nautilus with them. 
On the other hand, I never really cared for the Sharn or Phaerimm, either. The Malaugrym I like, because they fit with many of my multiverse concepts (each world having its own, powerful family of 'little gods').
Back to stretching the map: Anyone keeping score? Seems like most folks would prefer the old layout (talking JUST geography here, NOT lore), but since many great maps were produced in 4e (by Mike Schley), and D&Dnext is going to be 4.1eFR, and even the B&W map Mr.Schley produced for the Murder in Badur's gate displays the 3e/4e layout, I truly doubt we will be getting-back the 1e/2e layout.
In which case, they need to move the equator further south, OR say that everything north of the Spine of the World is on a high plateau (which would be easiest, and therefor best). The climate changes a bit too dramatically from one side of the mountains to the other, so it would also be the most logical (a change in altitude).
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jan 2014 21:38:01 |
|
|
|
Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 21:47:18
|
| Why would 'they' have to move the equator/put everything north of the Spine on a plateau? |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 10:08:51
|
quote:
D&Dnext is going to be 4.1eFR
Meaning? Are you saying that there is concrete evidence that some of the major changes made just prior and during the SP aren't going to be fixed? If so, I will have little reason to purchase 5e material. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 03:19:33
|
The 4e world started as of 1479 DR. From what they said at Gencon 2012, the timeline will be moved slightly forward once again. I assume by that, they mean the same sort of thing we got between 1e and 2e, or 2e and 3e - about 5-10 years. Not matter WHAT changes they make, or what they bring back, thats the 4e timeline right there, and we are only moving a bit forward from that, hence my '4.1eFR comment. The rules will be D&Dnext, the setting 4.1. As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as '5e'.
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
Why would 'they' have to move the equator/put everything north of the Spine on a plateau?
Because Ten Towns falls out at the same latitude as London now, and thats not nearly as cold as the novels make it out not be. In 1e/2e, Icewind Dale was MUCH further north, even further then the southern edge of the Great Glacier. The 3e map changes dropped it way south, so its kind of silly right now.
We know the size of the planet, and we now the precise latitude of Waterdeep, so everything else is easy to calculate. The simplest fix is to simply say everything north of the mountain range is at a higher altitude. If we move the equator, that would also push Waterdeep further north, which would be fine, except it is inconsistent with the info we have about its latitude. Icewind Dale is not above the Arctic Circle. In fact, its nowhere near it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2014 18:19:34 |
|
|
|
Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 18:05:55
|
| What is Toril's axial tilt? |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 18:37:36
|
Doesn't really matter. Even if it had no axial tilt (which it does, but I'm not sure if that has ever been given an exact figure), Icewind Dale was moved far south in 3e, so its not at the same altitude the RAS stories were written at (originally). On the other hand, having a greater axial tilt would give the planet a much wider temperate zone then Earth has, so thats out of the question.
Doesn't matter what arguments are presented, facts are facts, and its a fact that the maps were drastically altered between editions. When you superimpose an Earth map over the one of Toril (which we do have), you can see that Ten Towns weather doesn't make much sense, unless we explain it somehow. Putting everything north of the mountain range at a higher altitude is the simplest explanation. Why convolute things? Often, the simplest explanation is the correct one.
The globe on my FRIA doesn't work any more. Does anyone still have a working copy, or remember if the globe spun without an axial tilt? Not that that really matters, since that product was just a map reference, and not any sort of scientific approach to Toril, but I'm curious.
Spalljammer/Realmspace doesn't provide any of this info either, which is a shame. I guess they didn't think information of that sort wouldn't be important to spacefarers.
I'd love to see someone do a scientific approach, explaining the weather, ocean currents, and all other phenomena, but I doubt we'll ever see that - to much would be very hard to explain. A couple of pages like that in the 5e campaign guide would be awesome, and alleviate these sorts of arguments.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 20:22:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doesn't really matter. Even if it had no axial tilt (which it does, but I'm not sure if that has ever been given an exact figure), Icewind Dale was moved far south in 3e, so its not at the same altitude the RAS stories were written at (originally). On the other hand, having a greater axial tilt would give the planet a much wider temperate zone then Earth has, so thats out of the question.
Doesn't matter what arguments are presented, facts are facts, and its a fact that the maps were drastically altered between editions. When you superimpose an Earth map over the one of Toril (which we do have), you can see that Ten Towns weather doesn't make much sense, unless we explain it somehow. Putting everything north of the mountain range at a higher altitude is the simplest explanation. Why convolute things? Often, the simplest explanation is the correct one.
The globe on my FRIA doesn't work any more. Does anyone still have a working copy, or remember if the globe spun without an axial tilt? Not that that really matters, since that product was just a map reference, and not any sort of scientific approach to Toril, but I'm curious.
Spalljammer/Realmspace doesn't provide any of this info either, which is a shame. I guess they didn't think information of that sort wouldn't be important to spacefarers.
I'd love to see someone do a scientific approach, explaining the weather, ocean currents, and all other phenomena, but I doubt we'll ever see that - to much would be very hard to explain. A couple of pages like that in the 5e campaign guide would be awesome, and alleviate these sorts of arguments.
I don't recall a tilt to the globe. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Demzer
Senior Scribe
879 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 20:54:03
|
Weeee!!! My search fu is strong today!
This here, from this thread http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7036&SearchTerms=axial :
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
'Tis here:-
quote:
3.13. Does Toril have time zones?
From: Trent Raley
Toril
* Circumference = 23,400 approx
* 24 time zones
* Axial tilt is ~ 19-25 degrees
* Prime Meridian is Myth Drannor
* Other time zones are based on meridian lines of globe function in Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas (two per square).
* Time zones are 975 miles wide.
Nit-pick -- that is 975 miles wide at the equator of course. This will dwindle down to zero as you approach the poles.
And Bryon Wischstadt added:
You should have been a Luka's Bar during GenCon when we worked this out! (I took notes) :) Something Trent didn't mention (we're co-DMs) is that with gates transporting the user instantly (as ::ahem:: *most* do) we got to thinking about adding another bit of realism to the game. We wanted to know what time of day it was when the party arrived in their new destination halfway across Faerun. From the player's perspective, they step through a gate mid-morning and arrive at a place that is still dark... this is a nice cue to the players that they have moved quite a distance. (They don't know the destinations of the gates) As you can see it's quick and relatively simple--add 2 hrs per grid on the atlas--and you'll end up with something kinda cool from both the DM and players' perspectives. As Trent said "Hope this helps"... Enjoy!
Also in one of the Ed Scrolls i remember a poster doing the math and posting his conclusions on various physical characteristics of Toril, my search fu is weary and i don't feel like wading through 3 Ed Scrolls with 80-100 pages each (search turned up years 2004, 2005, 2010). If i'm not mistaken this poster was the same that got caught in a back-and-forth debate with Ed over the organization of the War Wizards (the poster thought it was impossible to do things as Vangey did), but i can't remember the screen name. |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 21:12:09
|
| Strange this discussion took a turn toward timezones, axial tilts, etc. as I've been combing the web for information on 'earth-like' planets for a project I'm working on (just how big can a planet be and still support human life anyway)? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
The Realms map in 5E/Next: stretch it back out?
