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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 18:38:17
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The only example of what happens to a suicide in the Faerunian pantheon that I can found is Adon, and well, he's sort of a special case.
Are there any other references to what happens to a suicide on Toril, particularly if it affects their Judgment (capital J)? Are there any gods who specifically abhor or appreciate suicide (not dying in battle or sacrificing oneself for a cause, but killing oneself for other, less noble reasons)?
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 18:53:30
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Nothing definative, but you can infere things from various Gods credoes.
Sharess seems easy going deity to serve so I think she'd understand, Illmater is all about compassion and forgiveness so I think he'd understand too.
Chanteau, Lanthander, and Torm would be harder on it I believe.
Still if the person in question is truely suffering and not just seeking the quick path to paradise, and retains they're faith (this is the key part), then I think they'd still get to paradise.
Evil Gods would be less forgiving. Shar might be supportive of Suicide given her nilistic perpective, but not most evil gods who'd view it as weakness. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 02:27:30
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| In the real tangible way, unless your doing something in the name of your god or goddess, if you are truly in such a horrible situation, and your upper power does nothing for you, and you feel you need to suicide to escape your situation, I think you might be a prime candidate for the wall of the faithless. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 03:40:39
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I think suicide would seem irrelevant to most or all Gods and Goddesses. They might support or oppose it but not punish anyone in the afterlife. Lliira may be the goddess of joy but if someone is so distraught why would she in her divine wisdom then punish that person? It is a topic not discussed in products likely because it is such a controversial issue. People may tell members of their culture the Gods punish suicide to prevent it from happening but I can't see beings of such omniscience generally caring on the whole.
Adon is also a special case because he is a priest. Most residents of the Forgotten Realms worship all or many of the Gods not one above any other. Who judges that?
The Wall of the Faithless is a punishment for those who do not believe in the Gods or do not worship them. Gods can't and don't save every person... Someone killing them self seems entirely unrelated. Our instincts may tell us that suicide is universally immoral but we should not apply our own morals to this fantasy world. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 05:36:46
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Just some thoughts on how I perceive the topic in the Realms...
1. I doubt suicide is 'embraced' in Faerun (it likely is considered disdainful in most cases) but, generally speaking, most Realmsian seem to be portrayed as somewhat Libertarian in their approach to life. Meaning that each is allowed to pursue life as they see fit...and perhaps end it as they see fit as well.
2. I think euthanasia is considered appropriate in circumstances where an individual is infirm or suffering. Some may consider taking one's life (or striking out on some mission they know will kill them) as an honorable way to pass.
3. Some cultures (I'm thinking dwarves here) likely see simple suicide as distasteful. Better to go out 'with your boots on' (and an axe in an orcs skull) than to just kill oneself. Elves are supposed to have the ability to will themselves into Arvandor when they wish to pass from Faerun...but if this is not possible for some reason...I can see them having a sort of celebration with friends & family with the guest of honor taking a drug that allows them to (peacefully) pass into slumber and eventual death. I don't see halflings caring for suicide in any but the most extreme circumstances.
4. As relates to religious orders...it depends. Clergy of Tempus, for instance, would likely see death in battle (speaking of suicide missions here) as the only acceptable death in this case. While clergy of Bane would see it as pure weakness methinks. Mystra has had several Magisters simply seek death at the hands of a 'worthy' mage (or attempt to 'take out' a powerful rival, knowing it would cost them their life) when they tired of the office. You would have to answer the religious aspect on a case-by-faith basis. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 06:15:03
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| Different sects of Churches would have different teachings unless a deity directly dictated rules (which I doubt Tempus would do other than his dogma) The deities of the realms are mysterious as has often been said and not everyone necessarily hears what has been dictated to other followers. A worshipper of Tempus from the North versus Calimshan versus the East would likely believe very different things influenced by their interpretation of the tenets through the lens of their own culture. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 18:09:55
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| why can't we apply our morals to a fantasy? What we assume or have faith in are "real" in a fantasy. Making an argument much easier, when you know fully something is "real", rather then just hoping it is "real". |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 20:19:20
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| Moral values aren't universal. Suicide isn't evil in many cultures even in our own world. Much less a polytheistic world filled with magic, gods, and monsters... |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 13 Jan 2014 20:19:41 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 20:51:44
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Not really interested in the morality of it. Moreso in how it affects your relationship with Kelemvor, then later with your individual god.
But as I asked previously, can anyone think of any other canonical examples of non-self-sacrificial suicide? |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 22:21:10
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| Sorry, no I can't recall any other canon example of suicide in the Realms. I think Kelemvor doesn't concern himself with HOW someone died, only what the disposition of their soul should be...which should be a simple matter of whether they were faithful/less. As to the deity worshiped, I will reiterate it's a case-by-faith basis. We have no canon references for a god's stance on suicide for which I am aware (although I am sure Ed could give you guidelines for such). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 13 Jan 2014 22:22:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 22:41:25
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| I thought Lord Chess was slain and his identity taken over by a devil, or am I confusing that with something else? Or did that devil commit 'suicide' in order to return to the Hells? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 13 Jan 2014 22:41:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 23:35:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I thought Lord Chess was slain and his identity taken over by a devil, or am I confusing that with something else? Or did that devil commit 'suicide' in order to return to the Hells?
You're thinking of Lord Orgauth. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 23:37:30
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Minor invocations to Shar (as the goddess of secrets) are commonly offered by those who wish for forgetfulness; by people of all alignments, sometimes for the kindest reasons. And Shar holds the portfolio of Oblivion. It seems likely, to me, that Shar would claim suicides, souls lost to ultimate despair, nihilism, ennui, and pointless self-destruction.
My understanding is that souls in the Wall endure a long period of Hellish anguish and suffering but eventually lose their essential identities and dissolve into the stuff of the Fugue. I would think this soulstuff is sort of decomposed and recycled, unformatted, eventually reincarnated in the Realms to try again. Which fits well with Jergal/Myrkul/Kelemvor teaching that Death is only part of the natural cycle, not an endpoint in itself. Utter oblivion, removing oneself from the world entirely, seems more like something which interests Shar.
Unless, of course, such souls are claimed as Faithful by other deities who perceive their deaths as great sacrifices or redemption or whatnot instead. I think that being forced, against one‘s own desires, to continue existence as a martyred memory isn‘t a lot better than being stuffed into the Wall. But then, I‘m very self-determinstic, and I obdurately refuse to allow other entities to impose their fates and destinies upon my will - in the Realms, I‘d probably end up worshipping Moraddin. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2014 23:42:23 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 23:52:31
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Arcanamach: You may be thinking of Orgauth... he was replaced by a pit fiend.
About the rest...
I'm not sure about Chess's end but I wouldn't be surprised if depression, confusion, desperation, and frustration overwhelmed him. Which, imo, places him somewhere on the outside fringes of the "curve." He was magically and psychologically dominated by (I'm guessing but I think it likely) several different Manshoons for so long that his will was no longer his own.
I don't recall any references to suicide in published products... I think it's likely that TSR/WotC have veto'd it in stories, since it brings up issues of morality and they've been erring egregiously on the side of keeping everything G-rated for the last 30 years or so.
I don't have too many opinions on suicide within the context of gaming but I would venture a guess that any entity which feeds on the pain suffered by those driven toward suicide would devote its resources toward promoting that suffering.
As far as Kelemvor goes, I think it depends on how much of his mortal character persists into godhood in your game. I would play him as angered by excessive suffering resulting from the interference of powers/fiends/whatever. That's part of how I interpreted his mortal character. Going into godhood I think he would judge each soul as it would have lived in the absence of outside interference, unless such judgment is countermanded by Ao -- an unlikely occurrence. Interference in the lives of others introduces chaos... a person should be judged on who they are, not on what someone else compels them to do or become. That's lawful without respect to good or evil, and I think it fits Kelemvor.
I think Lathander would be particularly opposed to suicide, as he represents beginnings. He would exhort his faithful to not only "think bright thoughts" themselves but to share them proactively with those who might need them on a deeper level than the usual unthinking "have a nice day" way that many people interact with each other.
Asmodeus and other fiends, regardless of attitude toward law/chaos, would all favor suicide... especially in cases where the soul will make a pit stop of undetermined length on the Fugue Plain where it can be claimed by agents of the appropriate lower plane. Another warm body for the Blood War.
Cyric would also look for those with suicidal thoughts, and incessantly whisper his "wisdom" in their minds. If they decide to live, they'll live in madness for the greater glory of Cyric. If they off themselves, he gets to claim their souls because his name is the only one they'll remember. Win-win.
Just my thoughts. I would say have fun, but in this case that seems kinda morbid...
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 19:14:55
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Yeah, the PG-13-ishness of the Realms I would imagine prefers to stay out of the realm of judgment of such a gray topic. But I still enjoy the conversation.
Shar does seem like the safest bet. One would argue that even if you worship Amauntor (yeesh, I almost said Lathander), if you give in to suicide it's tough to say you were devout. Shar would likely take them, sorrow being sweet and all that. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 00:10:25
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Yes, it was Orgrauth I was thinking of earlier. I'm not so sure I disagree with the PG-13 rating of the Realms though. Just my opinion, but I think it's for individual gamers to decide if they want to handle adult themes. I wouldn't like attempting to introduce youngish players to the game and have them reading books covering certain topics, but that's just me. Then again, given the awkwardness of some topics, using the game as a medium to facilitate such discussions might make things easier for those involved. Wow, I can actually see healthy discussions about suicide, sex, sexual abuse, etc. stemming from themes touched upon in DnD.
But then again, given that many are introduced to the game at hobby shops...away from adults who may care deeply for them...such topics could lead to discussions being lead by folks who have less than the kid's interests/health involved. Man, I just talked my way into and right back out of agreement with DnD going beyond its PG-13 rating. Sheesh. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 13:28:54
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There is an obscure succubus demon lord that holds some influence over the domains of suicide and self destruction called Lynkhab, the Lady of Regrets. She's not that powerful though, ever since she failed to gain the position of Queen of Succubi to Malcanthet. It's said she would want to advance to godhood but she's locked in her current form because she only has power over other persons desires, not her own. She often wanders far beyond her layer in the Abyss as she seeks beings powerful enough to slay her.
I doubt Lynkhab would concern herself too much with collecting suicide victems souls in Faeruns Fugue, though. I'm convinced Shars divine minions will have taken those petitioners to her domain long before Lynkhab would have noticed, with the Abyss being metaphysically further away than Shars Tower of Loss in the Shadowplane (or her later astral realm the Towers of Night). |
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Suicide in Faerun
