| Author |
 Topic  |
|
SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 16:18:04
|
I think it's the unfortunate side effect of running out of time. I think RA Salvatore had plans and being forced to fast forward 100 years didn't let him tell the story he wanted.
I realize that doesn't answer the original poster's question, but I think that's all that can be said about it. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 07 Jan 2014 16:21:24 |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 16:53:27
|
Do humans in the Realms breath, Wooly?
Prove to me they do... in canon. And if so, is it the same, precise mixture of air we have here on Earth? Do Torillians require more or less oxygen? Can humans fly? I haven't read anywhere specifically that says they can't.
Sometimes logic takes precedence - not everything can be stated in a book. The orcs had to live somewhere - they did not 'magically appear' out of thin air (except during the Orcgate Wars lol), and it IS canon that the Netherese were slaughtering them by the millions, taking lands that the orcs felt were rightfully theirs. Nothing - IN CANON - tells us when the orcs first appeared on Toril, which means logically they had to 'have always been there'. Modern humans came later, and everyone else was an interloper. Thus, the land belonged to the Orcs. God knows how many Orcs were killed when the elves cast their nasty Evermeet-creating (Sundering) ritual (according to Elaine's Evermeet novel, millions of people died... but 'people' can be anybody, no?)
And weather its true or not, it does not matter. The Orcs believe they were robbed of their rightful land - its part of their culture. 'Truth' doesn't really matter when an entire people believes something their leaders tell them (and I am old-enough to remember the Cold War). At that point - fact or not - belief becomes reality, and they are following the only belief system they have ever known. They feel the are entitled to the stuff other people have (and I am not even going to get into the rather obvious RW examples I could give).
And BTW, I do not believe that orcs 'are good people'. I think they are bad people, in general. Not as bad as drow (or other elves for that matter), but still pretty bad. Not any more so, though, then most human groups. Remember that Cormyr did not always belong to humans - they took it from the elves, who took it from the dragons. How come when orcs do that, its wrong? Because they are so damned ugly?
@SirUrza: Agreed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2014 16:57:06 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 17:22:05
|
Yeah, I'm not buying the "orcs had to be there because we don't know where they came from" argument. They didn't own Toril. They may be interlopers. Hell the ones in the north may just be another breed of orcs from the same world that the orcgate connected to (in much the same way that Mulan, Rashemi, and Damaran stock look different).... They may be a created race, modified by Sarrukh in Thay who pulled over orcs from said world long ago for all we know.... and said created race possibly escaped and fled west (or the Sarrukh moved and dragged them with them). There's a lot of possible explanations that people can pull out of the air.
However, whether they were pushed from their territory is probably true at one point or another (though they may have taken said territory from someone else). It can definitely be stated that the orcs in the north are more belligerent and more prone to an attitude that they "deserve" what other races have worked for. They seek the easy way to get anything they want. They could be taught differently, but their entitlement philosophy (i.e. that they're entitled to whatever they can take) combined with their viewpoint that "might makes right" makes this very unlikely. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 17:39:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Do humans in the Realms breath, Wooly?
Prove to me they do... in canon. And if so, is it the same, precise mixture of air we have here on Earth? Do Torillians require more or less oxygen? Can humans fly? I haven't read anywhere specifically that says they can't.
Not at all the same thing. There is a hell of a difference between biological functions and assertions of prior ownership.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sometimes logic takes precedence - not everything can be stated in a book. The orcs had to live somewhere - they did not 'magically appear' out of thin air (except during the Orcgate Wars lol), and it IS canon that the Netherese were slaughtering them by the millions, taking lands that the orcs felt were rightfully theirs. Nothing - IN CANON - tells us when the orcs first appeared on Toril, which means logically they had to 'have always been there'. Modern humans came later, and everyone else was an interloper. Thus, the land belonged to the Orcs. God knows how many Orcs were killed when the elves cast their nasty Evermeet-creating (Sundering) ritual (according to Elaine's Evermeet novel, millions of people died... but 'people' can be anybody, no?)
Just because there were orcs somewhere in the Realms, it does not mean that land was stolen from them. The last time I checked, there were many, many unoccupied areas in the Realms.
And even if land was stolen from them, if orcs are so inclined towards peace, why did they not move elsewhere? Why didn't they try to coexist before? Why was their only response to make like a swarm of locusts and kill everything in sight?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And weather its true or not, it does not matter. The Orcs believe they were robbed of their rightful land - its part of their culture. 'Truth' doesn't really matter when an entire people believes something their leaders tell them (and I am old-enough to remember the Cold War). At that point - fact or not - belief becomes reality, and they are following the only belief system they have ever known. They feel the are entitled to the stuff other people have (and I am not even going to get into the rather obvious RW examples I could give).
I shan't disagree that it is part of their culture. I will object, though, to the idea that this somehow excuses such behavior on their part. That's what I've been arguing this whole time -- their past actions towards other races are not justified, nor excusable.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And BTW, I do not believe that orcs 'are good people'. I think they are bad people, in general. Not as bad as drow (or other elves for that matter), but still pretty bad. Not any more so, though, then most human groups. Remember that Cormyr did not always belong to humans - they took it from the elves, who took it from the dragons. How come when orcs do that, its wrong? Because they are so damned ugly?
Elves challenged dragons to a duel for ownership of Cormyr, and both sides agreed to participate. Then the elves agreed to relinquish the land to the humans. Again, participation and agreement on both sides.
The last time I checked, orc hordes weren't discussing their intent with the unfortunate victims in their path, and those folks that got in the way didn't agree to be slaughtered. Obould didn't make some sort of arrangement with anyone before he just ran over anyone in his path and decided to take their land.
So why is it wrong when orcs do it? Because they seize by force, against the will of the people there, unlike what happened in Cormyr.
This also further indicates that orcs are not inherently peaceful, as you previously stated. And for someone who thinks that orcs are bad people, you are certainly doing your best to argue otherwise. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 18:17:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Iron fist + discipline + 500k tuskers = no restless tuskers, take out the Red Wizards control of Thay (iron fist + discipline) and you have an orc horde like those in the North.
How and why? They would have too much loot too close for that.
Splitting to small bands and factions under local warlords, oppressing everyone weaker, grabbing as much as they can and squabbling with neighbouring bands? More likely. But would Thayan humans (Black Flame? Completely mundane slavers?) act in a very different way in the same circumstances - especially in parts with less orcs?
quote:
it's Luruar telling the orcs "Alright now you stay here and do what you want and let's try not to fight too much, cya" and everyone hopes the orcs will behave like humans.
Is any way other than waiting until one gets hungry and then raiding a farm "behave like humans"?
It's not like orcs don't have their own problems, especially when they need some surplus for maintainance of centralized power structures, proper military, etc. "Kingdom" is not defined by decorated headgear, and is not something families of hunters/gatherers can pull. Swarming out when overcrowded is easy: there's no concern other than "not enough food - get loot or die quickly". It's not even like life is cheap, there's simply no one to put any price on it in the first place. The moment concerns like "we need to feed the stone workers maintaining the wall" appear, things got to change.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
How it "implies"?
Uh? Orcs have the same religion as humans? Speak the same language?
Where? On Zakhara, yes.
In Zhentil Keep, Thay or Thesk it depends, but the ones who get to speak for others will be able to speak in the way others understand.
Religions vary, but even if they follow Gruumsh, it's not the same as with Talos: "if something is going to make a tribe stronger, do it. If it stands on the way, stuff it ya know where. Elves are twits, yeah, and they'll get what they ask for... but don't jump at them all the time, wait until we are stronger and in a good position to strike". Not very complex concepts.
With local divine "viceroys", like Dukagsh and Obould were, it becomes even easier: "the great hero-ancestor gave us the kingdom and the wisdom, don't blow it now".
quote:
Have the same lifestyle? Practice the same everyday doings?
Do other humans next door? I would not even start on halflings. 
quote:
That's the problem, you can't turn the orcs into humans by giving them a "kingdom".
That's not my problem.  But really, who tries to "turn the orcs into humans"? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 18:58:23
|
yawn I do wonder how some of these discussions end up in elf hate.....
women and children innocent in jhammdaath.... hate to tell you if they were anything like nazi germany, than even the children were NOT innocent.... seee hitler's youth programs.
that said orcs are orcs, one wants more than what they need, then they go on a rampage and horde up and murder, rape and pillage and gather new slaves happens.
the orc hate is well earn.. atleast for the mountain orcs anyway....... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 18:59:22
|
On the bright side, you have me re-reading Evermeet Wooly. Some interesting factoids keep turning up - there's always something new I discover with each re-read.
Orcs did appear before The Battle of God's Theater. Apparently, the early elves (Eladrin... *blech*) were 'troubled' by both dragons and dark elves (both of which seem to have preceded them to Toril), but it says right there in B&W that they biggest threat were the Orcs. As the elves expanded their territories (because the WERE alien invaders), the orcs contented themselves at first to merely raiding. It wasn't until AFTER the involvement of Haeshkarr (a Tanar'ri lieutenant of Lolth's, though without her knowledge) that the orcs military 'science' became more efficient. Weirdly, it took demons to make them more lawful (before that they were disorganized). They attacked and destroyed Ossidian in -24,400 DR! That was LONG before the Sundering and the Crown Wars (which is really quite strange - the order of events in Elaine's novel doesn't follow the timeline in the GHotR all that well here).
I wish I could give page numbers, but my hard-copy burned, and the pdf I am referencing has no page numbers. The pdf Pg.# for that battle - and the first appearance of Kiaransalee - is around 68 or so. Anyhow, here is a pertinent quote from pg.60:quote:
But orcs were nothing if not prolific. From time to time, their numbers grew so great that their clans spilled out of their highland lairs to form a horde that swept like locusts over the land, devoured everything before them.
Apparently, their "locust-like behavior" is something instinctual, and hard-wired in. Not saying that supports any argument either way, I just find it interesting; Orcs have been around even longer then I thought on Toril. In the novel, this takes place after the Crown wars began, but in the GHotR, the Crown Wars take place in a later era! However, the novel only references minor skirmishes with dark Elves up until that point, so what current historians refer to as 'the Crown Wars' may have been the later, greater conflicts, unlike what the people living at that time would have thought (because border-skirmishes are NOT wars, but before open warfare unfolded, the elves may have actually thought that those skirmishes were 'the worst of it'.)
Anyhow, enjoying this re-read immensely. I may even go out later and try to find a hard copy (something probably impossible at my gawd-awful local B&N store).
Its still a page-turner after all these years.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2014 19:08:44 |
|
|
|
Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 21:21:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
snip
Uh? I don't even know what you're talking about here, honestly ...have you read my posts in this thread? What's the point of the nonsensical remarks about thayan orcs? And the bit about the kingdom? You do realize i said the exact same thing? That calling Many Arrows a "kingdom" doesn't make it such and doesn't change the orc society.
The parts where you keep talking about Zakhara and Thesk and Thay make me think either you haven't read my posts or you haven't understood them, i know perfectly well those lands treat orcs differently, i've moved past that point in the discussion and was writing exclusively about the situation in the North. |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 05:14:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
yawn I do wonder how some of these discussions end up in elf hate.....
Elves are disgusting repulsive creatures of the lowest kind with their freaky features, pointy ears and general creepiness. (I genuinely am repulsed by images of Elves, they give me the creeps!)
It seems very important to note that when the realms were invented Orcs were Lawful Evil and their pantheon was Lawful Evil (residing in the LE/LN plane of Acheron) not chaotic evil (and Gruumsh and Talos were not the same entity...)
|
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 08:06:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
It seems very important to note that when the realms were invented Orcs were Lawful Evil and their pantheon was Lawful Evil (residing in the LE/LN plane of Acheron) not chaotic evil (and Gruumsh and Talos were not the same entity...)
Good point!
Might have something to do with the Zhentarim ability to utilize orcs and direct their aggression at others, as well as the Zhent's ability to cross lands infested with orcs to shorten trade routes. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 18:19:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
wait until a few existing hentacle fans get thrown at FR...
Tentacles that engage in sexual acts are, well, what they are, but I doubt we'll see that as part of the Far Realm, much less in the Forgotten Realms.
Come on. We all know a thing doesn't need to be outright pr0n to tell when someone is obviously and consistently tossing one's fetish all over place, no?
Ol' good Gygax himself had weird fascination with the diversity of polearms. Some 3e developer had spiked chains everywhere (even indoors and underground). And it's exactly the same with gluing nonsensical tentacles to everything in sight.
Alienist was just one more attempt at Lovecraftian style in PO:S&M - leaning toward "From Beyond" style and possessions, rather than "OMG they got gills!" ludicrousness or tentacle fetish. Far Realm itself was just one more draft with vaguely Lovecraftian ideas in "The Gates of Firestorm Peak". Then someone reused these two in 3e as an excuse for pulling extra tentacles out of... thin air. This didn't have a niche of its own in multiverse or existing lore, but got randomly taped on.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
then fluo-tattoo (hmmm, never seen a fluorescent tattoo...
I didn't know whether it's a word, but given obvious unoriginality of abovemocked material the number of sources pandering to this fetish, it's unsurprising.
quote:
if it only shows up under certain light, could be interesting)...
Was done too - by Asimov, offhandedly, in the Foundation series (ID tattoo of secret police operatives, visible only in polarized light).
quote:
then hentacle (ok, at least I've seen at least one of these anime' movies.. didn't know the term)....
This actually being a "term" is surprising to me. Mainly because in the context where it would be used often (other than as a reference to that very context) "tentacle" already means the same rather unambiguously. But really, you need to look up a portmanteau with one letter out of overlap?
quote:
now I'm on Paizo's web site looking up some card game apparently named Hentacle
A-a-and unsurprising again. 
quote:
desperately is telling me I shouldn't buy it because its so adult (which is a great way to get me to buy it just to see what the hell is in it since its so cheap).
I can explain it in two words, and they rhyme with 'Pentacle Rex.' (c)  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 19:24:20
|
It seems as though Orcs were originally intended to be more similar to Tolkienesque Orcs rather than the Warcraft-esque Orcs they have become. Organized tribes who go to battle (in "hordes" but still organized) versus wild roiling bands. The behaviour of lawful evil humanoids (Orcs, goblins, hobgoblings, kobolds) was starkly different from of chaotic evil humanoids (Ogres, gnolls, trolls) Orcs lived in larger groups because they were orderly whereas ogres/gnolls lived in smaller groups because of their chaotic nature.
It was suggested earlier that chaotic evil beings can form groups, as evidenced by drow, but that hardly seems like a good comparison. Drow don't have kingdoms or empires - only city states that are cohesive only because of adherence to religious codes. Drow are also later described as being "usually neutral evil". Constant infighting does not usually lead to powerful nations, drow seem evidence of this as they are described hamstringing themselves with constant fighting and intrigue. While lawful/chaotic are not inherently better or worse it seems more likely that lawful beings would form nations while chaotic beings would seek to be more independent. The Kingdom of Many Arrows makes more sense if the Orcs are primarily lawful. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 08 Jan 2014 19:28:47 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 19:40:48
|
I've never really gotten a lawful feel from orcs... At best, I'd go for neutral evil for them, myself, with chaotic tendencies.
Of course, this could be influenced by my preference for alignments -- of the evil alignments, I strongly favor NE. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 20:40:52
|
I look at orcs of the North as being more chaotic compared to their kin elsewhere that are more lawful. Nothing says that a race can't have different cultures in different parts of the world...you need only look at the real world for comparison. So, in the North, orcs may follow the religious teachings of Gruumsh more literally, whereas in the South (and East) they do not or have abandoned Gruumsh altogether in favor of other deities. One could even assume there are heresies that exist within the faith that lead some orcs to interpret the teachings of Gruumsh differently or, perhaps more likely, that some charismatic orc leaders are able to lead their people on a different path (which is what Obould did, IMO). Given time, Obould may have been able to lead his people to a more peaceful existence (though I don't think this was his plan at all...he sought personal power only and was rewarded when he became an Exarch).
Personally, I would have preferred Obould ascended to godhood with his own ethos entirely. It would have created a schism in the Northern orcs with some continuing to follow Gruumsh while others were whipped into religious frenzy over the idea of their 'glorious leader' becoming a god. Many-Arrows would have been reduced in size...but I think they would have held their own against the followers of Gruumsh due to Many-Arrows being more 'lawful' and continuing to keep peace with the Silver Marches. Now I need to start making notes on this idea...to see where it leads me. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 08 Jan 2014 20:42:58 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 21:35:19
|
Well, as a huge fan of the scro, my approach (as mentioned earlier) would have been to have Obould and his lieutenants be scro, instead of orcs. The scro, for those not familiar, are a Spelljammer race descended from orcs -- but they are highly militaristic and intelligent, to the point that many of them learn the elvish language so that they can insult elves in their native tongue as they kill them.
I think a group of scro could readily whip some tribes of orcs into shape and form an army capable of doing what Obould did, and it would have offered a better explanation for the transformation from rampaging horde to peaceful farmers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 22:20:17
|
Not sure if it's been mentioned but the elves of old are the ones who fought the dragons, giants, and orcs so that the other races, such as humans, could come out of their caves in live in relative peace.
Sure the elves fecked up on several occasions but name me a civilization that hasn't at some point in time.
Anyway, not sure why race is being brought into this discussion. Faerun isn't a real place, for some of you who may not know yet, so you don't have to fight for racial equality.
I think the orcs should just go back to being savages and Many Arrows erased from everyone's memory. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
|
|
|
Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 23:41:20
|
Hey guys, long time Realms fan and lurker on these forums. Being reading Candlekeep for a while, but I've just decided to get involved!
Question regarding this thread...
Where does it state in canon that Many-Arrows was peaceful, or that the orcs of Many-Arrows were farmers? I can't find any evidence to suggest that either of these things were true.
Also, what role do you guys think that Alustriel played in the formation of Many-Arrows? I'm pretty sure she played a major role in its founding, but not too sure about canon examples of that... (besides hints from Ed).
Anyway, thanks! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 23:59:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
Hey guys, long time Realms fan and lurker on these forums. Being reading Candlekeep for a while, but I've just decided to get involved!
Question regarding this thread...
Where does it state in canon that Many-Arrows was peaceful, or that the orcs of Many-Arrows were farmers? I can't find any evidence to suggest that either of these things were true.
Also, what role do you guys think that Alustriel played in the formation of Many-Arrows? I'm pretty sure she played a major role in its founding, but not too sure about canon examples of that... (besides hints from Ed).
Anyway, thanks!
The fact that Many Arrows wasn't at war with its neighbors shows it was at least somewhat peaceful, and they had to have farmers to have some self-sufficiency. You can't have a nation that is all army and no civilians. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 00:13:26
|
quote:
The fact that Many Arrows wasn't at war with its neighbors shows it was at least somewhat peaceful, and they had to have farmers to have some self-sufficiency. You can't have a nation that is all army and no civilians.
But Many-Arrows was in a near-perpetual state of civil war for the first 90 years it existed. That's like, super unpeaceful.
Why can't a civilization exist without farmers? There are many examples of civilizations that have existed without farming. I could see these orcs having some animal husbandry, like keeping pens of rothe or something, but certainly there was extremely little, if any, cultivation of plants for food.
Unless there is a canon source somewhere that I've missed? |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 00:38:46
|
In one of the Drizzt novels (the one where they find {shudder} Baffenburg, IIRC), the 'heroes' come across a pair of 'Orc Farmers' on their way home. They were making small talk, very similar to humans (along the lines of "my wife is gonna kill me..."). I can't give you exact quotes or page #'s because all my books burned.
Anyhow, the gist of it was that Bruenor's group was sneaking into Orc territory, and murdering peaceful orcs enroute, like those farmers. If you have farmers, you have farms. I don't know about planting crops - I am assuming animal farms would be fairly normal (so technically, ranches, not farms). Except for the Ondonti, I know of no other orcs who actually plant crops. Many tribes do keep food animals, though. Some also keep Worgs for hunting. At least one tribe (in the Fallen Lands, IIRC) ride ostrich-like birds. Yup... thats canon... and awfully weird.
So we are probably using the term 'farmer' incorrectly. They are sheperds... don't know if that makes it any better. Orcs rarely get to occupy lands conducive to farming, so they would have no skills in that area. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2014 00:42:16 |
|
|
|
Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 01:19:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In one of the Drizzt novels (the one where they find {shudder} Baffenburg, IIRC), the 'heroes' come across a pair of 'Orc Farmers' on their way home. They were making small talk, very similar to humans (along the lines of "my wife is gonna kill me..."). I can't give you exact quotes or page #'s because all my books burned.
Anyhow, the gist of it was that Bruenor's group was sneaking into Orc territory, and murdering peaceful orcs enroute, like those farmers. If you have farmers, you have farms.
Oh, you must be referring to The Orc King. I reviewed the relevant sections, as well as doing a key-word search of the entire novel.
"Farmer" is never used to refer to the orcs of Baffenburg. In fact, the term is not used at all in book!
I know this is the general shelf, but it seems to me that there is no canon which indicates that the orcs of Many-Arrows were peaceful or farmers! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 01:23:59
|
It took me all of 10 seconds (once I knew the name of the source) to prove you wrong...
quote:
Obould demanded they sit and wait, that they till the ground like peasant human farmers. Grguch demanded of them that they sharpen their spears and swords to better cut the flesh of dwarves.
Apparently I was wrong as well, by assuming they were only engaged in animal husbandry. They did 'till the soil', because Obould demanded it of them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2014 01:24:41 |
|
|
|
Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 01:44:23
|
Interesting! In The Orc King? I guess my search-a-ma-jig didn't scan the epub properly. What page number is that on, so I can try to I fix my search tool? I ask because the kingdom as described in FRCS doesn't sound peaceful or agrarian at all!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It took me all of 10 seconds (once I knew the name of the source) to prove you wrong...
quote:
Obould demanded they sit and wait, that they till the ground like peasant human farmers. Grguch demanded of them that they sharpen their spears and swords to better cut the flesh of dwarves.
Apparently I was wrong as well, by assuming they were only engaged in animal husbandry. They did 'till the soil', because Obould demanded it of them.
|
Edited by - Thorn Illance on 09 Jan 2014 01:45:17 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 02:49:49
|
That passage from The Orc King isn't a declaration from the third-person narrator. It is part of a passage in which a warmongering shaman is attempting to put together his case against King Obould as he goes to rile up the warmongering Chieftain Grguch. Toogwik was thinking to himself that he would tell Grguch that Obould was ordering orcs to farm the ground. It's propaganda.
Did Obould ever actually tell his orcs to be farmers? I don't recall.
But that particular passage is hearsay, at best, and therefore inadmissable in a court of lore.
And MT, Bruenor's party didn't murder any orcs on that particular adventure. Much to Pwent's chagrin, who was hoping they would storm a newly built orc keep at least, Bruenor led his group past orc patrols and caravans all the way to the Fell Pass. Oddly, King Obould claimed that swath of land for his new kingdom, although Bruenor's party never encountered a single orc there. (It was the late winter of early 1372 DR, so the orcs were probably smart enough to avoid that snow-filled valley like the plague.) The dwarves didn't commit murder--but you could probably ding 'em for trespass! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 09 Jan 2014 02:57:36 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 02:55:22
|
The pdf I have says that on pg.170, but I have also found the pertinent section I was somewhat misremembering (but only somewhat), on pg. 243 (of the pdf):
quote:
The two orcs stood under a widespread maple, the sharp, stark lines of its branches not yet softened by the onset of buds. They talked and chuckled at their own stupidity, for they were completely lost, and far separated from their kin at the small village. A wrong turn on a trail in the dark of night had put them far afield, and they had long ago abandoned the firewood they had come out to collect.
One lamented that his wife would beat him red, to warm him up so he could replace the fire that wouldn't last half the night.
The other laughed and his smile lingered long after his mirth was stolen by an elven arrow, one that neatly sliced into his companion's temple. Standing in confusion, grinning simply because he hadn't the presence of mind to remove his own smile, the orc didn't even register the sudden thump of heavy boots closing in fast from behind him. He was caught completely unawares as the sharp tip of a helmet spike drove into his spine, tearing through muscle and bone, and blasted out the front of his chest, covered in blood and pieces of his torn heart.
They weren't farmers returning home (at least, thats not what it states, at any rate), but they were just gathering firewood to bring home to their village. A very human thing to do. Too bad the blood-thirsty, savage dwarves and elf murdered them. Think of the poor orc children that will never get beaten by their da-da's again.
As for farming, I would also have to check that short story featuring Drizzt returning the elf's body to her people - source please? In that, Drizzt had an aerial view of Obould's kingdom, and he was surprised by all they were building (and by how advanced it all was). I remember there was some very good descriptive text (it is RAS - he excels at painting a scene). I know those damn Orc farms are out there somewhere. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2014 03:03:36 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 03:04:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They weren't farmers returning home (at least, thats not what it states, at any rate), but they were just gathering firewood to bring home to their village. A very human thing to do. Too bad the blood-thirsty, savage dwarves and elf murdered them. Think of the poor orc children that will never get beaten by their da-da's again.
It's unfortunate, but those orcs were searching for firewood on the eves of Mithral Hall, which was land stolen by King Obould in a war of aggression. They were serving a warmongering king, who had approved of even more warmongering by one of his subordinate warlords. At that point, Bruenor was clear to open fire on any orc in his path, all the way to Obould's tent. Sucked to be them, though; they sounded like swell guys: regular orcan Fred and Barney!
EDIT: And I usually find it more useful to cite the chapter numbers of RAS's works, instead of page numbers, because there are so many different editions of them, and the pagination varies widely. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 09 Jan 2014 03:17:15 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 04:18:34
|
There's some relevant quotes in Dragon 429, in the article on Dark Arrow Keep, that RA Salvatore co-wrote.
Page 6:
quote:
King Obould XVII, the reigning king of Many-Arrows, rules from the Citadel at the heart of Dark Arrow Keep. Obould continues the policies set by his distant ancestor King Obould I, pursuing an agenda of continued peace and mutually profitable trade relationships with the surrounding towns.
So Many Arrows is actively pursuing peace with its neighbors. That's a good definition of peaceful, to me.
Page 7:
quote:
Hartusk is among the most powerful of the Many-Arrows war chiefs. The recognized head of the traditionalist faction in Dark Arrow Keep, he does his best to convince the other orcs that they should resume their ancient customs of raiding and warfare against the other races.
You can't resume something if you never stopped... So the orcs of Many Arrows are not raiding and making war upon their neighbors. This, again, sounds peaceful to me.
Page 7:
quote:
Gorruk Scarhide is an up-and-coming orc shaman of Gruumsh and a public supporter of King Obould, though he is more measured in his support for Obould’s policy of peace toward the other peoples of the Silver Marches.
Another reference to the national policy of getting along with their neighbors.
Page 7:
quote:
Turbulent as its internal politics have been, Many-Arrows has remained largely true to the terms of the Treaty of Garumn’s Gorge over the past century. Many-Arrows has not fought any large-scale war against any of its neighbors since the treaty was signed. It has even expanded upon this treaty in some cases, signing trade agreements with both Sundabar and Silverymoon over the past two decades.
So they've adhered to -- and expanded -- a peace treaty.
Pages 7-8:
quote:
The current ruler, King Obould XVII, is a direct descendant of Obould I, and he leads the most powerful faction in the kingdom, dedicated to continuing peace with other nations of the region.
Continuing peace. Not war.
Page 8:
quote:
Uniquely among orc nations, the Kingdom of Many-Arrows is a firmly established and formally recognized kingdom of the North. Relations with its neighbors are strained, but peaceful.
There it is, in canon, from the author that created Many Arrows: Peaceful relations.
Page 8:
quote:
Many-Arrows remains at peace with each of its neighbors, uneasy as relations may be. The orcs have not fought a major war in nearly a century, though periodic border skirmishes have been a nuisance. This era of peace shows all signs of continuing under the guidance of King Obould XVII and his heir, Lorgru.
An era of peace... I think this pretty much covers whether or not Many Arrows is a peaceful nation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 04:41:51
|
Wooly beat me to it, although I have a different source. I speed-read through the entire novel (I forgot how much I had liked that one... except for 'Baffenburg'), and came across pretty-much the same info in the epilogue:
quote:
He was right, Drizzt knew, to his ultimate frustration. He reminded himself of the roads he had walked over the last decades, of the ruins he had seen, of the devastation of the Spellplague. But in the North, instead of that, because of a brave dwarf named Bruenor Battlehammer, who threw off his baser instincts, his hatred and his hunger for revenge, in light of what he believed to be the greater good, the region had known a century and more of relative peace. More peace than ever it had known before. And that while the world around had fallen to shadow and despair
Which of course takes place at the very beginning of 4e, a hundred years after the events of the book. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 04:52:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It's unfortunate, but those orcs were searching for firewood on the eves of Mithral Hall, which was land stolen by King Obould in a war of aggression. They were serving a warmongering king, who had approved of even more warmongering by one of his subordinate warlords. At that point, Bruenor was clear to open fire on any orc in his path, all the way to Obould's tent. Sucked to be them, though; they sounded like swell guys: regular orcan Fred and Barney!
I hope you realize by now that I LIKE dwarves, and what I am doing there is my usual 'devil's advocate' role... which people who know me RW call "Mark arguing for arguments sake".
I just like to make people realize there is ALWAYS another perspective... usually at least several. Every race is guilty of atrocities... we just need to be a little more like Bruenor, and see the 'greater good'.
If anything, that just made me want to read stories set during The Wailing Years even more. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 05:08:14
|
they stole the firewood........ from them thar goblins......
think of the goblins they are people too |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
was many arrows a narrative mistake?
