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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 10:59:03
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The orcs were considered to have been relatively peaceful for most of the last century. But then repeated acts of violent border skirmishes and internal civil wars are mentioned. They were only "peaceful" if we make concessions and allowances for the fact that they are orcs.
That's precisely what King Obould VI lamented in the Prologue to The Orc King.
They may have been "peaceful" in that manner through the mid-1460s, but apparently that changed. The FRCG (4E) says that by 1479 DR, the orcs of Many-Arrows were enemies of Luruar, and calls Dark Arrow Keep one of many threats.
MT, I know you were just playing devil's advocate. But when you do it for orcs, I can't help but poke back!
sfdragon, Bah! But the dwarves paid the orcs for that wood . . . with steel and mithral, I tell ye! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 14:09:24
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@Wooly Rupert
That's certainly one way to look at it! I think you get the best view of lore when you look at all the sources in total, though.
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King Obould XVII, the reigning king of Many-Arrows, rules from the Citadel at the heart of Dark Arrow Keep. Obould continues the policies set by his distant ancestor King Obould I, pursuing an agenda of continued peace and mutually profitable trade relationships with the surrounding towns.
So Many Arrows is actively pursuing peace with its neighbors. That's a good definition of peaceful, to me.
The seventeenth king in less than ninety years, dang, orcs do have a short life! That quote says that Obould XVII pursues peace, which to me, when compared with additional lore, indicates that peace (or some variation of it) needed to be pursued, because it had not been achieved.
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Hartusk is among the most powerful of the Many-Arrows war chiefs. The recognized head of the traditionalist faction in Dark Arrow Keep, he does his best to convince the other orcs that they should resume their ancient customs of raiding and warfare against the other races.
You can't resume something if you never stopped... So the orcs of Many Arrows are not raiding and making war upon their neighbors. This, again, sounds peaceful to me.
A unit of social organization in Dark Arrows is the War Chief? Since the campaign guide says the orcs warred against themselves in the mountains, and this doesn't disagree, then I'm going to interpret the sum of lore to indicate that there was a lot of fighting, and succession, in Many-Arrows.
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Gorruk Scarhide is an up-and-coming orc shaman of Gruumsh and a public supporter of King Obould, though he is more measured in his support for Obould’s policy of peace toward the other peoples of the Silver Marches.
Another reference to the national policy of getting along with their neighbors.
Obould the Seventeenth is totally into profitable interactions the neighboring groups. It is clear that their are factions that are not.
quote:
Turbulent as its internal politics have been, Many-Arrows has remained largely true to the terms of the Treaty of Garumn’s Gorge over the past century. Many-Arrows has not fought any large-scale war against any of its neighbors since the treaty was signed. It has even expanded upon this treaty in some cases, signing trade agreements with both Sundabar and Silverymoon over the past two decades.
So they've adhered to -- and expanded -- a peace treaty.
How true to the terms of the treaty? Largely true, not true-true, but good enough true. And while being in a constant state of civil/ sectarian war for 90 years (20 generations?), Orcs of Many-Arrows fought in "little wars" with their neighbors?
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The current ruler, King Obould XVII, is a direct descendant of Obould I, and he leads the most powerful faction in the kingdom, dedicated to continuing peace with other nations of the region.
Continuing peace. Not war.
Sure, but other factions in Many-Arrows want to hoarde-up and crush some dudes.
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Uniquely among orc nations, the Kingdom of Many-Arrows is a firmly established and formally recognized kingdom of the North. Relations with its neighbors are strained, but peaceful.
There it is, in canon, from the author that created Many Arrows: Peaceful relations.
Oh yeah, it's well established that Many-Arrows and Luruar et al. are not at war. I wonder what keeps relationships strained?
quote:
Many-Arrows remains at peace with each of its neighbors, uneasy as relations may be. The orcs have not fought a major war in nearly a century, though periodic border skirmishes have been a nuisance. This era of peace shows all signs of continuing under the guidance of King Obould XVII and his heir, Lorgru.
An era of peace... I think this pretty much covers whether or not Many Arrows is a peaceful nation.
Peaceful, for an Orc hoard, lol!
The sum total of the lore on this region indicates to me that Many- Arrows is a brutal place, with no farmers or peaceniks. King Obould the 17th dispenses justice via combat in The Pit, using this and other methods as a political tool to weaken opposing factions. Trade with neighboring nations has brought unparalleled wealth to the Obould dynasty, and they are willing to maintain a staggering military force to keep it that way |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 14:16:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
Peaceful, for an Orc hoard, lol!
It is canon that the nation of Many Arrows is at peace with its neighbors, and that the leadership of the nation wants to continue that.
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
The sum total of the lore on this region indicates to me that Many- Arrows is a brutal place, with no farmers or peaceniks. King Obould the 17th dispenses justice via combat in The Pit, using this and other methods as a political tool to weaken opposing factions. Trade with neighboring nations has brought unparalleled wealth to the Obould dynasty, and they are willing to maintain a staggering military force to keep it that way
No farmers? How was this in any way indicated in what I posted?
No peaceniks? Gee, I wonder how it is that the nation hasn't gone to war, then, especially with a king that is telling everyone "hey, let's have peace!" Repeated quotes showing active pursuit of a policy of peace, and this somehow indicates to you that no one wants peace?  |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 14:51:00
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And the United States was at peace during the American Civil war because the Americans never attacked Canada.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 15:30:52
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I would think while the rulers are pushing hard for peace or to hold everything together, I would also assume there's lots of little war bands, groups, raiders etc causing trouble, for both sides that may come close to pushing everyone back into a war. There's no way to stamp out thousands of years of warfare and hatred and everyone just magically listens.
Being a ruler in the North having to deal with that would probably be one of the crappiest jobs in Faerun. It's a powder keg just waiting to go off. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 15:37:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
And the United States was at peace during the American Civil war because the Americans never attacked Canada.
It was at peace -- with other nations.
And that's been the point I've been trying to make: the orcs were not waging war upon non-orcs, which is, in the North, a very non-orcy thing to do. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 18:47:17
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| The United States was not at peace during the "Civil War" because the Confederate states considered themselves to have seceded from the United States. There are war agitators in Many Arrows but they do not consider themselves to have become a separate nation. Nothing quoted implies there has been much infighting in the nation you are just assuming. Thorn it seems like you are expecting the Orcs to remain hugely warlike and not paying attention to these sources. While Orcs have been violent throughout most of D&D I think the point of Many Arrows narration wise is to do something NEW and DIFFERENT. Wizards of the Coast can't just keep everything the same as it has always been repeating the same sort of events again and again. |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 19:48:08
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The Orcs of Many-Arrows did remain hugely warlike, this is obvious if you actually read the sources. Many-Arrows was in a near perpetual state of civil war, one such war lasting ten years! Before this, Obould the Second broke the treaty and entered into a War of aggression with the Silver Marches! Also, many "small wars" we're fought with neighboring countries.
Don't get me wrong, you can run your home game however you want. I'm just talking about canon.
See, I think sometimes a completely wrong idea, like; "the Orcs of Many-Arrows turned in their marauding sticks and picked up farming in one generation" gets repeated around when it's totally not true. Worse, people then say things like, "oh, it's so lame that this thing happened in the Realms", and that thing never happened!
Oh! And during that 10 year war, Many-Arrows was split into two nations!
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
The United States was not at peace during the "Civil War" because the Confederate states considered themselves to have seceded from the United States. There are war agitators in Many Arrows but they do not consider themselves to have become a separate nation. Nothing quoted implies there has been much infighting in the nation you are just assuming. Thorn it seems like you are expecting the Orcs to remain hugely warlike and not paying attention to these sources. While Orcs have been violent throughout most of D&D I think the point of Many Arrows narration wise is to do something NEW and DIFFERENT. Wizards of the Coast can't just keep everything the same as it has always been repeating the same sort of events again and again.
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Edited by - Thorn Illance on 09 Jan 2014 19:55:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 22:58:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
The Orcs of Many-Arrows did remain hugely warlike, this is obvious if you actually read the sources. Many-Arrows was in a near perpetual state of civil war, one such war lasting ten years! Before this, Obould the Second broke the treaty and entered into a War of aggression with the Silver Marches! Also, many "small wars" we're fought with neighboring countries.
Many Arrows may have been warlike, but it is canon that they remained at peace with their neighbors.
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
Don't get me wrong, you can run your home game however you want. I'm just talking about canon.
You mean like all the canon statements, from an article by Salvatore himself, calling it a peaceful nation?
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
See, I think sometimes a completely wrong idea, like; "the Orcs of Many-Arrows turned in their marauding sticks and picked up farming in one generation" gets repeated around when it's totally not true. Worse, people then say things like, "oh, it's so lame that this thing happened in the Realms", and that thing never happened!
Totally not true? Then how did an army turn into a nation?
Canon states, quite clearly, that Many Arrows is at peace with its neighbors. Argue that all you want to -- I've provided quotes that back me up. |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 23:42:12
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| There's no argument forthcoming from me... Many-Arrows, as an Orc nation in the North, is not represented in canon as a bunch of Orc farmers who threw down their spears in one generation. That's canon. But everyone is free to play it as they wish. It is a bit of a drag when people misrepresent canon, or disparage setting narrative based on nothing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 01:11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
There's no argument forthcoming from me... Many-Arrows, as an Orc nation in the North, is not represented in canon as a bunch of Orc farmers who threw down their spears in one generation. That's canon. But everyone is free to play it as they wish. It is a bit of a drag when people misrepresent canon, or disparage setting narrative based on nothing.
If they didn't throw down their spears, how did they form a peaceful nation? Where did orc merchants and crafters come from? And if they weren't farming, how did they feed their new nation while trade was being established? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 18:58:26
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Thorn you are ignoring the six pages of canon being thrown around to be stubbornly sticking to what you FEEL to be true. What you FEEL to be true is not equally valid to what can be proven ot be true. In so far as you can prove something about an imaginary place to be true. The facts of the matter of this matter are explicitly stated.
We are looking for a level of history, geography, sociology, etc. that it would take a book just about the kingdom to explain that will likely never exist. We have to extrapolate from the few details we do have if we want to come to some sort of "truth". |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 22:49:07
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| Deleted. For a few weeks at least. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 21 Jan 2014 22:53:08 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1303 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 14:14:40
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| Everyone who weighed in on this thread should go read Catti-Brie, Bruenor, Regis and Drizzt discussing about orcs and Many-Arrows Kingdom in Night of the Hunter. I feel validated in my opinion that the kingdom was a mistake! Hehe. Awesome character reflections on the Dark Mirror short story and the nature of goblinoids such as orcs. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 19:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I think it's a great idea and I'd like to see more 'monster kingdoms' spring up in the (5E) Realms.
Hobgoblins are way overdue for their own lands. Goblins too.
Don't forget Murann near Amn. I set one of my campaigns in Amn duringthe time of Sythillis.
Good stuff.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 21:00:56
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I like the idea of monster nations. It is kind of boring when each monster always has one personality-type, even if it's supposed to be a full-fledged species. Realmsian orcs are not like Tolkien's orcs who were unambiguously stated to be created through the corruption of elves by the forces of darkness (a D&D equivalent would be fiends, or creatures made by fiends in their image). I don't know enough about Many-Arrows to give an informed opinion about that one, though. But keep reading!
I think the Sythillisian Empire/Sothillisian Empire/Murannheim was a great idea, particularly at the point of 2e Lands of Intrigue. After that it failed a bit to expain how the nation was sustaining itself, but it's fairly easy to come up with it. I can see Murannheim surviving if the ogre-magi established a ruling caste but kept humans as full citizens, and then signed treaties with Amn and Tethyr. So that's what I assume they did, though it's not said so explicitly (I think). If they went "humans are slaves and meat!" they'd have been destroyed within a few years. Their total numbers are given in Lands of Intrigue, and it's not nearly enough to continually occupy either Amn or Tethyr for a sustained period against the will of every human there, much less both of them with likely foreign support. It's definitely enough to smash Amn's military in a short campaign, topple the local government in Murann and seize power, though.
Oh, but tacking -heim to Murann was a silly idea for a name. Even if you do decide do go for Earth-analogues, why the hell would Oni leading goblinoids use a Norse suffix? Yes, I know about the Armoury of Nedeheim, but I haven't been given any good reason why Sythillis would want to emulate other giant races. |
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Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 04:43:00
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| Personally, I like the idea of there being an orc nation on Faerun. I think the idea is a bit overdue as eventually the tribes could become organized and become a real threat. However, I really don't like the idea of making evil creatures misunderstood monsters or the subject of some form of 'racism'. Sure, there could be a small tribe that would break the norm and try to have peaceful relations with the rest of the world but, as a whole, I feel there is a need for strictly evil creature such as orcs in a gaming world. |
Canon stops where the table begins. |
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was many arrows a narrative mistake?
