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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 10:59:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I think it's a great idea and I'd like to see more 'monster kingdoms' spring up in the (5E) Realms.
Given that copycats reproduced faster than regular catsplosion back in 2e days, and what goes on now, it's almost guaranteed.
Wait for the land of fluo-tattoed ropers. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 12:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas(snip) I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of your arguments.
Clearly you do not know the meaning of the word "hypocrisy".
Anyway, it's also clear you're not interested in a genuine discussion and I cannot abide people who invent the comments of the other party - you know, that expression "you're putting words in my mouth". That's a conversation you are better off having with a mirror. It certainly doesn't interest me.
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Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 12:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus(snip) I think it's a real interesting question of seeing what they do with their kingdom. They haven't had one since what? Uruth Ukrypt in Kryptgarden Forest? I imagine in time it will simply implode or go up in flames.
I wonder what role the Bloodbone Throne of Uruth Ukrupt played in keeping that kingdom together? Further, I wonder why Yurtrus had one of his shamans play such a key role. At least Uruth Ukrypt was more orc-like: it was trying to live in peace with its neighbours. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 15:56:01
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/dons +5 Adamantine Full Plate of Greater Fire Resistance and jumps into the moshpit
Alright, first off, people need to stop talking about the "Orcish problem of FR" or similar exaggerations, the problem is all in the North, a lot of places of Faerun don't mind orcs and half-orcs living with or near them. Everyone here (including good Markustay with his always insightful posts) is falling in the fallacy of believing the North represents all of Faerun, news flash, it doesn't.
Now onward to the second big problem, the mumakil (take that you Tolkien-haters!!! [... okay c'mon i'm kidding]) in the room, the elves and their tradition of mass destruction/slaughter. The flaw here is thinking everyone in Faerun knows the elves have done such thing, the biggest difference between elves and orcs is that elves are successful: probably just a handful of non-elves around Faerun knows about the Fall of Jhaamdath or about the Crown Wars and the Great Disaster, probably there aren't non-elves that know about the Sundering (the First ... or Second or ... damn i lost the count) either. That's why you don't see Cormyr leading a crusade against Myth Drannor or Waterdeep uniting the cities of the western heartlands against Evereska or Amn, Murannheim and Tethyr teaming up to raze the Waeldath. Because very few know and of those that do a lot are very partial to elves (the Chosens of Mystra).
So yes, historically the elves have brought a lot of damage to Faerun, probably more than all the orc hordes together, problem is no one knows about it, so the pointed ears still run around free while the green tusks are "monsters".
Someone above was asking why aren't the orcs depicted as more dangerous and bringing in ridiculous comparisons to dragons and beholders ... have you ever read a monster manual? Orcs, humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, goblins are just standard races, nothing supremely powerful or menacing about them, there is no damned reason why a group of orcs should be depicted like a beholder or a dragon or any other creature with extraordinary powerful mystical abilities. A band of orcs with weapons is slightly more dangerous than a band of humans with weapons and a band of dwarves with weapons is a little bit tougher to kill and a band of halflings with weapons is ... too late they attacked you while hidden, surprise round, you're dead.
Now the topic that brought me here, the CE alignment debacle: talking about alignments in a vacuum is idiotic, more so in an RPG setting with plenty of options and lore attached to any single choice of alignment and faith. A lot of deities are CE, yes, so? Can you name 5 temples of Talos in Waterdeep? Silverymoon? Cormyr? Tethyr? The Dales? No? You know why? Because most of the people of those lands don't want to live next door to a dumbass that points and laughs at them everytime there is a flood, famine or war.
What about Bane, he is LE, so he has temples everywhere, right? Nope. And the reason is because a lot of people doesn't want a menacing "imma da boss, bow to me vermin!" thug in the neighbourhood.
You need to go into "evil" lands to find open temples of LE, CE and NE deities, exactly because they attract the kind of individuals that don't make good neighbours or citizens.
At most you need to be into a place like Calimport, infinitely tolerant on the religious side, to have temples of Cyric, Talos and the others in the open. And Calimport is a lonely exception.
Even in disinterested, decadent and "ebil capitalistic" Amn and Sembia the temples of evil deities are hidden or out of the way and aren't tolerated openly inside the cities.
And i know everyone is thinking about Umberlee now, problem is that without some prayers to the Bitch Queen sailors all around Faerun wouldn't dare take the sea, that's tolerance inspired by fear, not because Umberlants are shining examples of civic virtues.
So yes, CE individuals are disfunctional members of society and most societies of Faerun tend to avoid putting too many of them in the same place because that brews disorders and chaos. The Zhentarim and Thay train and discipline their orcs with an iron fist, that's why they can have a lot of them (and really, look at 3e Thay, in the FRCS page 129, 4924800 total population, 10% orcs makes that 492480 orcs, almost 500K green tusks and they don't have recurring "orc revolts" problems, they feed them, give them shelter and occasionally throw them against neighbouring nations, same with gnolls that are another close-to 500k and with goblins that are a little less).
The problem with the North is that both sides (whether by being the aggressor or in self defense) have thousands of years of blood on their hands and getting past all that needs a lot of time and/or several "leaps of faith" on one or both sides. C'mon think about Europe: we warred for several centuries and it took us 2 World Wars, the failed Society of Nations and dozens of other failed alliances/pacts, heavy US meddling and the whole "oh no communists want to eat your childrens, quick, team up" propaganda to form the still imperfect and flawed EU and we still quarrel heavily on sporting events and there is still a lot of bad blood and distrust and name calling on all sides. And we are all humans.
Now factor in not hundreds but thousands of years of war, not the same race but four distinct races (with all the religious and cultural baggage that implies) and you see that Luruar and the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge and the founding of Many Arrows were just stepping stones in a process that will need a lot of time to reach some stability and probably won't be completed in dozens of human lifetimes. |
Edited by - Demzer on 06 Jan 2014 16:00:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 16:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Someone above was asking why aren't the orcs depicted as more dangerous and bringing in ridiculous comparisons to dragons and beholders ... have you ever read a monster manual? Orcs, humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, goblins are just standard races, nothing supremely powerful or menacing about them, there is no damned reason why a group of orcs should be depicted like a beholder or a dragon or any other creature with extraordinary powerful mystical abilities. A band of orcs with weapons is slightly more dangerous than a band of humans with weapons and a band of dwarves with weapons is a little bit tougher to kill and a band of halflings with weapons is ... too late they attacked you while hidden, surprise round, you're dead.
That was not the argument. The argument was that if one or two individuals prove that common conceptions about a race are incorrect, then this should be applied to all races that have one or two exceptions to the norm -- and that since this was not the case, then selective standards were being applied. What was good for the goose was not good for the gander, as it were. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 17:56:39
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So when we stop Alaskan Natives from 'clubbing baby seals' - something they have been doing for hundreds of years - because we have our cultural 'righteous indignation', and most of them turn into gov't-supported alcoholics because their traditions have been stripped from them, we did the right thing, eh?
We do not stop elves from living in trees. We do not stop dwarves from living underground. we don't even stop halflings from stealing everything is sight. But if a culture based on raiding - like the Vikings - comes into conflict with human norms, we should just kill them outright, eh? Because, in your opinion, its the 'right' thing to do.
Some people eat dogs. Some eat primates. Some even eat other people. Maybe we should just round them all up and slaughter them all, because their cultures offend us? Is that the 'human' thing to do? Or the 'American thing'? Why are we holding orcs up to our modern standards? Mongolia is a country today, even though they formed hordes and committed atrocities for thousands of years. But they are human, so its okay, right? No-ones holding a grudge against them.
Orcs raid - that means they show up at other people's houses and take stuff. Isn't that the very definition of 'adventuring'? Aren't all PCs orcs, in a manner of speaking? We are okay with Thayan slavers all over the place, Undermounatin, and god-knows-what-else, simply because these are 'human evils'? The Zhents aren't more effective killers, and a bigger threat, in general? I don't see anyone sending a crusade against them.
I am not saying not to kill them when they get in your face, but if they aren't looking for trouble, why just assume they are? Racial profiling? And I agree that many... perhaps 'most'... orcs are bad, but if we are no longer killing drow on site, and allowing them to get by on their own merit, why not orcs? In fact, outside of 'The North', orcs are not 'kill on site', and your party went into these other regions, they would probably get into trouble for killing orcs while heading into town (because the orcs were probably headed there just to trade).
The only problem with Obould's kingdom is that its smack-dab in the middle of the one region that is bigoted against them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2014 19:02:07 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 18:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas(snip) I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of your arguments.
Clearly you do not know the meaning of the word "hypocrisy".
Anyway, it's also clear you're not interested in a genuine discussion and I cannot abide people who invent the comments of the other party - you know, that expression "you're putting words in my mouth". That's a conversation you are better off having with a mirror. It certainly doesn't interest me.
I'm sorry, but apparently your definition of a "genuine discussion" is me having to agree with you while you completely ignore all the examples that prove why your arguments are faulty. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 18:11:21
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Drow should all be kill on sight. Bunch of murdering goblin lovers. True story. Ask Beltram Hardanvil, he'll tell you all about drow! Rumors of a "good" ranger by the name of Drizzt Do'Urden should be viewed as a laughable, obviously, "tall tale" outside The North. Just my two copper there. ;)
Orcs showing up to trade is interesting. I'd be curious to know if Ed has spun up some monster-type merchants or traders. I'd like to know where we'd see this type of trade go on? The Moonsea, Dales, Cormyr/Stonelands borders etc? |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 18:14:53
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| I'm pretty sure he has. Somewhere in the southern Realms, I think. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 19:07:30
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Yeah, its kinda weird. The south and east are far more 'accepting' then other regions, when it comes to races beyond the standard demi-humans.
I remember somewhere (perhaps in the old 2e Chult supplement) an example of goblins trading with dwarves. There is also an example of goblins living with human monks in the Hordelands, and losing their 'evil tendencies'.
You reap what you sow, is all I am saying. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 19:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That was not the argument. The argument was that if one or two individuals prove that common conceptions about a race are incorrect, then this should be applied to all races that have one or two exceptions to the norm -- and that since this was not the case, then selective standards were being applied. What was good for the goose was not good for the gander, as it were.
I was talking about this:
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Even "monster" races like dragons, beholders, illithids, and devils are shown to be clever, intimidating, and fearsome. Orcs are treated like chumps. Anytime orcs show up, they are toothless villains who we know will be easily defeated. Until RAS created Obould, no orc NPC was ever an impressive figure in FR.
Also, Markustay, regarding this:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, its kinda weird. The south and east are far more 'accepting' then other regions, when it comes to races beyond the standard demi-humans.
I think in 1e -> 3e Mulhorandi and Untheri would be very keen on butchering anything vaguely resembling an orc on sight, but beyond that, once you leave the North and the Western Heartlands, races start to mix.
Also, just to throw it out here, the city of Lastarr is an independent human city between Estagund and Veldorn the "Beast Lands" where the monsters (anything from goblinoids to beholders) go to trade their loot. There, now you have it, the other side of the FR racist coin. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 20:26:33
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And yet Airspur was ruled by a half-orc (Khrulis), right up until 4e ruined that lore. I don't think the 'Old Empires' was entirely negative toward Orcs. Someone had to be that guy's momma.
From pg.50 of Old Empires:quote:
there are also more than a few elves, half-elves, half-orcs, orcs, dwarves, and halflings mixed in the cities. Airspur and Mordulkin are particularly well-known for their cosmopolitan mix of races.
And from pg.51:quote:
These orcs often raid the cattle and sheep herds on the north shores of the Akanamere, but they rarely attack humans. (and again just after that...) A number of orcs have left the tribe to become traders in Airspur, where half-orcs are fast becoming the dominant members of its society. Because of this, a large dwarven mercenary company has offered its services to Cimbar, which is currently at war with Airspur. For the most part, however, the orcs of Airspur have adopted human values and compete with human traders for business, not racial reasons.
Thats just from that region. The books focusing on the Empires of the Sands is also full of that sort of thing. You treat Orcs like people, they behave like (very rude) people. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2014 20:35:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 20:30:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So when we stop Alaskan Natives from 'clubbing baby seals' - something they have been doing for hundreds of years - because we have our cultural 'righteous indignation', and most of them turn into gov't-supported alcoholics because their traditions have been stripped from them, we did the right thing, eh?
We do not stop elves from living in trees. We do not stop dwarves from living underground. we don't even stop halflings from stealing everything is sight. But if a culture based on raiding - like the Vikings - comes into conflict with human norms, we should just kill them outright, eh? Because, in your opinion, its the 'right' thing to do.
Some people eat dogs. Some eat primates. Some even eat other people. Maybe we should just round them all up and slaughter them all, because their cultures offend us? Is that the 'human' thing to do? Or the 'American thing'? Why are we holding orcs up to our modern standards? Mongolia is a country today, even though they formed hordes and committed atrocities for thousands of years. But they are human, so its okay, right? No-ones holding a grudge against them.
Orcs raid - that means they show up at other people's houses and take stuff. Isn't that the very definition of 'adventuring'? Aren't all PCs orcs, in a manner of speaking? We are okay with Thayan slavers all over the place, Undermounatin, and god-knows-what-else, simply because these are 'human evils'? The Zhents aren't more effective killers, and a bigger threat, in general? I don't see anyone sending a crusade against them.
I am not saying not to kill them when they get in your face, but if they aren't looking for trouble, why just assume they are? Racial profiling? And I agree that many... perhaps 'most'... orcs are bad, but if we are no longer killing drow on site, and allowing them to get by on their own merit, why not orcs? In fact, outside of 'The North', orcs are not 'kill on site', and your party went into these other regions, they would probably get into trouble for killing orcs while heading into town (because the orcs were probably headed there just to trade).
The only problem with Obould's kingdom is that its smack-dab in the middle of the one region that is bigoted against them.
Thayan slavers don't pose a threat to every single individual in a geographical location. Ditto for Zhents. In the North, though, orcs have a habit of imitating a plague of locusts: swarming down without warning, killing and destroying everything in sight. They have done this many, many times in recorded history, without warning or provocation. Even when they are not forming a horde, they still have a history of attacking and killing folks without warning.
For thousands of years, people of the North have only known orcs as a threat. Given that history has proven the threat of orcs time and time again, a better question is why wouldn't people assume a kill on sight stance? Why would people assume any better of orcs when for time out of memory orcs have given no reason for assuming better? It's only recently that orcs in the North have tried anything other than killing everyone in sight -- why do you expect thousands of years of history to simply be ignored?
When history tells you that someone's going to kill you if they even get close, you're not going to be inclined to give them that chance -- especially if you've got family to defend. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 20:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats just from that region. The books focusing on the Empires of the Sands is also full of that sort of thing. You treat Orcs like people, they behave like (very rude) people.
That all may be true, but until Many Arrows, the orcs of the North went out of their way to kill anyone that may have treated them like people. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 21:16:20
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| ouch what an eyesore..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 21:34:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
snip
Eh, that's why i specified Untheri and Mulhorandi and didn't talk about the whole Old Empires.
Markustay i think you and me are on the same page on this: orcs aren't always savage that kill everything and can "learn" to work in various ways inside (mostly) human societies, in the North history hasn't let them have this chance yet and the whole Many Arrows affair is (was?) a big sociological experiment from Alustriel and Co to speed the process toward integration. Thus Many Arrows was "forced" on the orcs and is an almost unexplained happening in the North and its existence is threatened every day. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 22:50:42
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| How did humans in the North stop orcs from trying to be peaceful before Many Arrows? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2014 : 22:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
A lot of deities are CE, yes, so? Can you name 5 temples of Talos in Waterdeep? Silverymoon? Cormyr? Tethyr? The Dales? No? You know why? Because most of the people of those lands don't want to live next door to a dumbass that points and laughs at them everytime there is a flood, famine or war.
What about Bane, he is LE, so he has temples everywhere, right? Nope. And the reason is because a lot of people doesn't want a menacing "imma da boss, bow to me vermin!" thug in the neighbourhood. [...] And i know everyone is thinking about Umberlee now, problem is that without some prayers to the Bitch Queen sailors all around Faerun wouldn't dare take the sea, that's tolerance inspired by fear, not because Umberlants are shining examples of civic virtues.
I realize that fans of TV-wars look scary, but "Oh my gosh, it offends my gentle nature!" is not a good reason to actually risk one's own neck. For most non-elves, anyway. 
A typical follower of Talos tend to act like a monkey with a habit of juggling torches and hurling them aroundif bored - and is seen as a constant threat accordingly.
Bane? Zhentish and Thayan folk lived with this sort. Banites can fit in: if you got a tyrant and a bunch of petty tyrants serving him, at this point you may as well have a church of a God Of Tyrants too. This could even somewhat curb the excesses.
Umberlee is compatible with more societies, because she's quite unobtrusive outside of her domain: her servants rarely get interested at all in anything not in direct sight of a shore, and usually don't seem to go beyond petty vendettas (which happen all the time anyway) or "Oh, but we both know everyone will leave the offerings, yes? Hehehehehe" evil cackling. For most people there's simply no big problem, just one more annoyance. And it's not like sea travel would become completely safe and pirates would vanish in thin air if she was somehow locked out.
quote:
So yes, CE individuals are disfunctional members of society and most societies of Faerun tend to avoid putting too many of them in the same place because that brews disorders and chaos. The Zhentarim and Thay train and discipline their orcs with an iron fist, that's why they can have a lot of them (and really, look at 3e Thay, in the FRCS page 129, 4924800 total population, 10% orcs makes that 492480 orcs, almost 500K green tusks and they don't have recurring "orc revolts" problems
How the first half is compatible with the second?
quote:
Now factor in not hundreds but thousands of years of war, not the same race but four distinct races (with all the religious and cultural baggage that implies)
How it "implies"?
Speaking of orcs, in Zakhara they got completely assimilated (as were elves, etc). Some "more classical" types ended up in a few places like Thesk on "I'm buying if you're selling" principle - they quickly became just one more part of workforce, with some advantages and disadvantages. In this context pre-profiling of abilities only makes them less threatening, in that you know what to expect: an orc is likely to be a dockside worker, butcher or soldier, but not a weaver, chef or locksmith.
Of course, this also means that on their own (without either assimilation or symbiosis) orcs would be less inclined to get more civilized than e.g. rustic Grey Orcs.
So it's more the "baggage" implies itself.
But while the whole thing is indeed self-perpetuating, once the circle is broken, all parts are up for grabs. Not only orcs. For example, if a part of status quo was "Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green." - without orcs as an external threat (and perhaps without wasting resources on it) there are more conflicts of interest and less good reasons to form stable alliances. Things aren't going to be boring for too long. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 07 Jan 2014 02:23:14 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 00:52:13
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I think it's a great idea and I'd like to see more 'monster kingdoms' spring up in the (5E) Realms.
Given that copycats reproduced faster than regular catsplosion back in 2e days, and what goes on now, it's almost guaranteed.
Wait for the land of fluo-tattoed ropers.
LOL, I swear TBeholder.... some of your posts, I just read them and go "What????" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 01:01:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
/dons +5 Adamantine Full Plate of Greater Fire Resistance and jumps into the moshpit
Now the topic that brought me here, the CE alignment debacle: talking about alignments in a vacuum is idiotic, more so in an RPG setting with plenty of options and lore attached to any single choice of alignment and faith. A lot of deities are CE, yes, so? Can you name 5 temples of Talos in Waterdeep? Silverymoon? Cormyr? Tethyr? The Dales? No? You know why? Because most of the people of those lands don't want to live next door to a dumbass that points and laughs at them everytime there is a flood, famine or war.
Just responding to this one piece. The gods of fury may not have temples all over, but they likely have small shrines all over. The reason for this is that at times, like say a drought, they may WANT Talos to deluge them. He is after all a god of storms. Yes, he's a god of great destruction too, and people would probably pray to Silvanus first... but if the rains don't come. Same with Umberlee and Auril (though in their instances, it is even more of a propritiation to not incur their wrath). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 01:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, its kinda weird. The south and east are far more 'accepting' then other regions, when it comes to races beyond the standard demi-humans.
I remember somewhere (perhaps in the old 2e Chult supplement) an example of goblins trading with dwarves. There is also an example of goblins living with human monks in the Hordelands, and losing their 'evil tendencies'.
You reap what you sow, is all I am saying.
They're more accepting of orcs, gnolls, bugbears, centaurs, ogres, hobgoblins, giants, etc... in Thay. Even tiny kobolds were treated with something like respect for their wily nature and natural magical talents. However, I've always had the view that goblins were treated literally as slavish fodder (to the point that if they needed meat to feed those orcs, gnolls, centaurs, etc....). At least the orcs, gnolls, and hobgoblins etc... represented some organizational ability, whereas the goblins tended to act little better than gremlins (from the movie). They breed fast, act savage... and generally I'd say the view shown of them in Golarion works well in the realms. In fact, its my firm belief that the most commonly imported Thayan slave is not human.... its goblins, captured by other societies and sold for cheap to the Thayans who will make use of them.... and the Thayans simply work them to death, and then feed the remains to their soldiery. Only the goblins that show actual martial competence get to be a soldier.
Of course, this is my own view on the creatures. Others views may differ. All this being said, my view is that in Thay, there are probably restaurants that cater to humanoids... and they probably have a lot of recipes for how to cook goblin. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 01:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And yet Airspur was ruled by a half-orc (Khrulis), right up until 4e ruined that lore. I don't think the 'Old Empires' was entirely negative toward Orcs. Someone had to be that guy's momma.
From pg.50 of Old Empires:
quote:
there are also more than a few elves, half-elves, half-orcs, orcs, dwarves, and halflings mixed in the cities. Airspur and Mordulkin are particularly well-known for their cosmopolitan mix of races.
And from pg.51:
quote:
These orcs often raid the cattle and sheep herds on the north shores of the Akanamere, but they rarely attack humans. (and again just after that...) A number of orcs have left the tribe to become traders in Airspur, where half-orcs are fast becoming the dominant members of its society. Because of this, a large dwarven mercenary company has offered its services to Cimbar, which is currently at war with Airspur. For the most part, however, the orcs of Airspur have adopted human values and compete with human traders for business, not racial reasons.
Thats just from that region. The books focusing on the Empires of the Sands is also full of that sort of thing. You treat Orcs like people, they behave like (very rude) people.
No, I feel the original poster is right when he notes Mulhorand and Unther as prejudiced areas in the Old Empires. Those quotes are all for Chessenta. The people of Unther and Chessenta (the Mulan people) are very humancentric. That being said, it is kind of odd that their "evil" offshoot (Thay) is much more open minded and accepting of these other races... however that race still puts itself as superior... its just willing to sully itself and work with such underlings to get things done.
To give an example, I don't see Mulhorandi temples taking in humanoid slaves. They may accept demi-human slaves, but probably only if they were skilled craftsmen already. They would be more concerned with "helping" other humans by making them their slaves. I also don't see Mulhorand allowing any non-human tribe take up residence within their country if they can help it, and they probably train their soldiery by rooting out such contaminants.
Unther is probably a little more forgiving, as its going through a bit of a change in its views. Its people hate their god. They're willing to take in Tiamat followers. They'd probably be willing to work with anyone who will help them ease their repression, to the point that they'd probably not show their smug racial superiority too much. However, this is a change that's probably come about only in the last few centuries.
Oh, and orcs in particular wouldn't be tolerated in Mulhorand and Unther. The Orcgate wars may have been 2400+ years ago, but their gods and their followers have long memories. Ain't no damn way they'd be walking in public cities without being strung up and hung, possibly even sacrificed. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 02:31:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Given that copycats reproduced faster than regular catsplosion back in 2e days, and what goes on now, it's almost guaranteed.
Wait for the land of fluo-tattoed ropers.
LOL, I swear TBeholder.... some of your posts, I just read them and go "What????"
What do you expect? Fluo-tattoo and other sparklies were already brought in long ago. So all that's left is to wait until a few existing hentacle fans get thrown at FR (which is more likely after several designers left the company), and here you go: Far Realm will be merged into Forgoten Realms "so that our target audience didn't confuse them".  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 07:34:18
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
So all that's left is to wait until a few existing hentacle fans get thrown at FR...
Tentacles that engage in sexual acts are, well, what they are, but I doubt we'll see that as part of the Far Realm, much less in the Forgotten Realms.
What I do hope we see are more examples of nations, city states or loosely defined regions where humanoid races like orcs, goblins and hobgoblins rule.
Despite some of the hardline commentary in this scroll, I don't see it as unlikely or out of character for either race to form organized systems of rule.
On the contrary, the humanocentric emphasis imposed on the Realms by TSR (and thus WotC) delivered up a Realms that was very likely shorn of a monstrous presence.
It's my hope that WotC allows Ed Greenwood the opportunity to take a hard look at the Realms and identify places where monstrous kingdoms can rise up (or threaten to rise up).
The Realms will be better for it.
EDIT: WotC, please give us back the Goblin Marches. With goblins in charge. Thankee in advance.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 07 Jan 2014 07:35:21 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 09:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Bane? Zhentish and Thayan folk lived with this sort. Banites can fit in: if you got a tyrant and a bunch of petty tyrants serving him, at this point you may as well have a church of a God Of Tyrants too. This could even somewhat curb the excesses.
Thanks for proving my point: Banites fit well in a society ruled by the closest FR equivalent to mafia and a society of megalomaniac snob racist slavers.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
So yes, CE individuals are disfunctional members of society and most societies of Faerun tend to avoid putting too many of them in the same place because that brews disorders and chaos. The Zhentarim and Thay train and discipline their orcs with an iron fist, that's why they can have a lot of them (and really, look at 3e Thay, in the FRCS page 129, 4924800 total population, 10% orcs makes that 492480 orcs, almost 500K green tusks and they don't have recurring "orc revolts" problems
How the first half is compatible with the second?
Iron fist + discipline + 500k tuskers = no restless tuskers, take out the Red Wizards control of Thay (iron fist + discipline) and you have an orc horde like those in the North. But that doesn't happen in Thay, because the Red Wizards threat them as slaves and soldiery and control them BUT they feed and house them, and that's enough, coupled with bouts of violence against neighbouring nations, to keep the orcs in check. Many Arrows has nothing of the kind, it's Luruar telling the orcs "Alright now you stay here and do what you want and let's try not to fight too much, cya" and everyone hopes the orcs will behave like humans.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
How it "implies"?
Uh? Orcs have the same religion as humans? Speak the same language? Have the same lifestyle? Practice the same everyday doings? No? Then here's your cultural differences. Now multiply that by four and you have something closely resembling the North: four different cultures struggling to get along, with three almost integrated between them and the fourth left outside. That's the problem, you can't turn the orcs into humans by giving them a "kingdom". |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 09:22:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Tentacles that engage in sexual acts ...
During a play session in which i introduced my players to a pair of Deepspawns the first question that arose was "How do THOSE things reproduce?!?!?" |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 13:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Given that copycats reproduced faster than regular catsplosion back in 2e days, and what goes on now, it's almost guaranteed.
Wait for the land of fluo-tattoed ropers.
LOL, I swear TBeholder.... some of your posts, I just read them and go "What????"
What do you expect? Fluo-tattoo and other sparklies were already brought in long ago. So all that's left is to wait until a few existing hentacle fans get thrown at FR (which is more likely after several designers left the company), and here you go: Far Realm will be merged into Forgoten Realms "so that our target audience didn't confuse them".
Lol, I guess I'm showing my age, but I had to go look up catsplosion (apparently some game with dwarves slowed down by having cats appear??)... then fluo-tattoo (hmmm, never seen a fluorescent tattoo... if it only shows up under certain light, could be interesting)... then hentacle (ok, at least I've seen at least one of these anime' movies.. didn't know the term).... now I'm on Paizo's web site looking up some card game apparently named Hentacle that desperately is telling me I shouldn't buy it because its so adult (which is a great way to get me to buy it just to see what the hell is in it since its so cheap). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 14:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How did humans in the North stop orcs from trying to be peaceful before Many Arrows?
They used to laugh and call them names?
But seriously, some 10,000 years of fighting with the elves, then 10,000 years of fighting with the dwarves, and then 10,000 years fighting with humans (Netherese) would make anyone grumpy. And in every case, they were being pushed out of lands they already occupied.
As for my first comment - although meant to be 'in jest', I distinctly recall Vangerdehast calling Orcs 'pigfaces' right in front of a bunch of them in the novel Crusade. I have to wonder if that's a mage prejudice (hold-over from Netehril?), a Cormyrian prejudice (most likely), or his own, personal prejudice (unlikely). Regardless, the orcs in that novel were 'better behaved' (in control of their emotions) then the dwarves were, and even some humans. James Lowder wrote that... I think he knows the setting fairly well.
Orcs are chaotic, but they aren't stupid. If faced with a choice of 'getting along' or extinction, they would choose peace. This has been demonstrated in canon sources time and again. Only the religious zealots would attack in a situation they knew they couldn't win, and those are far and few between (most orcs just aren't all that religious, and pay lip-service whomever their shaman says to). I am not saying they are nice people - they are jerks (and WOULD attack in a situation where they knew they could win), but they aren't stupid, and too many people seem to think they are.
Like any other race, if put into a situation where they could live comfortably alongside others, they will (unless some shaman decides they are making Gruumsh angry, and then their fear of the shaman may lead them to doing something stupid). So long as their is enough food and other resources (even if they are stealing it), they do not kill indiscriminately - the quote from Old Empires says as much. Sure, there are some psychos that kill just for pleasure, but then, there are some humans, elves, dwarves, etc, who do much the same thing. There are higher percentages of them amongst orcs just because orcs are never 'taught better', because their level of civilization is rarely allowed to progress that far. When our intelligence is incapable of overriding our instincts, we all become animals - we attack when we feel threatened. They can't help it if their atrophied reasoning skills cause them to fall back on that primal instinct, any more then a bear or tiger could.
I think in the case of orcs, 'mob mentality' tends to override their limited logic. If the scariest orc in the bunch (which could be the Shaman - they fear magic) is a psycho, he CAN whip the others into a bloodlust. Humans and others are less prone to that... but it still happens. If the toughest orc leans toward peace - as Obould did - they will at least try to be peaceful. Orcs are lazy - they simply 'go with the flow'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2014 15:04:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 15:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[bNo, I feel the original poster is right when he notes Mulhorand and Unther as prejudiced areas in the Old Empires. Those quotes are all for Chessenta. The people of Unther and Chessenta (the Mulan people) are very humancentric.
I agree with you guys - at least that first part. I think the people of Unther and Mulhorand (and probably Murghôm) are Mulanocentric. They don't take too kindly to other humans (or demihumans) either.
Goblins are a special case. I think thousands of years of inbreeding (and harsh treatment by everyone else) has left them both mentally challenged, and completely insane. Once again, 'stupid' is not the same as insane. The character Dexter from the show of the same name is insane... and is a genius. Goblins are BOTH crazy and mentally handicapped; I am not implying they are smart - they are definitely NOT smart (unlike Orcs and other goblinoids) - think of them as a pack of wild 5-year-old children. You see/read Lord of the Flies? Like that. I love Golarion's take on them, and its a perfect fit for the Realms. The story Vision in the Realms of Infamy anthology depicts their culture splendidly.
However, there are examples of fairly smart goblins, like the Stonelands goblins. That could be because there was some sort of goblin kingdom in that region at some point (although there is some inconsistencies within canon as to where & when). What that means is that there is even hope for goblins - perhaps a few generations of non-inbreeding (and not being beaten constantly by other races) could fix a tribe. Specifically, the Teerac-on-Water goblins are fairly advanced for their kind, can tolerate sunlight, and trade with others. In fact, I theorized they would develop a trading-post eventually (starting around the time of 3e and on into 4e). The trading-post is called Gwarch... and it made it into canon thanks to Brian James.
Some day I'd love to detail that place... maybe when (and if) we ever get to do another CKC. I had to come up with a reason why the Shades wouldn't have obliterated it, and I did; you see, the crater that formed the lake is special - there is something at the bottom that is creating one of the only known magic-dead zones that also doesn't allow Shadow magic. Thats right... NO weave, arcane or otherwise. Even divine magic doesn't work there. Sucks for the Shades, eh? Its not a very large area - just the settlement (on the tiny island) and lake, and a few hundred feet out from the shore. The Trading post is that ring around the shore (only goblinods are allowed on the island), and certain groups - like Zhents - are forced to camp beyond the ring (leaving them susceptible to night-time raids by Netherese). The place is a beehive of intrigue. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 15:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How did humans in the North stop orcs from trying to be peaceful before Many Arrows?
They used to laugh and call them names?
But seriously, some 10,000 years of fighting with the elves, then 10,000 years of fighting with the dwarves, and then 10,000 years fighting with humans (Netherese) would make anyone grumpy. And in every case, they were being pushed out of lands they already occupied.
What lands? Where is it stated, in canon, that orcs lost any lands? And also, where is it stated that they tried anything other than rampaging hordes, in the North?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Orcs are chaotic, but they aren't stupid. If faced with a choice of 'getting along' or extinction, they would choose peace. This has been demonstrated in canon sources time and again. Only the religious zealots would attack in a situation they knew they couldn't win, and those are far and few between (most orcs just aren't all that religious, and pay lip-service whomever their shaman says to). I am not saying they are nice people - they are jerks (and WOULD attack in a situation where they knew they could win), but they aren't stupid, and too many people seem to think they are.
Orcs elsewhere may have demonstrated this, but the history of the North proves that that time and time again, orcs have not chosen peace. They have, time and time again, chosen to rampage across thousands of square miles, killing people whose only offense was being in their path.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think in the case of orcs, 'mob mentality' tends to override their limited logic. If the scariest orc in the bunch (which could be the Shaman - they fear magic) is a psycho, he CAN whip the others into a bloodlust. Humans and others are less prone to that... but it still happens. If the toughest orc leans toward peace - as Obould did - they will at least try to be peaceful. Orcs are lazy - they simply 'go with the flow'.
Actually, the Dragon article that discusses the current state of Many Arrows shows that there is a strong faction in the nation pushing for war, and specifically agitating against the status quo. So even with peace being a done deal, there are orcs that do not want peace and will work against it. |
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was many arrows a narrative mistake?
