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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 12:56:11
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Ok I have a new player who is obviously a power gamer. He is more interested in building an indestructible character. So far he has been walking through every encounter and its making it harder on the other players. I have to up the encounter levels just to have a challenge. This player is telling me that any rule in any book is fair game and he has not consulted me on any new feats or new abilities that he decides to take. I argue with him constantly and our games have devolved into rules arguing. I need help with trying to figure out how to handle this. He is my best friend's son in law so just kicking him out is problematic. A little help please?
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Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 13:00:55
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First off, feats and abilities HAVE to be approved by you. If you need help on that, point to some of the pages where it talks about GM approval.
Second, if he's arguing so much about the rules, through non-rules challenges his way. A king that doesn't like his attitude or, if he's got high charisma skills, views him as a threat and throws him in a dungeon without any of his gear for a session or two. (Harsh, but gets the point across.)
Third (and last) explain to him it's a game where EVERYONE should be having fun. This included the other players and yourself. If he's the only one having fun, raise the question with the other players at the table and take a vote so he can see how he's affecting the overall game. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 18 Dec 2013 13:02:49 |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 13:30:29
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| The king idea is fantastic. I could totally use that. Thanks for the help. Its gotten to the point where the game ia no longer fun. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 13:36:11
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He is NOT ALLOWED to use any rule you haven't approved of.
D&D is full of broken rules, and thats why we have DM's. You have to put him in his place - he is NOT allowed to just use whatever the hell he wants. If he refuses to follow your rules, then toss him out of the group. He is power-gaming at the expense of everyone else's fun; the game is ABOUT HAVING FUN, not being a selfish douche.
You can have him run into an orc, that turns out to be an avatar of Gruumsh, Or have him run into the Terrasque (who for some strange reason simply ignores the rest of the party). If he yells, "No fair!", simply show him that its 'in a book', and therefor you should be allowed to use it. If he can use anything from any book, so should you. A few of those level-draining undead should also teach him a valuable lesson about what you can do, and what you should do. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2013 13:41:22 |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 14:11:48
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| I was just going over some of his feats and he got them from D&D wiki. Some of these are so broken they are stupid. Im going to have him scrap his character and if he leaves he leaves. Its getting pretty stupid. I had all the other characters start of as npc classes and they scraped and clawed for what they got...he comes in ans is making snide remarks about how their treasure isn't correct for their level. The whole bleedin point was so the players would appreciate what its like coming from nothing. Heck some of the players rolled commoners at first level. I had them roll randomly for starting classes. The whole theme was supposed to be about these people thrust into the hero position. I thought it would allow for massive character growth. Someone always has to pee in the pool. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 14:20:42
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I firmly believe that all powergamers (aka min-maxers) need to have their spirits broken. It's simply wrong for one person to turn the entire gaming session into a "ME ME ME WIN WIN WIN" festival at the expense of all the other players.
The thing about powergamers is that they are usually minimizing (or gimping) some of their stats, skills, or whatever, so that they can be highly effective in basic combat. If they've done that, change the encounters so that they are combat-minimal. Make your game heavy in politics and mystery, heavy on roleplaying and puzzle challenges, that actually become much more difficult to complete if an NPC gets killed. Turns out that NPC was their contact, or someone very important. Oops, that player offended the noble... or they've insulted their underground contacts, and they have to work to rebuild trust in order to get anywhere with those essential NPCs.
Min-maxers often feel powerless when confronted with non-combat encounters. They're so focused on combat that they have almost no skills for dealing with other "checks" that they might need to make.
Or they've gimped their INT or some other stat, which you can turn around and make essential. That very low CHA score means NPCs won't trust or even like working with him, and that's bad when encounters require negotiation and information-seeking.
Exploit his weaknesses, make his strengths irrelevant.
If he's a "glass cannon" then separate him from the group and have him fight something that entirely works around his specific skill set and takes huge advantage of all his weaknesses. Load his enemies with magic items that defeat his min-max skill set, and make the magic items limited-charge-based (and expended after combat) so that he can't then take the items after the combat encounter to become even more powerful.
This is all up to you as DM, because the Dungeon Master, must approve any and all rules that are used, including feats and skill choices. Powergamers only powergame if the DM allows it. Rule #1 can be "no arguing with the DM" and if you give him three warnings on arguing over a rule arbitration... he's OUT.
HOWEVER, make sure that he's not just being a highly effective player instead of a powergamer. It's good for players to be effective, but it's often game-breaking if they're powergaming when it's not that kind of game.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 18 Dec 2013 14:31:54 |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 15:48:04
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An effective player he is not. A rules lawyer....definitely. I tried the whole making the story more intrigued based and just got complaints because it is a campaign based on war and a githyanki invasion. Dear Sylvanus I'm going to have my work cut out for me.
I do have to say that I appreciate everyone's help. It has been a long time since I have been posting on here...its like coming home to old friends. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 16:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
I was just going over some of his feats and he got them from D&D wiki. Some of these are so broken they are stupid. Im going to have him scrap his character and if he leaves he leaves. Its getting pretty stupid. I had all the other characters start of as npc classes and they scraped and clawed for what they got...he comes in ans is making snide remarks about how their treasure isn't correct for their level. The whole bleedin point was so the players would appreciate what its like coming from nothing. Heck some of the players rolled commoners at first level. I had them roll randomly for starting classes. The whole theme was supposed to be about these people thrust into the hero position. I thought it would allow for massive character growth. Someone always has to pee in the pool.
Oh wow, D&D Wiki is FULL of broken homebrew material that it's ridiculously questionable. Heck, even some Dragon content is suspect. That's one of the major problems I always had in running 3.5 (which is what I'm assuming your playing with?). I mean, if your players are starting with levels in NPC classes (strictly inferior to PC classes from the start) and he's rolling in with Wiki-created feats and PC classes, it's going to be a huge divide in power.
I agree that his character needs scrapped ASAP. Second, as a DM, I always make a sheet of house-rules and campaign specific rules that every player has knowledge prior to going into a campaign. This helps sort out any confusion at character creation and as to the style of the campaign. The fact that your using NPC classes to start and then going into PC classes changes the style of the game and it might not be something this sort of player is interested in.
Also, I suggest you be firm in your authority in what is and isn't allowed at the table. This includes every single rule printed. Honestly I usually let my players use anything from the books and Dragon/D&D Wiki are always approved by me first. If a combo has unforeseen consequences and/or broken-ness then we change it once it's been used. That's just the nature of the game. Further, it's not fun when someone is hogging all the lime-light the entire game.
I also suggest throwing a really hard challenge at the party. This might sound mean but I get the feeling that the rest of your players are pretty smart and actually have a lot invested with their characters thus they would probably know when a challenge is too far above their head to square off against and retreat. The same might not be said of your power-gamer player. He might just assume it's a challenge, but something that can be overcome and take it head on.
It would be helpful to know what your players currently are, what level your playing at, with which ruleset, and perhaps what options are allowed. This would go along way to helping your devise ways to perhaps challenge your group in other, non-combat ways. |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 17:40:04
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| We are running a 3.5 Forgotte Realms campaign. The pcs had to roll randomly at character generation to see what npc class they started qith. We had a smattering of everything from warriors commoners and experts surprisingly no nobles. Their npc class dictated which pc class they would be going into. They have 2 levels of their npc classes and currently have 4 actual class levels. We have a ranger/expert, warrior/fighter, adept/witch, warrior/barbarian, and an expert/ninja/fighter/pain in my arse. They are currently raising an army to help their besieged kingdom. The other players started out together coming from the same small hamlet. The ninja thing joined later. Aside from trying to take the party's magic items for himself. ..he has killed 2 bound and helpless prisoners telling me that a ninja wouldnt leave an enemy alive. When I tell him its an evil act we argue till I get up from the table. Therea a little info if you need anything else just ask. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 18:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
We are running a 3.5 Forgotte Realms campaign. The pcs had to roll randomly at character generation to see what npc class they started qith. We had a smattering of everything from warriors commoners and experts surprisingly no nobles. Their npc class dictated which pc class they would be going into. They have 2 levels of their npc classes and currently have 4 actual class levels. We have a ranger/expert, warrior/fighter, adept/witch, warrior/barbarian, and an expert/ninja/fighter/pain in my arse. They are currently raising an army to help their besieged kingdom. The other players started out together coming from the same small hamlet. The ninja thing joined later. Aside from trying to take the party's magic items for himself. ..he has killed 2 bound and helpless prisoners telling me that a ninja wouldnt leave an enemy alive. When I tell him its an evil act we argue till I get up from the table. Therea a little info if you need anything else just ask.
Ouch. Well for one thing killing a bound and helpless person IS evil regardless of what the player might think. That wouldn't be up for discussion. As for challenging him, I think spells or poison might do the trick. His saves might be a bit high with Exp/Ninja/Ftr levels but with the proper DC (something he shouldn't know about) it could completely dismantle him. I prefer Hold Person. Also, if he's a power-gamer then he's probably SUPER-STATing. This means he puts a ridiculous amount of effort and points into one of his stats and judging by his concept, I think it's probably Dexterity. This means he's ripe for lower spells like Ray of Clumsiness. A 6th level Githyanki sorcerer or wizard with this spell can drop his Dex by 1d6+3 which would practically ruin his Attacks, AC, Reflex saves, and almost ALL his movement-based abilities. I used this same tactic with a Swordsage (Tome of Battle) character who thought he was some bad-arse guy who could get away with anything.
With Expert/Ninja/Fighter as his classes, make absolutely sure he's not breaking the multiclass rule for XP penalties. It's sorta cheesy, but it's a way of bringing in multiclass munchkin-ism.
Also, make sure that when treasure is handed out, it's done in a way that the characters are aware. Having him find the treasure hold gives him the opportunity to "steal" in character. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 18:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
We have a ranger/expert, warrior/fighter, adept/witch, warrior/barbarian, and an expert/ninja/fighter/pain in my arse.
 What level does he have in that last class, and what book is it in? |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 18:09:03
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well my first question zealot in response to your ninja problem is whats wrong with doing something evil? Give him an alignment change subtly, why not play on his ego and pass him notes here and there and see what he does? Rolling for things on the side trying to become more powerful, and eventually if he becomes CE, just present him an opportunity to run across an artifact, of course he'll have to make a Wis save, attempt to identify it, etc if he wants to safely know what it is. However, seeing as how he hungers for power why not have it call out to him, and then when he puts his hands on it, it turns out to be some aritifact of holy smiting, etc etc etc, which suddenly starts dancing and attempts to kill him on the spot.
His lust for power is what killed him, for ultimate power ultimately corrupts, and his corruption was inevitable. |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 18:20:00
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Woolly in answer to your question he is pushing epic levels...im pretty sure of it.
I have started him on his slide towards evil. Ive also started checking pretty much everything with his character since writing down his full attack bonus with all modifiers is too much work for him. In game ita going to be interesting seeing as the fighter of the group wants to move into a holy warrior type prestige. I juat think he really threw me off cause in the years of playing I've onlh run into this once and it was years ago and a much younger player. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 18:28:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
We have a ranger/expert, warrior/fighter, adept/witch, warrior/barbarian, and an expert/ninja/fighter/pain in my arse.
What level does he have in that last class, and what book is it in?
Well he said they have two levels in their NPC class and 4 regular class levels. So it's probably something like Expert 2/ Ninja 3/ Fighter 1 or Expert 2/ Ninja 2/ Fighter 2. From a min/max standpoint, it's really only good to get even-numbered fighter levels for the bonus feat and, really, only to about 4th level where you get Weapon Specialization. After that, it's pointless to go further into the Fighter class.
The Ninja is detailed in Complete Adventurer and has Ki-based class features. If the Fighter is only a one-level dip, then it's more likely that he'll be taking on more Ninja levels to promote the uses of his Ki ability (since it's 1/2 level + Wisdom modifier per day). With that said, I'd be wary of him amping up his Craft (poison-making) skill, which I'm sure he's probably putting ranks into to make his own poisons. If that's the case make sure you work with him so that he can craft poisons only you permit into the game.
I also agree with Tetra_koiwai in allowing him to do evil acts. I mean, they are evil and it does require an Alignment change which will affect the campaign and his possible alliance with the other PCs. But it could also advance his character growth and he could possibly turn into a villain for the other PCs to kill or capture. I've had campaigns turn into that sort of thing but it remember that it can cause player vs. player disputes and possible table disruption. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 18:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
Woolly in answer to your question he is pushing epic levels...im pretty sure of it.
I have started him on his slide towards evil. I've also started checking pretty much everything with his character since writing down his full attack bonus with all modifiers is too much work for him. In game ita going to be interesting seeing as the fighter of the group wants to move into a holy warrior type prestige. I just think he really threw me off cause in the years of playing I've only run into this once and it was years ago and a much younger player.
Can I ask how your players obtained their Stats? Also, what are his modifiers? If he's approx 6th level (ECL 5th due to two levels of NPC classes) then his Attack modifier should be around +9 and he gets 1-attack per turn (or two if he's dual-wielding weapons). I got +9 because (+4 Base Attack Bonus [Expert lv. 2 = +1, Ninja lv. 3 = +2, Fighter lv. 1 = +1 PLUS Dexterity 18 = +4 PLUS a masterwork or +1 weapon) for a total of +9. He can't add his Dexterity modifier to his weapon damage rolls unless he took some obscure feats. |
Edited by - Diffan on 18 Dec 2013 18:37:42 |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 18:44:11
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I think you should just make him into a villain, he wants it, you want everyone wants it. He's a pain in the ass and he wants to have fun. But nudge him slowly, once he becomes evil aligned have him start making will saves to withold himself from continuing to beat a dead body, Or maybe have it so if he starts to eat the fresh flesh of a fallen enemy he gains back a couple hit points. So slowly he becomes a monster and the party sees him for what he is. Let him go his own way and help him in doing so, but show him there are consequences for his actions. Take away a couple charisma points for eating flesh and what not, tell him when he wakes up that he looks haggard or that his character seems to have some type of taint on and in him as he becomes more and more evil, and let him relish in it. Let him love to be evil, and then, when the enemy has fallen and power stands at his feet. The party will know that they must kill him, he would have served his purpose then and anyone with half a brain would know that if you put food in front of a dog he'll eat it, just as surely as if you put power in front of this particular player he will take it for himself. Use him as a tool, and let the other players decide what they will do with him. If he wants to take on the party then let him try, by the time they get high in levels I'm sure at least one of them would have found a way to have a counter measure against this person, and by then it'll be too late.
"We planned on killing you months ago before it even came down to this, now it's just a matter of putting you down."
Who's really the bad guy here type of ending will be pretty sweet. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 18:46:05
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| Heh he's from Kara-Tur and thus, the Oriental Campaign setting. Might be a great way to introduce Taint into the game. That's always a lot of fun! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 19:03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
Ive also started checking pretty much everything with his character since writing down his full attack bonus with all modifiers is too much work for him.
Wait, he doesn't even know his attack bonus and he's doing all this? I say next time you go into battle, every time he tries to hit something, tell him he misses. No matter what he rolls. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 19:28:05
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Bloody hell Tetra you are an evil genius. Not only will that help it will be a lesson for everyone else.
As for their stats they started off pitifully. I did the old school 3d6 they stay where they lay. I think the highest stat in the party was a 13. The beginning of the campaign was the players playing detective and finding what was rotten in the state. When they hot their first player level I have them 12 points to distribute anyway they wanted as long as it didnt go over racial max. They ended up with decent but not earth shattering stats and I thought it reflected their training. I knew there would be a problem when Sir Piss Me Off joined the game and during the first game session he said he had a 2 charisma. It was then I had to explain that put them anywhere didnt mean move your stats wherever. He has a character with 4 arms and wants to uae multi weapon fighting. Then he tells me any feat that affects the two weapon fighting feat affects multi weapon fighting so he is going to take oversized two weapon fighting so he can weild 4 katanas and I say no. So he pitches a fit and decides his character is a little bas&&$. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 19:44:18
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I love the idea of a four armed katana wielding ninja
And I'm sure the common man who sees this reacts in the same way any logical person would.
"BY THE GODS WHAT IS THAT!?!"
Roll initiative.
He has a Charisma score of two, I'm pretty darn sure a Minotaur might roll higher, so when entering a city the guards outside should automatically attempt to slay him, of course he should immediately roll for a diplomacy check and should he fail they will call out for back up and attempt to flank him, one guard should always try to talk with the party to figure out what in the nine hells they party is traveling with.
Just be more realistic with your scores, I mean if some four armed beast tried to get into my city I'd say no, and if the party convinced me that it's ok then I'd say fine but two paladins must always walk with him and he can only stay in a certain inn, at which point he is set on a strict schedule and not allowed to travel alone ever, should he be found wondering the town unescourted he will be slain on sight. It's not that the person is a bad guy per se, you just have to convince him to be a good guy, nudge him alittle in both ways. Give him the opportunity to do good, but also allow him the opportunity to be evil. Which ever way he falls well... He stays where he lays, If he wants to be obnoxious and defiant then have the NPC's be the same way with him, if he wants to start doing the right thing and going with the flow and tries to be a good tank then again, let him go for it, but always nudge him. Slowly but surely you'll make him either a great character or a great villain, and either way the party wins and everyone has fun. Every now and then you gotta put him in the back seat so he has to help another party member accomplish a task or talk with some one or try to get to know each other more, force interaction between your players and have them grow. The fun is in having an adventure not rolling dice around, you know that more than anyone. And if it turns out that he has more fun rolling dice around, then let em, just have him roll for secret stuff all the time, and see how his character reacts and what he does. In time the other PC's might see that again it's best to part ways with him or simply allow him to die should he fall in combat, Why?
"my character is Lawful good, and her character is Chaotic Neutral, and his character is Chaotic good, All of us don't think it's best to waste money reviving someone who will likely betray them later."
He can't give you the "IT'S NOT FAIR" or anything like that, other people decided what to do, the decision was theres. It doesn't mean they aren't up for him playing with them as a new person it just means that this perticular person is to dangerous or too much of a pain. He's trying to min max when he should be trying to become useful. min maxing isn't becoming useful either, it's bypassing the game. the concept in if someone works for a living but spends ALL of their money on lottery tickets. That isn't living that's trying to win enough money to where you never have to work again, but in doing that you live in the worst state of being, a person who owns and has nothing, a person who enjoys nothing, has no friends and is truly and utterly alone. Find out what your pain is, and let him find out what he is. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 20:04:29
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Wow, a CHA score of 2. He would have very little, if any, ability to make friends, contacts, support... it almost seems like he intentionally chose to play a jerk but it's roleplayed out in real life. Perfect opportunity to have min-maxing bite him in the butt and require social-roleplay CHA skill checks for everything they do in town, then when he rolls a natural 1 on a d20, let a noble or the guards imprison him for "showing himself as an enemy of the state"...
Definitely a lot of social consequences everywhere with a CHA of 2. What a swell guy, heh. 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 20:10:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
Bloody hell Tetra you are an evil genius. Not only will that help it will be a lesson for everyone else.
It's pretty clever, lol.
quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
As for their stats they started off pitifully. I did the old school 3d6 they stay where they lay. I think the highest stat in the party was a 13. The beginning of the campaign was the players playing detective and finding what was rotten in the state. When they hot their first player level I have them 12 points to distribute anyway they wanted as long as it didnt go over racial max. They ended up with decent but not earth shattering stats and I thought it reflected their training.
Sounds quite gritty. I like it. While I'm a fan of strong-styled games I do find the bare-minimum gritty game quite a challenge.
quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
I knew there would be a problem when Sir Piss Me Off joined the game and during the first game session he said he had a 2 charisma. It was then I had to explain that put them anywhere didnt mean move your stats wherever.
Hm, not really sure how he got a 2 Charisma unless his race gets a penalty to Charisma scores or something. with 3d6 rolling, he should've at least got a 3. Now when they rolled for their stats, was it in a row or did they get to assign the numbers once rolled?
quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
He has a character with 4 arms and wants to uae multi weapon fighting. Then he tells me any feat that affects the two weapon fighting feat affects multi weapon fighting so he is going to take oversized two weapon fighting so he can weild 4 katanas and I say no. So he pitches a fit and decides his character is a little bas&&$.
Hehe, well technically Multiweapon Fighting replaces Two-Weapon Fighting to qualify for Feats so he's not wrong there. Ok, lets keep in mind a few things here. First, a Katana costs 325 gp per weapon. It's because they're treated as Masterwork Bastard Swords. So right there it's 1,300 gp for four of them. Next, Multiweapon Fighting lessens the penalty for fighting with these weapons by -4. So even IF he had a Strength score of 18 (+4 modifier) and a +4 Base Attack Bonus AND Weapon Focus (Katana) AND their Masterwork quality, which BTW brings his attack modifier to +10, it would then drop all of his attacks to +6 each. Even by adding in Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, his attacks still drop to +8 each. I mean, it's not bad but it only functions with full-attack options. The key is getting him to be more mobile so that he can't execute full-attack actions. Even a 10-ft move reduces his attacks to one attack per round.
With his charisma so low, I'd bet that no one in his group utilizes buff-style magic on him. Were I a cleric or wizard in that party he would receive zero spells to help him better in combat. Especially if he's killing prisoners, then he'd receive only the smallest amount of healing and that would only be because the cleric might have some morals of their own to uphold.
Also, why'd you let him use a race with 4 arms? |
Edited by - Diffan on 18 Dec 2013 20:14:01 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 22:04:00
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| With a Cha that low, no one would take the character into a party in my opinion. The role play clearly should be a factor, playing high Int is hard, playing low Cha clearly is not hard. With a Cha of 2, no one really would want to be about such a creature. A hire only for abilities, award 1/2 of EX. Pts. if that for helping with an encounter, treat the PC as an NPC or hireling. Of course expel from the game might make better sense. Of course having level draining attacks clearly should be effective as well. A vampire, for example, would target the most powerful character seen. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 22:05:32
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I'm going to state things from a different angle...and please do not take offense as that is not my intention. All of the advice given thus far is solid and/or creative. My advice is to be a STRONG DM. Weak DMing is just as much of an issue here. For instance, you should NOT be calculating his attack bonuses for him. It's his character and it's his responsibility, not yours. He's running roughshod over your campaign because you're letting him and you owe it to everyone at that table to put a stop to it.
You can choose whatever method you want for dealing with him (my vote is simply telling him to bugger off and that he's not welcome at your gaming table anymore, end of story but that's just me). I have had to deal with players like this before, one of which was so bad no one wanted to play anymore (several of them were new to the game...and that was sad and made me extremely angry). Anyway, decide what to do and then 'stick to your guns' as me mom used to say. Only other advice I see as necessary is discussing the situation with the other players so they understand why it had to happen. I'm sure they aren't having a good time and wouldn't mind seeing his character bite the dust and the player deciding it's not worth it to play anymore.
@Therise (kind of): I'm a power gamer although I don't min/max. I try to create effective characters (unless my concept forbids it) and I most certainly NEVER hog the glory. I only do things 'over the top' when the group is in trouble, assuming I've built the character in such a way as to allow for something truly powerful. I started a thread awhile back about broken builds just to see what could be done...and even I was shocked at how broken the game could be and still be 'within' the rules. There is a difference between exploitive power gaming (a big NO NO) and effective power gaming (which should be acceptable in most cases). YMMV. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 19 Dec 2013 00:16:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 22:12:10
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I didn't think humans can have stats below 3?
Also, since anyone can write feats to the wiki, that means he may be writing his own feats: I saw a player do something similar years ago, in a game I wasn't involved in - the guy showed-up with some sort of errata sheet (with bad mispellings) and said his characters had all those items. He basically typed-up his own rules and handed them to the DM. I put a stop to it - I recognized the items from novels (all deus-ex-machina type McGuffins).
Send the party to Waterdeep (or there-abouts), and have The Amalgamation run into him. That ought to be a hoot; if you have them place a regeneration ring on him, they'll have fun vivisecting him until the end of time. 
*The Amalgamation (I think that was the name) was a group featured in the City of Splendors novel by Elaine and Ed. They would be highly interested in a four-armed individual.
*Grammatical Corrections |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Dec 2013 13:53:11 |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 00:23:51
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| Its not about being a strong DM its the politics of the situation. He is my best friend's son in law. I actually laid down the law before and he seems to be ignoring me. Now about the 2 Cha that changed really quick when I told him it was impossible. What he did was when he was told about the extra points to assign where he wanted them...he took the totals of his stats and assigned them wherever he wanted. He is playing a race out of Mythic Races that has 4 arms. Now the description of the race says their extra arms strength is 2 less than their full strength. I told him its hard to wield katanas with his weaker arms but bugger me Im just the DM. I also tried to explain to him that he will be swinging 4 katanas in a very limited space. I guess I can be wrong. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 07:58:12
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Is there someone else at the table that is going to have a problem with dealing with this guy? I mean, your best friend will still be your best friend. If he's going to give you grief over it them I'm not sure how strong that friendship is (but I'm not sitting at your table so I dunno). Either way, if this guy is ruining the play experience for everyone else...he's either gonna have fix his attitude or leave the table. I know I'm coming across a bit strong but problem players are a real sore spot for me...they ruin it for everyone involved and, personally, I have never seen a problem player be 'fixed' in my 25 years of gaming. It just never ends well from my experience (I say this having been both a DM and a player in groups with different types of problem players...including crappy DMs).
I'm a very 'brass tax' kinda guy and the problem isn't complicated. In the end, politics or not, you have a player with a bad attitude and only one of two things can happen...he checks the attitude or leaves. All I'm saying is, those are the only two options when you strip away everything else. It's just a matter of how you want to go about forcing him to fix the problem (which I'm sure he will not do) or telling him he's not welcome anymore. Beyond that, it's just a matter of communicating with the other players and, from what you describe, I can't see anyone having an issue with how you handle it...including your best friend.
I'm honestly sorry for the tone of my post it's just a very abrasive subject for me as I've dealt with some of the worst people in my gaming. I'm sure your friend and everyone else will understand. Good luck. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 08:21:13
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Ok, so his attacks for using his two extra arms would be -1 to both attacks and damage rolls. Also, I'd throw more creatures that have flying at the party. This would then limit his effectiveness and would also change tactics of the group. Now there's more incentive to try to ground these enemies so he can do his dervish whirl-wind death thing.
EDIT: just found out that the race he's using isn't even a Wizards of the Coast product. The race, Siarrans, are from Mythic Races supplement and a Fantasy Flight Games product. Based on those grounds alone, I would instantly ban the character as there is no race in the Forgotten Realms setting. I would then walk him through the character creation process and lay down which races, classes, and combos are allowed. |
Edited by - Diffan on 19 Dec 2013 09:08:46 |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 13:04:12
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| Thanks for everything. After some discussion he sat out a game session. We are scrapping his character and starting over. This time I will be going through character generation with him. We have also set a rule that once a rule has been ruled on there wont be any arguong the situation again.I am also going over the gritty campaign concept again and explaining why the other players who have worked hard to get where they are, are enjoying themselves. I am also going over the reasons feats are limited. I am going to try to be politic about it but at this point I could give a flying fart in space if he stays or goes. We had a plesant game without him and his wife actually had a good time without him bullying her into flanking for him and telling her what to do. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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a little dm help
