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SS
Acolyte
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 15:12:07
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So, in Paul Kemp's latest book The Godborn (The Sundering, Book II), there's a character called Orsin who's meant to be a deva and even decribes himself as one:
"In the Dalelands they called me a deva. But I’ve been called other things in other places, in other lives. Aasimar. Celestial. But deva suits me well enough . And Orsin suits me best.”
My understanding is that deva's are of Good alignment (they are practically "angels"), and although Orsin does have Good characteristics, he also worships Mask (which now is Drasek Riven). Why would a deva worship an evil god? Seems a bit weird to me...
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Jergals Spare Scythe
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 15:51:43
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I'm not too clear on devas, but Aasimar can be of any alignment. They just tend toward good as part of their nature. Orsin struck me as neutral, which isn't too much of a stretch for a worshiper of a NE deity. Orsin is not a priest or divine caster, rather a monk/shadowdancer (if I remember correctly) so I imagine it would be less of an issue.
As an aside, you might put a spoiler warning in your title next time, as not everyone might know yet some of the details you listed. :) |
"Seek to bring order to the chaos of life, for in death there is finality and a fixedness of state. Be ready for death for it is at hand and uncompromising."
Excerpt from Jergal's Dogma, Faiths and Pantheons, page 99 |
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SS
Acolyte
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 16:27:18
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Sorry, I'm new to the forum, so didn't know about "spoiler" warning.
Thanks for your answers, they make sense. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 19:14:46
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| SS: Devas are usually of good alignment (they are angelic). That does not mean that ALL devas are good and there are cases of 'fallen angels' in the lore. As Jergal pointed out, a Neutral deva worshipping a NE deity isn't a huge stretch. I haven't read PSKs other novels about these characters so I don't know Orsin's story. Perhaps someone else will share why he is non-good and worships an evil deity (hint hint). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 01:26:46
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To be fair, Mask doesn't really seem that evil in the Erevis Cale books, at least not in the last trilogy.
Riven was certainly evil at the start of the series, but he also doesn't seem outright evil in the latest books.
I think there's more than enough room for Mask to have "neutral" followers. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 02:19:30
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For what it's worth, Mask's worshipers were previously allowed to be LE, NE or CE. And Mask was evil primarily because he is intimately associated with thieves, theft, stealing, etc. Theft isn't a neutral activity, it causes harm in many circumstances.
Aasimar were allowed to be any alignment. Devas were a special type of especially virtuous Aasimar that were reborn again and again, and typically were LG, NG, or CG who became rakshasas in their next life if they ever turned to evil. The fact that Orsin wasn't a rakshasa indicates that he wasn't evil, so probably the best conclusion one might draw from this is that Orsin is unique. Another possibility is that Mask is changing in some way. After all, he was trying to halt Shar's world-ending shadowstorm and he did; if effect, he stole something from the goddess of loss - in so doing, this was his greatest theft of all and it wasn't an evil act.
Mask's actions at the end were, well... virtuous, and I'd say that a god considered evil engaging in a virtuous act is VERY interesting and more than enough to draw the attention and admiration of a Deva.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Dec 2013 02:23:30 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 02:27:04
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Come to think of it, devas have wings and Orsin doesn't...so 'deva' may have just been used as a general term for him. Unless his wings were removed he can't actually be a deva (I haven't read anything else about him other than Godborn so I don't know). I would think he's an aaisimar instead. Anyone have any other info on him from Kemp's other novels?
Therise: I don't recall the deva/rakshasa connection...where is that lore from? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 02:34:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Come to think of it, devas have wings and Orsin doesn't...so 'deva' may have just been used as a general term for him. Unless his wings were removed he can't actually be a deva (I haven't read anything else about him other than Godborn so I don't know). I would think he's an aaisimar instead. Anyone have any other info on him from Kemp's other novels?
Therise: I don't recall the deva/rakshasa connection...where is that lore from?
AFAIK, the deva-to-rakshasa thing is an entirely new addition in 4E (introduced in Dragon #374, "Ecology of the Deva"). I don't think it was ever said in any prior edition that devas who became evil would turn into rakshasas.
It's probably the continuing cycle of rebirth that gives Orsin the "deva" qualifier, beyond just being a "regular" Aasimar.
Also, 4E pretty dramatically re-framed a lot of long-established terms, in terms of definitions for celestials, half-celestials, archfey, part-demons, tieflings, cambions, and part-devils. Just one example, beings that are considered "Eladrin" today (post-4E) are no longer just celestial fey, but include sun elves and other elvish sub-races. Similarly, devas no longer have wings, but are more like tieflings in that they derive physical characteristics from their celestial parent... for some, this might mean wings, but others might have no wings at all. Some devas have a coatl parent, so they might have patches of shimmery scales on their bodies and others might look like elegant humans with weird magical tattoos. Highly varied post-4E, really.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Dec 2013 02:59:23 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 03:00:53
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Ah I see...it's 4e and therefore beyond my experience as I refused to go any further than the initial rulebooks and the FRCG (and I barely skimmed through it after reading some of the hogwash in it). Thanks.
All this takes me back to my original issues with the setting/lore changes. I may end up being one of those who stays pre-spellplague, assuming they don't correct the lore to mesh with prior editions. It's just too jarring for me...it's like having to learn a whole new game.
Sorry for the minirant...please return to your regularly scheduled programs. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 03:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Ah I see...it's 4e and therefore beyond my experience as I refused to go any further than the initial rulebooks and the FRCG (and I barely skimmed through it after reading some of the hogwash in it). Thanks.
All this takes me back to my original issues with the setting/lore changes. I may end up being one of those who stays pre-spellplague, assuming they don't correct the lore to mesh with prior editions. It's just too jarring for me...it's like having to learn a whole new game.
Sorry for the minirant...please return to your regularly scheduled programs.
No worries, I understand, believe me. There was a lot to take in with 4E. If you're willing, stick around and give 5E a fair shake, though. I think things will probably turn out okay even if they're not my ideal vision. Potentially, even great. 
And for what it's worth, I don't mind some of the changes like the re-ordering of celestial/nefarious terminology. Previously, Rakshasa just used to be evil outsiders from LE outer planes without a whole lot more to them than weird animal heads and backwards hands. And that imagery probably had a lot to do with Mulhorandi ancestry (celestial children of the gods) and how that particular culture viewed power... to have an animal head was crazy fierce and rather scary to a mortal, but it also might've just been the Rakshasa's inherent ability to shapechange.
To quote one of my humorous gaming group members, the first time we ran across a rakshasa (years ago) that had the head of a bird, "really... the head of a bird... how Egyptian" (said with massive eye-rolling), and "is it named Teal'c?"  So it's kinda nice they're getting some additional lore.
I sort of like the idea that Aasimar and Devas got "disconnected" from many of their gods because of the Spellplague and the damage to the outer planes. It allows both devas and aasimar to be more diverse, philosophically and spiritually, and also physically. So it's not all bad.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Dec 2013 03:27:49 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 14:58:09
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| I think Orsin is tied back to the Shadowwalkers from the Twilight War trilogy, so he is linked to Mask and specifically the domain of Shadow. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 16:55:17
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I think one has to do an act of extreme evil and Orsin hasn't done anything bad enough. Worshipping an 'Evil God" who may not be Evil anymore and stealing things isn't evil enough. You need to make a horrifying act, like mass murder, torture, genocide, rape, cannibalism of living beings, etc... just my personal understanding of it.
PS 4e's change to Aasmir was amoung the worst of the spellplague, it made no sense and now puts the writers in a pickle were they have to resovle the contradictions in prespellplague aasmir and post spellplague Aasmir.
Given Aasmir is apparently now a Mulhorand word, I had an idea. Aasmir could be a stort form for mortal angel, or Celestial blooded, like a base word. So reincarnating Angels Devas could be Ra'das'Aasmir and the planetouched Aasmir could be Hth'aasmir, with Ra being a reference to the Sun God and rebirth and Hth'Na'Aasmir being a refence to Hathor would is accoicated with Ferility. So Ra'das'Aasmir could mean The Mortal Angel Servants of Ra and Hth'Na'Aasmir could mean Angel Blooded Child Of Hathor or something.
Wow, the solution is so simple to squaring this circle, I'm amazed I've missed it for so long. This type of logic could be applied to Tieflings and Genasi and other races with simular situtations.
I feel like I'm channeling Daniel Jackson. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 17:13:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I think one has to do an act of extreme evil and Orsin hasn't done anything bad enough. Worshipping an 'Evil God" who may not be Evil anymore and stealing things isn't evil enough. You need to make a horrifying act, like mass murder, torture, genocide, rape, cannibalism of living beings, etc... just my personal understanding of it.
This is an interesting idea worth exploring further, I think: what is "evil enough" and how do we define evil in this new age?
It's especially important given that thievery (or roguery? is that a word?) can no longer be viewed as "black and white" evil with a capital E. Mask himself, in Kemp's novels, stole things from Cyric and Shar, as well as preventing the Shadowstorm. Mask's Chosen demonstrably acted against evil, which I think is a powerful argument for opening up Mask's worshipers to non-evil alignments.
quote:
PS 4e's change to Aasmir was amoung the worst of the spellplague, it made no sense and now puts the writers in a pickle were they have to resovle the contradictions in prespellplague aasmir and post spellplague Aasmir.
Given Aasmir is apparently now a Mulhorand word, I had an idea. Aasmir could be a stort form for mortal angel, or Celestial blooded, like a base word. So reincarnating Angels Devas could be Ra'das'Aasmir and the planetouched Aasmir could be Hth'aasmir, with Ra being a reference to the Sun God and rebirth and Hth'Na'Aasmir being a refence to Hathor would is accoicated with Ferility. So Ra'das'Aasmir could mean The Mortal Angel Servants of Ra and Hth'Na'Aasmir could mean Angel Blooded Child Of Hathor or something.
Wow, the solution is so simple to squaring this circle, I'm amazed I've missed it for so long. This type of logic could be applied to Tieflings and Genasi and other races with simular situtations.
I feel like I'm channeling Daniel Jackson.
I kinda like this. Even rakshasa could be Ra'ka'shasa and mean something like, "those turned away from Ra" or "those who lost Ra's virtue"... lots of possibilities there.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 18:04:48
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If anything I think mask will end up taking, NE, CE, CG, and CN
Its not as if mask wants the world to end, I think he just is about principal and allowing things to happen. Opportunity he took shars greatest moment of triumph and turned it against her, ergo he's an opportunist, which many adventureers are. |
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 15:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
For what it's worth, Mask's worshipers were previously allowed to be LE, NE or CE.
In the Faith & Avatars (pg 110), Mask's worshippers (not necessarily cleric or specialty priest clergy members) can be good, neutral and evil.
WOR. ALIGN.: NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE |
Yan
Playtester |
Edited by - Plaguescarred on 19 Dec 2013 15:30:24 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 16:04:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Plaguescarred
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
For what it's worth, Mask's worshipers were previously allowed to be LE, NE or CE.
In the Faith & Avatars (pg 110), Mask's worshippers (not necessarily cleric or specialty priest clergy members) can be good, neutral and evil.
WOR. ALIGN.: NG, CG, LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE
*sigh*
Obviously I should've been more specific than just saying "worshipers". Clerics must follow the "one step" rule for alignment: either they take the given alignment of their deity or they can be one step away.
Orsin doesn't strike me as just a commoner who happens to worship Mask. He's a cleric or specialty devotee of some sort.
My point was that it's odd for him not to be evil, given his deep connection to Mask and his array of powers. That said, he is a Deva of some kind, and the rules about how devas interact with (and identify with) their deities changed rather dramatically in 4E. Devas are now all sort of... released or independent, disconnected in a way, so they can be pretty much whatever they want to be (although, apparently, they become rakshasas if they're evil).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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SS
Acolyte
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 16:14:31
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So, I contacted Paul S. Kemp himself on Facebook and he gave me a reply to this question. Here's his answer:
"Devas/Celestials tend toward a good alignment, but don't have to be. The nomenclature has gotten a bit convoluted over the years/editions, so it can seem confusing (for instance, a deva used to be an actual angelic being from the upper planes, complete with wings, but later came to mean what "aasimar" meant in earlier editions). All it really means is that there's some celestial blood in Orsin, but that doesn't dictate ethos/alignment.
If I had to peg an alignment on Orsin, I'd lean toward Lawful Neutral." |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 16:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by SS
So, I contacted Paul S. Kemp himself on Facebook and he gave me a reply to this question. Here's his answer:
"Devas/Celestials tend toward a good alignment, but don't have to be. The nomenclature has gotten a bit convoluted over the years/editions, so it can seem confusing (for instance, a deva used to be an actual angelic being from the upper planes, complete with wings, but later came to mean what "aasimar" meant in earlier editions). All it really means is that there's some celestial blood in Orsin, but that doesn't dictate ethos/alignment.
If I had to peg an alignment on Orsin, I'd lean toward Lawful Neutral."
That's fine, but the primary issue here (because it's in the 4E era) isn't that he's a deva or aasimar with a non-evil alignment. It's that Orsin is apparently breaking the one-step rule for clerics.
Then again, WotC may have thrown out the one-step rule in 4E for clerics... since a lot of things did change in 4E for clerics and their relationship with deity and church.
I think one way of "fixing" this for 5E, which would work with Mask's more virtuous actions (and those of his Chosen) against Shar and Asmodeus and their faithful, would be to change Mask's alignment to Neutral. When viewed from a certain point of view, not all theft can be viewed as evil any more. Is stealing from a Sharran, a Cyricist, or Asmodean considered evil? When I take something dangerous away from a child or a commoner who is ignorant of the item's danger, is that evil?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 19 Dec 2013 16:38:15 |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 17:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
[quote]Originally posted by SS
It's that Orsin is apparently breaking the one-step rule for clerics.
Orsin is not a cleric (though, to be honest, even if he were a cleric, things like the one-step rule aren't things I worry about when writing a story). :-) |
Edited by - PaulSKemp on 19 Dec 2013 17:31:53 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 17:33:17
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
[quote]Originally posted by SS
It's that Orsin is apparently breaking the one-step rule for clerics.
Orsin is not a cleric (though, to be honest, even if he were a cleric, things like the one-step rule aren't things I worry about when writing a story). :-)
Unless I misread (which is possible), you had Orsin praying to Riven/Mask for his spells, though... what is he, if not a cleric?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 19 Dec 2013 17:34:29 |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 17:41:11
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| He prayed, true (because he's a worshipper of Mask) but not for spells. Orsin can't cast spells. He's a monk (with some other classes and/or the equivalent of a prestige class thrown in) who has some unique powers associated with darkness/shadow. |
Edited by - PaulSKemp on 19 Dec 2013 17:41:39 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 17:42:57
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
He prayed, true (because he's a worshipper of Mask) but not for spells. Orsin can't cast spells. He's a monk (with some other classes and/or the equivalent of a prestige class thrown in) who has some unique powers associated with darkness/shadow.
Ah... intriguing!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:45:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I think: what is "evil enough" and how do we define evil in this new age?
Well, he gifted Dark Speech to one of his champions and that's beyond mere evil, that's vile
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 18:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I think: what is "evil enough" and how do we define evil in this new age?
Well, he gifted Dark Speech to one of his champions and that's beyond mere evil, that's vile
IIRC, Riven used the Black Speech against his enemies, who were themselves evil.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 22 Dec 2013 18:46:49 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 19:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I think: what is "evil enough" and how do we define evil in this new age?
Well, he gifted Dark Speech to one of his champions and that's beyond mere evil, that's vile
IIRC, Riven used the Black Speech against his enemies, who were themselves evil.
My point is that Mask having such easy access to it doesn't show him in a good light |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 10:58:36
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Of all the " evil" gods Mask can be considered the least nefarious. In fact he has shown himself capable of mercy, honor and self sacrifice. Traits not normally associated with evil.
So even if you were a say a neutral aligned person or even a somewhat good one you could still worship Mask, as long as you were willing to acknowledge that the world is not black and white. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 01:39:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I think: what is "evil enough" and how do we define evil in this new age?
Well, he gifted Dark Speech to one of his champions and that's beyond mere evil, that's vile
IIRC, Riven used the Black Speech against his enemies, who were themselves evil.
Yes, but opposing evil doesn't necessarily make you good. The 4e situation in Neverwinter is a perfect example. Devils, aboleths, Thayans, and Shades are all vying for control of the city. All these groups are unarguably evil. They aren't opposing each other for the sake of anything good, but merely to serve their own evil ends.
Yes, Mask opposed Shar when she created the Shadowstorm to annihilate Toril. But any evil god would have opposed her. Many evil gods (like Bane or Loviatar) don't want Toril destroyed. They want to rule it. Even the evil gods who do want to destroy Toril want to do it themselves. |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 03:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise (snip) *sigh*
Obviously I should've been more specific than just saying "worshipers". Clerics must follow the "one step" rule for alignment: either they take the given alignment of their deity or they can be one step away. (snip)
The "one step" rule exists only in 3.xE.
In 2E the alignment rules were explained on page 21 of Faiths & Avatars to whit, clerics had their possible alignments spelled out in a deity's entry while specialty priests had to match the deity's alignment precisely unless the specialty priest description specifically allowed some variation.
In the case of Mask, clerics could be of any neutral or evil alignment (six of the nine alignments: see page 110) while specialty priests had to be NE.
As for devas, in 4E there is no alignment requirement for them but truly evil ones can reincarnate as rakshasa. While they fill the gap left by aasimar, they're not really aasimar either as they are eternal spirits that repeatedly reincarnate. The few encountered in my 4E games are a new race created from the immortal servitors of deities like Mystra, Tyr etc... who perished during the Spellplague. They're not called "devas", either, as I find that too culturally-specific. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
Edited by - Derulbaskul on 24 Dec 2013 03:11:53 |
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Why would Orsin be a mask worshipper?
