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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 21:22:40
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So what do people want to see the Zhentarim doing in 5E? I'm kind of wondering if it wouldn't be a nice change to have them based in Mulmaster. Perhaps have Fzoul return as a banelich to head the Church of Bane? Do you think they would still be pursuing mercantile domination or a different means to fund their operations?
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 21:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
So what do people want to see the Zhentarim doing in 5E? I'm kind of wondering if it wouldn't be a nice change to have them based in Mulmaster. Perhaps have Fzoul return as a banelich to head the Church of Bane? Do you think they would still be pursuing mercantile domination or a different means to fund their operations?
I would actually like to see Fzoul return as a mortal, surviving because of his EXARCH status. Maybe a rebuilt Zhentil Keep with Manshoon in charge? Mulmaster makes sense, but I liked the power struggle on the moonsea, and I think the Zhents controlling Mulmaster would upset that since Zhentil Keep would be nothing without the Zhentarim.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 21:51:22
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| That is true, they'd effectively control the Lis and all trade going through if they were based in Mulmaster. Well, they'd try at any rate. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 02 Jul 2013 21:51:45 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 21:57:21
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Also Zhentil Keep to me has a lot of flavor of the old gray box realms. I would like to see some of that returned. That is what I mean by that Moonsea power struggle. Maybe make Hillsfar a Zhentarim outpost as well.
The Zhents are lucky to have survived as long as they did with Zhentil Keep ruined. I think it would be cool to have the Razed Zhentil Keep built stronger than ever, as a symbol to the world how powerful the Zhents really are. I would like to see the Zhents make the SHades quake a little.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 22:03:20
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| I believe 5E is going to see the Shadovar taken down a notch or two. I'm rather surprised Shade destroyed Zhentil Keep. You'd think funneling Zhent caravans through the Anauroch would have been good gold and plenty of info about the modern world. If Shade gets the beat down, I wonder if the Zhents will get to use their caravan route...which should be much of an easier ride with half the desert gone or at least more habitable. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 22:14:47
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I think Fzoul is a strategist very much on par with the emperor of shade. I think it would be cool to have Fzoul ally once again with Zhentil Keep, maybe even Manshoon (Manshoon could realize he needs him for now) and become that Lawful evil power which keeps shade in check.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 22:23:13
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| Well, Telamont was 2,000+ years old and level 35 from the Lords of Darkness book. Fzoul has a long way to go to match that. The latest Elminster books seem to imply Manshoon is more powerful than ever, but I still think he'd get smoked in a straight up fight with the Most High. I'm guessing Shar will turn her back on Shade and that should drain them enough to put them all more or less on an even playing field. Well, ideally anyways. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 22:54:02
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| I'd like to see the Zhents back as they were in 3E. I did not like what 4E did to them. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 23:16:28
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I believe if they are rebuilt (and I think they should be), they will be treated as more of a threat than they have been in the past. I suspect one of the reasons the Shades were given center stage was to sweep away what appeared to be an inept evil organization (due to TSR's policies when it came to bad guys) and replace it with one that knew how to get things done. So, given the general trend of better written villains I believe the Zhents sitting out a century will be the excuse needed to rebrand them as a real threat and treat them as such in the fiction.
So, I would expect Manshoon to either be the leader or at least in the upper command. Fzoul either returning as a mortal or as Bane's Chosen would be nice. I believe we can count Hesperdan out. I would expect them to purge Cyric's followers or at least greatly reduce their role within the organization. Maybe they would take in followers of another god who allied with Bane over the last century to add a little new flavor? I would have them based outside Zhentil Keep initially, but with them obviously rebuilding it to be there base of power once again. Mainly because I think it would take a while to rebuild (and I think it's filled with monsters right now if I am remembering right).
As for plans and plots, I would think a logical plan for them would be to attempt to absorb some of the remaining Thay Marts into their organization and possibly some of the Red Wizards. It fits into their mercantile goals and provides them with some more mages in their ranks. It also gives Manshoon an opening to spreading his influence via tinkering with the magic items the Thay marts sell. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 00:39:15
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Well, there are actually two parts to this question. What do I want to happen with the Church of Bane in the Moonsea, and what do I want to happen with the Zhentarim?
First, I'd like to see Fzoul die, and have someone else replace him as the head of Bane's church in the Moonsea. Have the church based out of the Temple of the Black Altar in Mulmaster. Hopefully the person who replaces him is more competent, and will have even greater success.
Second, I'd like to see the Church of Bane taken out of a leadership role with the Zhentarim. They had too much influence over them. I prefer the Church of Bane to be independent, but that doesn't mean they couldn't work closely with them. I want the church to actually focus more on the religious aspects of Bane, as in worshiping and serving him by spreading his faith, and less on leading other organizations.
Third, I don't want Manshoon running the Zhentarim either. I'm rather sick of him and all of his clones. I'd prefer it if Manshoon had very little to do with them at all.
Fourth, I'd rather the organization be led by a number of different individuals, perhaps as some type of council. I'd like to envision the Zhentarim as an organization that gets by on a mixture of legitimate front businesses and illegal criminal activity - extortion, black mail, murder, protection rackets, human and drug trafficking, etc. They are, at the end of the day, a criminal syndicate that is willing to do whatever is necessary to expand its wealth and power. For inspirational material, I'd look to the Italian Mafia, the Russian Mafia, the Yakuza, and South American Drug Cartels. Then I would add to the fact that they are wealthy enough to have what effectively amounts to a private military made of mercenaries... some of which are even monstrous in nature. They would be based out of a rebuilt Zhentil Keep (which will hopefully not be destroyed again).
...so yeah, that's what I'd like to see. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 03 Jul 2013 00:43:21 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 01:06:31
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| In some of the old 2E monster manuals, there were art inserts. One of them is a pack of I think, liches. It made me think, what if the few remaining baneliches came together to head the Church of Bane? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 01:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
In some of the old 2E monster manuals, there were art inserts. One of them is a pack of I think, liches. It made me think, what if the few remaining baneliches came together to head the Church of Bane?
You're referring to the Gods of Lankhmar, by Keith Parkinson, correct? A very iconic image... I used to have all of the art inserts from the Monstrous Compendiums collected in one notebook. That binder was, of course, a victim of the fire. Thank Lurue, the Compendiums themselves were elsewhere. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 01:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
In some of the old 2E monster manuals, there were art inserts. One of them is a pack of I think, liches. It made me think, what if the few remaining baneliches came together to head the Church of Bane?
You're referring to the Gods of Lankhmar, by Keith Parkinson, correct? A very iconic image... I used to have all of the art inserts from the Monstrous Compendiums collected in one notebook. That binder was, of course, a victim of the fire. Thank Lurue, the Compendiums themselves were elsewhere.
Yep that's the one. One of my favorites. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 03:31:42
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Ultimately, I'm looking for what I felt when I read the 2e FRCS. Every so often, you'd find a tidbit about the Zhentarim having secret agents or infiltrators in this or that region or town. They were THE 2e-era bad guys bent on controlling everyone and everything between Zhentil Keep and the Sword Coast.
Really, I'd like to see a return to just that once more. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 03:57:36
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Personally, I like the Zhentarim as a fantasy version of Wal-Mart. Unscrupulous, power-hungry, harms local business, willing to go to any length to gain market share, abusive to suppliers, customers, and employees alike--check.
Legion of Doom-lite? I'll pass.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 06:41:17
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I'd like to see some NEW faces of Zhentarim for once. No more Manshoon or Fzoul running things because it would feel like nothing has changed in over a century. Keeping them around in a nebulas-like style wouldn't be bad, so long as they're not the leading heads and making all the decisions and plots. I'd like to see their role go from direct leader (as it was in pre-4E) to something of a saged advisor that the new faces draw their inspiration and goals from.
As for the organization itself, I'd like to see them more strongly established, but FAR away from Zhentil Keep. Preferrably Darkhold. I, like Sage, would love to see them take a more aggressive approach to gaining control in the Western Heartlands, Cormyr, Sword Coast, and Amn regions. I'd also like to see some of their machinations work, thus strengthening their hold in certain places. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 11:58:26
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| I agree with Diffan, the Zhents had become complacent and boring. The loss of Zhetil Keep proves this, the old leaders should be weeded out in order to make way for the new. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 12:23:00
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I support the don't remake Zhentil Keep again club. How many times has that place been blown up? One would think that a semi-secret organization would find a new stomping ground that was slightly more secretive. I actually like the idea of the Zhents taking over Mulmaster. It is the same general region and gives them access to major trade routes.
I also am 100% behind the Fzoul no longer being an exarch bandwagon(Although I would like to see the exarch concept entirely thrown out). However, I could see new leadership for the Zhents. Manshoon didn't appear to have any plans to take over the Zhentarim in the lastest Elminster series and it would be nice to see the current FR team try their hand at making new characters. Fzoul could become high priest of Bane and focus more on that cause rather than returning to the Zhents. Although, I hope the Zhents are supported by the returned Dark Three. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 13:32:23
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I haven't read any responses other then the last one, but I am in agreement with that sentiment. I happen to like what Zhentil Keep became in 4e (as seen in Rich Baker's novels). It should stand as a testament to the stupidity of a 'culvert organization' having a high-profile, well-known headquarters.*
As for the Zhents themselves, I'd liked to see some sort of blend between what they were and what they became. I imagine them having bee 'busted up' into hundreds of smaller groups during 4e. They always operated as 'cells', but without any form of central governing they would have all had their own agendas. I think in 5e I'd like to see someone (perhaps NOT Manshoon) pull them all back together (literally 'kicking & screaming' in some cases), but keep the looser structure they have now.
In other words, I'd like to see them do to the Zhents sort-of what they did with the Shou toward the end of 3e and on into 4e, and what the Thayans did in 3e - have enclaves (lets called them 'Guild Halls') in every major settlement. Ostensibly they would be a very far-reaching mercenary guild, but underneath it all, they would still be The Zhentarim, plotting and planning all sorts of nastiness from some secret base (no skull-shaped islands please... thats a bit over-done).
In other words, strip them of their silly 'Keystone Cops' persona (real or imagined) and make them worthy of the name Zhent once again (as I am sure Ed had them). In fact, most of the 'grunts' in the organization shouldn't even known that they have become 'the old Zhentarrim' once-again - that should be for the top officers and the hidden movers-and-shakers.
I really like the 'enclaves'/Shou-town presentation now... at first it rubbed me the wrong way, but I see its excellent value in an RPG setting. Everything should be available just about everywhere, and if there ever was a mistake that the (published) Realms made was that the earlier editions made it seem like all the bad guys were very regional, and that FR was so vast you couldn't use most of 'the toys'. By sprinkling this stuff all over the place, you give the DM a wider variety of tools to use wherever the action is set. Each settlement then becomes a 'hotbed of intrigue', and isn't that The Realms, at its very core?
In that way, even the 'points of Light' become PoL - the 'safe havens' become adventure sites themselves. It doesn't get much better then that.
*EDIT: Buuuuuut... there should also still be a secret 'underground' within the ruined keep, with Zhents still running things 'behind the curtain', perhaps disguised as a criminal (pirate?) organization. The ruined city may even work well as the new headquarters - its called 'hiding in plain sight'. 
Edited to fix several grammatical errors |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jul 2013 13:29:35 |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 13:52:39
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| I love Markustay's ideas for spreading the Zhentarim and their influence throughout Faerun, and likewise Aldrick's idea of a ruling council for the organization. I'd also like the Chruch of Bane and the Zhentarim to be separated, or at least for the latter to no longer be a mere subordinate appendage of the former under Fzoul's leadership. I'm not sure if I'd want Manshoon to be on that hypothetical ruling council, but one thing I'd love is for, at most, only half of that council's members to be named and described, with the rest deliberately being left to DMs. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 18:33:26
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The Zhentarim in 5e?
Feel free to call me biased but i do want them to return as the greatest threat for Faerun like they were before 4e came around.
A reorganisation of the Black Network to return them completely back to what they were best in as a expansionistic greed/power driven force as either behind the curtain or outright conquest.
A return to the Church of Bane as one of it“s enforcing instruments and purging of all the cyricist influences. You may argue with me but they were the most powerful as Fzoul had them entrenched with the Church of Bane and this combination is what makes the Zhentarim the danger they need to be.
A reconstruction of Zhentil Keep in greater glory as one of the Black Networks main bases, as a message to Toril that how hard they may try to stop them, they won“t prevail.
New interesting members of the organisation that bring back a feeling of a vibrant hub of vile and cruel agendas set out to further the influence coming along with territorial expansion across Faerun.
A blow dealt to the Shade that serves as retaliation and worthy reclaiming as most important evil organisation in the realms(would love to see them wipe some of the Shade cities out of the sky).
Fzoul is still chosen of Bane and heads the church with Manshoon making a complete switch to Bane(not likely though as he is atheist)and runs the organisation with Fzoul again.
So yes, i“d love to see them return as the big baddies as i do personally feel that the Shade were only put into that role to attract some new people for 4e and they were not up to the task and only benefitted by better writing.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 22:06:59
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| When were the Zhents ever the greatest threat to Faerūn? In times past, they've been more prominent than other threats, yes, but they were far from being the greatest -- they were simply one among many. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 22:22:41
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| I just want to see some NEW developments in the organization. This means building a new place of power. The ruins of Zhentil Keep would make a GREAT adventuring cite for PCs to go and explore and it should be built up as such. Have the Zhents create a new base of power to start from. Further, I want to see NEW faces and NEW threats become the organization's leaders. People who are truly ruthless and cunning and have exceptionally preverse movtives and sinister ways of going about it. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 23:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When were the Zhents ever the greatest threat to Faerūn? In times past, they've been more prominent than other threats, yes, but they were far from being the greatest -- they were simply one among many.
They were one of many but among those many they had by far the biggest impact on Faerun when it came to political weight and influence combined with the means to shake things up. The only other organisation who came close were the Red Wizards of Thay but they were less "the world is ours" and more "profit and power". |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 23:13:28
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After reading the thoughts of others, I'm going to have to agree and say leave Zhentil Keep in ruins. Give them control over the Citadel of the Raven and Darkhold as open bases of operations.
Let them have smaller "infiltration" groups and mercenary company recruiters stationed in the various Moonsea cities, perhaps with an open office in Mulmaster.
As for who leads the group, I once again state that I would NOT like to see Fzoul or Manshoon take up the mantle, and would prefer some type of council. (This could allow for power plays WITHIN the Zhents themselves among the various members of the council.) Have the council operate similarly to the Hidden Lord's of Waterdeep. There would be some open members of the Council, who deal with the various matters of the Zhents publicly. However, the majority would be completely hidden and unnamed. I really like that suggestion by Krafus.
Members of the council would be located all over Faerun. They'd all have a magic item that would allow them to be contacted by other members of the Council at any time for the purposes of long range communication. The item would also allow them to project an illusionary image of themselves in the Council Chamber (an image which they could also speak and see through as if they were there personally), allowing them to conduct council meetings remotely. If they are in physical danger the item should allow them to teleport to the Council Chamber.
I'd never give the exact location of where the Council meets, and it's likely that most of the members of the Council wouldn't know either... though I'd hint that it was carved out inside a mountain located somewhere in the Greypeaks... which pretty much puts it out in the middle of nowhere. The only way to gain entrance would be through magic as there would be no physical entrance or exit.
I'd have an estimated twenty-five members of the council, with the option of adding more over time. Only three would be "open" and a total of eight would be detailed and known to DM's. One of the ones known would be the appointed chair of the council, basically an executive position - the person who handles the day-to-day issues facing the organization. Other individual members of the Council could be appointed with special tasks, titles, and positions of greater importance.
To become a member of the council you'd require sponsorship by at least two existing members of the council, and a majority vote by the rest.
Each member of the council would be an individual of power, wealth, and influence (and no doubt prominence as well) in a specific location or region in the Realms. They'd largely be focused on their local and regional concerns.
If they are exposed publicly, and they're hidden the consequences for that is death. The other members of the council will have them killed, so that they cannot be captured and information obtained from them. If a member of the council reveals secret information, especially one of the identities of one of the hidden members of the council, then they would be killed as well, and considered to be traitors. The open members of the council must have aspects of their memories magically wiped clean or modified so that they cannot identify other members. During meetings, they adopt false names and fake projected images of themselves to help conceal their identities. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 23:25:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
A return to the Church of Bane as one of it“s enforcing instruments and purging of all the cyricist influences. You may argue with me but they were the most powerful as Fzoul had them entrenched with the Church of Bane and this combination is what makes the Zhentarim the danger they need to be.
Actually, it's when Fzoul became leader of the Church of Bane and the sole leader of the Zhentarim that I began to lose interest in the latter. In 3e, the Zhentarim became IMO little more than a subordinate branch of the Church of Bane - and how could it be otherwise, when the Church's leader was also the sole leader of the Zhentarim?
To truly be a fearsome threat, the Zhentarim need IMO to be their own masters, and not have to answer to a religious leader who will inevitably put his religion's interests above those of the Zhentarim. This is why I support Aldrick's idea of a ruling council for the Zhentarim - so that no single individual can twist the organization to his or her purposes.
quote:
A blow dealt to the Shade that serves as retaliation and worthy reclaiming as most important evil organisation in the realms(would love to see them wipe some of the Shade cities out of the sky).
This I can wholeheartedly support. The shades were interesting new villains when they first made their appearance, but by now they're starting to feel as omnipresent and even stale as the drow did a few years ago.
quote:
Fzoul is still chosen of Bane and heads the church with Manshoon making a complete switch to Bane(not likely though as he is atheist)and runs the organisation with Fzoul again.
Manshoon converting to Bane and serving as co-leader of the Zhentarim would IMO make the organization too Bane-inclined and too likely to once again become a subordinate branch of the Church of Bane. |
Edited by - Krafus on 03 Jul 2013 23:29:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2013 : 23:53:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When were the Zhents ever the greatest threat to Faerūn? In times past, they've been more prominent than other threats, yes, but they were far from being the greatest -- they were simply one among many.
They were one of many but among those many they had by far the biggest impact on Faerun when it came to political weight and influence combined with the means to shake things up. The only other organisation who came close were the Red Wizards of Thay but they were less "the world is ours" and more "profit and power".
They may have had a bigger impact than most other groups, but I'd not say their impact -- outside of the Moonsea area and the Dales -- was dramatically more than anyone else's. 10 copper is more than 7 copper, but it's still far less than a gold piece.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Zhents -- I just don't think they are that huge a threat to all the Realms. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Jul 2013 23:55:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 00:00:21
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I, personally, would like to see Zhentil Keep rebuilt. It would fit in with prior lore, since they've rebuilt it once before, in a short amount of time. And I vehemently dislike the way it was casually wiped off the map by the Shades, too, and would dearly like to see that undone.
As for the leadership, I'm undecided on that. I do like Manshoon, and should like to see him around, but I don't know that I'd put him back on top. And I can take or leave Fzoul.
What might be fun is if "Lord Orgauth" had sired a half-fiend son before he was slain, and that son -- or a descendant -- was now ruling the Keep. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 01:28:12
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| Heh, the Shadovar most certainly have something coming up that's gonna cause some problems for them. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 04 Jul 2013 01:28:43 |
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carbos
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 21:57:07
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| I would like them to stay dead. Out of all 3e->4e mess, destruction of Zhentil Keep is one of very few things I fully approve. |
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lordsknight185
Learned Scribe
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 02:01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, would like to see Zhentil Keep rebuilt. It would fit in with prior lore, since they've rebuilt it once before, in a short amount of time. And I vehemently dislike the way it was casually wiped off the map by the Shades, too, and would dearly like to see that undone.
As for the leadership, I'm undecided on that. I do like Manshoon, and should like to see him around, but I don't know that I'd put him back on top. And I can take or leave Fzoul.
What might be fun is if "Lord Orgauth" had sired a half-fiend son before he was slain, and that son -- or a descendant -- was now ruling the Keep.
I agree, Zhentil Keep is a staple of the realms to me. and vampire Manshoon should remain in a high position, even if he falls back to a more sub-leader as he was in 3e but I still want to see him there.
The biggest question I have is about Fzoul. He is technically a demi-god now. can demi-gods be demoted back to mortalship? (Being mortal chosen of Bane would still be a step down from demi-godhood) |
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Zhentarim in 5E
