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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 22:42:21
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Well I can tell you that I was absolutely devastated when the 4th edition Forgotten Realms came out. I thought it was awful the way they wrecked the place. I also noticed how many people fled the WoTc forums to the point of it being a ghost town.
Now I'm reading up on this "Sundering" and wondering if it's basically an admission of defeat from WoTc because of the poor way they handled the Realms in 4th edition.
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 22:50:22
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| I'd say its more like they are re-aligning the Realms to its original core vision. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 22:58:11
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| God I hope so. I want the old Realms back but as a new product. I want to go back to the heavy information Realms as well, none of this "come up with the rest yourself" garbage that did last edition. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 23:07:11
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| I'm rather excited to see if they have Ed lined up to go bonkers detailing the Realms again with Volo's guides and other stuff. I think it would be really fun to see what a new Shadowdale or Mulmaster look like in 5E...and about a hundred other places. If the latest products are any indication, they will be lore heavy and rules light, which I definitely appreciate. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 23:18:27
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| Are they basically doing a rewind or are they going to drop another nuke in the same place they dropped the last one and hope the end result turns out better? |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 23:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I'm rather excited to see if they have Ed lined up to go bonkers detailing the Realms again with Volo's guides and other stuff. I think it would be really fun to see what a new Shadowdale or Mulmaster look like in 5E...and about a hundred other places. If the latest products are any indication, they will be lore heavy and rules light, which I definitely appreciate.
I wonder if Myth Drannor will go back to being a demon/devil infested ruin. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 23:31:34
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No reboot, everything that has happened is still part of canon. I'd fully expect Myth Drannor to still be standing. My sincere hope is they would flesh out Tethyamar as its replacement mega dungeon, but that's just wishful thinking on my part.
My understanding, and I'm really just guessing here, is that Ao is going to finally show up and put a boot in the arses of the gods once things go off the deep end or some such. Somehow this will all tie into the Time of Troubles and maybe the last century or so has been a test by Ao and the gods have failed just miserably. I figured all the wars being waged have the deities involved in them somehow. Toril and Abeir are going to seperate and be like they once were.
No idea how some things on the map will get fixed. Though if we go with the unreliable narrator, I imagine the map was a poorly done version by some Toril resident that greatly exaggerated things like the Underchasm and Plaguelands size etc. Maybe some of the "holes" will be plugged with Abeir finally pulling away, who knows.
Should be interesting to see how it turns out. This is all me just guessing. There's other scribes on here that are far better at positing theories. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 23:36:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
No reboot, everything that has happened is still part of canon. I'd fully expect Myth Drannor to still be standing. My sincere hope is they would flesh out Tethyamar as its replacement mega dungeon, but that's just wishful thinking on my part.
My understanding, and I'm really just guessing here, is that Ao is going to finally show up and put a boot in the arses of the gods once things go off the deep end or some such. Somehow this will all tie into the Time of Troubles and maybe the last century or so has been a test by Ao and the gods have failed just miserably. I figured all the wars being waged have the deities involved in them somehow. Toril and Abeir are going to seperate and be like they once were.
No idea how some things on the map will get fixed. Though if we go with the unreliable narrator, I imagine the map was a poorly done version by some Toril resident that greatly exaggerated things like the Underchasm and Plaguelands size etc. Maybe some of the "holes" will be plugged with Abeir finally pulling away, who knows.
Should be interesting to see how it turns out. This is all me just guessing. There's other scribes on here that are far better at positing theories.
In all fairness, I am very nervous about what is going to happen. I want the old Realms back and I hope they get the balance right. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 01:12:56
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I have been cautiously optimistic since the unveiling of the Sundering. Optimistic because 'they' have said Ed is at the helm of the campaign design. Cautious because I'm unsure how they can really repair so much of what was done (we lost several cultures/nations, along with radical terrain changes that I hated). On top of that, some of what is occurring seems unnecessary IMO (I would like some of the earthmotes to remain afloat and for spellscars to remain as an official DM/player option in play, for instance).
The Realms will never be the same again methinks...and that's not a good thing, IMHO. But perhaps enough will be salvaged to make the world worthwhile. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 04:10:08
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I will, once more, take the opportunity to add that Ed told me he was excited about what was coming. This was unprompted, and in an email exchange just between he and I -- so there is no need to think he was toeing the company line.
And if the creator of the setting is excited about what's coming, then I am, too. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 04:33:36
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| My response wasn't geared toward Ed 'toeing the company line' (this time anyway). Just an expressed opinion about Wizbro's ability get back to what the Realms was meant to be on a fundamental level. It was not meant to be an attack on Ed or the company. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 06:12:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
My response wasn't geared toward Ed 'toeing the company line' (this time anyway). Just an expressed opinion about Wizbro's ability get back to what the Realms was meant to be on a fundamental level. It was not meant to be an attack on Ed or the company.
Oh, I wasn't aiming my comment at any one person. I just think it bears repeating, in any discussion about forthcoming developments, that Ed has shown enthusiasm for what's coming. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 14:00:58
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I think they've admitted they made some mistakes, all over the place, in blogs, podcasts, and in person at cons. They've never come out (AFAIK) and made a general 'apology' for 4e to the fanbase - I think this is one of those times when everyone knows the apology is there, but they just can't come out and say it.
You ever pass a service-industry place that was once great but has been going downhill, and then one day you see a sign that says "so-and-so is back!" in the window? Or better still, "under old management"? Its like that - setting things back to how they were is reaching out to the fanbase. Its still not too late for that - FR means so much to so many people still.
If they produce something amazing, people will forget their anger and come home. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 15:45:16
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| Maybe in January we'll start seeing details of the 5E Realms, new year and all that. I keep hoping someone pops in and says hey the 5E campaign guide goes on sale in July 2014! hehehe |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 16:45:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Maybe in January we'll start seeing details of the 5E Realms, new year and all that. I keep hoping someone pops in and says hey the 5E campaign guide goes on sale in July 2014! hehehe
I think it's more likely to have a 2015 release date, which will be announced at GenCon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 17:03:19
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I'm thinking X-mas 2014, just in time for the holidays (always a great time to release new games/toys), but we shall see.
The rules seem to be pretty-much in their final iteration, and I can't see it taking over a year to produce the PG and DMG (although I would prefer just one large book, Paizo-style; seriously, since when don't players buy the DMG? that system never worked right from the beginning!)
So if the rules are ready - which they seem to be - it would be insane of them not to time the release of the setting with that - ESPECIALLY if FR is going to be more closely linked to the rules then ever before (think 'core', instead of 'flagship'). I think they need to just concentrate on one world, at least for the first few years - so much room on Toril to place all that other stuff they wind-up putting in those secondary settings.
Anyhow, all IMHO - they seem to be on the right track, and since they've made all the mistakes before, hopefully they will be a little more marketing-savvy this time out. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Dec 2013 22:45:32 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 17:32:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think they've admitted they made some mistakes, all over the place, in blogs, podcasts, and in person at cons. They've never come out (AFAIK) and made a general 'apology' for 4e to the fanbase...
...If they produce something amazing, people will forget their anger and come home.
It's pretty rare for people to put away or "forget" their anger. The passage of time helps cool anger, but it's almost always easily rekindled.
This thread and the other recent one are bringing up some ugly memories that I'd rather let go. But memories are long and anger is very easily rekindled in the absence of a genuine apology. It might actually serve WotC well to formally offer an apology. But I agree that they won't, partly because most of the "idea men" behind 4E are gone or have moved on.
Thing is, I remember the weird sort of glee and venom that accompanied the PR reveals of early 4E Realms. They actually took pleasure in gutting the Realms, lopping the heads off of various powerful characters, etc. And it was pretty sickening to watch. Being a fan and long-time customer, it was like watching an enemy destroy your favorite castle from the inside while all your guards were on the other side of the moat.
Having supported them for decades with my money and dedication, it felt like a deep betrayal. Sure, I wasn't 100% happy with the ToT or some of the things in 3E, but gleefully dismantling and nuking the Realms was absolutely the wrong way to treat customers.
Many of the 4E Realms "idea men" subsequently lost their jobs, though some didn't. At this point, repairing the Realms is essential for their future business plan. But I still think that a formal and outspoken apology would defuse the betrayal that many people felt (and still do, though it may have cooled).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Dec 2013 17:37:03 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 17:32:44
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| FR can certainly be the core. I wouldn't mind seeing new campaign areas designed with some of the continents we've never seen, provided Ed or other designers who have the chops to make it kick butt. After playing Dragon Age Origins, I've been trying to think of a way to introduce the Tevinter Imperium in the Realms myself. I was thinking originally as a ruined city, but I might just have to create a portal leading to another continent. Worse case, I might just drop that into the hole where Mulhorand and Unther used to be. ;) |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1159 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 17:44:10
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| Tevinter is too much like pre-spellplague Thay to warrant a new realm IMO. It'd feel redundant in a world before Szass Tam made his play. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 17:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Are they basically doing a rewind or are they going to drop another nuke in the same place they dropped the last one and hope the end result turns out better?
It's not a rewind, they don't want to invalidate the work that's been done by a rewind. It's another nuke and they're using the turmoil as an excuse to bring people back from the dead.
I think they would have been better off of approaching it as Dragonlance as been approached in the past, treating the Realms as 2 ages. Pre and Post Spellplague and releasing the products accordingly. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 18:17:01
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
...It's not a rewind, they don't want to invalidate the work that's been done by a rewind. It's another nuke and they're using the turmoil as an excuse to bring people back from the dead.
Well, to be completely honest we won't know exactly what it is until the whole thing fully plays out. There may be some rewind elements, there may be other weird and unexpected things that happen, we don't really know. Quite literally, anything could still happen at this point.
If I were deeply cynical, which I'm not (thankfully I'm only moderately cynical), it's even possible that this Sundering was planned from the moment that 4E Realms was originally on the design table... and all of this "fixing" talk now is just part of the extended plan. And they might even have a "plan C" worked up to reset to OGB if this "fix" (which was "pre-plan B" in case plan A failed) doesn't work as well as hoped.
But thankfully I'm just moderately cynical. 
We won't truly know what the Sundering is, not fully, until Book 6, or possibly even afterwards.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Dec 2013 18:17:37 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 19:02:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Well, to be completely honest we won't know exactly what it is until the whole thing fully plays out. There may be some rewind elements
To me, a rewind is going back and retconning something that happened to never happen. They said they're not doing that. The Realms is moving forward and will still be 100+ years after the return of Shade. Things can become "undone" or be "fixed" but it's still a post-spellplague-sundering world. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 19:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Well, to be completely honest we won't know exactly what it is until the whole thing fully plays out. There may be some rewind elements
To me, a rewind is going back and retconning something that happened to never happen. They said they're not doing that. The Realms is moving forward and will still be 100+ years after the return of Shade. Things can become "undone" or be "fixed" but it's still a post-spellplague-sundering world.
They said they weren't going to do a full reboot to OGB or 3E, invalidating 4E entirely. That's very different than saying they would not retcon individual details or unwind certain elements of what people believed happened. That means small retcons (or even larger retcons) are fully possible.
As one example, we know that Vhaeraun and other gods are coming back. Vhaeraun was killed, so bringing him back is as much of a retcon as Mystra's so-called murder (which still is unexplained). Now, you might be choosing to define retcon very narrowly, but such things are actually definitional of retcons.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 21:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
As one example, we know that Vhaeraun and other gods are coming back. Vhaeraun was killed, so bringing him back is as much of a retcon as Mystra's so-called murder (which still is unexplained). Now, you might be choosing to define retcon very narrowly, but such things are actually definitional of retcons.
No, a dead deity coming back doesn't constitute a retcon.
To be a retcon the events of the deities demise would have to be treated as having never happened.
Vhaerun charging into his sister's realm only to be slain in single combat? No, nothing like this ever happened. <- That would be a retcon.
Yes, Vhaerun was defeated and slain by his sister that fateful day, but he was reconstituted from shreds of his power left in artifacts and holy places here and there. <. That would not be a recon.
Vhaerun charging into his sister's realm only to be slain in single combat? Yes, something that looked like this happened, but it was actually a clever ruse and it wasn't really Vhaerun. <- That's skirting the line but still just shy of an retcon, since it keeps all past events unfolding as witnessed, the witnesses were only not seing the full truth.
At the end of the day a character breaking his leg and then healing it after 8 weeks in hospital to emerge with an unbroken leg isn't a retcon, even if he now has again two unbroken legs |
Edited by - Mirtek on 09 Dec 2013 21:33:35 |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 21:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
As one example, we know that Vhaeraun and other gods are coming back.
We do? I haven't seen this (not doubting, just out of the loop), is there a link to an announcement or someone official mentioning it or something? Having the various drow gods back is pretty high on my list of wants (Halruaa active and not destroyed, Myth Drannor the dangerous dungeon not too quickly healed city, a better map, and fixing the planar mess are pretty high up there too) for a 5e buy in so very interested in any news on the Vhaeraun (and even more so Eilistraee) front. |
Edited by - idilippy on 09 Dec 2013 21:34:31 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 22:09:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
As one example, we know that Vhaeraun and other gods are coming back. Vhaeraun was killed, so bringing him back is as much of a retcon as Mystra's so-called murder (which still is unexplained). Now, you might be choosing to define retcon very narrowly, but such things are actually definitional of retcons.
No, a dead deity coming back doesn't constitute a retcon.
To be a retcon the events of the deities demise would have to be treated as having never happened.
Sorry, but no. Your operating definition of retcon is too narrow.
A retcon is defined as any alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work. You may not like that definition, but that's how a retcon is defined.
There are different types of retcons (e.g. additive, alteration, or subtraction). But if you're altering anything "known" or taken to be true in order to make a change, it's a retcon.
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
As one example, we know that Vhaeraun and other gods are coming back.
We do? I haven't seen this (not doubting, just out of the loop), is there a link to an announcement or someone official mentioning it or something? Having the various drow gods back is pretty high on my list of wants (Halruaa active and not destroyed, Myth Drannor the dangerous dungeon not too quickly healed city, a better map, and fixing the planar mess are pretty high up there too) for a 5e buy in so very interested in any news on the Vhaeraun (and even more so Eilistraee) front.
"The gods are all coming back" is something they've said at GenCon this year, and a couple other places. Most recently, Erin Evins confirmed it in one of her author-related threads on this site. In her latest book, she has a healthy, fully powered Chosen of Vhaeraun which wouldn't be possible if Vhaeraun were still dead. So Vhaeraun is back as a divinity, but we don't know the method, when, or if other drow deities like Eilistraee are back yet. Her book is circa 1485-ish, I think.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Dec 2013 22:21:28 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 22:43:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Sorry, but no. Your operating definition of retcon is too narrow.
No, sorry, but you're the one using a too braod definition.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
A retcon is defined as any alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work.
No, a retcon is defined as a retroactively alteration of previously etablished facts in the continuity. That's what the ret' stands for.
Otherwise it's just development.
Vhaerun being reborn is no more a retcon than Vhaerun dying. Saying he never died is likely a retcon except they find a way of doing it that doesn't alter what happened previously. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 09 Dec 2013 22:46:00 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 22:50:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Sorry, but no. Your operating definition of retcon is too narrow.
No, sorry, but you're the one using a too braod definition.
And yet, dictionaries would agree with me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/retcon
When new information is added that changes the original and accepted interpretation of something "known" - then it's a retcon.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 23:09:36
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| I really should prefer that we not have another discussion on what defines a retcon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 23:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Sorry, but no. Your operating definition of retcon is too narrow.
No, sorry, but you're the one using a too braod definition.
And yet, dictionaries would agree with me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/retcon
When new information is added that changes the original and accepted interpretation of something "known" - then it's a retcon.
Edited to:
I had something here, but then I saw Wooly's post and I agree that it won't help anything and will likely just lead to a side argument. Forget I said anything here. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 09 Dec 2013 23:11:54 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 23:22:31
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| Short answer- yes. |
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Is "the Sundering" an admission to screwing up?
