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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 15:57:54
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I don't know about you guys, but I am really looking forward to the new D&D Next FR maps.
IMO, campaign setting maps really help to inspire your imagination. That said, I can't say that the FR maps to date have been perfect. There is definitely some areas for improvement.
Thus far, the maps that have been published to date make the entire realms feel like a collection of city states nestled in vast areas of wilderness, perhaps that's intentional, but when I read more I see that the realms is really not designed that way. There are references to various dukes and barons, but their fiefdoms have not been identified. With that in mind, I really have to wonder why the forgotten Realms maps have refrained from properly labeling the borders of kingdoms, baronies, duchies.
With that said, there is one area of the FR that has identified the various baronies and duchies and it's the Bloodstone Lands (Damara). For that reason alone, I usually run campaigns in Damara. In that campaign setting, I know when he PCs cross from one barony to the next. I know what each patrol looks like, I know the great house that rules the fiefdom, and I have a firm understanding of the political situation.
Other areas of the FR are not so clear. The Dalelands are not bad, but it's still rather hard to tell were one dale starts and another begins. It's also hard to tell how much land Zhentil Keep controls and who has a claim on it. Sembia seems like the perfect little kingdom, but it lacks any identifiable fiefdoms. The Sword Coast suffers from the same problem, and yet it has city states like Daggerford, which is apparently ruled by the dukes of Daggerford. I really have to wonder what titles they hold. There is one Duke of Callador, but I don't see the dutchy of Callador on any maps. anyway, I could go on...
I guess I'm just wondering what you guys would like to see in the new FR maps. My vote is for identifiable borders.
Here is one historical map of france in 1477 that is a good example of the kind of thing I'm looking for.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Map_France_1477-en.svg/2000px-Map_France_1477-en.svg.png
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Edited by - dmgorgon on 17 Dec 2013 16:05:57
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 16:59:49
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I want high-quality maps, thats all. The 4e campaign map was an abomination. I really like Mike Shley's work, but there are others out there fully competent - and talented - enough to make some excellent maps for us (because no one man can map an entire planet, right down to every settlement).
And what I want - in the words of Ed Greenwood - is that they provide lots of "interesting, fiddly-bits" in the features of those maps, that will inspire us to add our own locales. When we see a cove, or forested area with a clearing, or a mountain pass or valley, or just about any spot where something could be but isn't, thats what gets our imaginations stirred - we try to figure-out what could be there. Then we start (mentally) filling-in the back-story of the place. Thats what makes a map great - not what it contains, so much as what it is hiding.
I think that's where the 4e (campaign) map fell way short. Things weren't so much 'hiding', as they were obscured by all the damn ugly.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2013 18:11:05 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 17:20:10
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yes you are correct - lots of howling wilderness with a select few large towns and cities showing.
And yes lots of Barons and Dukes and Earls and Lord High Imperceptors and fourth warden of the western marsh and Second Sir of the Wailing Pond (understudy to the first Sir obviously) and for many of them their Fiefdom extends only as far as their (or more likely their hired guards) sword points. I suspect the level of detail you are asking for will never appear on a grand map, it might show in a localised map, but even then it is purely a snap shot of the time and not a true reflection of the ongoing changes to 'borders' between the Barons.
I strongly suspect Ed designed the Realms to be this way, one or two stable/recognisable 'Kingdoms' spread far apart and then lots and lots of city states and 'self made' Barons to fill in the gaps between said stable kingdoms to allow lots of wriggle room for pesky adventurers to stick their noses into and see what trouble they can stir up!
One point I whole-heartedley agree upon is the quality of maps and the inspiration they provide, more more more excellent quality and inspiring maps please, give me the sandbox to look at and I can fill it!
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1159 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 17:28:51
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| I wonder if the maps will be outsourced to China like so much of the new art. Those guys can draw, no doubt about it, but do they have guys in their house who can do cartography as well? |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 17:42:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I want high-quality maps, thats all. The 4e campaign map was an abomination. I really like Mike Shley's work, but there are others out there fully competent - and talented - enough to make some excellent maps for us (because no one man can map an entire planet, right down to every settlement).
And what I want - in the words of Ed Greenwood - is that they provide lots of "interesting, fiddly-bits" in the features of those maps, that will inspire us to add our own locales. When we see a cove, or forested area with a clearing, or a mountain pass or valley, or just about any spot where something could be but isn't, thats what gets our imaginations stirred - we try to figure-out what could be there. Then we start (mentally) filling-in the back-story of the place. Thats what makes a map great - not what it contains, so much as what it is hiding.
I think that's where the 4e (campaign) map fell way. Things weren't so much 'hiding', as they were obscured by all the damn ugly.
What irks me the most is that not only do many older FR maps include all those tasty tidbits they are also more detailed. Take for example all the Shadowdale maps that have been published to date. IMO, the best and most detailed map is the one in the Shadowdale module. When I read the label "Vernon hilstar's farm" it makes me wonder who this guy vernon is. How will he react to a bunch of adventurers breaking camp on his field? etc...
I don't want to offend anyone here, but IMO, the 4e FR campaign setting is perhaps one of the most useless paperweights ever published, and the map is no different. I'm confident that I'll be able to put it away in storage and never need to refer to it for any of my 5e campaigns. If I'm wrong, then name one thing I can use it for post 4e? On the other hand I can't say the same for my hard cover FR adventures book or even my 1e FR campaign setting (grey box). I'm also still using all the 2e source books, and in some cases I don't know what I would do without them.
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Edited by - dmgorgon on 17 Dec 2013 18:05:03 |
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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 17:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
yes you are correct - lots of howling wilderness with a select few large towns and cities showing.
And yes lots of Barons and Dukes and Earls and Lord High Imperceptors and fourth warden of the western marsh and Second Sir of the Wailing Pond (understudy to the first Sir obviously) and for many of them their Fiefdom extends only as far as their (or more likely their hired guards) sword points. I suspect the level of detail you are asking for will never appear on a grand map, it might show in a localised map, but even then it is purely a snap shot of the time and not a true reflection of the ongoing changes to 'borders' between the Barons.
I strongly suspect Ed designed the Realms to be this way, one or two stable/recognisable 'Kingdoms' spread far apart and then lots and lots of city states and 'self made' Barons to fill in the gaps between said stable kingdoms to allow lots of wriggle room for pesky adventurers to stick their noses into and see what trouble they can stir up!
One point I whole-heartedley agree upon is the quality of maps and the inspiration they provide, more more more excellent quality and inspiring maps please, give me the sandbox to look at and I can fill it!
Cheers
Damian
Yes, a sandbox is ideal, but I still like a shell or a framework to use for that sandbox. In other words, I'm looking for WotC to provide the box. To that end, I see that there are many well established kingdoms that do have fiefdoms. Cormyr and Damara are the prime examples of this in the Realms. Sure, not all areas of the FR need to include such divisions, especially for the large world maps, but there are some kingdoms that are prime candidates for it.
Even if the map does not include such divisions it would be nice if the setting detailed the fiefdoms that each kingdom contains. Yet again, I'd refer to the Bloodstone Lands source book for a good template. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 18:27:24
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FR was once the ULTIMATE 'sandbox' - it personified the whole Points of Light thing 4e was striving for. We had both minute detail, and at the same time, tons of room.
Why they felt that setting, above all others, needed to be changed for PoL(?!) is beyond me. It was the perfect example of one. Lots of 'settled' places with tons of untamed wilderness between, and even within those settlements there was a microcosm of PoL - literally, points-of-light within points-of-light.
They broke the very thing they were trying to create - what they already had! (which is why many of us feel it had less to do with 4e design and rules, and more to do with a desire to reduce the investment required to develop for FR). Look at the maps that came with the OGB - have you ever seen a more PoL setting, ever? You couldn't walk a mile from Waterdeep without running into some trouble. Hell, you didn't even have to leave Waterdeep! It was PERFECT.
You know what REALLY irks me? (uh-oh... here it comes...) that we hear so much (from people who do work for WotC) about "respect for past designers", and "keeping the lore intact"... where the hell was THAT sentiment when 4e was being developed?
So YEAH, lets get 'back to basics', and create really interesting maps, that talented designers - and talented newcomers/fans - can slowly fill-in with stuff. And lets try to fill it all in, and not just the stuff thats been done before. Lets try not to announce another edition right after we've gotten the mandatory Waterdeep and Underdark/Drow books, shall we? If only 3e had lasted long enough to at least finish Faerūn in regional guides, I think we could have been happy.
So, I want lots of detail, and at the same time, enough elbow-room to do whatever I want, and whatever future authors want. Sounds like I am asking for too much? Isn't that what the OGB did for us? Give us a map that will inspire us to DREAM. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2013 12:40:24 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1159 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 18:37:02
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Okay Mark, reel it in some mate. We've all heard the arguments against 4e and there are scrolls on Candlekeep set up to let us vent. We're supposed to be past this. You said it yourself less than two-and-a-half hours ago:
"Anyhow, all this discussion just keeps running us in circles, and gets us nowhere. The only thing it does is stir-up old 'hard feelings', which isn't a good thing. Its self-defeating."
We all want the best for the next 'iteration' of the Realms. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 19:27:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why they felt that setting, above all others, needed to be changed for PoL(?!) is beyond me.
4e went out of it's way to redesign everything the designers could get their hands on. It wasn't enough to radically alter the ruleset, they even altered the cosmology and twisted traditional D&D mythology.
I can accept rule changes and even play with rules I don't like, but I can't accept how much the designers changed things that didn't need fixing.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So, I want lots of detail, and at the same time, enough elbow-room to do whatever I want, and whatever future authors want. Sounds like I am asking for too much? Isn't that what the OGB did for us? Give us a map that will inspire us to DREAM.
IMO, before they detail anything they need to gather all the existing material and make sure they are not glossing over anything. I want one map that I can use without the need to look over the maps of previous editions for new ideas.
You are 100% correct that the map should inspire us to dream. That is certainly the question I'll be asking when I first see it.
I'd really like the designers of the 5e FR to at least acknowledge how important the map is to a campaign setting.
Lastly, when they have the setting done, they need to take a step back and ask themselves if the campaign setting they just created will endure edition changes. In other words, is it edition neutral or is it simply another rule book full of edition specific monsters and powers? |
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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2013 : 19:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So YEAH, lets get 'back to basics', and create really interesting maps, that talented designers - and talented newcomers/fans - can slowly fill-in with stuff. And lets try to fill it all in, and not just the stuff thats been done before. Lets try not to announce another edition right after we've gotten the mandatory Waterdeep and Underdark/Drow books, shall we? If only 3e had lasted long enough to at least finish Faerūn in regional guides, I think we could have been happy.
That is actually a very important design consideration.
When designing an area like the underdark the designers can
a) Rehash and detail existing material
b) Detail new locations
c) Gloss over the old stuff
d) all of the above
I think they need to do all of the above. Some areas can be fixed
by glossing over them, other areas will need to be detailed more, and it goes without saying that we need a fair bit of new material.
If I can run a campaign in the underdark by only using the book for the edition I'm playing then the designers have done something right. On the other hand, if I'm constantly referring to my old 2e source book "The drow of the underdark" something is wrong.
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Edited by - dmgorgon on 17 Dec 2013 19:41:52 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 05:42:57
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I liked 3e maps, and while am not a huge fan of the 1e settng, I would like to point out that the setting has been around for what over 25 years? Things are either
A. Get filled up and we complain about it
or
B.Everything gets written about waterdeep and we complain about it. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 08:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
I don't know about you guys, but I am really looking forward to the new D&D Next FR maps.
Me too.
I like your point about the lack of clearly delineated borders making the Realms appear different than it perhaps is.
While its true borders can (and often do) shift, change or simply evaporate based on the time of year and the state of readiness and power of the rulers within those borders, I dont think its too much to ask for maps of certain parts of the Realms, detailing borders and the like with more detail than the general shape of things as presented on the Regional Feat map on page 29 of the FRCS.
Personally, I would love a super-detailed map of Cormyr that included the names and locations of nobles holdings, the names of rest stops, fortifications and buildings owned and operated by the Crown (e.g., Bleys Hard, Castle Irlingstar, Daunthers, Gyrlondposts, Helduls Rest/Stonewatch, Spurbright Steads/Stonebolt Fields, Stormhaven House, Taverton Hall, Thawngard, Thornthar, Thulsers Lodge info on these HERE) and any of the small, out of the way dungeons or ruins or interesting places that never made it into Volos Guide to Cormyr or that have been uncovered/sprung up since that tome was published.
Speaking of dungeons: Id really like to see a map of a region, or of all the Realms, that gives some idea as to the name and locations of hundreds of lost ruins, dungeons, crumbling castles and lost dwarf holds.
Something that focuses on the Weastern Heartlands, for example.
Not all of these should be detailed in any sourcebook, of course, because DMs need to have the option to build off of the names, thus using them for inspiration, just as the Western Heartlands are left open for DMs who might want to drop a nation of their own creation into the Realms. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 18 Dec 2013 08:54:35 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12219 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 14:03:02
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One thing I'd really like to see is an online map managed by WotC (and I say that knowing that they don't follow through well, which they need to start doing). This map should have essentially the ability to zoom in on an area and pull up a more detailed map, and that should have the ability to zoom in on area and pull up a more detailed map. So, for instance, you scroll over the north, you click waterdeep, you get a map showing the wards, you click on North Ward, you get the major buildings there, you click on the plinth, you get a map. I'm not saying they have to map everything under the sun, but if they make a map for say a module, they can put said map as a link on this online map.
Sadly, I also know they'd pretty much only be able to make this map for 5th edition, working forward. Maybe they could make a basic prior edition version map for 3e and earlier and 4e with public rights to modify for those who really care about such and let the community fill in such detail. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 15:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing I'd really like to see is an online map managed by WotC (and I say that knowing that they don't follow through well, which they need to start doing). This map should have essentially the ability to zoom in on an area and pull up a more detailed map, and that should have the ability to zoom in on area and pull up a more detailed map. So, for instance, you scroll over the north, you click waterdeep, you get a map showing the wards, you click on North Ward, you get the major buildings there, you click on the plinth, you get a map. I'm not saying they have to map everything under the sun, but if they make a map for say a module, they can put said map as a link on this online map.
Sadly, I also know they'd pretty much only be able to make this map for 5th edition, working forward. Maybe they could make a basic prior edition version map for 3e and earlier and 4e with public rights to modify for those who really care about such and let the community fill in such detail.
This would be a very cool idea. Gonna add this to the to-do list for when I get around to designing a FR site. Was thinking it would be fun to build one, even if it's just for campaign notes and such. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 15:24:49
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Following up on your idea, it would be cool if there was an online tool that let people interested in Realmslore input for example, the names of businesses in Waterseep, the street the place is on and approximately where it's found ( e.g. "Three doors down from X shop"), as well as the source of that information and the approximate date.
Building a historical map of Waterdeep seems like a pretty time-intensive task.
Unless the MMO people in China are already on it of course. ;) |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 16:46:45
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I had this in the other (K-T) thread, but its far better suited here:
More inter-connectivity between sub-settings. Maztica had a lot (due to the nature of its discovery), and Kara-Tur had some (not nearly as much as it should have), but Zakhara was barely mentioned in FR material, and vice-versa. Its bizarre - its actually pretty damn close to the Shining South!
I'd like to see all the history-wrinkles ironed-out, and those settings become a true part of the new Forgotten Realms. Also, if they bring back Maztica, they should merge bits of Returned Abeir with it - I think "the sum of the parts will be greater then the whole". In other words, both had their weak spots, but together they could shine.
And, of course, I'd love some Anchorme love (whatever they do with Abeir). I'd personally prefer they move the Flanaes (GH) into FR, but probably not in a lot of people would agree with me there. It just seems like such a waste to have all these other great settings (DL, Birthright, Mystara, CoW, etc, etc) that will never get used. We got us a Sundering: Its the perfect opportunity to recycle all that old stuff and flesh-out the rest of Abeir-Toril.
Oh... one last thing. Give us Xendrik... Eberron got to play with it long enough. Katashaka sucks.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2013 16:47:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 17:03:16
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
I liked 3e maps, and while am not a huge fan of the 1e settng, I would like to point out that the setting has been around for what over 25 years? Things are either
A. Get filled up and we complain about it
or
B.Everything gets written about waterdeep and we complain about it.
That's an over-simplification of things. It's not that people object to Waterdeep coverage, per se, as much as it is that we've had multiple supplements dedicated to that city -- but only one book for Cormyr, published before major changes to the country. And things like that.
What people complain about is when areas they want to see covered don't get covered -- especially when other areas, with plenty of coverage, keep getting covered.
I'm one of the biggest fans of Waterdeep you'll find, but that doesn't mean I don't want coverage for Cormyr, or more about the Border Kingdoms, and so on and so forth. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 17:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had this in the other (K-T) thread, but its far better suited here:
More inter-connectivity between sub-settings. Maztica had a lot (due to the nature of its discovery), and Kara-Tur had some (not nearly as much as it should have), but Zakhara was barely mentioned in FR material, and vice-versa. Its bizarre - its actually pretty damn close to the Shining South!
I'd like to see all the history-wrinkles ironed-out, and those settings become a true part of the new Forgotten Realms. Also, if they bring back Maztica, they should merge bits of Returned Abeir with it - I think "the sum of the parts will be greater then the whole". In other words, both had their weak spots, but together they could shine.
And, of course, I'd love some Anchorme love (whatever they do with Abeir). I'd personally prefer they move the Flanaes (GH) into FR, but probably not in a lot of people would agree with me there. It just seems like such a waste to have all these other great settings (DL, Birthright, Mystara, CoW, etc, etc) that will never get used. We got us a Sundering: Its the perfect opportunity to recycle all that old stuff and flesh-out the rest of Abeir-Toril.
Oh... one last thing. Give us Xendrik... Eberron got to play with it long enough. Katashaka sucks.
Oh ye dancing gods, no. Keep the settings separate -- each one has their own flavor and feel, and dumping everything into one will turn it all into an inedible mess. I like vanilla ice cream, buffalo wings, and subs from Jersey Mike's -- but I don't want them all in one bowl, at the same time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 20:12:05
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Not all of them - just the compatible ones (and keep Eberron entirely separate). I was just thinking that if FR needs a shot-in-the-arm with new fans, pulling together all those fans from other settings might help us in the long run.
I was actually thinking TWO worlds - keep Abeir around, and have it be that 'far side of the sun' planet; a hot jungle world where we can stick Athas, Council of Wyrms, the Saurial's homeworld, maybe even krynn. I am picturing a Venus-like planet - with atmosphere - that has little or no axial tilt. That would give us a 'Forbidden Zone' around the middle, impassable by all except maybe elementals, Dgen, and dragons. Ansalon (DL) is so tiny, it could easily be put within the arctic circle of such a world, in the southern hemisphere (giving it a more temperate climate then most of the rest). In other words, if we can't merge ALL the worlds (and that would be ridiculous), at least have them all within the same system.
The Jakandor mini-setting could easily fit on either - I have placed it between Maztica and Faerūn. I would have put it closer to Zakhara (it fits some of the 'necromancer vibe' some of the islands have), but the Northmen-types don't really work there (unless you count some sort of sea-gate, like Umberlee's Fist, to have transported them there). In fact, it makes an EXCELLENT substitute for that very large island at the end of the chain that trails-off from Zakhara toward katashaka (even the size & shape are correct).
My point is, if they don't have the wherewithal to flesh-out the rest of the planet (and I don't think they do), then they can at least give us some stuff we can use from other settings. Plenty of orphaned core/D&D stuff just floating around the ether these days, looking for a home. Funny thing is, I think this was something they were trying in 4e - the mysterious 'core world' Nentir Vale was on included bits and pieces of other settings. Nentir Vale, BTW, is another thing FR should really grab during the Sundering (picture Abeir & Toril being captains for a dodgeball game, and they get to pick components from the other settings LOL).
I can totally get why most other FR fans would absolutely hate that, but I really don't think fans like us - STORY FANS - are the target audience anymore. I think its being aimed at RPG players, and when it comes to that group, then the more the merrier, as far as material goes. Look at some of their recent releases - the story just doesn't matter anymore; its all about encounters.
I've come to the realization that we - the die-hard FR fans that want OUR Realms back - are a dying breed. We just don't matter, and we aren't enough to keep her afloat. Sometimes, when you love something enough, you just have to set it free. If its got to be a kitchen-sink, ultimate RPG setting, then let them make it the best damn RPG setting ever. At least that will keep it lucrative for them to develop. I think anything less, and it will just fizzle away.
I can't believe I am suggesting they take the 'Nerath' (core) setting idea and apply it to the Realms. I really have come full circle. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2013 20:21:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 20:48:34
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C'mon... you KNOW you want to... 
Funny thing is, Mystara's Red Steel campaign region is in there, but not the main campaign area. I blended Mystara and Golarion into my Realms, so it would be redundant (for me). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2013 20:50:15 |
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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 21:00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What people complain about is when areas they want to see covered don't get covered -- especially when other areas, with plenty of coverage, keep getting covered.
That's true, but it's worse when an area you do love undergoes significant changes, but is only glossed over
For example, if you are going to alter Damara and kill off Gareth's kingdom, you had best provide more details. What 4e did to that area was a travesty. When I picked up the 4e FR campaign book I was expecting to see the Kingdom of Bloodstone or some other logical progression, but to my dismay it was all gone. Later on an issue of Dragon detailed the area, but of course they nuked the area even more in that article. The city of bloodstone was destroyed by the Warlock Knights. Even the borders of baronies have completely changed on the map, and of course no explanation was provided for it.
The best way I can describe what they did to Damara is to use another area of the FR as an example. Imagine for a moment if the 4e campaign guide had a few short paragraphs that said "Waterdeep was destroyed by the Kraken", and provided no more details.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 21:40:28
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I agree.
While most of it got the 'tabula rasa' treatment, other parts remained bizarrely static (don't even get me started about coastal cities still being on the coast... despite the coastline having moved 25-50 miles!)
'No logical progression' is putting it mildly. I hope 5e makes some sense out of the mess 4e created with the maps. I like the Mike Schley map someone posted in another thread, and I'm hoping to see a full-color version of that someday soon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1159 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 14:34:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing I'd really like to see is an online map managed by WotC (and I say that knowing that they don't follow through well, which they need to start doing). This map should have essentially the ability to zoom in on an area and pull up a more detailed map, and that should have the ability to zoom in on area and pull up a more detailed map. So, for instance, you scroll over the north, you click waterdeep, you get a map showing the wards, you click on North Ward, you get the major buildings there, you click on the plinth, you get a map. I'm not saying they have to map everything under the sun, but if they make a map for say a module, they can put said map as a link on this online map.
It's called the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas and has been around since 1999. Tricky to get hold of though and the actual mapping software is propriatary but it includes every map ever made up until its release. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 19:22:38
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I pasted this from the other thread, so as not to be off-topic there:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You want to know something funny I discovered awhile back?
When you try to paste the 3eFR campaign map onto the world map on pg.231 of the 3e FRCS, it doesn't fit. You know why? Because that map is based upon the older (FRIA) maps, and the new maps simply do not work with it - you can't link Faerūn with the rest of the continent anymore (at least not without a LOT of tweaking!)
Thats why we haven't seen anything about those other sub-settings since 3e - they screwed-up in major way. They can't connect them, so its all a big mess. Because of how they squished things, you can't get it to line-up with the Hordleands, or anything else for that matter. They need to revert to the older geography in order to fix the maps... but they won't. Their plan is to continue forward with the completely broken one, which means we CAN'T get to see how Faerūn relates to the rest of the world.
They must have realized this back in 3rd edition - the two world maps we got with 3e do not work together; that was an epic mistake right from the beginning (of 3e).
I don't think it had anything to do with that. They changed maps and continuity readily enough with 3E that making more changes to subsettings wouldn't have been an issue.
I stand corrected.
I did indeed try to reconcile this, by playing with the large maps just now (before, I had try to do it on a regional basis, which causes things to get more and more skewed as you work outward from your start area).
Here was my first attempt, and it appears I was right:
Map 1 - note I only tried to line-up things by overlapping Chult. The southern coast around the Golden Waters Region is WAY off, and a big problem.
However, when I moved things around, I got this:
map 2 - as you can see thats pretty damn good, in regards to lining-up the eastern and southern parts of the world. We'd have to nudge Brightstar Lake a bit east, but not too shabby.
The equator winds up further north in Faerūn that way - up in The Tashalar and across The Shaar. Thats not too awful; it does mean Icewind Dale got even warmer (so Drizzt & Bruenor, put on your Bermuda shorts! LOL)
They need to learn they can't have it both ways - either the maps changed, or they didn't. Which is it? Is Icewind Dale now around the same latitude as Paris?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
213 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 13:29:57
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The shrinking of the Realms for 3E really didn't make much sense. I put together [url=http://thewertzone.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/a-size-comparison-of-fantasy-worlds.html]a rough comparison of fantasy world sizes[/url] showing the size of 1E/2E Faerun compared to the Wheel of Time world, Westeros and Essos from A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE/GAME OF THRONES, Ansalon, Triagia (from Feist's RIFTWAR saga) and of course Middle-earth and even at that size, Faerun looked a little on the small size for the sheer mass of cultures and races it holds compared to many of those other fantasy worlds. Shrinking it in size by what, 20%, for 3E really didn't help with that suspension of disbelief issue.
I'd be all for returning to the 1E/2E scale and geography.
quote:
One thing I'd really like to see is an online map managed by WotC (and I say that knowing that they don't follow through well, which they need to start doing). This map should have essentially the ability to zoom in on an area and pull up a more detailed map, and that should have the ability to zoom in on area and pull up a more detailed map. So, for instance, you scroll over the north, you click waterdeep, you get a map showing the wards, you click on North Ward, you get the major buildings there, you click on the plinth, you get a map. I'm not saying they have to map everything under the sun, but if they make a map for say a module, they can put said map as a link on this online map.
As mentioned above, this is basically the FORGOTTEN REALMS INTERACTIVE ATLAS and yes, the people who designed it have said you could move it to a browser format very easily. However, WotC haven't shown an interest in doing this and certainly no interest at all in updating the maps to 3E or 4E. But yes, it's very doable. |
Edited by - Werthead on 21 Dec 2013 13:34:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 16:48:27
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Most 'fantasy cartographers' are artists, not RW cartographers, and that poses a bit of problem. What they seem to forget when designing a world map is that it should be twice as long as it is tall. In this regard, the Eberron map is a complete mess - their map scales make no sense.
Using our own RW earth maps for comparison doesn't help much, because nearly all of them cut-off most of the arctic regions. We also primarily use Mercator projection, which gives us a highly distorted area. There is no perfect way to depict a globe on a flat surface.
If fantasy maps depict accurate landmasses (which is the assumption, because they do not use a sliding scale on the world maps), then they need to be twice as long as they are tall. The maps can't be distorted, because as they scale down (as they do in individual splats), the distances and shapes remain constant. Therefore fantasy maps (almost) never depict Mercator projections (which have to do with bearing and distance more then accuracy), they are merely accurate representations of the landmasses themselves.
EDIT: I would love to see an accurate world map in 5e - one that actually explains what projection is being used, lines of latitude and longitude, and a sliding scale that should increase as one moves away from the equator. The closest I've seen to that is the one Brian James did for the Candlekeep Compendium - it is one of the few ways in which to accurately depict a globe on a flat surface. The distnces and bearing of the continents in relationship to each other (on the world maps we have) has to be WAY off. We are almost in 2014 - I think they can do something a little better then what we got with the FRIA. I think an online map - that is constantly updating with new lcales - would be a major Coup for WotC. One of the few things Paizo doesn't do well are their world maps - I've noted quite a few problems with them as well (mostly having to do with the ever-evolving nature of their setting). A map of a non-static setting also needs to be non-static. With online resources available, we can finally get fantasy game maps that change as our world changes (and we should also be able to 'dial-in' a date to see how the world has evolved over time - that would be SWEET). 
Wouldn't it be nice if the Golarion people were jealous of us, for a change? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2013 16:59:47 |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
213 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 16:25:51
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| Nice ideas. The FRIA did have the globe which did work surprisingly well (IIRC, it doesn't work on any modern version of Windows) so there's certainly a lot of scope to doing this sort of project. Apparently the guys who did the FRIA even had a version of the globe that did work well on at least XP and Vista, but again WotC and Hasbro weren't interested in allowing them to release it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 16:31:01
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I finally got it working about a year ago for the very first time. Then recently it stopped working again... damn Windows and their updates.
I also think we need layers on these maps, so that DMs can print out what they want - they can be stripped-down (geography only), settlements only, ones with the names of rivers and roads (always a pain in the butt for me), DM-only that have all the dungeons and ruins on them, etc. Thats one nice feature the FRIA did have - in some ways it was ahead of it time.
You give people a resource where they can print-out precisely the map they want, of the precise region they want, and just see how many people flock to FR's banner. Most DMs can't draw their own maps - you give them the tools, and you'll win them over. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2013 16:33:07 |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
213 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 16:16:47
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You can still use the FRIA itself. The surrounding programme is flaky and the globe doesn't work - but the actual maps themselves all still pop open in the viewer quite nicely. What is annoying is that the Campaign Mapper programme from the AD&D Core Rules set no longer works at all (that I've found), which is how I used to change and mix and match maps in that way (most notably, changing the default font on the FRIA, which I find borderline unreadable). The only way to do it now is to buy an actual copy of Campaign Cartographer.
It is annoying we have this amazing resource - thousands of maps of the Realms from world and continent maps right down to dungeons, taverns and villages - and it's almost impossible to legally find a copy and if you can, it's impossible to use. Makes you wonder why WotC spent (presumably) tens of thousands of dollars on it in the first place just to let it lapse into unusability quite soon afterwards. |
Edited by - Werthead on 24 Dec 2013 16:17:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 16:44:02
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Like I said above, I think this is a case of it being 'ahead of its time'. I remember seeing it on shelves at the local Comp USA, and thiking I should buy it at some point, and then just a couple of months later it was gone. The nature of the newly-emerging home computer market made it hard to sell, because no-one new WHERE to sell it (my local games stores didn't carry it).
It was just one of those truly great products that was too niche and fell into obscurity. The one big problem with it - because of when it was made - is that a lot of times you can't view the entire region you want, and you get stuck having to click through a half-dozen larger maps to get to see the rest of some feature that lead off the map you were on. Some regions are insanely frustrating that way, and are spread across 4 different major map sections.
Can you imagine what they could do now, with today's tech? It would be even more amazing (because that product IS amazing, for when it was created).
I'm still waiting for my hard copy of the FRIA from a certain someone LOL. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Dec 2013 16:45:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36991 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 18:01:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Like I said above, I think this is a case of it being 'ahead of its time'. I remember seeing it on shelves at the local Comp USA, and thiking I should buy it at some point, and then just a couple of months later it was gone. The nature of the newly-emerging home computer market made it hard to sell, because no-one new WHERE to sell it (my local games stores didn't carry it).
It was just one of those truly great products that was too niche and fell into obscurity. The one big problem with it - because of when it was made - is that a lot of times you can't view the entire region you want, and you get stuck having to click through a half-dozen larger maps to get to see the rest of some feature that lead off the map you were on. Some regions are insanely frustrating that way, and are spread across 4 different major map sections.
Can you imagine what they could do now, with today's tech? It would be even more amazing (because that product IS amazing, for when it was created).
I'm still waiting for my hard copy of the FRIA from a certain someone LOL.
I agree -- it was pricy software, released when not everyone had a home computer. Had it come out even a few years later, it would have sold much better...
I'm still happy that I got my copies when I did: the TSR Mail Order Hobby Shop was dumping that and the Dragon Magazine Archive for half-price! I've used those programs on more computers than I can count... |
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D&D Next Forgotten Realms Maps
