Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 sorcerers of the realms
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe

USA
361 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2004 :  18:09:30  Show Profile  Visit Sourcemaster2's Homepage Send Sourcemaster2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
There are many well-known wizards in the realms, but few famous sorcerers. Does anyone have a list of names, stats, ect, for some FR sorcs?

But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2004 :  12:25:27  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as I know, such a listing does not exist. However I would be interested in seeing one, should a scribe here feel so inclined in putting one together...

I would like to work up said listing, but I simply do not have the time to undertake another project.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2004 :  06:16:44  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First, high-level characters are rare, and sorcerers are supposed to be the rarest of the core classes. I doubt there are more than a handful of high-level NPC sorcerers around.

And besides, Sage . . . you have far too much on your plate anyway.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2004 :  10:34:07  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another determining factor of 'High' Sorcerers would be that fact that 'sorcery' magic is still a relatively new discipline (at least in games terms) so the potential for High Sorcerers would definitely be lower than the potential for newer Archmage Wizards...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2004 :  13:53:06  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Speaking up for Ed's Realms: the introduction of 3E sorcerers is something of a retcon; though Sean Reynolds has argued that the new rules illuminate characters who were sorcerers all along, I'm not alone in believing that many such cases (such as the Simbul) are spurious changes to showcase the new rules.

On the other hand, Ed has said that something like sorcerers do exist in his Realms, in the form of very rare spontaneous magical 'wild talents'. But the word 'sorcerer' is used in (pre-3E, at least) Realmslore as a near-synonym of 'mage' and 'wizard' with an evil connotation.
Go to Top of Page

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2004 :  18:22:46  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I had my druthers, I'd justify it by saying that while they've existed all along, they're getting more frequent; and, as the idea of sorcery becomes known, it would stand to reason that those with the ability (if not the inborn talent) would begin their own investigation into these powers. (Sort of a "What, you mean I don't have to study for it? Sign me up!" reaction. )

As for rewriting existing characters, I don't mind that. I'm glad they didn't do it for Elminster, though.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2004 :  08:13:35  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Speaking up for Ed's Realms: the introduction of 3E sorcerers is something of a retcon; though Sean Reynolds has argued that the new rules illuminate characters who were sorcerers all along, I'm not alone in believing that many such cases (such as the Simbul) are spurious changes to showcase the new rules.

On the other hand, Ed has said that something like sorcerers do exist in his Realms, in the form of very rare spontaneous magical 'wild talents'. But the word 'sorcerer' is used in (pre-3E, at least) Realmslore as a near-synonym of 'mage' and 'wizard' with an evil connotation.

Hmm...that's interesting, and also pretty much how I expected the justification between 2e and 3e to be. Still, it's always nice to know Mr. Greenwoods thoughts on Realmslore...thanks for that Faraer...

As for the term 'sorcerer' having an evil connotation, well that's something that's not just limited to the Realms, or TSR/WotC for that matter. The term Sorcerer has always been seen in a somewhat negative/standoff-ish light, originally derived from the vulgar Latin word sortiarius, literally "one who influences, fate, fortune".

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2004 :  13:21:54  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bookwyrm, isn't that just how it's been done? I don't like it because the sorcerer class was created as a sop to those who don't like the patience and forethought inherent in fully Vanceian magic (which the Realms had before D&D). In other words a world is being affected by an attempt at crowd-pleasing a different crowd from the one that likes the world.
Go to Top of Page

EcThelion
Learned Scribe

Norway
323 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2004 :  18:20:04  Show Profile  Visit EcThelion's Homepage Send EcThelion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
The term Sorcerer has always been seen in a somewhat negative/standoff-ish light, originally derived from the vulgar Latin word sortiarius, literally "one who influences, fate, fortune".

Personally I'd be proud to have such a title!

Ec'Thelion, formerly known as Forgotten One, now known as Ec'Thelion the Overpowered.
Currently not all that active. I'm preoccupied with Warcraft III for the moment. Bite me :P
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2004 :  13:09:31  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually what I had meant by that was that through the earlier periods of the Middle Ages, 'sorcerers' (for lack of a more appropriate term) had often been seen as weavers of fate, messing with elements (considered Divine in origin) most thought they had no business dealing with - thus the interpretation of an 'evil' connotation with the actual title.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2004 :  16:45:03  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Bookwyrm, isn't that just how it's been done? I don't like it because the sorcerer class was created as a sop to those who don't like the patience and forethought inherent in fully Vanceian magic (which the Realms had before D&D). In other words a world is being affected by an attempt at crowd-pleasing a different crowd from the one that likes the world.



I understand, and kind of agree. I say kind of because I'm not very experienced at this sort of thing; however, in NWN, the wizard's a lot better than the sorcerer. In game terms, the sorcerer also appears pretty redundant.

However, in story terms, the idea of near-unpredictable magical talent suddenly popping up here and there, without the time and training that wizards have to put in, is a very good one. I actually have a story like this that I started back in 2000, after 3e came out but before I ever picked up a rule book (which wasn't until after I came here).

In it, an alternate Europe is described, where power is shared by kings, Church, and the wizards. The Church is a bit weaker than in our own history, with the slack being taken up by the powerful mage guilds. You essentially can't be anything other than a hedge wizard without the consent (and, of course, control) of the mage guilds. So when storms of wild magic start rolling across the land, and people suddenly develop powerful magical talents, the wizards' collective power is threatened.

The wizards hold an emergency meeting of almost every mage guild in Europe, and agree that these wild talents must be stamped out if their power is to survive. They convince the Christian churches that anyone suddenly gaining magical power must have been consorting with the Devil. Since Church officials (of any denomination) have never been altogether pleased with the magic-users as a whole (magic isn't evil, it's just best left in the hands of Churchmen who can "withstand the temptations of power" -- go figure), this isn't hard to do.

It holds less and less water as time goes on, and more people gain these powers, but that's the offical story. So, of course, any people with wild talents are considered witches and hellspawn by the superstitious populace. It's started a huge witch-hunt craze across Europe, with people being burned on flimsy evidence as they were in our history.

That's how sorcerers could be considered in a campaign setting. Not really in Faerun, since first, there's no one "evil being" to blame things on (which is more important than one might think), and second, the people are more tolerant of sorcerers, since most people can't tell the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard. However, if there were a campaign setting where wizards had to join guilds to get passed level four, sorcerers could easily be used like this.

By the way, I'm sure that Sage's gears are ticking at the familiarity of the story; yes, it did start out as an X-Men-esque "mutant phenomenon." I wasn't planing on publishing it anyway.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 :  02:18:55  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad you said that Bookwyrm, because I was beginning to think it was just me...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Ius
Seeker

Sweden
63 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 :  03:01:54  Show Profile  Visit Ius's Homepage Send Ius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One fictional character that I can see as directly relevant to this discussion is Merlin. Merlin would in 3e rules definetly be a sorcerer since his blood is from that of a devil/demon. However if you read the different stories surrounding Arthur, Merlin is often described as a wizard. For me as a non native speaker of english I ahve a distinct feeling that the term sorceress would better describe Morgana than Merlin...
I would be really interesting if someone on this forum could write something about the historical conotations of these words, like the Sage did. As we all know the meaning of words change with time, and it would be really interesting to know why I find the word wizard less malicious sounding than the words sorcerer or warlock(bad language skills or to much B-film horrror?)
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 :  06:19:03  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it is probably a little bit of both, as well as the cultural trends and certain religious values that most of us were raised with which have shaped most our perceptions and attitudes to such supernatural issues. For a very long time throughout the darker periods of the Middle Ages, the use of 'Magic', and to a lesser extent 'Witchcraft' were considered tools of the Devil. These basic attitudes shaped some of the more conservative religious thinking that was too follow on from the early 1200's through to, and beyond the Reformation Era, and onto the stage of the early-to-mid 20th century.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 :  17:25:55  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As well, the two 'nice' terms (wizard and mage) actually mean something else. Witch, sorcerer, etc., all mean people who mess around with natural forces like they're thinking their God Himself. Wizard comes from the English word for "wise," which is why slang used to refer to smart people as "wiz kids." (Wiz is actually the original word, as far back as I found it.) Mage, on the other hand, comes from the word magi, a scholar/philosopher/priest. And -- something I'd like to throw at idiots like Jack Chick -- it's in the Bible referring to a good guy.

So, in short:

Sorcerer, witch, warlock: Nasty, power-hungry.
Mage, wizard: Wise, learned.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
Go to Top of Page

Lord Rad
Great Reader

United Kingdom
2080 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 :  17:42:11  Show Profile  Visit Lord Rad's Homepage Send Lord Rad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

So, in short:

Sorcerer, witch, warlock: Nasty, power-hungry.
Mage, wizard: Wise, learned.



Beautifully summed up, Bookwyrm I always thought it a strange thing when sorcerers turned up in 3rd ed. and whilst it states (in the PHB somewhere i think) that sorcerers are aligned towards chaos rather than law, I always thought of them as being evil, or neutral at a push..... but maybe im just going for the stereotype with that image.

Lord Rad

"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"

Edited by - Lord Rad on 13 Feb 2004 17:42:56
Go to Top of Page

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 :  17:47:03  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Probably so. Like Sage said, it's embedded in the language.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2286 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2018 :  15:48:40  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Sourcemaster2,

Here is a pretty comprehensive list of (198) sorcerers in the Realms:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Sorcerers

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2

There are many well-known wizards in the realms, but few famous sorcerers. Does anyone have a list of names, stats, ect, for some FR sorcs?


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000