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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 15:11:35
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I always loved the 'high magic' feel of the Realms, but I wan't to include some sense of 'cost' into the studie of the arts.
If you would add negative consequences to handling the different magic energies, what would those be for the arcane casters of Faerun?
An example of a cost of using magic:
In my campaings, invisibility spells, when overused, tend to decrease a casters sence of self. Some illusionists are so obsessed with the freedom they experience when 'not there anymore' that they cannot see a reason not to spend most of their days as a phantom (think of the plot of the invisible man or its adaptation hollow man). Many aspiring illusionist apprentices have been known to be experimenting with long duration invisibility spells and at some point simply don't return to a visible state. Some believe they even forget what they used to be, and fade entirely from the world (perhaps shifting into the ethereal plane or the plane of air to become invisible stalkers).
I found out in reading Eds answers about certain spell duels, transmuters make the most cruel magical punishments, one in particular that stood out to me was a curse that made the losing wizard change shape constantly every few seconds. It must be a terrifying existance...
That leads me to think of the evil psyche of transmuters. Transmutation school magics have a tendency to make arcane casters suffer from mild dimorphic disorders, i.e. an obsession with changing their form into the self image they have (formed) of themselves. This can lead to arcane caster becoming disgusted of their normal forms, preferring a changed self over their natural one. Some might even become so obsessed with perfect forms they'd want to project those onto others, making them forcefully change their environment into the state 'it always should have had'.
Now here's a tricky thought. What negative emotion or mental state would you link to the abjuration school of magics? Overprotectiveness? Paranoia?
Let us know!
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 16:11:00
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Infowars-level paranoia would be apt for Divinination.
For Abjuration, I'd go for more an OCD-level of preparedness. Always having plans and contingencies. Always having an out. Highly safety concious. Never sitting with their backs to the door. The kinds of people that if they're corporate, they're always signing up for the safety committee and taping down power cords with duct tape to where they can't be removed without a CostCo-sized barrel of goo-be-gone. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12092 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 18:14:01
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Enchanters who constantly question their own motives for doing things, fearing that someone else may have foisted their own agenda into their minds.
Conjurers who become so lazy that they use a summoned being for nearly every physical act (opening the door, putting away the groceries, taking a bath, etc...)
Necromancers who well.... are necromancers
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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muir
Acolyte
Canada
41 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 19:05:00
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These came out of my in-development school-specific spell-mishap tables (similar to wild surges, but happen whenever a spellcaster miscasts a spell.)
Conjuration: When calling/summoning spells are overused, the spellcaster grows less self-reliant. This can lead to a manipulative mindset, where others are viewed as tools.
Creation spells can lead to a megalomaniac mindset, see below.
Evocation: Can also lead to a megalomaniac mindset, and possibly sadism. This results from wielding powers that few others have, and the capacity to directly inflict one's will on what the gods created. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 21:36:20
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I see excellent suggestions here. I like the ones for enchanters and evokers. Make for good motivations for rival NPC wizards I will have to explore in roleplay.
I also think certain arcane energies exact a physical toll on Faeruns casters. As an example Evokers and Divine casters in my Realms tend to get white hair early. Its a side effect of the energies and radiations controlled by their mind; the pigments in their hairs (and sometimes their eyes) are broken down over the course of a few years worth of casting lots of blasty and light type spells.
Necromantic energies literally eat away at life, so most necromancers that manipulate a lot of 'dark energies' get emaciated or 'hollow' looks. I think that is why you see most necromancers with sunken eyes, broken hair and skinny bodies even before they attained lichdom.
Enchantment energies I imagine feel invigorating to wield, concentrating the will through a medium into a force that entrances others must be a powerful feeling. This can become a habit to such an extent that breaking minds of others becomes a reflexive thought. Some vampires are habitual enchanters and their 'charm' actively fatal.
Conjurers have to manipulate strange alien energies from bizarre planes of existance. Consequently I see them as the most likely to become 'invaded' by strange thoughts that slowly loosen their bond and favorable view of the prime with each contact to an other plane or planar being.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 23:39:28
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| I've never been fond of forcing this sort of thing onto players myself. If I were to implement something like this I would have a series of saves over the course of one's career to see if the effects can be forestalled (maybe even prevented entirely if truly lucky with those saves). Also, if you're using feats, then perhaps allow a wizard to overcome these consequences by choosing appropriate feats. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 04:59:05
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While wizards are strong, in mechanics, and strong in will. I don't see this either, these are more character flaws, then something a wizard should face. You would pigeon hole entire schools with such behavior.
Allows a will save if you *must * do this. So what are you going to make the fighter do , if they become reliant on a shield, they flinch anytime something moves at them? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 23:47:23
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2E PHBR4: Complete Wizards Handbook offers brief rules for “magical afflictions“, and the can be rather obviously associated with conjurings, necromancies, illusions, etc.
The Candlekeep search genie can locate an old scroll in which I also presented my own (wild magic) affliction, proudly called “Typo“. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12092 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 09:03:29
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| Ah, I don't see this as something to do as any random role, but it makes sense for some oddball npc design if you want them to stick out to your players. I mean, what player wouldn't remember the NPC enchanter who was always questioning whether the voices in their head were their own.... and then visibly gloating as they screw with someone else. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 17:03:25
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| Pathfinder already linked the schools of magic with negative emotional associations. Before they became the schools of magic, each was associated with a sin and the greatest practitioners of that type of magic were also renowned for their sinful ways. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 04:19:01
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| I would never have required magical side effects - I definitely would go with a 1d100 table with a range of possible outcomes - the majority of which 1-50 would be no effect and the next 51-30 would be something extremely minor. Only rarely should there be a direct side effect. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 16:34:24
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Yeah, boggin' down players of arcane classes with afflictions is not my intention. I am mainly looking for story beats involving emotions and the manipulation of arcane energies.
Like the pathfinder thing (what book do I need to track down to find this story about the 7 sins and the schools of magic?), I see great story potential linking magic schools to emotions and/or sin.
If I had to guess the schools would be linked so:
evocation ----- anger
conjuration ----- sloth
enchantment ----- lust
divination ----- pride
illusion ----- greed
necromancy ----- gluttony (yeah, a stretch)
abjuration ----- envy
It would also work to link positive values to the schools though, the emotions that should control the vices inherent in magic use, as these emotions are needed to have a degree of mastery over their school of magic. These would be especially important to divine casters or spellcasting prodigies (especially young untrained sorcerers) who want greater control or understanding of their highest level spells. These would be:
evocation ----- patience
conjuration ----- diligence
enchantment ----- chastity
divination ----- humility
illusion ----- charity
necromancy ----- temperance
abjuration ----- kindness
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 23:41:37
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| yeah what d&d needs, more links to the bible and 7 sins, lol. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2013 : 00:25:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I always loved the 'high magic' feel of the Realms, but I wan't to include some sense of 'cost' into the studie of the arts.
If you would add negative consequences to handling the different magic energies, what would those be for the arcane casters of Faerun?
An example of a cost of using magic:
In my campaings, invisibility spells, when overused, tend to decrease a casters sence of self. Some illusionists are so obsessed with the freedom they experience when 'not there anymore' that they cannot see a reason not to spend most of their days as a phantom (think of the plot of the invisible man or its adaptation hollow man). Many aspiring illusionist apprentices have been known to be experimenting with long duration invisibility spells and at some point simply don't return to a visible state. Some believe they even forget what they used to be, and fade entirely from the world (perhaps shifting into the ethereal plane or the plane of air to become invisible stalkers).
I found out in reading Eds answers about certain spell duels, transmuters make the most cruel magical punishments, one in particular that stood out to me was a curse that made the losing wizard change shape constantly every few seconds. It must be a terrifying existance...
That leads me to think of the evil psyche of transmuters. Transmutation school magics have a tendency to make arcane casters suffer from mild dimorphic disorders, i.e. an obsession with changing their form into the self image they have (formed) of themselves. This can lead to arcane caster becoming disgusted of their normal forms, preferring a changed self over their natural one. Some might even become so obsessed with perfect forms they'd want to project those onto others, making them forcefully change their environment into the state 'it always should have had'.
Now here's a tricky thought. What negative emotion or mental state would you link to the abjuration school of magics? Overprotectiveness? Paranoia?
Let us know!
Hehehe. I still remember in Road of the Patriarch.
When the Dwarf is explaining how the wizard, to punish 2 people, changed one into a snake and one into a mouse. Then halfway through the meal.....changed them back. ROFL
That and when the same wizard turned a man into a mouse in front of his favorite pet cat when the man exclaimed that his cat loved him as much as he loved it. "Let's see!"
Transmutation certainly does have a high ceiling for cruelty. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2013 : 11:04:17
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
yeah what d&d needs, more links to the bible and 7 sins, lol.
Not that the 7 sins are listed in the Bible...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12092 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2013 : 20:23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Yeah, boggin' down players of arcane classes with afflictions is not my intention. I am mainly looking for story beats involving emotions and the manipulation of arcane energies.
Like the pathfinder thing (what book do I need to track down to find this story about the 7 sins and the schools of magic?), I see great story potential linking magic schools to emotions and/or sin.
If I had to guess the schools would be linked so:
evocation ----- anger
conjuration ----- sloth
enchantment ----- lust
divination ----- pride
illusion ----- greed
necromancy ----- gluttony (yeah, a stretch)
abjuration ----- envy
It would also work to link positive values to the schools though, the emotions that should control the vices inherent in magic use, as these emotions are needed to have a degree of mastery over their school of magic. These would be especially important to divine casters or spellcasting prodigies (especially young untrained sorcerers) who want greater control or understanding of their highest level spells. These would be:
evocation ----- patience
conjuration ----- diligence
enchantment ----- chastity
divination ----- humility
illusion ----- charity
necromancy ----- temperance
abjuration ----- kindness
Ummm, I'd never call evokers patient, enchanters chaste, or illusionists charitable. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2013 : 22:57:43
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Some optional/alternate rules for magic systems are suggested in the 2E PO: Spells & Magic sourcebook. Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know leads users of supernatural forces - unavoidably - towards temporary or permanent insanity. Burnt By Lightning prematurely ages or decays magic users, slowly killing them in small increments each time they cast a spell. Appeasing The Spirits basically forces wizards to behave a bit like priests (or make fiendish pacts) wherein they must trade their services, humanity, sanity, or soul for access to the occult. These are just examples.
I would think that the “price“ exacted in return for power in systems like these would tend to attract individuals of certain temperament (namely, those who are ruthless, arrogant, desperate, or foolish enough to make such sacrifices for power) and these would evolve along obvious paths towards certain ultimate personal strengths and weaknesses.
I never had much luck convincing my players to try these sorts of things out - they rather strongly oppose being forced to play “nerfed“ wizards, no sense of adventure, I tell ye. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 15:10:00
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Yeah, boggin' down players of arcane classes with afflictions is not my intention. I am mainly looking for story beats involving emotions and the manipulation of arcane energies.
Like the pathfinder thing (what book do I need to track down to find this story about the 7 sins and the schools of magic?), I see great story potential linking magic schools to emotions and/or sin.
If I had to guess the schools would be linked so:
evocation ----- anger
conjuration ----- sloth
enchantment ----- lust
divination ----- pride
illusion ----- greed
necromancy ----- gluttony (yeah, a stretch)
abjuration ----- envy
It would also work to link positive values to the schools though, the emotions that should control the vices inherent in magic use, as these emotions are needed to have a degree of mastery over their school of magic. These would be especially important to divine casters or spellcasting prodigies (especially young untrained sorcerers) who want greater control or understanding of their highest level spells. These would be:
evocation ----- patience
conjuration ----- diligence
enchantment ----- chastity
divination ----- humility
illusion ----- charity
necromancy ----- temperance
abjuration ----- kindness
Ummm, I'd never call evokers patient, enchanters chaste, or illusionists charitable. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement.
I might not have been clear what that second list is about. If the single emotion is influencing your schools magic, perhaps a measure of control over its opposite emotion influences a schools magic as well. To break the limits an opposit emotion lays on that caster, control over that opposite emotion is very helpful, especially at higher level spells where concentration and precision in casting is paramount.
So for example, at lower levels, a specialist invoker mage needs to harness his inner anger to direct the targetting of his magic missile spells. But to advance the number of missiles he can actually control at the release of the spell, he requires to build up a certain mental patience, unocking more and more missiles as he advances in levels and spell mastery.
Or an illusionist. Typically he'll need a thorough understanding of what he wants (i.e. a certain desire or greed for an object or person) to make an accurate depiction of it. But to master other peoples expectations is what makes a grand illusionist grand; a master has learned that knowing what others want is the road to mastery, and acting through on charity keeps him in touch with what that is at the moment. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 20:42:37
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Pathfinder played with the magic schools linked to the seven sins for their first adventure path. The Runelords each represented one of the sins and the associated school. This is how they organized them and the rationale:
Envy - Abjuration: Envy focuses on suppressing magic other than their own.
Gluttony - Necromancy: Sin mages of Gluttony seek to manipulate their bodies in their unending hunger for life.
Greed - Transmutation: Greed mages delight in transforming things into other things, as well as enhancing themselves.
Lust - Enchantment: Lust is gain of personal satisfaction at manipulating other' minds, emotions, and wills.
Pride - Illusion: Pride is perfection of ones own appearance and domain through trickery and illusion.
Sloth - Conjuration: Sloth enlists agents and minions to perform their tasks, or create what is needed as needed.
Wrath - Evocation: Wrath focuses on complete mastery of raw destructive power, and delight in channeling those destructive forces in awesome displays.
* More info here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/thassilonian-specialist |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 07 Feb 2014 20:43:15 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2014 : 22:48:58
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Frankly, to me it looks like either "pretending too hard" or downright loonie thing. "I'm memorized 2x Confusion today... I feel horny!"  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 05:46:23
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Actually I don't think its nerfing as much as it is roleplaying. All these "afflictions" seem to be more roleplaying aspects.
Though if you use aspects like Necromancers becoming more gaunt and therefore losing stats in Str and gaining in Wis or Int then yes, that would be "nerfing" of a sort |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 05:49:18
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Frankly, to me it looks like either "pretending too hard" or downright loonie thing. "I'm memorized 2x Confusion today... I feel horny!"
It works for me... A handful of charm spells, and you've convinced one big dude to not beat you up, a second guy to hand you his wallet, and a lovely lass who otherwise wouldn't look at you to go back to your place.
Not commenting on the morality of any of that, I'm just saying that connecting lust to enchantment is reasonable, to me.
One of the definitions of lust is "a passionate or overmastering desire or craving." Obviously, lust is usually associated with sexual desire (I've fallen in lust a time or two, myself), but it can be associated with other things, like money or power. Gollum's desire to reclaim his Precious could easily be described as a type of lust, especially given the definition above. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Feb 2014 05:53:43 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 00:27:27
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And I‘d always thought Enchanters were so tame. Especially when compared to Necromancers.
I observe that D&D has always treated (and defined) magic as an “external“ energy source. The Realms is a fine example, going so far as to explicitly explain the Weave and magical energy permeating the world (and incidentally claiming our owl world is a “low magic“ setting exposed to less of this external energy). D&D characters (PCs, NPCs, and characters in the fiction) tend to automatically adopt a magic-is-just-a-tool attitude: all the boons and banes of magic are due not to the nature of the magic itself but to the nature of those who wield it. (Sure, there‘s plenty of superstitious, ignorant, and fearful folk who abhor magic as an intrinsically bad thing, but these are basically a minority in D&D settings. Even the most savage and backward humanoids have shamans.)
It just seems to me that this mechanistic view of magic would lead one towards a general perception of magic as an object. Not unlike how we might view electricity or firearms. It‘s no longer an art best practiced by those talented in art, it‘s just an ordinary thing which happens to be understood by those who are intelligent enough to study it ... and misunderstood by those who are too stupid and inept (ie, mages might automatically and unconsciously radiate the sort of arrogant attitude characterized by Karsus).
Objectification, arrogance, elitism ... use and abuse and claim the advantage over mundane simpletons. What more needs be said about the attitudes of mages? (And how easily might a wizard‘s attitude change after being thumped by a fighter?) |
[/Ayrik] |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 06:46:04
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Let me take it a different direction:
So far this only applies to specialists. What if you kept track of how many spells you cast out of each school, and gained a cumulative 1% chance of developing the side effects. Which gives a great explanation for why so many archmages are mad--not just specialists. Give players an ability to remediate their drawbacks by undertaking missions for Mystra.
Abjurers gradually become reclusive--agoraphobic, xenophobic, paranoid
Diviners those their sense of the present resulting in initiative penalties as their minds are processing a good deal more information than others. Making quick decisions in real life is hard enough without considering personality auras, alignments, the presence of astral, invisible, or other unseen phenomena. Resulting in border line schizophrenia--detached from reality.
Conjurers pick up megalomania--they look at the people around them as tools to their ends
Illusionists pick up pathological lying and deception. Fooling people gives them a sense of power.
Evokers lose impulse control--they're accustomed to instantaneous results.
Transmuters suffer from depression--they wish the world around them was different than it is.
Necromancy gradually draws one toward un-life. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 15 Feb 2014 06:46:54 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 12:53:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Actually I don't think its nerfing as much as it is roleplaying. All these "afflictions" seem to be more roleplaying aspects.
I don't see how inclusion of random one-note gimmicks is "roleplaying". They look more like either slapstick gags (loonie) or "OMG LOOK HOW I'M ROLEPLAYING! I deserve XP for roleplaying." (trying too hard).
Does an attempt to define a character with another game mechanical variable, alignment, qualify as roleplaying, or is this most often detrimential to roleplaying?.. Same thing. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Side effects of magic schools
