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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 23:06:41
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I'm wondering if there has been any word about the future of Undermountain and Halaster in the new edition.
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 02:33:57
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| While I'm not sure how definitive it is or how it works with canon lore...Arena of War has some "adventures" in Undermountain and includes an image of Halaster...but as of yet I haven't unlocked any useful bits of information... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 03:15:52
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Not directly.
But current and "recently" released 4e products [like Halls of Undermountain] definitely leave the door more than a little open for the possible return of Halaster in *some* form.
And besides, while Halaster WASN'T a Chosen a Mystra, Ed has, in the past, specifically noted that the Mad Mage is/was SOMETHING special. We just don't know exactly what that is. So we really can't say or know how his demise and the future of Undermountain... may still be linked. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 16:57:52
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| Brian James' non-canon Realms timeline included a snippet about Flamsterd being ordered to collect Halaster's Soul Shards in 1376 DR by the High One. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 18:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Brian James' non-canon Realms timeline included a snippet about Flamsterd being ordered to collect Halaster's Soul Shards in 1376 DR by the High One.
Didn't Flamsterd die already as well? |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:02:15
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| As far as I'm aware Flamsterd's fate during the 4E era remains unknown. Azuth, on the other hand, suffered a painful death at the hands of Asmodeus at the start of the Spellplague. Of course, if it were up to me Flamsterd's quest to restore Halaster to the mortal realm would ultimately achieve success, perhaps during the events of the (3rd) Sundering. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 17:06:47
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Actually, I'm think this as really the fifth Sundering (this way we have one for each edition - easier to keep track of that way). We are just unaware of the other two because everyone forgot about them after the 'world was changed forever' (until the next sundering, that is).
Fifth Sundering... that has a certain ring to it. Its like 'fifth column'.
Anyhow, I figure its like Ravenloft - when a world has a major 'reset', people tend to forget what it was like before history was altered (unless the knowledge was protected with some form of Chrono-shielding). Thats a great way to cover a lot of the weirdness (glitches) that creep-in between editions. "It used to be like this, but now its like this..." makes sense, because both pieces of lore are true at the time.
ANYWAY.... 
Yeah... Halaster... a must-have come 5e. Its just not FR without him. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Oct 2013 17:09:00 |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 16:50:47
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quote:
Yeah... Halaster... a must-have come 5e. Its just not FR without him.
I totally and completely agree with you Markustay.
I really do not care one way or another how they bring him back, but Undermountain is just not the same without him and neither are the Realms for that matter.
In my Realms he never died. |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 19:02:42
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| Undermountain is not Undermountain without Halaster. The Realms was in print long before Halaster was ever mentioned. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 23:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Undermountain is not Undermountain without Halaster. The Realms was in print long before Halaster was ever mentioned.
Anyone remember the first time Halaster was mentioned? I know Undermountain was mentioned in Waterdeep & The North - that's 1987. Anyone go further back? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 23:21:49
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| I don't think he was named in print before the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set, but I'll readily admit that I could have forgotten an earlier reference. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 00:22:03
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| IIRC, Mystra actually came out and said to Halaster the she had something special in mind for him at the end of Elminster in Hell. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 01:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Undermountain is not Undermountain without Halaster. The Realms was in print long before Halaster was ever mentioned.
Anyone remember the first time Halaster was mentioned? I know Undermountain was mentioned in Waterdeep & The North - that's 1987. Anyone go further back?
Yeah, but that mention of undermountain in Waterdeep and the North had no mention of Halaster. I only state this because your statement can be misread if one isn't careful.
This was its extent, and then there were some additional references to individuals with links to undermountain like Durnan, but Halaster isn't mentioned at all:
At least three major networks of underground passages are known to exist beneath Waterdeep#145;s busy streets. Undermountain, a deep, many-leveled former dwarven city and implies, lies largely beneath Mount Waterdeep, is the largest and most famous (in tavern-talk) of these. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 01:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Undermountain is not Undermountain without Halaster. The Realms was in print long before Halaster was ever mentioned.
While the Realms was in print long before Halaster, my introduction to the Forgotten Realms was an Undermountain campaign as a player. Then I wanted to read everything about Halaster and Undermountain I could get my hands on. Then I became introduced to the rest of the Forgotten Realms. |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 08:34:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Undermountain is not Undermountain without Halaster. The Realms was in print long before Halaster was ever mentioned.
Anyone remember the first time Halaster was mentioned? I know Undermountain was mentioned in Waterdeep & The North - that's 1987. Anyone go further back?
Yeah, but that mention of undermountain in Waterdeep and the North had no mention of Halaster. I only state this because your statement can be misread if one isn't careful.
Good point. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 10:42:34
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Noob question comming up....
Didn't he die during his attemt to save Elminster in hell? While under some temporary chosen template thing? Or am I as I said... just an über noob? |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 31 Oct 2013 10:43:19 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 11:38:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Noob question comming up....
Didn't he die during his attemt to save Elminster in hell? While under some temporary chosen template thing? Or am I as I said... just an über noob?
Nope he died offstage when, while doing "something", "something else" went wrong with that "something" and "somehow" the situation got so out of hand that he died, his soul was shattered and pieces of it went all over Realmspace and Waterdeep was shaken by an earthquake.
This prior to the Spellplauge in the late 1370s or early 1380s, don't have GHotR to check at the moment. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 13:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Noob question comming up....
Didn't he die during his attemt to save Elminster in hell? While under some temporary chosen template thing? Or am I as I said... just an über noob?
Nope he died offstage when, while doing "something", "something else" went wrong with that "something" and "somehow" the situation got so out of hand that he died, his soul was shattered and pieces of it went all over Realmspace and Waterdeep was shaken by an earthquake.
This prior to the Spellplauge in the late 1370s or early 1380s, don't have GHotR to check at the moment.
Yup. And whatever he was doing was in reaction to the coming Spellplague, which Hally somehow knew about, despite the fact that he's never shown any prophetic tendencies in the past, and despite the fact that deities -- especially the deity of divination -- somehow didn't know it was coming. 
And let's not forget that in the Expedition to Undermountain book, within a few pages of the listing of magic that doesn't work in Undermountain, we have an NPC successfully using some of that magic that won't work -- while he is in Undermountain. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 14:57:51
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I once had a disagreement with a certain designer about the definition of something. I gave him the 'latest definition' (sigh... the Weave... what else?), and he told me that definition was incorrect, and that his was the correct one.
I then pointed out that this definition was in the latest published source - a sourcebook with HIS name on it! He explained to me that they don't read (all) the material the other guys write...
YUP - thats what he said. Take that and look at 4e - it explains EVERYTHING. 
And BTW, he STILL insisted that that definition was incorrect, and HIS was correct. Makes you wonder why we bother buying material that is clearly wrong, eh?
So the Undermountain thing is easily explained by the fact that that tome had multiple authors... who didn't read what each other wrote.
You know whats weird? I've since come to understand this attitude. I find myself sometimes wanting to ask Ed (or someone else) a question about something, but then I have my own idea for it, and decide I'd rather NOT ask, because I can just move forward with my own stuff and not be bothered with whatever they had in-mind. I am not saying that the right way to go about things, but I at least understand it now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2013 14:59:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 15:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I once had a disagreement with a certain designer about the definition of something. I gave him the 'latest definition' (sigh... the Weave... what else?), and he told me that definition was incorrect, and that his was the correct one.
I then pointed out that this definition was in the latest published source - a sourcebook with HIS name on it! He explained to me that they don't read (all) the material the other guys write...
YUP - thats what he said. Take that and look at 4e - it explains EVERYTHING.
And BTW, he STILL insisted that that definition was incorrect, and HIS was correct. Makes you wonder why we bother buying material that is clearly wrong, eh?
So the Undermountain thing is easily explained by the fact that that tome had multiple authors... who didn't read what each other wrote.
You know whats weird? I've since come to understand this attitude. I find myself sometimes wanting to ask Ed (or someone else) a question about something, but then I have my own idea for it, and decide I'd rather NOT ask, because I can just move forward with my own stuff and not be bothered with whatever they had in-mind. I am not saying that the right way to go about things, but I at least understand it now.
Yeah, I recall Rich Baker and the many versions of the Shadow Weave... It's one of the reasons I hated the Shadow Weave: it was being redefined every time it was mentioned. You'd think that at some point, folks would have sat down and hammered out a definition to stick with, but that obviously never happened -- or they didn't care about invalidating their own prior canon.
But the thing about spells in Undermountain was something that dated back to the original boxed set -- so whichever author wrote that section didn't read the restrictions of Undermountain from that book or from any previous source, and it wasn't caught by an editor, either... Or no one cared about discrepancies -- not just with prior lore, but within the same source. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 Oct 2013 15:05:24 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 16:55:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As far as I'm aware Flamsterd's fate during the 4E era remains unknown. Azuth, on the other hand, suffered a painful death at the hands of Asmodeus at the start of the Spellplague. Of course, if it were up to me Flamsterd's quest to restore Halaster to the mortal realm would ultimately achieve success, perhaps during the events of the (3rd) Sundering.
I came up with a story to address this very issue, actually. I suppose we'll see if/when I get the chance to tell it. 
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 23:19:12
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I can understand why Halaster was potentially deactivated/slain/removed from D&D ... Undermountain is a fearsome magical minefield which sort of promotes and perpetuates the antagonistic-DM-vs-victimized-PC playstyle, especially in the hands of novice gamers. WotC‘s post-Halaster products appear to generally cultivate a less confrontational mode of gameplay, and overall that‘s actually a good thing.
That being said, I agree wholeheartedly that Halaster‘s apparent death was a cheap and heavyhanded event, and Undermountain is just a gaping maw of lost potential without him pulling levers and plotting diabolically in the background. D&D should *never* dispose of NPCs who excel at such stylishly villainous monologue! |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Oct 2013 23:23:45 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 01:34:04
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| Halaster needs to be in Undermountain. Did he not maintain the spells and wards that also kept the city of Waterdeep from collapsing into Undermountain? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 02:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Halaster needs to be in Undermountain. Did he not maintain the spells and wards that also kept the city of Waterdeep from collapsing into Undermountain?
Nope. There was a mythal for that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 21:51:15
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| and yet there has been at least one occurence of Waterdeep suffering earthquakes, flooding, burning, and similar disasters - for a short while - because Halaster wasn‘t manning his post. This implies that 1) Waterdeep‘s status is somewhat precarious, forcing the mythal to compensate, and 2) Halaster‘s presence has enough magical oomphf to effect the mythal ... a long-term or permanent absence might be more than the mythal can maintain. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 22:09:40
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| Maybe Halaster got a copy of Manshoon's Statis Clone spell while one of the Manshoon's was staying with him. Though maybe we don't need a physical Halaster back. I could see multiple "Mythal Ghosts" or spirit things of him rolling around the old halls, or something like what happened to Sylune. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 03:07:04
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| Halastral spectres? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 04:06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Maybe Halaster got a copy of Manshoon's Statis Clone spell while one of the Manshoon's was staying with him. Though maybe we don't need a physical Halaster back. I could see multiple "Mythal Ghosts" or spirit things of him rolling around the old halls, or something like what happened to Sylune.
You know, that gives me kind of a nifty idea, albeit a derivative one: what about having Halaster reborn in a manner similar to the Skulls of Skullport? Not necessarily as skulls, obviously; the mythal ghost idea would work well, too. But either way, a collective conscious, split up between multiple bodies/bones/ghosts/whatever, able to pop up in multiple places at once... |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 14:17:11
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| Now that's kind of interesting. Say some of his soul shards were embedded in things and places. A magical item with his personality. A statue. A door on level 2 that says: YOU SHALL NOT PASS! heheh, well maybe not that one but I could see having alot of fun with this. |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 16:17:33
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"Further, it's a safe wager that Halaster has multiple
contingency spells upon his person to prevent injury
or death. ... Probability also leans heavily toward
Halaster maintaining clones of himself (with all the
above powers and abilities) deep within Undermountain.
Always bear in mind that Halaster is one
of the most powerful wizards in all of Faerûn" - Forgotten Realms Villains' Lorebook pg31
Halaster is known to have contingency
magics upon his person, and probably
maintains clones of himself deep within
the dungeon. PCs who attempt to destroy
him find him returning time and time
again from #147;certain death.#148; He is one of
the great mysteries and terrors of this
part of the Realms, - Campaign Guide to Undermountain - Ed Greenwood Pg 106
So Ed himself hints at Halaster having clones of himself back in The Ruins of Undermountain Boxed Set.
Edited for grammer |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Edited by - Lothlos on 02 Nov 2013 16:19:39 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 16:39:53
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| There's quite an entertaining discussion between Halaster and one of his clones who gets activated early in Hordes of the Underdark so the idea has merit enough for Bioware to run with it. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Undermountain & Halaster's Future
