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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 19:35:29
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I can never understand why in fantasy games females have equal strength to males and didn't look masculine. I know that there can be strong females but they should look masculine and unatractive! Of course female warriors should be much rarer than males because they have less physical predispositions. Still we have "beautiful and slim" but strong females. I understand that they can be nice looking female rogues relying only on agility and female magic users. But female warriors should look masculine and unattractive(and heavy muscled of course)! Something for something. Also it's strange for me that in some sources female drows are bigger and stronger than males, but always are depicted like typical females(By the way they have more testosteron? So why they are not males?).
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 00:48:44
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at first i was just wondering if this was some kind troll post, but to give the benefit of the doubt:
a female does not have to be unattractive to be strong, she does not grow ugly as she builds her muscles
you do not have to be big to be strong, you can also be slim and still have strength
you do not have to have bodybuilder size muscles to swing a sword, fire a bow, etc....
there are lots of examples in the real world of animal and insect that the female is bigger, stronger, deadlier, dominant, etc....
and of course, it's a "fantasy game", if you want to attract those of the female persuasion to buy your product and play your game, making the female characters weak and inferior is not the way to go about it...
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 02:58:23
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| Think of Bruce Lee: extremely strong, but quite skinny. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 03:02:31
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Okay, so I just Googled (actually, 'Binged') 'hot female bodybuilder' and nearly vomited. I was going to try to join in the conversation (and support rjfras' side), but can no longer do so, because I now have to rip out my eyes and punish them for betraying me like that.
Perhaps I should have used the word 'athletic' instead of 'bodybuilder'... 
For what its worth, women can be strong and beautiful... just not on the interwebs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 03:03:33
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Also remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
As to quote:
females have equal strength to males and didn't look masculine.
Strength is not a masculine trait, it is a human trait -in fairness it is every species trait not based on gender at all. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 03:13:28
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Markustay, I must have been typing the same time you were, you posted first.
Still what is beauty clearly is up to the viewer. Tennis players tend to have large shaped though trim legs and build up arms to some degree, a weight lifter builds muscles in different ways.
It though is not a gender trait, development like that is because of the type of strength one trains to use.
Sluban, Also as far as it goes 1st and 2nd Edition had rules preventing females from ever (short of magic) to ever have the maximum strength that a male could have. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 04:43:44
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As to the original question, the model simply does not consider any relations of physical ability scores to each other, other physical statistics (height), or anything else. And in the end, there's no point to actually do it on this level.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Also remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
"...everything else goes to its stomach." Aye.
quote:
Strength is not a masculine trait, it is a human trait -in fairness it is every species trait not based on gender at all.
Clarification for the inhabitants of the continent North America on Earth: we are talking about humans that belong to the primate (mammal) species of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, not "humans" that are sexless shapeshifters having only grammatical trait on "gender" based on the currently assumed fake identity and are rather fuzzy on the biology of most Terran critters and other basic facts of the Sol system (such as it not being a binary).  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 10:51:13
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| As for girls in photos I can only tell that you show only faces (intentionally?) and this faces are not full ugly but for me they are a bit masculine. And do you ever saw female bodybuilder? For me girl with visible muscles(for example at stomach) is unattractive. Of course you can like girls with muscles but they should be portrayed like that in games. To fight with heavy sword you must at last have some above average strength(especially females). So female with some strength can be fighter but will be not the best fighter. As for d&d I think that strength say it 10 is normal unmuscled female body and 12 for male. Above it you are muscled more and more. And above 18 it's beginning to be heavy muscled. So female fighter with 30 strength is feminine looking for you? Half-orcs can have more strength but are more muscled looking. And remember them in bodybuilding and weight lifting best females always will be weaker than best males. And you can't have strength without mass! So if male weight 100 kg (of muscles) female with the same height must have the same weight (of muscles) to be equally strong! I think it will be fair for females to have -2 to strength at start to show this differences(and can have +2 to agility in exchange). It's simple bigger muscles more pure strength. Bruce Lee is muscled not as much as some bodybuilders but he is. Asians(mongoloids) aren't very muscled race. So he don't have more pure strength than some heavier muscled body builder. But of course he base on martial arts in fight not on pure strength. |
Edited by - Sluban on 29 Oct 2013 11:14:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 13:58:55
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Here you go - Linda Hamilton in Termninator 2 - she was ripped for that part.
And although I would have to agree that she does have a bit of a 'masculine vibe' going on there, she is still hot as hell in that movie. If you've ever seen her in other things, you'll note she does have a 'softer side'. In fact, you merely need look at the first terminator movie.
What happens when a woman 'works out' is that she lowers her body-fat ratio, and unfortunately, a lot of that 'fat' we associate with the 'squishy bits' many of us men (and some women) are so fond of. When a woman loses the fat in her face, for example, she has leaner, more masculine look about her... it can't be helped. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Oct 2013 13:59:50 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 14:24:32
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This is more of a General Discussion thread but I'll roll with it.
There is a lot of concern over gender equality in the modern roleplaying game as there is a common perception that girls don't play RPGs (this is of course ridiculous, there may be less of them who enjoy stat-based RPGs but they DO play. I myself regularly play with half a dozen different female gamers). As such, game-makers can't risk presenting gender inequality as an issue. Plus, from a purely statistical perspective, giving the genders of every player race different bonuses and penalties would muddy the waters of the already relatively complex procedure of multiracial character creation.
There is more that could be said on this topic but I don't think it's worthy of discussion, especially not here.
As an aside Sluban, I've read most of your posts and you come off somewhat misogynistic. I understand English isn't your first language but you may want to more carefully word your posts lest you be mistaken for a troll. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 16:46:10
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| Indeed it's more suitable in General Discussion. I started it here, because I wrote all my topics here. As for Linda Hamilton, she is muscled but skinny, and don't really look attractive for me. And I am not misogynist but I am far away for being blind worshiper of equality(not only in this matter but in all). I know that today in all games (and everywhere) everything must be "equal", but I always think logical. I think that normal women didn't need forced equality and understand facts. And rest which cry everywhere about discrimination aren't worth of breaking truth. I like many female characters which are far from stereotypical females. But truth is that females are in average physically weaker and the ones which are strong lost part of they feminity. It's simple and subconsciously all know it but are scared to say it. This blind equality in fact steal feminity from women. They create as sexless characters as they can but paradoxically depict strong females as feminine looking where they shouldn't. So to sum up I don't want to discriminate women in games but show that if woman is strong she look like strong woman and that average woman aren't as strong as average man. |
Edited by - Sluban on 29 Oct 2013 16:47:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 17:33:52
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| I think we need to tread carefully in this discussion, folks. There is plenty of room for offense to be taken, especially when comparing the capabilities of either gender. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Sluban
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 17:44:25
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| So maybe better end this thread? I am not really sure of necessity of it existence. I only wanted to discuss something which made me curious in past. But I think it's can do more harm than good. |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 22:27:23
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yes, just the faces was intentional. here are the same ladies posing, and I think they could all swing a sword with no problem and none of them are unattractive.
The lady on the bottom is one not pictured in the previous pictures, she is a former eight-time World Arm Wrestling Champion.
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1246/q7sm.png |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 01:24:06
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Erik Scott de Bie wrote a great article in his blog on this issue. See link below.
http://erikscottdebie.com/2013/06/27/depicting-warrior-women/
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The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 03:56:10
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Sluban, assuming you're not a troll, you should really reexamine such antiquated, sexist, and plain factually inaccurate attitudes regarding women.
Have you ever seen the Olympics? How about gymnastics? Those women are incredibly strong and they are very, very attractive.
Male and female warriors tend to get a broken, muddy appearance from their wounds, but in a fantasy world with healing magic, it's not surprising that such magic repairs disfiguring injuries as well.
Also, strength does not make a woman unattractive.
Google "strong is the new skinny" or check out http://reelfoto.blogspot.com/2012/08/howard-schatz-and-beverly-ornstein.html?m=1
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 02:02:41
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AD&D 1E Unearthed Arcana (and other sources) presented numerous tables which detailed ability/stat limits by race and gender.
I can honestly say that these never had much impact to myself or my group over years of gaming. For a few specific races, like the drow, the gender-based differences in class/level/ability capacities did indeed make sense - drow society is (or was) fundamentally domineered by priestesses of Lolth. But for the overwhelming majority of pastiche demihuman/humanoid races these rules did not improve the game in any real way. In fact, all they basically did was discourage certain race/class/gender combinations and perpetuate uninspired stereotypes.
We were quick to discard these rules when AD&D 2E came out, recognizing them as misogynistic throwbacks to an earlier era when gamers were socially inept and nothing scared females away quicker than a pretty bag full of polyhedral dice.
Remember that D&D is a game, not a simulation. And the people playing it can change or invent or ignore rules any way they like.
Also remember that TSR went through a bit of a rough patch when people bashed the game for sexual inappropriateness, promoting violence and suicide, practicing demon worship, and generally causing evil and chaos and destroying lives. WotC has wisely maintained a policy of being bland and correct and inoffensive, and while I dispute that female gamers have become mainstream I can anecdotally agree that female gamers are present today while they were essentially myth in earlier generations. WotC would be foolish to make game rules which slander half of their audience potential, much safer and smarter to simply handwave the topic away. |
[/Ayrik] |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 19:40:13
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| I lean more toward fitness model look for heroines, think Trish Stratus before she started wrestling. Maybe Victoria Pratt or Brandy Dahl. Basically Witchblade or Wonder Woman when Michael Turner or Jim Lee (were) are drawing them. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 21:37:24
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Look at the UFC's Women's division.
Since it is only 135 pounds, lots of skinny strong women |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 22:42:30
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I imagine that the peoples of the Realms live a sort of quasi-Medieval lifestyle. Which is to say that they‘re generally forced to be physically active every day - you‘ve gotta cut down trees, haul lumber, chop it into kindling, use the flint & steel, butcher a chicken and tend the fire just to have lunch, before doing anything else like serious work on the farm. Or perhaps you need to instead hitch a donkey to your wagon and ride to the next village to buy dinner at a tavern, spending a lot of time maintaining your ride in the stables.
Yes, some people have access to magical conveniences which save time and effort, some people are pampered with servants, some fat merchants exist in every town, but everybody else has to put some labour into tedious chores just to get by. Our tech-dependent civilization spoils us more than we know, we (men and women) tend to be unhealthy, weak, soft, flabby, underweight, overweight, and generally lazy ... I wouldn‘t be surprised if nearly every Realms woman is “buff“ by our standards. (And besides: ever look at the women on the covers of FR novels, in the artwork?)
European society long prized pale-skinned women, finding them attractive and disdaining tanned women (because, after all, only peasant women needed to work outside) - while today, our European-derive civilization has solid business in tanning salons where women try to attain a “healthy“ suntanned skin tone. In old Thay, slaves were forbidden to cut their hair and so long hair marked one as uncouth and unattractive, while in Cormyr the nobility (male and female) often sport lavish long hairstyles which are emulated as sexy and fashionable. Beauty is indeed a subjective aesthetic preference. Besides, most people (in every culture) eventually take a mate whom they consider attractive for reasons beyond the superficial.
Curiously enough, the original Pool of Radiance novel had a female mage character who carelessly wished she was stronger and (in AD&D 1E game terms) ended up with 18 Strength ... throughout much of the novel she felt embarassed and uncomfortable, initially considering herself grotesquely overmuscular and unfeminine. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Oct 2013 22:54:49 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 13:53:14
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It's like saying a lich should never have the strength to slay a dragon or move a whole mountain, literally, because he/she is just, well, nothing but a bag of bones.
Strength, like almost all things (real or otherwise), is relative. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 18:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's like saying a lich should never have the strength to slay a dragon or move a whole mountain, literally, because he/she is just, well, nothing but a bag of bones.
Yeah but a lich is a mechanical being. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 19:40:49
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`quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's like saying a lich should never have the strength to slay a dragon or move a whole mountain, literally, because he/she is just, well, nothing but a bag of bones.
Strength, like almost all things (real or otherwise), is relative.
Liches don't have nearly the strength required to do either of those things. They have magic (which is even better), but we're talking about physical strength here.
As an aside, I'm reminded of an RAS novel where Athrogate (fierce dwarf warrior) gets casually KOd by a woman. He's befuddled, because he's unaware that she's a dragon in disguise.
Back to the point, even though fantasy doesn't incorporate real world physics precisely, it retains the relationship of strength to mass. That is to say, only so much power can fit within a small frame. For instance, a god cannot manifest the entirety of its power within a normal sized mortal frame without distorting the environment around it. Paul Kemp have described it beautifully with Mephistopheles, mentioning he seemed to take up too much space and have a greater presence than the area could hold (and that was before getting that sliver of divinity).
This is an exaggerated example, but useful I think. Even in fantasy, a larger, more robust frame generally denotes greater strength and power. I would not expect a drow or yuanti warrior to exhibit the raw strength of a human barbarian or a dwarf soldier. Likewise, I would not expect the human or dwarf to have the same level of agility of quickness. That doesn't make any physical build more or less dangerous than another (just as 1 character class is not necessarily more or less dangerous than another). It merely means that they have different advantages and disadvantages, some of which can be identified through physical build. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 20:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
`quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's like saying a lich should never have the strength to slay a dragon or move a whole mountain, literally, because he/she is just, well, nothing but a bag of bones.
Strength, like almost all things (real or otherwise), is relative.
Liches don't have nearly the strength required to do either of those things.
Says who? Last time I checked, Sammaster could have easily quashed a bunch of dragons that he made insane instead and Szass Tam claimed to have slain a few.
As I mentioned, strength, regardless of nature (physical, magical, divine), is relative. By general rule, mere brute strength should not have punched a hole in a powerful magical barrier; no priest should ever have been able to bloody the nose of his patron deity. Yet we've seen this happen.
And so I say, "Ultimately, he who holds the pen decides who wields the greater strength." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 20:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Back to the point, even though fantasy doesn't incorporate real world physics precisely, it retains the relationship of strength to mass. That is to say, only so much power can fit within a small frame.
Mass does not equal strength. A 600 pound male can barely lift his arm, where a 135 pound female can carry a 50 pound bag of rice.
Also as you note it is fantasy and physics is different. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 23:33:11
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quote:
Lilianviaten
I would not expect a drow or yuanti warrior to exhibit the raw strength of a human barbarian or a dwarf soldier. Likewise, I would not expect the human or dwarf to have the same level of agility of quickness. That doesn't make any physical build more or less dangerous than another (just as 1 character class is not necessarily more or less dangerous than another). It merely means that they have different advantages and disadvantages, some of which can be identified through physical build.
More muscle produces more movement, speed, and agility - provided we're talking about athletic people who "naturally" gain sufficient muscle mass from the balance of their physical exertions, not body-builder types who often isolate concentrated focus onto selected individual muscles while neglecting other muscles within the same/adjacent groups.
Huge muscles can indeed move with surprising speed ... but again, many body-builders emphasize raw strength, endurance, or bulk/shape in preference to speed and flexibility. A huge muscled barbarian may never look (quite) as defined Ahnold, and may not be able to benchpress as much weight or flex those biceps as impressively; but he could probably outrun most other warriors who might be larger than he is, have the same catlike reflexes as a master swordsman, and be able to duck and dodge as well as a trained boxer.
You might be surprised how fast a muscled person can move, much faster than those quick and agile skinny weaklings. Assuming this muscle is built through a regimen of rounded kinesthetics, fast movement, and proper emphasis on stretching/flexibility. Power depends as much (actually more) on speed than force, so powerful muscles will be able to contract rapidly.
All that being said, your average large D&D barbarian is probably not quite as large as expected. And a great deal depends on particular body type, biometrics, and actual usage.
Note that reptiles generally have greater muscle density than mammals; our warm-blooded advantages and constant metabolic rates come with certain tradeoffs, including comparative inefficiency in terms of energy use and raw motive strength. Even chimpanzees (and other primates) have greater muscle density than wimpy little humans, although part of their tradeoff is less nervous complexity (producing amazing power and gross movement but lacking in fine motor control). |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 01:00:49
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| You know, when I first started reading this, I thought to myself... it might be worth it to have a bonus for str to men and maybe dex to women. However, the problem I see there is that a woman CAN be as strong as a man and a man CAN be as dexterous as a woman. So, I'm not quite sure how mathematically you'd represent this without going to extremes. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 01:45:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know, when I first started reading this, I thought to myself... it might be worth it to have a bonus for str to men and maybe dex to women. However, the problem I see there is that a woman CAN be as strong as a man and a man CAN be as dexterous as a woman. So, I'm not quite sure how mathematically you'd represent this without going to extremes.
1st did cap female Strength, at the time following there were proponents that females should have a higher Dexterity to compensate. Even in 2nd the demi-humans had different caps based on gender.
One thing however all that should be recalled is it is like one person, no matter gender, that has the skills, stats that are required to be a successful PC. All PCs are rare people that do more then guards, warriors and so on. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Skinny but strong?
