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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 13:07:27
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| You just have to be sneaky when taking on a god. Karsus's Avatar spell is a good example. No need for a battle, just seize control of their source of power. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 13:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Just like Bane being "caged" by Szass Tam.
Which made little sense, unless Bane was just going along with it.
I don't even consider Szass Tam one of the 'heavies' of the setting; there are just so many that can take him down without even breaking a sweat. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Oct 2013 16:25:40 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 13:39:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Just like Bane being "caged" by Szass Tam.
Which made little sense, unless Bane was just going along with it.
I don't even consider Szass Tam on of the 'heavies' of the setting; there are just so many that can take him down without even breaking a sweat.
There were a lot of factors to consider. It was moments after the Spellplague. The gods were in turmoil. Bane wanted to get back to wherever he needed to deal with some "godly" matters. Szass Tam admitted Bane could take him down, but it would take some time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 13:41:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Just like Bane being "caged" by Szass Tam.
Which made little sense, unless Bane was just going along with it.
I don't even consider Szass Tam on of the 'heavies' of the setting; there are just so many that can take him down without even breaking a sweat.
There were a lot of factors to consider. It was moments after the Spellplague. The gods were in turmoil. Bane wanted to get back to wherever he needed to deal with some "godly" matters. Szass Tam admitted Bane could take him down, but it would take some time.
he admitted it would be a slight bit less time and trouble than the length of their conversation vs a bloody nose at worse |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 13:45:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
You just have to be sneaky when taking on a god. Karsus's Avatar spell is a good example. No need for a battle, just seize control of their source of power.
That and so many other factors.
Besides, we hardly ever know what Larloch is really up to these days (though perhaps we'd learn soon in The Herald). For all we know, given the two instances that the Weave collapsed, he might be constructing an alternative Weave, just like the Sojourner's Weave Tap, but hundred times more powerful and stable, and instead of "tapping" on both the Weave and the Shadow Weave, it taps on something else in other planes. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 14:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
he admitted it would be a slight bit less time and trouble than the length of their conversation vs a bloody nose at worse
Below are his exact words, from page 203 of Undead (boldface mine):
quote:
"You see how it is," Szass Tam said. "Yes, you can break free, and quite possibly destroy me in the process. But you'll have to work at it, and I might even bloody your nose before you finish. It will be less trouble and take less of your time to grant me the parley I seek."
Oh, and let's not forget that Bane actually did try to kill Szass Tam, but the latter's wards saved him, to Bane's surprise. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 14:34:23
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| I never liked that scene. It would have been better if Tam would have just got Banes attention another way and sought a deal. Bind a god in a little magic circle? Bit of a joke that. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 14:39:24
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Obviously Tam was the DMs character which used a homebrew ritual to do all this
If Tam is able to do this shortly after the spellplague which should have affected him far mor then Bane why should he have any conern facing Telamont how has a lot more trouble binding Mephistopheles who is far far weaker then Bane? |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 16 Oct 2013 14:41:50 |
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wozniak1995
Acolyte
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 15:56:08
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| Anybody know the release date of "The Herald"? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2013 : 16:46:25
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quote:
Originally posted by wozniak1995
Anybody know the release date of "The Herald"?
June next year. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 01:24:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I never liked that scene. It would have been better if Tam would have just got Banes attention another way and sought a deal. Bind a god in a little magic circle? Bit of a joke that.
rofl Yep.
I think Bane was just messing with him.
Overall, the scene even said when Szass Tam surprised him that it was the look an adult has when a child suddenly slaps them.
Implying he could have taken the adult hand and crushed him there and then.
That and a simple contemptuous backhand from Bane loaded tam with extra power by the god's will |
Edited by - Firestorm on 17 Oct 2013 17:12:43 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 01:37:12
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| I do think it would be possible, under previous D&D lore, to imprison a god inside a magical construct. There are several examples over the years - most of which are artifacts or relics. In these cases I've always assumed that there was at least some other divine power at hand (whether directly involved, or otherwise). Most of the imprisoned gods I remember were weakened at the time. Be that as it may, like most other major changes in the realms I was not a fan of the progression of Tam & Thay. |
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wozniak1995
Acolyte
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 14:07:02
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| This is interesting... if Tam was able to imprison a god within a magic construct than i wonder what larloch is capable of as from what i hear when the two met to exchange some artifacts Tam was apparently really scared of him but i am not sure if this information is accurate. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 14:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do think it would be possible, under previous D&D lore, to imprison a god inside a magical construct.
Most if not all gods in Faiths and Pantheons are imun to imprisonment, so I guess this is only possible if you have some special major artifact which allows this. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 16:36:09
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| Larloch is obviously key in Mystras full return. Anyone fancy a lich goddess of magic? Lol. The way i figure it is that ed has kept him off stage for just such a reason as this. Although with Ao resetting the gods I wonder if he is actually needed for this now. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 17:16:55
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| Larloch is obviously key in Mystras full return. Anyone fancy a lich goddess of magic? Lol. The way i figure it is that ed has kept him off stage for just such a reason as this. Although with Ao resetting the gods I wonder if he is actually needed for this now. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 17:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do think it would be possible, under previous D&D lore, to imprison a god inside a magical construct.
Most if not all gods in Faiths and Pantheons are imun to imprisonment, so I guess this is only possible if you have some special major artifact which allows this.
And who better to construct a special major artifact than Larloch? :P |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 00:48:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do think it would be possible, under previous D&D lore, to imprison a god inside a magical construct.
Most if not all gods in Faiths and Pantheons are imun to imprisonment, so I guess this is only possible if you have some special major artifact which allows this.
And who better to construct a special major artifact than Larloch? :P
Gond :)
lol. Well, the Imaskari did create a field which somehow prohibited Gods entry and thus, inside the field they did not exist. |
Edited by - Firestorm on 18 Oct 2013 00:54:22 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 00:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do think it would be possible, under previous D&D lore, to imprison a god inside a magical construct.
Most if not all gods in Faiths and Pantheons are imun to imprisonment, so I guess this is only possible if you have some special major artifact which allows this.
And who better to construct a special major artifact than Larloch? :P
Gond :)
touché |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 19:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by DennisBane wanted to get back to wherever he needed to deal with some "godly" matters.
The issue is already with Bane being there in the first place. Tamm should have never been able to drag a greater god from his divine realm against his will. In fact a greater deity shouldn't be able to just enter the prime material plane in her true form.
If he had called one of Bane's aspects/avatars it would have been much better.
As it was this was for me a scene where an otherwise entertaining series jumped the shark and I had to lay the book down for some days before I could continue to read.
This also shows the huge discrepancy how different authros thread deities and IMO that's something they need to etablish a clear line so that we have consistency between different novels.
When Tamm can capture a greater god and briefly hold him and is confident to at least give him a bloddy nose if he escapes and at the same time Tanthul is unsure whether he can truly hurt a quasi god at all, then the deduction is that Tamm could easily utterly crash Tanthul
The scene between Tamm and Bane doesn't only effect these two, but gives us meassurement against which we now can rate countless other interactions. E.g. if Tamm can do that to Bane, what could Larloch do to Umberlee?
Personally I prefer Kemp's take on deities, but even if WotC would settle on Byers' take, for me the most important thing would be that they settle on one way to avoid such glaring discrepancies |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 22:12:47
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quote:
Personally I prefer Kemp's take on deities, but even if WotC would settle on Byers' take, for me the most important thing would be that they settle on one way to avoid such glaring discrepancies
THIS
I prefer gods be too powerful for mortals to summon/control or even influence (for the most part). While I can see the most powerful of spellcasters (Elminster, the Simbul, Larloch, Tam) being able to summon avatars of higher powers, slay demipowers, and give lesser powers a run for their money...I have a severe problem with any of them being able to 'bloody the nose' of a greater power. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2013 : 17:09:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If he had called one of Bane's aspects/avatars it would have been much better.
Well there wasn't said that it was no avatarm so it could have been.
Maybe Bane sensed Tams ritual and send an avatar because he was curious. Of course he acted as if Tam catched him by suprise so he holds all the asses in his backhand. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2013 : 17:49:25
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Bane was a fool in doing a 1000 years bargain. For two reasons:
1) You already died once as a deity, and you've been a deity for 1700 years, so you're making a bargain that benefits you (in a very small way if you ask me, 1 soul ...) after more than half your own deific existence;
2) It took the Spellplagued-100-year-jump to significantly advance the timeline, this means that in order to get Tam's soul Bane has to wait 10 (!) more Spellplagued-time-jumps, say i'm a cynic but i doubt the Realms will last until 2385 DR. Unless we do a merge with cyberpunk ("Eat my frag grenade, damn lich!").
Yeah, yeah i know Thay has a lot of Banites now, so what? It was not part of the bargain and being a tiranny that's pretty much the only organized faith that could show up and gather supporters, no surprise it was Banites and not drooling Cyricist anarchists or secretive Sharrans.
All in all it was a show of weakness and stupidity on the part of the god of tyranny. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2013 : 18:31:45
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I have to jump into this discussion and point to the fact that the Realms are not dependant on our measurement of time. They act as they percieve the flow of time. You blend in from your point of view how time progresses but Bane is a deity, immortal, time has no precise meaning for him anymore. 1000 years, that means 1000 years of tyranny if Tam stays in power, which is fully within the desired aim of Bane as god of tyranny. It has NOTHING to do with how old Bane as a deity is.
It was not "stupidity" to claim a whole nation for himself. It increases his power and weakens other deities who have no access to worshippers in that region. It was not a show of weakness as Bane wins in the end, either by the Church of Bane deposing Szass Tam and taking over or by time running out, again pointing at the "time has no meaning for a deity".
While i dislike Tam simply putting Bane in a "cage", i totally agree that a greater deity can not be so easily caged, Bane was not a fool to gain power over Thay. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2013 : 19:06:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I have to jump into this discussion and point to the fact that the Realms are not dependant on our measurement of time. They act as they percieve the flow of time. You blend in from your point of view how time progresses but Bane is a deity, immortal, time has no precise meaning for him anymore. 1000 years, that means 1000 years of tyranny if Tam stays in power, which is fully within the desired aim of Bane as god of tyranny. It has NOTHING to do with how old Bane as a deity is.
It was not "stupidity" to claim a whole nation for himself. It increases his power and weakens other deities who have no access to worshippers in that region. It was not a show of weakness as Bane wins in the end, either by the Church of Bane deposing Szass Tam and taking over or by time running out, again pointing at the "time has no meaning for a deity".
While i dislike Tam simply putting Bane in a "cage", i totally agree that a greater deity can not be so easily caged, Bane was not a fool to gain power over Thay.
Uhm, i strongly disagree that time has no meaning for an ascended mortal with a definite lifespan and i still think that with Szass Tam in charge as lone tyrannical ruler of the nation the only organized faith that could've gained followers was Bane's, with or without the whole magical cage thingy.
But whatever, these are just my feelings on the matter, nothing important, carry on with tyranny, fear, hatred and strife, Lord Bane. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 14:06:30
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Perhaps we're forgetting something very important. It was just moments after the Spellplague. Maybe he didn't just admit it, but Bane was probably so weakened (just like many of the gods) that he (or his avatar) deemed it more practical to deal with Szass Tam "peacefully." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 14:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Perhaps we're forgetting something very important. It was just moments after the Spellplague. Maybe he didn't just admit it, but Bane was probably so weakened (just like many of the gods) that he (or his avatar) deemed it more practical to deal with Szass Tam "peacefully."
Another option I had never thought of... what if the deal somehow forces Tam to return Bane to life if he dies? Maybe even offering up his own shell if need be. Note, I don't claim this as a definite, and I haven't reread back through the article.... but could it be "hidden in the contract". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 16:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Perhaps we're forgetting something very important. It was just moments after the Spellplague. Maybe he didn't just admit it, but Bane was probably so weakened (just like many of the gods) that he (or his avatar) deemed it more practical to deal with Szass Tam "peacefully."
Bane's avatar could have squashed Tam. He merely figured it would take a bit less time and was probably curious as to what sort of deal he could strike with a virtual monarch of a large country.
The fact that Bane already had knowledge of how magic was currently working, and the fact that a simple contemptuous backhand to Tam's face was enough for Bane to dive tons of power and knowledge into Tam's brain is telling. A slap from Bane gave him knowledge that would have taken a long time to learn on his own, gave him the power to raise an enormous army of undead from mere soil, and to summon twice an undead so powerful none had tried to summon it before, not to mention Tam driving the knowledge directly into all his mind controlled Red Wizard's.
Not to mention, despite Bane telling Tam he would continue to let his priests back the council, Bane himself appeared before them and led them astray, further helping Tam achieve his goals.
If a simple Slap could give Tam such tremendous power by the will of Bane, it is not really a question that the god could have dealt with him |
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Idamar of Thay
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 03:42:26
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| The deal benefits Bane more than people suspect. Remember, Zenthil Keep has been destroyed, Cyric has absorbed most of his church and he just came back to life, he must be as weak as a deity can be. Tam offering him a new center of worship is worth more than the knowledge to use magic post-weave and a pitance of power that Tam lost in just a few days. |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 04:36:49
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| People you are forgetting one key thing...the knowledge of how the weave worked after the spellplague is basically a mote point now.Bane's gift to tam wasn't as far reaching as tam had hoped,considering that Mystra has returned.Bane gained a nation for out-dated knowledge ! |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Larloch
