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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 03:57:16
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George made me chortle.
In spite of my complete ignorance on all things 4e, and being penniless and unable to satisfy my curiosity regarding recent (anything in the last 10 years or so) Realms fiction, I'll chime in to say just this bit:
If any race deserves to have subraces, it's tieflings. There are seven different planes they could theoretically originate in, and each of those should have its own range of height, weight, coloration, and other random details. Alternatively, there are several major fiends who could father/mother subspecies. Finally, there are several races which potentially form the bases for planetouched races. Given that we've granted different names to fey'ri and tanarukk, it seems only fair that we recognize the distinctions between the three 3e varieties and future variants based on dwarves, gnomes, ogres, hobgoblins, each of the giant races, and others. Within this anthropologist's nightmare, there's plenty of room for variety. More variety than is found among halflings, who all come from the same plane and venerate the same pantheon. If we're going to have subraces at all, there should be a bunch of different tieflings.
Allllthough... I don't want to see 20 different tiefling subraces in the PH. K.I.S.S. So I'm hoping Tiefling is the race, and infernal or Asmodeun is the first subrace, to be followed by others in the New Monsters sections of adventures and sourcebooks as individuals of those subraces play leading or supporting roles in upcoming stories. If the race header says Planetouched and Tiefling is the subrace, then Luuuucy has some Esplainin to do.
I wouldn't be opposed to a different name. "Tiefling" sounds neither infernal nor abyssal. It sounds like a skinny kid who gets beat up on the playground. I say that as a former skinny kid who got chased around the playground because I wouldn't stand still long enough to get beat up. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 26 Sep 2013 04:11:06 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 04:25:24
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George made me chortle.
In spite of my complete ignorance on all things 4e, and being penniless and unable to satisfy my curiosity regarding recent (anything in the last 10 years or so) Realms fiction, I'll chime in to say this just this bit:
If any race deserves to have subraces, it's tieflings. There are seven different planes they could theoretically originate in, and each of those should have its own range of height, weight, coloration, and other random details. Alternatively, there are several major fiends who could father/mother subspecies. Finally, there are several races which potentially form the bases for planetouched races. Given that we've granted different names to fey'ri and tanarukk, it seems only fair that we recognize the distinctions between the three 3e varieties and future variants based on dwarves, gnomes, ogres, hobgoblins, each of the giant races, and others. Within this anthropologist's nightmare, there's plenty of room for variety. More variety than is found among halflings, who all come from the same plane and venerate the same pantheon. If we're going to have subraces at all, there should be a bunch of different tieflings.
I wouldn't be opposed to a different name. "Tiefling" sounds neither infernal nor abyssal. It sounds like a skinny kid who gets beat up on the playground. I say that as a former skinny kid who got chased around the playground because I wouldn't stand still long enough to get beat up. |
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sagechan
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 05:00:23
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| Its my understanding from Erin's books and the (very few) 4e Realms sourcebooks that it was Asmodeus' ascension post Spellplague that allowed him to co-opt all the teiflings in Faerun. It seems (and I wouldn't be surprised if The Adversary delves into) that Asmodeus will lose his divinity going forward and become just an archdevil again. So given the playtest packet's timing and the assumption that 5e Realms will be shortly after the end of the Sundering, it would make sense that Tieflings are majority Infernal touched descendants of the Asmodeus pact, whereas going forward they would regain their prior diversity, but those numbers would have dwindled in the last 100 years. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 06:59:36
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| Why can we just have both? Why must he an either/or thing?? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 18:39:04
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Asmodeus's ascension to godhood in the Realms is significantly related to the prevalence of infernal tieflings. Over the last century, they have become more numerous. It's not like he *made*all tieflings suddenly become infernal tieflings--maybe, he just made most tieflings born after his ascension be infernal. And in that 100 years, the other tieflings largely died out naturally.
And I don't want to go into the specifics. Read Erin's books.
One might not like that fact, but it is canonically what happened. Dispute that if you like, but it isn't going to not be the case. Going forward, it is possible tieflings will be more varied once again.
And yes, we can and should have all options on the table.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 19:58:58
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I've posted this elsewhere, but for those who are confused or haven't read it (slightly spoilery):
The "Curse of Asmodeus"(in-world) was a step he took to gain the power to become a god (not a thing he did just because he was a god). By abruptly gaining all those blood descendants, he gets a power boost and starts filling out some of those cults. Because it's a curse, it's genetically dominant--anyone who pairs off with a Asmodean tiefling and isn't careful, will generate another Asmodean tiefling. It doesn't change tieflings alive when it took effect, it changes their offspring. And yeah, it changes all the offspring of all the tieflings that curse was laid on, regardless of the progenitor.
The "Curse of Asmodeus" (meta version) was a way I came up with to reconcile the fact that 4e tieflings were suddenly dramatically different, true-breeding, and only devilborn. I was hired to write a book about tieflings set in the fourth edition. Sure, I could have gone for "Everyone ignore the elephant in the room!" but, to me, that is the cop out and that is what would make a crummy story. There were already 4E tieflings in some of the transitional series--this had to be something that happened suddenly and for a reason.
And while I had no way to know that two years later there would be a move to undo things, I left room in that explanation so that people could have their more varied tieflings: The curse doesn't apply to tieflings who are born from lines established after the curse takes effect. So if a rakshasa and a human bump uglies in 1386 DR, their grandchild isn't an Asmodean tiefling, its a kid with one backwards hand and a patch of fur on his back. If you want to have a demon prince retaliate by starting a massive breeding program to outmatch the devils in a Cold Blood War, rock right on.
I'm not going to try to convince anyone to change their minds based on that explanation. For one thing, I think it's much better if you read the full explanation unfolding in Brimstone Angels, Lesser Evils, and The Adversary. For another, it's not my place to tell you what you should like or should forgive. But, as Erik said, it's the canon.
I strongly suspect that there will be both types in the end--Asmodean and Planescape-style. I personally lobbied for it, because ideally, I'd like as many people to be happy as possible and some people really want their Planescape-style tieflings back. But in the canon world, the Asmodean tieflings exist like this. And, as Erik says (and Farideh's presence in the Sundering line-up shows), they aren't going away.
I'm sorry if that upsets anyone. I'm glad for those of you who are happy it means more Farideh books (because let's be clear: if they retconned the Asmodean tieflings into something different, this story stops working and I have to write something else). I'm happy-ish for those of you who are cautiously optimistic and...accepting of those of you who are strictly ambivalent.  And I'm very appreciative of those who trust me and impressed with those who made it to the end of this giant post.
Best,
Erin |
www.slushlush.com |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 22:23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
I strongly suspect that there will be both types in the end--Asmodean and Planescape-style. I personally lobbied for it, because ideally, I'd like as many people to be happy as possible and some people really want their Planescape-style tieflings back. But in the canon world, the Asmodean tieflings exist like this. And, as Erik says (and Farideh's presence in the Sundering line-up shows), they aren't going away.
And your lobbying for retaining Planescape-style tieflings is amazingly appreciated. :D
Having the option for both is the best situation that we can hope for at this stage from WotC D&D. Excluding the Planescape-style tiefling from 5e would honestly keep me from paying attention to 5e in and of itself. I'm a Planescape/Great Wheel/D&D planes fan more than an FR fan.
Yet I hesitate to call the pre-4e tiefers Planescape-style tieflings however. Outside of 4e 'infernal tieflings', the random, wahoo crazy variable tieflings of multiple fiendish bloodlines weren't Planescape specific. That's just what tieflings were when they began in 2e PS. That randomness defined them, and that definition continued on in 3e both on the planes and in FR and everywhere else. More recently if you consider Pathfinder a branch of the D&D family tree, that conception continues in Pathfinder/Golarion as well in possibly more material and exposure than in any other edition prior (with even more crazy variety, some portion of which I can be blamed for).
The abrupt 4e changing of so much planar material and history in order to force fit the core 4e PoL/Nentir Vale concepts into other campaign settings caused problems. It's part of why we're now here looking at 5e. Respecting the game's history and concepts should be paramount moving forward, but it won't be easy with how 4e went its own, divergent way with many things and within the various campaign settings. Moving forward I'm not sure how to best reconcile certain mutually exclusive elements from 1e/2e/3e versus 4e since split timelines or just ignoring 4e for the sake of internal cohesion aren't options for multiple reasons.
That said we'll see what 5e brings, and I hope that it has options for everyone's favorite things. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 00:34:10
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Thanks for the explanation Erin, much appreciated.
I have one question, which you can hopefully answer: when did Asmodeus' curse first "hit" the Realms? Before the Spellplague is the answer I'm hoping for as it helps with "stuff" ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 00:42:06
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks for the explanation Erin, much appreciated.
I have one question, which you can hopefully answer: when did Asmodeus' curse first "hit" the Realms? Before the Spellplague is the answer I'm hoping for as it helps with "stuff" ...
-- George Krashos
Before the Spellplague!
There hasn't ever--to my knowledge--been a specific date given. But it would have to be prior to Asmodeus's apotheosis, otherwise there was no point in performing the ritual and he might not have managed to become a god. I've been working under the assumption it was in the Year of Blue Fire, but it makes sense anywhere from probably around th Year of the Bent Blade to the Spellplague's outbreak.
Hope that helps! |
www.slushlush.com |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 00:50:36
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I want 'Little Nicky' tieflings to be a subrace. Lots of hideous little Adam Sandlers running around. 
In fact, I love the subraces idea... we should have gold tieflings, green tieflings, silver tieflings, dark tielfings (would that be redundant?), wild tieflings, star Tiefings with little angler-fish light-thingies hanging from their foreheads...
Yeah... subraces... why hasn't anyone thought of THAT before? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2013 13:29:17 |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 07:41:00
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-_-' Thank you, Markustay, for that decidedly disturbing idea of yours. Can I assume you were just being snarky? (At least, I hope you were being snarky. Otherwise... *shiver goes up spine* ... oh, it's to horrible to contemplate.) 
Erhem, aside from that, I personally would prefer if they had both (er, all?) types of tieflings in 5e. (That's odd, I could swear I've posted something like this before...) |
Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 27 Sep 2013 07:45:02 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 13:07:13
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Thank you for your insight Erin. It is appreciated and while i support Shemmy, that 'loth is a stalwart defender of pre-4e planar lore that needs applaus, i for one would favor the demon lord agenda to counter the spread of baatezu blooded tiefers with their own breeding campaign, even to the point of potential conflict where tieflings of devil and demon blood waging a war for domination as a small extension of the blood war.
Having that said, more variety is always good when it comes to races and having the freedom to pick is the icing on the cake. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 13:30:56
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Strangely, I completely agree with Lord Bane on all points.
Respect for all previous lore is extremely important, which would also include the new 4e lore. Compromises are the way to go right now (and the feud between the two types is something that will work VERY well in my latest campaign).
quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
Can I assume you were just being snarky?
Yes, I was being facetious.
I just always like to point out the "be careful what you wish for" side of the argument.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2013 13:35:54 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 16:14:54
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A round of applause to Erin. That was a great post and yielded some excellent insight into the process.
This lady knows her stuff, all, and she has been and will continue to be one of your champions on the (relative) inside, pushing for solutions that rely on pre-existing lore and enhance our understanding of the Realms.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 23:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
I've posted this elsewhere, but for those who are confused or haven't read it (slightly spoilery):
The "Curse of Asmodeus"(in-world) was a step he took to gain the power to become a god (not a thing he did just because he was a god). By abruptly gaining all those blood descendants, he gets a power boost and starts filling out some of those cults. Because it's a curse, it's genetically dominant--anyone who pairs off with a Asmodean tiefling and isn't careful, will generate another Asmodean tiefling. It doesn't change tieflings alive when it took effect, it changes their offspring. And yeah, it changes all the offspring of all the tieflings that curse was laid on, regardless of the progenitor.
The "Curse of Asmodeus" (meta version) was a way I came up with to reconcile the fact that 4e tieflings were suddenly dramatically different, true-breeding, and only devilborn. I was hired to write a book about tieflings set in the fourth edition. Sure, I could have gone for "Everyone ignore the elephant in the room!" but, to me, that is the cop out and that is what would make a crummy story. There were already 4E tieflings in some of the transitional series--this had to be something that happened suddenly and for a reason.
And while I had no way to know that two years later there would be a move to undo things, I left room in that explanation so that people could have their more varied tieflings: The curse doesn't apply to tieflings who are born from lines established after the curse takes effect. So if a rakshasa and a human bump uglies in 1386 DR, their grandchild isn't an Asmodean tiefling, its a kid with one backwards hand and a patch of fur on his back. If you want to have a demon prince retaliate by starting a massive breeding program to outmatch the devils in a Cold Blood War, rock right on.
I'm not going to try to convince anyone to change their minds based on that explanation. For one thing, I think it's much better if you read the full explanation unfolding in Brimstone Angels, Lesser Evils, and The Adversary. For another, it's not my place to tell you what you should like or should forgive. But, as Erik said, it's the canon.
I strongly suspect that there will be both types in the end--Asmodean and Planescape-style. I personally lobbied for it, because ideally, I'd like as many people to be happy as possible and some people really want their Planescape-style tieflings back. But in the canon world, the Asmodean tieflings exist like this. And, as Erik says (and Farideh's presence in the Sundering line-up shows), they aren't going away.
I'm sorry if that upsets anyone. I'm glad for those of you who are happy it means more Farideh books (because let's be clear: if they retconned the Asmodean tieflings into something different, this story stops working and I have to write something else). I'm happy-ish for those of you who are cautiously optimistic and...accepting of those of you who are strictly ambivalent. And I'm very appreciative of those who trust me and impressed with those who made it to the end of this giant post.
Best,
Erin
See this is why she is one of my favour authors, she puts that extra effort in making canon make sense, in a fun and evocative way.
I guess you can call the 4e Tiefling Asmodean Tieflings and Planetouched Teiflings. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 02:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
Erhem, aside from that, I personally would prefer if they had both (er, all?) types of tieflings in 5e. (That's odd, I could swear I've posted something like this before...)
I, too, add my thanks to Erin Evans. Nicely done. :)
One possible solution to this, mechanics-wise, is to include tables showing all the options. 'Law' (which devils represent) logically would be the subspecies that has fixed features - if diabolic tieflings are a player's cup of tea, he selects that particular strain, and ignores the tables.
Tieflings descended from demonic life ('Chaos') would be able to use tables indicating a multitude of random choices for a variety of physical features (or the player could pick what suits them). Chances are the grandchild of a succubus (say whatever you want, they are not devils) will look absolutely nothing like a PoL tiefling, neither will the descendants of a nalfeshnee or ultraloth.
Players of PoL tieflings would give up the randomness and variation the tables offer in exchange for a definitive decision on appearance and abilities, whereas other strains of tieflings would have more choices on looks and inherited powers (maybe a +1 CHA instead of DEX or somesuch).
My sole issue with PoL tieflings was their horns. Not that they have them, but the placement of which is absolutely hideous. No one in my campaigns has ever played one (and thank Ao for that), and although I wouldn't forbid it, I certainly wouldn't encourage (or even suggest) playing one either.
- OMH |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 07:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A round of applause to Erin. That was a great post and yielded some excellent insight into the process.
This lady knows her stuff, all, and she has been and will continue to be one of your champions on the (relative) inside, pushing for solutions that rely on pre-existing lore and enhance our understanding of the Realms.
Cheers
*applauds loudly* |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 05:21:29
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| Thank you, kindly. I'm glad that it sounds like it generally works for you all (or at least provides a stable target!). |
www.slushlush.com |
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Tiefling in latest D&D playtest packet.
