It looks like Tieflings have been seperated from Planetouched. Tieflings are now the 4e Tiefling alone and the old Planetouched races like Aasmir, Tieflings, Genasi have been combined into a single race, which they did not show, was only refered to in the Tiefling description.
Sage must have gotten the doors mixed-up again, and he let the Gremlins out (@Sage - the dancing girls are in the one on the left!)
As for the topic... I guess they decided 4e takes precedence over common sense and 30 years of lore. It doesn't matter to me - I will call them whatever the hell I like (pun intended).
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
It looks like Tieflings have been seperated from Planetouched. Tieflings are now the 4e Tiefling alone
This part is true, for the playtest (and may have spoiled part of Erin's plot for The Adversary accidentally), but...
quote:and the old Planetouched races like Aasmir, Tieflings, Genasi have been combined into a single race, which they did not show, was only refered to in the Tiefling description.
...this part may not be exactly as you've stated. Here's the exact wording:
Some members of a similar race, the planetouched, also carry fiendish blood, but it is diluted in comparison to the tieflings’ infernal heritage.
It says "planetouched" but doesn't refer to any specifics. Also, remember it's still a playtest, and things may change.
Also...
quote:Originally posted by Markustay
Sage must have gotten the doors mixed-up again, and he let the Gremlins out
Wooly has been running free and willy-nilly ever since Sage left the door open, it's true, but he doesn't eat much.
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
I am not a gremlin. A pooka, perhaps, but not a gremlin.
Hrm. I am unconvinced. Say something in Irish and curdle Old Lady Vhalahaster's milk.
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
I am not a gremlin. A pooka, perhaps, but not a gremlin.
Do you poo Dark-Matter? Maybe you're a Nibbler with with a hyper-active thyroid.
Bender is Great!!!!!!!!!
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
So there will essentially be two species of tiefling in 5E? A generic fiend-descended random mongrel sort (like in 2E Planescape), and an infernal horned hellboy sort (like in 4E)?
If so, then I personally reject it, just as I reject the 4E-styled version before.
Having said that, it is a fair compromise. I suppose it could be said that hellboy tieflings are a proper subrace with a sizeable population which now breeds true - indeed, it could be said that other distinct tiefling breeds also exist elsewhere across the cosmos, even if none have yet been seen in the Realms. Not a bad way to maintain canon consistency without disregarding previous lore, no matter how objectionable it might be.
I would have retconned the 4e PoL tiefling because of the myriad problems it causes with prior canon or kept it around only as a specific subrace of diabolic descended tiefling, and one much rarer than the 2e/3e style tiefling which have been around longer, across more product lines, and in more lore.
This isn't making me look favorably upon 5e to say the least as far as planar things are concerned.
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
Its hard to really formulate a full option until I've seen the Planetouched race myself. Its like I'm look at half an answer.
I do admit that Genasi, Aasmir as part of what I deduced from comparing what was said and what was previously refered to planetouched. Thier could be planetouched subraces for the far realms, the shadowfell, the feywild and weirder places as well who knows.
Since we dont know what their plans are for Aasimar/Deva and Genasi, I dont really have any idea about what they're going to do. Safe bet they'll be playable races at some time in the future. As for the current tieflings, they're pretty close to the 4e and 3e ones by my estimation. They get +1 to Dex and Int, read and write Infernal, have low-light vision, fire resistance, and can do something cool once per battle in the form of Inferna wrath. Im not seeing the problem here.
I think many people (myself included) preferred 2e and 3e tieflings because there's so much more variation with them (descended from demons, devils, and all other evil outsiders) that allowed players to create truly unique characters whose appearance and personalities based on what they were descended ( either closely or loosely, however they chose). The 4e tieflings are stated to be descended from onlye one source: devils. They also lack the aforementioned level of customization (sorry, that was the first term I could think of) of the tieflings from earlier editions. On the other hand, I've noticed some people seem to have gotten that they don't have to follow everything WotC prints to the letter, and can decide whatever they want for there own campaigns; those who like the 4e and 5e tieflings can play them as they are presented, and those who don't can simply modify them however they choose. That way, everybody gets what they want. (I will admit, that's just my own rather naive opinion, as well as an attempt to keep this discussion from going downhill fast.)
Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 21 Sep 2013 07:59:30
Tieflings are more than just the ones with baatezu blood in them. Wotc can try to justify it all they want, i for one will not agree with them. Just as Shemmy says, the lore prior of 4e has a greater weight and should be considered more favorably than their asmodean attempt and yet again agreeing with Shemmy like times before the outlook for planar things is darkened by that move.
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
I don't know for what they need these specific tieflings, are they still going to use Bael Turath or what's the name? Cause in the Realms, which seems to be the main world now, most tieflings are tanar'ri descended (Narfell).
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
I would have retconned the 4e PoL tiefling because of the myriad problems it causes with prior canon
Note that the PoL tiefling is aware of the prior tieflings and doesn't retcon them. The 4e tiefling in the Realms is explained as a pact/curse upon the tiefling race from Asmodeus. Just like Corellon turned a subspecies of elves into drow.
What a truly twisted, terrifying idea! Much funnier than my concept of Giant Space Hamster warforged. (Er, it is meant to be a joke, right?) I'm tempted to use it in my own campaign, but the players in my group would probably lynch me if I tried.(They'll probably try to lynch me over the warforged, too...)
Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 22 Sep 2013 20:08:02
None of us really know what WotC is going to do with the tieflings. Let's make that clear. It's a playtest packet for a reason, and can still change.
That said:
The 4e infernal tieflings aren't going anywhere. They've been around for 100 years and are now a truebreeding race all to themselves. They're there because of a curse from Asmodeus (read the Brimstone Angels series). Whereas before, we just had randomized mongrel sorts of tieflings, now we have a MAIN tiefling breed. And if they all just disappear, that would be a serious injustice to a really excellent story (seriously, read the Brimstone Angels series) as well as nonsensical from a canon standpoint. Not caring about continuity was what caused the 4e mess in the first place.
Secondly, WotC seems to be making it clear that there ARE other tieflings than the infernal tiefling. And it's been established canonically that there are plenty of devil/demon blooded things that are NOT the Infernal Tiefling wandering around the realms. They just aren't as common.
If you're playing a "tiefling" post 1385, then the odds are you look like an Infernal Tiefling and have those powers. If you want to look different or have slightly different powers or a different backstory, there's plenty of room for that. Telling a player they cannot play a tiefling without horns and a tail is like telling a player they cannot play an elf with dark skin or a human with bright blue glowing hair.
This was the case during 4e. This will be the case during DnD-Next.
I really don't see what people are getting spun up about.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
The 4e infernal tieflings aren't going anywhere. They've been around for 100 years and are now a truebreeding race all to themselves. They're there because of a curse from Asmodeus (read the Brimstone Angels series). Whereas before, we just had randomized mongrel sorts of tieflings, now we have a MAIN tiefling breed. And if they all just disappear, that would be a serious injustice to a really excellent story (seriously, read the Brimstone Angels series) as well as nonsensical from a canon standpoint. Not caring about continuity was what caused the 4e mess in the first place.
Except that for only the 4e PoL style tiefling to become the major, dominant form just boggles my mind. It makes very little sense for Asmodeus to be able to influence any tiefling that wasn't of infernal heritage, bordering on nonsensical when you take into account that infernal heritage tieflings would have been more rare than those of other origin (demon, 'loth, obyrith, kyton, etc) because non-noble female baatezu are sterile. I just can't see how the 4e style tiefling would in a century only become dominant versus all of the other established tiefling bloodlines in FR, especially given the regions with heavy and continuing abyssal and other influence.
Since a complete 4e retcon isn't on the table as an option, I don't mind at all if the 4e style tiefling is one option for tieflings. But given how radically different it is compared to 2e and 3e style tieflings, it's IMO disrespectful to the bulk of the material on tiefers and to the continuity regarding them to force the 4e-style's inclusion as a dominant type. It's the sort of thing that would honestly drive people away from 5e entirely when they're trying to do just the opposite. They need to step back from the more divisive aspects of 4e.
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
Yes, as the official spokesman for ERTA (the Easting Reach Tiefling Association), I can only say that we do not concede that there is a "dominant infernal heritage" in Faerun (although we do concede that Erin Evans is a superior fictioneer), and have called on all 666 Abyssal delegates to the LPP (Lower Planes Parliament) to table a significant amendment to the Tiefling Non-Proliferation Act currently being debated (assuming they can stop tearing each other limb from limb for more than a minute).
-- George Krashos *hiding his horns*
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
I agree that the 4e tiefling isn't going anywhere, I just thought that Tieflings would be a race with cool subraces so I'm alittle disappointed about that.
Still I do understand why, the two tieflings races have nothing in common beyond a lower plane origin. A 3e tiefling mighr breed true with another tiefling, but are more likely to breed with hunans which usually produces a human with a random chance of popping up in later generations and have random appearances. In the case of 4e tieflings they not only breed true with tieflings, but with almost any other humaniods, so a goblin and tiefling makes a tiefling baby, same with a frost giant, orc, elf, human, aasmir, ect... They also have a more uniformed appearance.
Still they can't both be called tieflings, so how does one deal with that?
I understand using the term Planetouched is the attempted solution, but the lower plane subrace will need a name and most planescape pre 4e fans will want to call them Tieflings.
Its so hard to judge things when you can't see them, I would like to have seen Planetouched in the Playtest packet instead of the silly and hugely unpopular kender.
I do agree that Brimstone Angels and Brimstone Angels Lesser Evil rocks and is awesome.
Ah, well, we can just say that Asmodeus exerted his (near) godly powers to remake all *devil-blooded* tieflings in his image. Easy peasy cheap copout ... although perhaps Mephistopheles might whip up a variation of his own for variety.
As for the *demon-blooded* tieflings? They all got stuck on Abeir as part of the 4pocalypse.
Tiefling in latest D&D playtest packet.
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 17:38:30
. (I will admit, that's just my own rather naive opinion, as well as an attempt to keep this discussion from going downhill fast.)
What a truly twisted, terrifying idea! Much funnier than my concept of Giant Space Hamster warforged. (Er, it is meant to be a joke, right?) I'm tempted to use it in my own campaign, but the players in my group would probably lynch me if I tried.