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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 20:49:04
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So... why are elves and dwarves enemies again? Don’t remember ever reading that, but for some reason, I think that’s the general idea! Is it LoTR that have somehow rubbed off on the realms or am I just so way off its embarrassing?
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 21:00:14
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| I could see some dwarves blaming the elves for the drow if you are looking for explanations on elf vs dwarf mentality. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 21:31:56
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To quote an elven lord arguing against the opening of Myth Drannor (in Elminster in Myth Drannor):
quote:
"We also know humans are greedy... almost as greedy as dwarves. And now you plan to let both into the very heart of Cormanthor. The humans will cut the trees down, and the dwarves will snarl for more to feed the fires of their forges!"
Emphasis in the original. He later goes on to say:
quote:
"Humans and dwarves in particular have a way of ignoring or twisting any authority put over them and of defying our People wherever and whenever they can. If we let them in, they will outbreed us, outtrick us, and outnumber us from the start. Very soon we'll be pushed right out of Cormanthor."
Seems pretty clear why at least some elves don't particularly like dwarves. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 21:42:03
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| Not all Elves hate Dwarves and honestly you'd probably find more Elves that hate humans. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 21:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
He later goes on to say:
quote:
"Humans and dwarves in particular have a way of ignoring or twisting any authority put over them and of defying our People wherever and whenever they can. If we let them in, they will outbreed us, outtrick us, and outnumber us from the start. Very soon we'll be pushed right out of Cormanthor."
Seems pretty clear why at least some elves don't particularly like dwarves.
Am i the only one picturing dwarven bards singing Fear of a Dwarf Planet? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 23:06:27
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| Fundamentally different viewpoints, and the typical "us versus them" mentality. I'd not call them enemies, exactly, so much as misunderstood (and hence distrusted) acquaintances. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 23:22:55
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They physically, mentally have different cultures to start from. It ranges from body shape to body hair as far as physical.
Culture one is of rock and earth the other is of trees and nature.
As far as using wood for forges, wood would be only used in coal could not be found and I prose the question of what Elven smiths use for their forges?
Many myths of course had differences between the two before D&D was conceived of at all. Within D&D Dwarfs until recently used little magic, an Elf that could not use magic at all would almost become an outcast (clearly such an Elf would be considered handicapped).
They as races in general have few common interests on which to develop lasting alliances. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 00:49:58
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It is simple, really.
Imagine that you were kidnapped by deceptively beautiful beings and kept caged for their amusement. How would you feel if your captors broke your bones, randomly cut off appendages for gods know what, and reheal you so that you appear stunted and deformed. Add to that their eugenicists tinkering around with your genetic makeup, effectively limiting you to breeding with others of your bloodline.
Thus, if you put yourself in the place of the dwarves, based on their origin, their hatred of the elves makes sense.
As for why elves hate dwarves, put yourself in the elves' place:
You come from a primeval race who only recently became flesh and blood (recent by elvish reckoning, that is). Your rivals, the drachenasi, retained their elemental forms while you were given mortality. Oh, sure, compared to humans you're quite long lived. You used to be more than that. Now, humans are becoming a major power in the world. You are the stewards of the world, not the humans. They exist to fulfill your whims; instead you are a curiosity, feared for your inquisitive nature. In order to understand humankind, you can't forsake the nastier subdisciplines of human biology. Thus it is only natural that you experiment on the humans to understand how they became so populous.
Creating the dwarves was an unavoidable side-effect in your attempts to discover a way to prolong the bloodline, thus regaining a semblence of the immortality you once possessed. They should be thankful for their ability to navigate the world's veins, to see the throbbing heart your people helped the drachenasi create. Instead, they spite you, kill your kind whenever possible. You give them the gift of a longer life and their hate you for it.
What can an elf do except respond to dwarvish hatred with extreme force, to quell their angry spirits? |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 02:50:54
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quote:
Imagine that you were kidnapped by deceptively beautiful beings and kept caged for their amusement. How would you feel if your captors broke your bones, randomly cut off appendages for gods know what, and reheal you so that you appear stunted and deformed. Add to that their eugenicists tinkering around with your genetic makeup, effectively limiting you to breeding with others of your bloodline.
Thus, if you put yourself in the place of the dwarves, based on their origin, their hatred of the elves makes sense.
As for why elves hate dwarves, put yourself in the elves' place:
You come from a primeval race who only recently became flesh and blood (recent by elvish reckoning, that is). Your rivals, the drachenasi, retained their elemental forms while you were given mortality. Oh, sure, compared to humans you're quite long lived. You used to be more than that. Now, humans are becoming a major power in the world. You are the stewards of the world, not the humans. They exist to fulfill your whims; instead you are a curiosity, feared for your inquisitive nature. In order to understand humankind, you can't forsake the nastier subdisciplines of human biology. Thus it is only natural that you experiment on the humans to understand how they became so populous.
Creating the dwarves was an unavoidable side-effect in your attempts to discover a way to prolong the bloodline, thus regaining a semblence of the immortality you once possessed. They should be thankful for their ability to navigate the world's veins, to see the throbbing heart your people helped the drachenasi create. Instead, they spite you, kill your kind whenever possible. You give them the gift of a longer life and their hate you for it.
What can an elf do except respond to dwarvish hatred with extreme force, to quell their angry spirits?
Um, what? Did I miss something here?
My thoughts is that it's a simple case of differing cultures and it's (generally) not so much a case of hatred as of misunderstanding each other's perspectives.
Personally, I don't like how elves in FR have been portrayed (from a historical point of view). They would seem to be one of the most evil races on Toril. The only way I can work around this 'evil' is to try to understand them. They are an extremely long-lived race and, I believe, their emotions are more intense than other 'goodly' races. Thus, they can love passionately but also be moved to the darkest hatred given cause. The elves have watched as their homelands have been encroached upon, their loved ones slaughtered and their culture decline.
A human, being more short-lived, would not see the 'decline' of culture quite so poignantly (remember the elves have centuries to watch as their homes, loved ones, and culture die). It's small wonder that elves have taken extreme measures to protect themselves at times. That doesn't necessarily make them right, but it doesn't, ultimately, make them evil either.
And, for all that, dwarves have more in common with humans and are capable of finding common ground with them more easily. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 03:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
So... why are elves and dwarves enemies again? Don’t remember ever reading that, but for some reason, I think that’s the general idea! Is it LoTR that have somehow rubbed off on the realms or am I just so way off its embarrassing?
Other than elves being complete, you know, elves? And dwarves not exactly staring at them in amazement?.. quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Fundamentally different viewpoints [...] I'd not call them enemies, exactly
So, not as much "enmity" as... "constant mutual irritation". 
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
I could see some dwarves blaming the elves for the drow if you are looking for explanations on elf vs dwarf mentality.
Well, yeah. A country worth of very upset drow suddenly dropping on one's head is the sort of a gift almost as hard to forget as to properly appreciate in the first place.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 03:43:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
Imagine that you were kidnapped by deceptively beautiful beings and kept caged for their amusement. How would you feel if your captors broke your bones, randomly cut off appendages for gods know what, and reheal you so that you appear stunted and deformed. Add to that their eugenicists tinkering around with your genetic makeup, effectively limiting you to breeding with others of your bloodline.
Thus, if you put yourself in the place of the dwarves, based on their origin, their hatred of the elves makes sense.
As for why elves hate dwarves, put yourself in the elves' place:
You come from a primeval race who only recently became flesh and blood (recent by elvish reckoning, that is). Your rivals, the drachenasi, retained their elemental forms while you were given mortality. Oh, sure, compared to humans you're quite long lived. You used to be more than that. Now, humans are becoming a major power in the world. You are the stewards of the world, not the humans. They exist to fulfill your whims; instead you are a curiosity, feared for your inquisitive nature. In order to understand humankind, you can't forsake the nastier subdisciplines of human biology. Thus it is only natural that you experiment on the humans to understand how they became so populous.
Creating the dwarves was an unavoidable side-effect in your attempts to discover a way to prolong the bloodline, thus regaining a semblence of the immortality you once possessed. They should be thankful for their ability to navigate the world's veins, to see the throbbing heart your people helped the drachenasi create. Instead, they spite you, kill your kind whenever possible. You give them the gift of a longer life and their hate you for it.
What can an elf do except respond to dwarvish hatred with extreme force, to quell their angry spirits?
Um, what? Did I miss something here?
My thoughts is that it's a simple case of differing cultures and it's (generally) not so much a case of hatred as of misunderstanding each other's perspectives.
Personally, I don't like how elves in FR have been portrayed (from a historical point of view). They would seem to be one of the most evil races on Toril. The only way I can work around this 'evil' is to try to understand them. They are an extremely long-lived race and, I believe, their emotions are more intense than other 'goodly' races. Thus, they can love passionately but also be moved to the darkest hatred given cause. The elves have watched as their homelands have been encroached upon, their loved ones slaughtered and their culture decline.
A human, being more short-lived, would not see the 'decline' of culture quite so poignantly (remember the elves have centuries to watch as their homes, loved ones, and culture die). It's small wonder that elves have taken extreme measures to protect themselves at times. That doesn't necessarily make them right, but it doesn't, ultimately, make them evil either.
And, for all that, dwarves have more in common with humans and are capable of finding common ground with them more easily.
It's my background for the elves and dwarves in my realms. The drachenasi are basically a combination of the genasi and dragonborn. I got the idea for the elves' cruelty from an old New Orleans mistress who used to do that kind of stuff to her slaves: mutilation, dismemberment, crippling, torture etc. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 09:46:20
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There is the Clangeddin VS Labelas Enoreth battle during the Time of Troubles on Ruathym that surely didn't help.
Anyone knows why they fought? |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 11:17:40
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| Both apparently were less than fond of each other to begin with. Time of Troubles provoked them (like most gods) into wild attempts to get more power fast, and generally becoming cranky on the border of crazy - Labelas evidently more so. His half-baked scheme made enough of noise that Clangeddin noticed and ran into it head on, hammer a-swingin'. Then both shared their private opinions on each other with everyone in the hearing range. Hilarity ensued. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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KacyCrawford
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 12:04:58
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| Elves and dwarves were complete opposites from day one, both in character and in the way they viewed the world around them.Both races loved and appreciated different things and failed to understand each other. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 13:08:19
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They have a deep unabiding fear and hatred of all small people... including human midgets. Their loathing of midgets is so profound that they want to wipe-out the entire human race just to make sure no more are born.
Their good friends, the Halflings and gnomes, are quite confused by all of this....
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Sep 2013 13:08:46 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 13:50:46
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quote:
They have a deep unabiding fear and hatred of all small people... including human midgets. Their loathing of midgets is so profound that they want to wipe-out the entire human race just to make sure no more are born.
Their good friends, the Halflings and gnomes, are quite confused by all of this....
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 13:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
So... why are elves and dwarves enemies again? Don’t remember ever reading that, but for some reason, I think that’s the general idea! Is it LoTR that have somehow rubbed off on the realms or am I just so way off its embarrassing?
They are the Realms original Frienemies. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 15:34:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
So... why are elves and dwarves enemies again? Don’t remember ever reading that, but for some reason, I think that’s the general idea! Is it LoTR that have somehow rubbed off on the realms or am I just so way off its embarrassing?
They are the Realms original Frienemies.
Seriouly though you think they would ally with each other in order to beat back those upstarts, the short lived humans. Guess its good for us that they dont. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 21:06:58
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Some puckish elf snipped some dwarf's beard when they were all having a slumber party on Midsummer's Eve in 1470 DR.
Moradin was not amused. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 21:36:51
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| There's also the old story of dwarven anatomy versus elven. See, dwarven male "appendages" are made more for girth and less for length. Elven male "appendages" are made for length. In the early days they used to try to "hook up". All the elven women ended up walking funny afterwards and could never be satisfied by elven men again, which caused no end of enmity. However, even worse were the number of dwarven women who choked to death. Needless to say, the two cultures did not see eye to eye much after that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1624 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 21:42:43
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| The Elves can't even ally with themselves. |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 00:10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There's also the old story of dwarven anatomy versus elven. See, dwarven male "appendages" are made more for girth and less for length. Elven male "appendages" are made for length. In the early days they used to try to "hook up". All the elven women ended up walking funny afterwards and could never be satisfied by elven men again, which caused no end of enmity. However, even worse were the number of dwarven women who choked to death. Needless to say, the two cultures did not see eye to eye much after that.
Hi Ed! |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 03:27:33
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| *Blink* Is there a rating for posting? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 07:27:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There's also the old story of dwarven anatomy versus elven. See, dwarven male "appendages" are made more for girth and less for length. Elven male "appendages" are made for length. In the early days they used to try to "hook up". All the elven women ended up walking funny afterwards and could never be satisfied by elven men again, which caused no end of enmity. However, even worse were the number of dwarven women who choked to death. Needless to say, the two cultures did not see eye to eye much after that.
Well, now I know why our wild elf sorceress hooked up with our gold dwarf wizard in my group's last campaign.  |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 10:32:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There's also the old story of dwarven anatomy versus elven. See, dwarven male "appendages" are made more for girth and less for length. Elven male "appendages" are made for length. In the early days they used to try to "hook up". All the elven women ended up walking funny afterwards and could never be satisfied by elven men again, which caused no end of enmity. However, even worse were the number of dwarven women who choked to death. Needless to say, the two cultures did not see eye to eye much after that.
This is so true! You think elven women would have a dwarven magic wand? |
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thenightgaunt
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 16:59:59
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I always thought of it as an issue of both races have vastly different ways of thinking and their rift was a result of it.
The dwarves are very detail oriented and elves tend to be relaxed and a bit flighty. So if the two races try to plan co-op events, there's going to be some conflict.
Imagine a recreation of the battle of Halm's Deep but with dwarven armies, the general has planned a complex and brilliant bit of tactical misdirection that will win the day. It just requires that the elven archers promised to aid him be stationed upon the ridge on the 2nd day in order to harry the orc lines and distract them. The elves have yet to arrive but the dwaven general trusts that they will in time.
5 days later the elven army arrives on the scene ready to fight. They come upon a battlefield turned abattoir. The remains of valiant dwarven warriors lay across the ground like leaves in late fall. Looking out upon the devastation the elven king stares out in horror and shock and says "um...today's the 11th right?". "16th my lord" a nearby archer replies. His face pale the king mutters to himself "I don't think 'oops' quite covers this one".
At least that's the way I tend to explain the dwarven side of it to my players. It's less hatred and more a general mistrust turned racism between the groups. Kind of a "you cant trust elves to do anything but lounge about and sing about trees" vs "those dwarves have a stick so far up their butts it's amazing their feet can touch the ground".
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 08:36:25
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There's also the old story of dwarven anatomy versus elven. See, dwarven male "appendages" are made more for girth and less for length.
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
Hi Ed!
Why Ed?  quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
*Blink* Is there a rating for posting?
Oh, come on. Do you have to be so childish? Our illustrous lady bard wrote an entire song on pretty much this subject already. Just sing along... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Elves and dwarves, friends or foes?
