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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Acaus Bellum
Acolyte
19 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jul 2003 : 08:32:35
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| The point is that Lathander and all gods to some degree believe themselves to be perfect. Lathander must because he is the god of self perfection. It is the nature of his portfolio that make him want to remake the patheneon in his own image. Just as Bane wants to rule all Faerun because he is a Tyrant. They are all merely aspects of the balance if what they are doing were not in the nature of thier portfolio AO would intervene or the Greater Gods would put them on trial. I did mis-speak saying he had no ambition. But his ambition is only to expand the reach of portfolio as all gods should do. |
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him float. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2003 : 09:02:35
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I appreciate the clarification, and judging by what you are saying we seem to be approaching an aggreeable position on this. His portfolio provided the desire for his plan, and ambition carried him forward.
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Acaus Bellum
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2003 : 08:06:16
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| But does anyone know where you can find written data on the Dawn Cataclsym. Either game material or novels. The only info I could find are side-bars or in Lathander's description Faiths and Pantheons. |
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him float. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2003 : 08:37:51
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My friend, official information on that particular topic is indeed hard to find. The internet itself has some useful tidbits scattered through several key FR websites. An interesting one to start with here has some information spread throughout several deity profiles.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Acaus Bellum
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2003 : 08:09:08
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| As it happens Sage that tome is in my library. Could you give me page numbers if you don't mind to save me time. |
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him float. |
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Acaus Bellum
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2003 : 08:25:33
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| As I was reading through 2e Faiths and Avatars something struke me as odd. Reference pg 44 Rotten Luck it states, "Before the Dawn Cataclysm there was but one goddess of Luck, Tyche. Also in Making of a Mage Elminster says a pray to Tyche pg 36. Somewhere I have the birth year of Elminster but I can't find it but as a general reference FRCS lists Elminster entering Cormanthor in 241 DR at that time he couldn't have been more than a hundred plz correct me if I'm wrong. Yet, I find no mention of the Dawn Cataclysm in the timeline but I always assumed it was much ealier in Faeruian History. |
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him float. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2003 : 08:41:08
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Reading the entry you referenced on Rotten Luck, I can now see what you mean.
At the time of 2e Heroes Lorebook (1369 DR) it lists in Elminster's entry that he was born more than 1150 years ago. Now even if you give and take a few years from that, Elminster was born sometime around 219 DR. But after everything that has been presented in the novels and such (which granted was printed after Heroes Lorebook), we can hardly believe that the Elminster that walked into Myth Drannor was only 22 winters old.
Obviously there are discrepancies with regards to the continuity of the FR timeline. Therefore trying to place the Dawn Cataclysm within a specific timeframe becomes meaningless, not to mention difficult.
Of course all this could easily be explained if Ed Greenwood and WotC collaborated on a sourcebook or a web enhancement for free release that details this event.
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Edited by - The Sage on 19 Jul 2003 08:43:19 |
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Acaus Bellum
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2003 : 09:39:59
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I found one thing that helps according to Known Chronological Listing of Forgotten Realms Fiction http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/FR_Timeline.asp
Making of a Mage started in 212DR and Elminster was 12 so I assume he was born in 200DR. From just this book and other info Dawn Cataclsym had to have occured between 216DR El's prayer and 694DR first portents of Myth Drannor's Doom FRCS. |
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him float. |
Edited by - Acaus Bellum on 19 Jul 2003 09:48:26 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Jalynfein
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2003 : 00:03:02
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| Read somewhere that Chauntea and Oghma already knows what Lathander is trying to do, but are not stopping him because they feel Lathander might as well try to remake the realms since evil is on the rise. They'll have to be responsible for what happens if they don't interfere in any way, no? Considering Lathander has more allies than any other good god, perhaps he might be able to do something more than when it was the Dawn Cataclysm |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2003 : 03:53:53
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With regard to the decsription of a dating for the Dawn Cataclysm, there are many conflicting references as to a possible date. Mortal utterances with respect to worshipping Tyche should however be taken with a pinch of salt. As with all religions, names, usages and splinter sects/cults/organisations make easy, across the board descriptors difficult. An example in published realmslore on this exact topic can be found in the Seven Sisters accessory (p.7). It talks about the father of the Seven visiting a temple of Tyche in Neverwinter in or about 766/767 DR - way after the fall of Myth Drannor. Of course, I'm not sure why everyone seems so obsessed with dating the Dawn Cataclysm, considering it had no real repurcussions in the mortal realms other than a religious schism and a change in faiths (which no doubt took a long time to sort itself out). Mortal history, what people of the Realms have done through the ages, is of more utility from a historical perspective IMO.
- The Swordsage
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nicostratus
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2003 : 02:02:16
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Well, the importance of dating the Dawn Cataclysm, is that some people have a 'divine interaction' campaign setting, and someone may want to include the Second Dawn, and would like sagely input. That being said, according to 2nd edition or mabye it was 3rd edtion faiths and pantheons..in either case, under besheba's entry (i think it was her) it said that during the Dawn Cataclysm tychewas fed up with Lathander and so kissed him with mis fortune (thus the failing of the first Dawn) but it wasn't lathander's cataclysm that split her. Later tyche tried to pick a flower, couldn't so she cursed it, then plucked it form the ground and put it in her hair, the flower was actually Moander, and it ate away at her with out her knowing. When she met up with Lathander, Selune, and another diety (don't remember whom) Selune seeing tyches corruption struck her, thus splitting her, adn from the husk of tyche tymora and besheba were born...Besheba, after her fight with tymora, then stomed off saying that tymora, lathander, selune, and the other were not worth her time. Thus it wasn't lathander that caused tyche to split, but it was Moander and Selune.
-Nicostratus |
"I ready for goblins!"
::Dude, why'd you eat all the chips?::
::Dude, why do you suck?:: |
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nicostratus
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2003 : 02:05:11
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Now, I am curious as to your specific thoughts on what the Dawn Cataclysm would actually do, drastic or not, i want your opinons. Should i start a new post for that, or would that continue here?
-Nicostratus |
"I ready for goblins!"
::Dude, why'd you eat all the chips?::
::Dude, why do you suck?:: |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2003 : 22:36:11
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it would never happen so it dosent realley matter and it could never happen becos it would be falsh all humans are not god and so. So if all the gods where god then some would die in lack of whorship and of course Ao would not allowe it and the world of faurun could never be a place of perfect peace and love and all that stuff.
And yes since you are new just saying Cyric is the way to go |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 00:30:40
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nicostratus, I actually wrote up a nice little 'report' on another forum answering that exact question. Let me find that thread and post it here. It's a better idea than me just summarising some of the points discussed in that post.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 09 Dec 2003 00:31:51 |
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Dragon Cultist
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2004 : 17:50:47
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While normally I rub my hands in glee when the shortcomings of the Dawnlord and his holy allies are being aired for all to discuss , I feel that as a scholar, I must chime in.
Might I respectfully point out that the text in Faiths & Pantheons *doesn’t* actually hint that Lathander is, or might be, working towards a Second Dawn Cataclysm?
Bear with me as I quote F&P:
“Helm harbors ill feelings towards the Morninglord that date back to the Dawn Cataclysm, when Lathander indirectly caused the destruction of Helm’s lover Murdane, a lesser deity of reason and pragmatism. No doubt the Vigilant One would be chagrined to learn that Lathander has, since the Time of Troubles, been working on some of the incantations and machinations that brought about that catastrophe so long ago…”
Notice that there is mention of Lathander working on *some* of the incantations etc. This has been hastily concluded to mean that Lathander is outright gunning to repeat his past actions. But one can just as easily conclude that the Morninglord is working up something new (he is the patron deity of new ventures, after all) and that it is merely elements of those “incantations and machinations” that the god wants to use again.
Elements, mind you. Not the whole kit and kaboodle. It seems to me that Lathander could be working on a new strategy, and not necessarily involving reshaping the pantheon. At least not in the same way that he once tried.
Further debunking the “Lathander is hell-bent for Dawn Cataclysm II” theory, to me, is the mention in Faiths & Pantheons that:
“Oghma, Chauntea, and Lliira know of Lathander’s plans, but so far, each has remained silent.”
Now why would three very powerful deities of neutral and good alignmens respectively, remain silent on Lathander’s plans? If Lathander had really turned Bush jr. on us, so to speak, then why would other, perhaps wiser (or in any case, less naieve) gods be “covering for him?” That would be out-of-character, I think. Sure, even good gods have agendas. Yet I find it hard to believe that not just Lathander, but several good / neutral deities would be actively steering a course that seems sure to bring a repeat of an earlier catastrophe?
On the other side of the issue, honesty compels me to add this quote, again from F&P:
“[…] Many progressive deities believe that direct action must be taken to destroy evil once and for all, and that no unintended consequences of Lathander’s plans could be as threatening to the world as simply standing by and doing nothing.”
Food for thought- for all alignments.
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"And naught will be left save shattered thrones with no rulers.
But the dead dragons shall rule the world entire..." |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 02:17:49
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Well a reason for placeing silence on such things usually has to do with the phrase: "Not my department." (this phrase is notorious among those of Middle and lower management  ). Personally Good (and reasons for doing good) is dangerous as Evil if done for such reasons.
Now I know Alaundo my wack me with his Staff of Irritate moderator for travelling to another Plane but by borrowing several theories of Planewalkers, it seems that (as we all know) good and evil cannot exist without one another. Yet the deities have a hard time seeing this (since to have totally one or the other, signifies the end of the Great Conflict, and thus no real need to continue existence.. this would be bad). A good theory of this could be seen in a place/demiplane called Serra's Realm. This Demiplane was created by a powerful mage of sorts but she wanted to craft a utopian world, and so it was... sort of... The place could be considered Lawful Good by D&D reckoning, however, a off balence occured when a non-Lawful Non-Good (by birth/creation rather than choice) was introduced. Like a Grand experiment the introduction of the opposite/however slight sped up the degradation... no... corrosion of the entire realms. A realm of Absolute purity can be sustained but only by constant effort of the creator.
Side note:This could be said the same for the vice versa... yet evil seems to be able to stand alone more so than good...
This is Even true with Deities and their realms of power. What ever happened to Amunator's Hold of Eternal Light (or what was it called?), How about Xvim's Home? While many of the followers converted, what about those that remained true to their deity?.
this Could explain why the Deities are so uppity about the Balance *Slight spoiler*(as in the trial of Cyric the Mad, Yet many were ready to condemn Midnight and Kelemvor as well, neglecting duties or pride, arrogance, and fear? You tell me)
More often than Not Neutrality is usually clumped in with good or evil as it tends to bounce around alot... Even Helm. He is the God of Protectors, Protecting the innocent and weak -this good. most of the Time of Troubles ....err... trouble laid at his feet (wild magic from mystra Destruct. Mishanlding of Mazteca... I still have no idea what happened there so if other sages could enlighten me thanx) usually seen as bad....
Side note: If this Murdane (as I have only heard the name mentioned a few times) was slain, and the lover of Helm (a god known for his immobile attitude and need to do his duty... ?which may infringe on Torm...) NO WONDER he's seen as so impassive if not outright cruel...Think about it (the guys even more so). He has not had a lover since the Dawn Cataclysm!!! I say give helm a Break.... I feel for the guy... really...
Granted to Dragon Cultist, for the pointings out he has given us (for which he has my thanks) WHile the the entire Kit and Kaboodle is not what he's gunning for, most would agree that anything he bases upon from this failed venture, while not totally trying to redo it, is dangerous and more than likely will result in the same misfortune. After, even gods while some times make the same old mistakes... Lathander (being to god of renewal, Creativity and new things) will most likely make all new ones  ...
In conclusion.... Hurm.... I really don't know what I was going to say, can't remember what it was that I was going to say... Or even aware that there was something I was trying to say... there is a method to my maddness... and lecture... But I'll be da...rned ... if I can remember what it was... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 16:28:16
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| Wel i for one think he(latander) is up to no god and i have always tought that Oghma was on the good side of the balance. |
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ClericOfLathandar
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 19:27:02
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| ok as you can tell by the name I am a little bit towards one side on this issue. I would like to see LAthander succedd in his endever, but we all know that Aeo will never let that happen. Evil being removed would be quite nice, but once again Aeo will NEVER let good take over as he likes the balance between them. Maybe some day I can be one of his high clerics but for now who cares. It's just fun being an undead hunter. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 20:17:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Acaus Bellum
As I was reading through 2e Faiths and Avatars something struke me as odd. Reference pg 44 Rotten Luck it states, "Before the Dawn Cataclysm there was but one goddess of Luck, Tyche. Also in Making of a Mage Elminster says a pray to Tyche pg 36. Somewhere I have the birth year of Elminster but I can't find it but as a general reference FRCS lists Elminster entering Cormanthor in 241 DR at that time he couldn't have been more than a hundred plz correct me if I'm wrong. Yet, I find no mention of the Dawn Cataclysm in the timeline but I always assumed it was much ealier in Faeruian History.
Page 264 of the FRCS speaks of the Dawn Cataclysm causing schisms in the church of Tyche, which happened in 8th century DR. So that's any time from 700 to 799 DR.
But, it's said in other sources that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the fall of Myth Drannor, which happened in 714 DR. If that is true, then the Dawn Cataclysm had to have happened before then, so it was any time between 700 DR and 714 DR. You could even back that up a bit further, since the attacks that lead to Myth Drannor's fall began in 712 DR... |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 04:28:46
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| I would like to see a novel about the Dawn Cataclysm,and add it to the Avatar Series with the Return of Bane. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 05:25:45
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| From what I've read, the Dawn Cataclysm was originally something that someone just slapped onto a timeline -- it wasn't originally in any Realmslore. But it caught people's attention, so they (TSR/WotC) added a bit more detail to it, and then decided they weren't gonna go any further with it. |
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Nephilim
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 12:44:20
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I'd like to come back to a point made earlier that I think got confused by an issue in semantics. 
quote:
Originally posted by Acaus Bellum
I want to point out that Lathander has no ambition. The reason he thinks he is perfect is because he is a god and the god of self perfection. The reason he thinks the pantheon needs renewed is because he is the god of renewal and he wants to do it in his image because he as the god of perfection thinks he is perfect. He is just living up to his portfolio. As to the Mystra-Shar conflict the result should be that Mystra once again becomes god of all magic and the Weave becomes whole again and Mystra becomes true neutral(no insanity). The reason the present and previous Mystra were both losing themselves is because the were not living up to they're portfolios.
I think if we substitue the word 'choice' for 'ambition' it makes more sense. A god is not a god because he/she believes in something. A god is the embodiment of the concepts covered by its portfolio. Mystra doesn't just believe in magic, she is magic. Likewise Lathander is Self-Perfection, Lathander is Renewal. A god is as much compelled by his portfolio as he is restricted by it, choice (or ambition) have little to do with this, a god simply behaves according to his/her nature. Only mortals truly have free-will, as a fallen celestial, i know this to be true. 
The effect of all this is that because Lathander *knows* his plan was perfect and because he *knows* renewal is necessary, he is compelled by his very nature to try again.  |
ooops. |
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Nephilim
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 13:23:11
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My theory on godhood also provides an explanation for the recent rise in the numbers of Chosen across the realms. The gods are simply realising what Mystra has know all along. By imparting a sliver of their divine essence to a mortal, a god gains a pseudo-avatar that still has complete free-will!
The Chosen can do whatever he likes, even acts against his own alignment (which a god could never do) if necessary, so long as he beleives his actions are in the best interests of the deity. If the god doesn't like what the Chosen is doing he can simply revoke the Chosen status. |
ooops. |
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Manix
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2005 : 05:01:54
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I know this is an old topic but with the release of LEoF I am thinking starting Lathander's Second Dawn. In my game I am playing a follower of At'ar (Bedine belief). I will soon run them through the rebirth of Selune's Nethrese city. This will be the wake up call for Lathander and he will start his second dawn. I am planning on having this start the next Gods War. The Gods will basically be brought back into the realms in a physical form (aka no avatars). They will have thier levels but not thier 20 levels in outsider. So they will be epic yet mortal. Some gods will probably die, and some may come back to life. In the end I might have the original Nethrese god of the sun assume his own thrown.
Any ideas to help me with this plot would help.
Manix
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2005 : 08:04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Manix
The Gods will basically be brought back into the realms in a physical form (aka no avatars).
So these will be the actual gods themselves?
You do realise that should any of them die, they will be completely destroyed since they no longer have access to their planar domains. They'll also be weaker than they would be in their homeplane, and each of their deaths are likely to be more explosive (and expansive) than the deaths of the avatars during the Time of Troubles.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2005 : 18:49:53
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| There's also the problem of the Weave. We all remember last time what happened when the Goddess of Magic herself was trapped in a physical form... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Manix
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 02:31:52
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I know that gods will die, places on Faerun will forever be changed, but the guys that I gm for have been playing since the early 90's and I think it is time for them to change the face of the realms, then again they might decide to do nothing.
Manix
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Lathander's Second Dawn
