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Originally posted by Ty

I personally wonder how the tri-partite Lathander/Amaunator/Myrkul thing may play into this.

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Originally posted by Ty

Well... no. And yes. Originally, his portfolio did include dusk.

As I recall Eric Boyd looked at it (I think it was him at least ) there are three aspects to the "sun god" of the Realms. One is morning, the second is noon/afternoon and the third is of course dusk/night. I recall the image of a three sided pyramid (or a four sided dice) sitting on a rotating plate for instance. If you looked directly forward, and an angle perpendicular to the center of the pyramid, as the plate spun you would alternatively see one or two of the faces of the pyramid, but never all three.

Thus, if you place the phases of the sun onto the pyramid, you have morning followed by afternoon followed by dusk, followed by morning, afternoon, dusk, morning, afternoon, dusk, ad infinitum. It was then explained (this I recall was a hypothesis) that you could have a god of the dusk and a god of the morning at the same time (Myrkul and Lathander), but eventually dusk would fade to completely morning (Lathander). As the plate spins, you see two faces of the pyramid again, morning and afternoon (Lathander and Amaunator). Let it spin more and you'll have just afternoon (Amaunator). Keep going and we have afternoon and dusk (Amaunator and Myrkul).

What's ironic is that this theory of the ascendancy of the god of the sun holds true according to the realms history. Dusk wasn't part of Jergal's original portfolio during the time of Amaunator (the first of the three gods we know of relating to this theory). Amaunator is the only sun god. Over time, Myrkul arises as Amaunator dies. Someone else did the timeline here and I *think* it worked out roughly. Then, we have Myrkul and Lathander coming 'round. Now, we only have Lathander, with a hint of the return of Amaunator.

Again, not my theory, but the one postulated by certain Realms authors as I understand it. Which we all know of course could be patently absurd.

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Originally posted by Ty

I'm not fond of Myrkul's inclusion into the theory, but it does work from a purely mechanical perspective. Of course, we'll never know about the origin of Myrkul's ascendancy to divinity or even the timing of his acquisition of the portfolio of dusk. Of course, the more I think about it now, it could have been Jergal as the original holder of dusk (without a corresponding acknowledgement in the Netheril boxed set), but again, that's speculation. Jergal alone, with all his portfolio's was a much stronger deity than any individual god such as Bane, Bhaal, or Myrkul. Perhaps his passing off of certain portfolio's served as the catalyst for the resurgence of the god of Morning.

I'm not so sure I'd use the term "morph" though. I view it more as a matter of waxing and waning from birth to death. You can then have two present with one slowly dying (or passing to obscurity) and the other slowly gaining strength. If you examine the "gap period" between Amaunator and Lathander, you'll probably find it to be a very short gap. Similarly, if you narrow down the period of Amaunator's death, I'm laying odds that Lathander arose shortly thereafter.

Much to ponder and I certainly don't have the answers. I merely question whether a hypothesis advanced regarding the waxing/waning of the sun god is tied to the activities of Lathander moving forward in time. Questions, questions...

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Originally posted by Ty

Mrykul's inclusion into that may be faults in my own recollection of the theory Wooly. I have a tendency to mash things together. I premise his inclusion on his original portfolio inclusion of dusk and that's what I recall the original theory espousing. I of course, could be wrong and to be honest, I wish I knew for the life of me where I thought I read that.

As for Amaunator and Lathander not being around at the same time, maybe this will help a bit.

Start: Morning alone.

Step 1: Morning fades to rising Noon/Afternoon.

Step 2. Noon/Afternoon alone.

Step 3: Noon/Afternoon fades to rising Dusk.

Step 4: Dusk Alone.

Step 5: Dusk fades to rising Morning.

Step 6: Morning alone (cycle repeats).

Now, at the time of Netheril, the earliest dating I've found for a god holding the portfolio related to the cycles of the sun, we have Amaunator for certain. Jergal may or may not have had dusk. Thus, at the time of Netheril, we at least had the presence of Step 2. If Jergal had dusk as a portfolio, then we're at Step 3.

Then we move on to Netheril falling, and Amaunator suffering an abrupt drop in worship and eventually, he dies from lack of worship. No set time is given for that death. However, we also have Myrkul rising I believe somewhere between 200 DR and 700 DR. I am extrapolating this from someone else's analysis of the rise of Bane as a power. I assume that Myrkul, as one of the trio, followed a similar "arc" in his rise to divinity if you would.

Now, assuming Amaunator lingers for a time, say three or four hundred years before ultimately kicking the bucket, we have, probably, an overlap of time where Amaunator is pathetically weak and Myrkul is just starting to ascend. Then, we hit Step 4. This is a weak spot in my analysis since I have no clue as to when Lathander ascended to divinity but we find no real mention of him in the history of Netheril or other cultures.

I am left to assume that he must have arisen a short time after Amaunator's ultimate demise, and shortly after Myrkul achieved his divinity. This completes Step 5. Over time, Myrkul waxes and then wanes and he dies during the Time of Troubles. Worshippers carry on for a few decades but for all intents and purposes, he is dead, while Lathander waxes. This moves us to Step 6. Lathander is the only god holding the portfolio related to the cycles of the sun, and is the current status of things.

Now, what I wonder is if the Second Dawn Cataclysm hinted at in Faiths and Pantheons will render Step 1 or 2 "in play". I personally think this may be hinted at (or at least the stage set for it) after reading information on the Sunmasters in Lost Empires of Faerun. Clearly we're at Step 6. Are the Sunmasters the start of Step 1 and the Second Dawn Cataclysm building up will yield a full demise of Lathander and the ascendancy of a god with the noon/afternoon aspect under Step 2? That's my only postulation really.

This is of course, my musings on it. Under the stages listed above, Amanautor and Lathander can only be simultaneously "alive" during Step 1. From the looks of past cycles, the stages where two gods are alive seem much longer than the stages where only one aspect of the cycle of the sun is alive. It also makes sense if you go back to the Pyramid example. Seeing only one face of the pyramid as it rotates has a negligble time period in comparison to when you can see two sides.

At the time of Amaunator in Netheril, you couldn't have had Lathander and Amaunator alive at the same time. The aspect of Morning's time had long passed. Prior to the recorded history of Netheril, it certainly was possible, but we just don't have the historical information from that period laid out quite as well for us to accurately state anything about it. To any extent, it's an interesting theory, but again, its just a theory until the game designers make it so.

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