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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Oct 2002 : 14:58:48
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For those who have a copy of the 3e Faiths and Pantheons product, I would invite them to read the entry of Lathander. It seems that the Morning Lord is preparing for another Dawn Cataclysm.
The original Dawn Cataclysm happened before the fall of Myth Drannor. Lathander tried to reshape the pantheon once before into his own image and ideals, however he failed. That failure, the Dawn Cataclysm is seen as a herald of Myth Drannor's fall, and had some other side effects.
For those that have already read the entry, any ideas on what this might get the world into?
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2002 : 18:47:08
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Nothing good, that's for sure. Most likely it will lead to conflicts between the good and nuetral powers, allowing the evil powers to make gains. There are some interesting possible scenarios centered around the temple of Lathander in Shadowdale, for instance: The Dalesmen become fractured along religious lines, and the Zhents take advantage.
I need to check my sources for other major Lathandar temples...Shar is sure to come up with some schemes as well. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2002 : 16:28:33
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| Re-reading the Lathander entry, I think Lathander will attempt some complicated ritual that involves the unwitting actions of several dieties. The ritual will be directed against Shar, possibly regarding the Shadow Weave. This would involve Mystra and the Shade enclave to a large extent. Beshaba's curse (see the third book of the Finder's Bane trilogy) is still in force, so he's already working at a disadvantage due to his estrangement from Tymora (again, check the third book). Shade Enclave could come tumbling down, Mystra (check her entry) could absorb the Shadow Weave, switch to CN alignment, and exhibit symptoms of insanity, and the Zhents could launch a mass invasion of the Dales. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2002 : 16:31:50
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| ...and there could be a Shar/Cyric alliance to combat a Lathander/Mystria alliance. That's all for now... |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2002 : 16:50:21
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| I'm unfamiliar with the 'Finder's Trilogy', could you post a summary of Beshaba's Curse in this discussion, it might help 'divine' a potential outcome of Lathander's plans. So far most of your ideas seem plausible, though I'm not so sure if Mystra would go 'insane'. With Shar being involved and Mystra, Selune can't be far away. Technically Mystra is part of Selune, or her daughter depending on viewpoint. |
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Jeffrey Williams
Acolyte
USA
45 Posts |
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Jeffrey Williams
Acolyte
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2002 : 10:19:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
I'm unfamiliar with the 'Finder's Trilogy', could you post a summary of Beshaba's Curse in this discussion, it might help 'divine' a potential outcome of Lathander's plans. So far most of your ideas seem plausible, though I'm not so sure if Mystra would go 'insane'. With Shar being involved and Mystra, Selune can't be far away. Technically Mystra is part of Selune, or her daughter depending on viewpoint.
Ichythu Xvim (Bane before 3E) pushed or rather tricked Lathander into reintegrating Tymora and Beshaba in Tyche once again. If Xvim had succeeded. both deities would have been destroyed and Xvim would had their portifolios. That's about much as I know about Lathander's recent activities.
As for the weave, when Mystra finds out that Shar is treading on her portfolio, especially empowering shadow mages, she is going to be POed. And I doubt the insanity clause myself, Mystra, if anything will repair more damage to the weave and begin chaparoning shadow mages once more. With a little help from Selune and Azuth too.
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Geoffrey Mordraith, Sage, Cleric of Helm, Bearer of the Morning Star
devilboy@anv.net
www.bigbluepigeon.blogspot.com
www.thefourthportal.blogspot.com |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2002 : 10:20:22
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Most likely, though in the initial phase IMO the gods would probably try to fight it out on the outer planes rather then on Toril. The effects of what that 'godly mud wrestling' would have on Faerun would most likely manifest itself in churches, sects and (un)holy orders taking to arms and start the opening battles of such a war.
Then as the interests of their worshippers are in danger, the deities might manifest themselves again on the surface of Faerun and start involving themselves on the 'mortal' front as well.
Rifts, as described in a previous post, like in the Dales could very well be the festering points of such 'gods war'. Darkhold, Amn, the drow in and under Cormanthor, Chessenta/Unther and Thay/Mulhorand are also likely points where such conflicts might erupt. On top of that sages also seem to think Faerun is due another Orc-horde...
Hmmm... we might be facing ome dark and dire times on Abeir-Toril. |
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Jeffrey Williams
Acolyte
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2002 : 10:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Most likely, though in the initial phase IMO the gods would probably try to fight it out on the outer planes rather then on Toril. The effects of what that 'godly mud wrestling' would have on Faerun would most likely manifest itself in churches, sects and (un)holy orders taking to arms and start the opening battles of such a war.
Open and armed warfare in cities across Faerun in violation of the law. Zealots removing innocents at swordpoint and executing for ill-percieved blasphemies. Lynchings, riots, burning buildings and such, like England and the Catholic/Protestant civil wars. Let's not limit a fight in the streets alone. It wouldn't surprise me if a few avatars dropped in Faerun to settle some differences.
quote:
Rifts, as described in a previous post, like in the Dales could very well be the festering points of such 'gods war'. Darkhold, Amn, the drow in and under Cormanthor, Chessenta/Unther and Thay/Mulhorand are also likely points where such conflicts might erupt. On top of that sages also seem to think Faerun is due another Orc-horde...
Yes but from where? The only source that could support an orc horde I can think of is the Underdark. I wonder if the Dwarves are getting nervous again.
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Geoffrey Mordraith, Sage, Cleric of Helm, Bearer of the Morning Star
devilboy@anv.net
www.bigbluepigeon.blogspot.com
www.thefourthportal.blogspot.com |
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Ditalidas
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
127 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2002 : 13:25:35
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I really hope Mystra will not go insane. If Mystra goes insane... magic will go insane... I think fighter or rouge would become a save profession...
I will look into this matter a bit more and maybe I can come up with some ideas myself. But I must at least admit, this is a very interesting discussion.
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'All that is' is also 'All that is not' for the one cannot exist without the other.
Sweet Water and Light Laughter |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2002 : 16:57:54
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| I think Mystra would go (partially) insane, but the insanity would only be temporary. I'm basing this on the nature of the Shadow Weave and its effects on mortals without the "protection" of Shar. Mystra is a God, but she would be taking in all of the Shadow Weave, not the limited portion mortals are able to access. After she recovers, her alignment would probably become Nuetral or Lawful Nuetral. Check out the novel about the Shadow Weave user in Chessenta (I forget his name but he's mentioned in the Forgotten Realms 3e book) for more details on the impact the Shadow Weave has on its users. Mystra will have to make similar adjustments, because she will also seek to use both Weaves simultaniously (the only way to continue drawing on the regular Weave after using the Shadow Weave). |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2002 : 17:05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
With Shar being involved and Mystra, Selune can't be far away. Technically Mystra is part of Selune, or her daughter depending on viewpoint.
I agree, and Selune would probably be instrumental in Mystra regaining her sanity (if indeed she goes insane). |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2002 : 17:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
I'm unfamiliar with the 'Finder's Trilogy', could you post a summary of Beshaba's Curse in this discussion, it might help 'divine' a potential outcome of Lathander's plans.
Its pretty basic, there is a much higher propensity than normal for things to go wrong untill the magic wears off or Tymora forgives Lathander. The original Tyche laid a similar curse on him during the original Cataclysm, with bad results. Lathander is apparently incapable of learning from past experience...
Any PC's who are adventuring according to Lathander's design would probably have a bad time of it, as well. |
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Jeffrey Williams
Acolyte
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2002 : 20:33:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ditalidas
I really hope Mystra will not go insane. If Mystra goes insane... magic will go insane... I think fighter or rouge would become a save profession...
I will look into this matter a bit more and maybe I can come up with some ideas myself. But I must at least admit, this is a very interesting discussion.
I doubt Mystra will ever go insnae even temporary myself. I think AO, the highfatehr of the Gods would have some things to say to Shar if he ever found out wht the Daughter of Darkness is doing. Mystra, to some extent is the Weave and the Weave is her. I still dispise the Shadow Weave. Sean K. Reynolds pretty much ignored what the Weave was and pitched any eariler edition works in the trash can. His explination is very weak at best and used to support the weeak ideas of Shade and the Shadovar. I wonder if any one on the list has read the Arcane Age supplements.
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Geoffrey Mordraith, Sage, Cleric of Helm, Bearer of the Morning Star
devilboy@anv.net
www.bigbluepigeon.blogspot.com
www.thefourthportal.blogspot.com |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 09:26:45
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| May I know what really happened during the Dawn Cataclysm? As far as I know, Moander corrupted Tyche and someone split her in half to form Tymora and Beshaba. So what was Lathander's role in the whole thing? What did he do or what was his aim to bring the Dawn Cataclysm and what were the aftermath/implications? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 13:28:03
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Leona said -
quote:
May I know what really happened during the Dawn Cataclysm? As far as I know, Moander corrupted Tyche and someone split her in half to form Tymora and Beshaba. So what was Lathander's role in the whole thing? What did he do or what was his aim to bring the Dawn Cataclysm and what were the aftermath/implications?
Basically Lathander attempted to reshape the entire Realms pantheon in his own image, and ideals. This cataclysm (which is a catastrophe second only to the Time of Troubles) sparked off a major divine struggle between the gods. Lathanders failure however caused great troubles for the Realms. Several deities were destroyed, as well as some influential and considerably powerful outsiders. As if this wasn't enough, the cataclysm also led to the destruction and collapse of many theocracies, and is said by some to have set the stage for the fall of Myth Drannor.
Also, Lathander has come to believe that the only reason his plans failed and the Dawn Cataclysm occured was because of spies of Shar corrupting his efforts.
Murdance - a lesser deity of reason and pragmatism was also destroyed as a result of the cataclysm (she was also Helm's lover)
I hope that's what you were looking for.
Good learning...
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 15:55:25
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How did Lathander tried to reshape the pantheon? Using what methods? And how did he fail?
At least in the Prince of Lies, Cyric was shown that he was creating the Cyrinishad, his plan was to read to the major gods in Cynosure and they would convert to his belief. It was shown that the Cyrinishad could work on gods (Mask, Cyric himself) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 07:09:02
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The books (Faiths and Pantheons and FRCS) don't go into to much detail about the "Dawn Cataclysm", especially not mentioning specific details about HOW he tried to reshape the pantheon - only that he did.
Also, I believe I already stated how the reshaping failed and that was mainly due to spies of Shar corrupting his efforts. Again details surrounding this are not to specific. And as Mr Krashos said in another post (at least I think it was him), trying to find complete details about the Dawn Cataclysm would require a good amount of luck.
And as you said Leona, the events in Prince of Lies clearly detailed the events giving the reader an accurate portrayal of the series of events of Cyric and the Cyrinishad.
Perhaps WotC should publish a novel based around the "Dawn Cataclysm", or at least release some updated source material.
In the end, I suppose you could just create some background information yourself, if you plan to use the events in a campaign.
Anyway that's all the details I could find, hope it helps.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 07:29:16
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| About the Shar spies disrupting Lathander. I have an alternative to that. Reading the entry under Tymora in F&P, it shows that Tyche wantonly kissed Lathander with misfortune on Lathander as he neglected her during the Dawn Cataclysm. It could be that curse that caused the Dawn Cataclysm to fail. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 07:45:17
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That's certainly an interesting alternative, and one that I think deserves more attention. Perhaps all of the Sages here could craft an alternative theory about what precipatated the downfall of Lathander's grand plan.
I think it would make some great fan-created material.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 08:43:10
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Lathander has always come across as the blindly idealistic type of god. He believes so fully in his ethos that he cannot fathom any other way of being, as opposed to gods like Tyr and Mystra, who typically portray a certain awareness of their fellow gods' varrying points of view. Lathander, thus, behaves very 'dangerously', acting in ways that benefit him, not necessarily the Realms. The Dawn Catacylsm is a great example, because it was essentially destined to fail, and I find it hard to believe a god could be ignorent of the problems failure would cause for Toril. In any case, Lathander will probably try again, and fail. And it will probably be worse than last time, and maybe worse than the Time of Troubles. Being short-sighted seems to be part of Lathander's dogma.
As for Mystra and Shar, I can only seeing that come to a bad end, and I believe Mystra will likely win. Either Mystra and Shar will duke it out, and with all her allies Mystra will destroy Shar, or Ao will step in and mette out things before a Godswar erruptes. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2003 : 16:37:31
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Edain Shadowstar said -
quote:
Lathander has always come across as the blindly idealistic type of god. He believes so fully in his ethos that he cannot fathom any other way of being, as opposed to gods like Tyr and Mystra, who typically portray a certain awareness of their fellow gods' varrying points of view. Lathander, thus, behaves very 'dangerously', acting in ways that benefit him, not necessarily the Realms. The Dawn Catacylsm is a great example, because it was essentially destined to fail, and I find it hard to believe a god could be ignorent of the problems failure would cause for Toril. In any case, Lathander will probably try again, and fail. And it will probably be worse than last time, and maybe worse than the Time of Troubles. Being short-sighted seems to be part of Lathander's dogma.
This is indeed a good point. It seems that Lathander was too blinded by his own ambition to see the larger effects such an attempt to reshape the pantheon would create. It is therefore feasible to believe that perhaps the spies sent by Shar didn't actually corrupt Lathander's efforts, they just exploited a weakness that was already apparent in Lathander's thinking.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 05:34:37
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| Frankly, Sgae, I would not even call it ambition, it is even blinder than that, more like he cannot percieve a world where his will is not right, and the way things should be. But, that's just my opinion. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 07:56:21
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Edain Shadowstar said -
quote:
Frankly, Sgae, I would not even call it ambition, it is even blinder than that, more like he cannot percieve a world where his will is not right, and the way things should be. But, that's just my opinion.
While I can see your point Edain, in order to believe that 'your' way of doing things is the 'right' way, for instance, Lathander's attempt to shape the pantheon in his own image, and his ideals, you would need a certain degree of personal ambition to want to carry that plan out. The fact that Lathander could not percieve a world where his will is not right, as you say, clearly illustrates that he was so focused with carrying his plan forward that his ambition to succeed actually made him oblivious to threats from the outside (the spies of Shar).
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 17:52:04
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| Okay, I see what you are getting at. Yeah, I guess that some level of ambition would be required for him the behave in such a manner. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Acaus Bellum
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2003 : 04:48:34
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| I want to point out that Lathander has no ambition. The reason he thinks he is perfect is because he is a god and the god of self perfection. The reason he thinks the pantheon needs renewed is because he is the god of renewal and he wants to do it in his image because he as the god of perfection thinks he is perfect. He is just living up to his portfolio. As to the Mystra-Shar conflict the result should be that Mystra once again becomes god of all magic and the Weave becomes whole again and Mystra becomes true neutral(no insanity). The reason the present and previous Mystra were both losing themselves is because the were not living up to they're portfolios. |
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him float. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2003 : 07:27:01
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While indeed the need for renewal stems from his portfolio, he would still require an ambitious nature to carry the plan forward.
Dictionary.com defines ambition as -
quote:
am·bi·tion
An eager or strong desire to achieve something, such as fame or power.
The object or goal desired
Lathander's goal or desire was to reshape the Faerunian patheon under his own image. While this renewing aspect falls into his godly porfolio, that simply creates the desire to want to change the pantheon. Lathander's ambition is what carries him forward to try and achieve his goal.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2003 : 11:25:17
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| Everyone has ambition; it's just stronger in some people. Even the holiest of hermit monks has ambition -- the ambition to live up to his ideals, whatever philosophy it comes from. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2003 : 13:22:54
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I was going to say something similar to that also, that regardless of the person (whether they be a god, or merely human), many campaign settings have shown that the gods have some basis for ambition.
Any intention to conduct action whether good or evil requires some founding in ambition.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2003 : 13:26:22
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And beside all that, the deities of the Realms, are not perfect. They have the desires that all beings suffer for. The only difference is, they have incredible amounts of power to achieve said desires.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2003 : 13:46:35
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| Heh. Boy, if Socrates spoke out against the Greek gods, what do you think would happen if he showed up in the Realms? |
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Lathander's Second Dawn
