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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6381 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2013 :  13:01:06  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Im pretty sure this has been asked before but just as a pet project im trying to flesh out the stonelands and gather all the lore i can on it.

I think i have most of the published info as well as some lovely bits of lore gathered from these boards.

I am however having trouble piecing together the history of the stonelands and so wouldnt mind a few ideas.

So here is the timeline as i have it (it includes a few dates from surrounding realms to help with linking it to the rest of the realms).

So the important bits to me are the kingdoms that inhabited this area long ago. It looks like it has always been home to goblinoid but a few other kingdoms ruled over this area as well.

Oghrann occupied underneath the nearby plains of tun from -5125 to -3770 before it was overun by goblinoids (presumably from the stonelands).

An elf kingdom occupied Cormyr from -400 DR until some time before 0 DR

Netheril of course is just north of it until -339 DR

And Cormanthyr occupies the forests to the east until its fall around 600+ DR (i cant remember the exact date).

There is mention of a Cloud giant (and possibly a few references to Storm giant) kingdom in this area in Elminsters Ecologies and a few other books. Now the only name i have managed to find is the Cloudlans, but it may also have been called Ruanaroch.

Now Elminster's Ecologies states this kingdom was destroyed by Asram and Anauria and actually led to the depositing of large chunks of stone giving the stonelands their names. However Ed Greenwood in his page stated that the stonelands were called that because of a battle between giants and dragons that resulted in the shattering of mountain peaks (the giant's homes).

My personal preference is the giants lived in the clouds in southern Netheril undetected for quite a time, but fled further south to the soon to be named stonelands as anauroch and the draining magics of the phaerimm began to affect their cloud cities.

This then drew them into conflict with the dragons that lived in the stormhorns (in Elminster's ecologies it is stated that a lot of dragons live their) and the battle resulted in the destruction of many flying fortress cities of the cloudlands (and many dragons), the remainder of the cloudlands settled over the stormhorns in isolated flying towers.

Now as to a date for this. I have a piece from 200DR that states the goblins were pushed out of Cormyr back to the Stonelands so the realm must have been long dead by then to have given it it's name.

I figure their must be a reason why none of the successor states to Netheril claimed the land for themselves and settled their, if a kingdom of giants lived their they probably would have battled them for the land (arrogance of mages being a strong factor).

So the kingdom of Ruanaroch was probably destroyed by then and the land barren and worthless (and filled with goblinoids), plus the area was already owned by Hlundadim from -393 DR so that would have resulted in a fight.

Dragons being very territorial i would imagine attacked the migrating giant kingdom almost immediately so as soon as they entered their territory a war would have ensued.
Im not sure when Anauroch began to form and the Phaerimm began their work but anytime between -1000 DR and -393 DR seems fair to me for the giants to move into the soon to be Stonelands and then get attacked and soon destroyed.

Next comes the kingdom of Hlundadim which starts in -393 DR and ends in 268 DR. Now this empire is very advanced for goblinkin. They are lead supposedly by a renegade Netherese arcanist, or a being from another plane. The empire destroys Anauria and even sacks Suzail at one point.

Now my own personal theory is that Hlundadim was a Sarrukh lich from Oreme that as a rival to Arthindol the Terraseer was trying to influence a magic strong kingdom that could battle the Phaerimm (and therefore save Oreme from destruction. But also being inherently evil the Sarrukh liches were probably working against one another as well as rivals.

The problem with Hlundadim is that Grodd an advanced city of goblins in an extradimensional plane with Nalavara is supposed to exist as of 116 DR. I find it unlikely that these two kingdoms - Grodd and Hlundadim would have existed side by side, one or the other would have been annihilated.

Now in the adventure detailing Grodd it states that the goblins are descendants from those that used to live in Cormyr. Im havent ever encountered any details of a goblin kingdom in Cormyr, it was ruled by the purple dragon, then the elves, then the humans. At no point would they have allowed a realm of goblins within their borders. However i do have a date of 198 DR goblins invade Cormyr and 200 DR they are driven out.

So my theory is the date of the binding of Nalavara and the city of Grodd is wrong and should not be 116 DR, but should be 316 DR (after the fall of Hlundadim); making Grodd a successor city of Hlundadim. This explains the advanced nature of the goblins. The demiplane could have been created by Hlundadim himself who if he is a Sarrukh lich would be an incredibly powerful magic user and easily capable of creating something like this.

So does anyone have any ideas or thoughts on the date of the creation of the stonelands or how to fit in Grodd into the existing lore in this area.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6381 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2013 :  13:52:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another random idea i had was regarding Sammaster.

When he "reappeared" the first time it says that he was spotted in the Desertsmouth Mountains which isnt too far from the Stonelands.

My thinking is that the Hlundadim empire was not just limited to the Stonelands, they could have expanded towards the Desertsmouth Mountains as well.

And if the Great Hlundadim himself was a sarrukh lich then he was probably well first in extra dimensional spaces (might explain the lack of ruined citadels from that empire).

So what if Sammaster found one of these Hlundite citadels in an extra dimensional pocket (might explain why no one has found it since). And what if it was here that Sammaster discovered the location of the elven mythal that controlled the rage of dragons (after all a sarrukh lich is likely to be one of the few inhabitants of Toril still alive that would have been around when that event occured).

Anyway, just another random musing only loosely connected.

I did however notice the number of orc hordes (and goblinoid hordes) mentioned in the surrounding areas that the source of them is never stated.

It is quite possible that any attack on the western side of Cormanthyr (and Rystall Wood) were wholly or partly massed from the Stonelands area. In fact i wouldnt be surprised if the war that ended Myth Drannor attracted more than a few goblinoids from this area to engage in the destruction.

Similarly attacks going West to the Eastern edge of the Western Heartlands could have come from this area (for instance the Battle of the Bones which we know definitely did).

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6680 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2013 :  23:38:26  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The work on Grodd in terms of weaving it into the existing historical information on Cormyr and its surrounds was less than stellar. Once again a case of the novel tail wagging the gaming dog, and then someone forgetting to feed the dog.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6381 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2013 :  08:30:34  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well since it doesnt fit in well at all, i see no reason why it cant be a goblin successor city state to the Hlundadim Empire.

I'm not entirely sure if the Stonelands are devoid of ruins from that time since the sources state it has been poorly explored and i can find only one reference to a conversion of a Hlundite citadel which i assume to be related (Hlundadim - Hlundite).

It looks like the Stonelands were once much more fertile (the high moors were a lake during the time of Netheril, but gradually they dried out and this drying effect even caused tunnel and cave collapse for the goblinoids.

So since Hlundadim appeared towards the end of Netheril's existence it probably arose during these drier conditions which would have forced the goblinoids into a kind of nomadic surface existence to look for what little food was available.

The mountains were full of dragons and possibly later giants, so there is no way the goblins could have lived there. The only way i can see for the empire to exist and survive is extradimensional spaces that housed the citadels.

So Araugul the goblin mount and no doubt a great many other fortresses would exist like grodd inside a massive extradimensional space with its own food and ecosystem. This would have protected them from the larger humanoids and other predators and more importantly kept the empire hidden from neighbouring Netheril.

Otherwise how would the 200,000 goblinoids from the battle of the bones survive in what is essentially a wasteland, i doubt the stonelands could support that number without magical help.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6381 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2013 :  09:02:02  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did find a passage in elminsters ecologies that states the Hlundadim had fortresses in the Teshen (Desertsmouth Mountains) so it could be that if those fortresses are hidden in extra dimensional spaces that Sammaster may have found one when he returned the first time before he was killed by the twelve paladins.

Since Anauroch and its surroundings are or were so remote and dangerous, it is possible that the existence of these hidden fortresses are completely unknown to humans (of course the goblinoids are probably all to aware of them).

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36868 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2013 :  13:04:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Another random idea i had was regarding Sammaster.

When he "reappeared" the first time it says that he was spotted in the Desertsmouth Mountains which isnt too far from the Stonelands.

My thinking is that the Hlundadim empire was not just limited to the Stonelands, they could have expanded towards the Desertsmouth Mountains as well.

And if the Great Hlundadim himself was a sarrukh lich then he was probably well first in extra dimensional spaces (might explain the lack of ruined citadels from that empire).

So what if Sammaster found one of these Hlundite citadels in an extra dimensional pocket (might explain why no one has found it since). And what if it was here that Sammaster discovered the location of the elven mythal that controlled the rage of dragons (after all a sarrukh lich is likely to be one of the few inhabitants of Toril still alive that would have been around when that event occured).

Anyway, just another random musing only loosely connected.

I did however notice the number of orc hordes (and goblinoid hordes) mentioned in the surrounding areas that the source of them is never stated.

It is quite possible that any attack on the western side of Cormanthyr (and Rystall Wood) were wholly or partly massed from the Stonelands area. In fact i wouldnt be surprised if the war that ended Myth Drannor attracted more than a few goblinoids from this area to engage in the destruction.

Similarly attacks going West to the Eastern edge of the Western Heartlands could have come from this area (for instance the Battle of the Bones which we know definitely did).



It seems a reach for me. I don't know of any reason to assume Sammy found one of these fortresses, nor do I know of any reason to assume one of them had info on a lost elven citadel.

I'd expect that while Sammy was laying low, he discovered the subtle traceries of magic caused by the elven mythal, and traced them to its source.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6381 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2013 :  13:53:58  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i was stretching that one a bit, its just his first reappearance only says he appeared in the desertsmouth mountains and then 12 paladins came along and killed him and i think only 3 emerged alive.

No details of where sammaster was staying at the time or what he was doing (which the lack of detail in itself was odd for one of the most interesting villains in FR, for which we know an awful lot about his history).

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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe

496 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2013 :  17:49:35  Show Profile Send Jakuta Khan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
During the time of hkundadim the stonelands were more than fertile lands. They had good grasing and farming land, and all other necessary ressiurces to sustain a big population.

Also, even in todays stoneelands large quantities of humanoids, especially of the goblin races can be fed there. Mainly due to the existance of many edible underground fungi which grow rapidly and are viewed similar as wheat or edible water plants by the humanoids and also by orcs.

There is also an article on wizards page. I had a threat about fu gi gardens and the sustainable population, back then i the galena mmountains. In there is a link to the article about the fungus gardens and wild growing fungus.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6381 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2013 :  09:12:28  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, there are quite a few conflicting bits of information about the stonelands and its past existences.

I did read somewhere that it was very fertile lands that at one point were used by the successor states to Netheril for their summer retreats.

However the mountains around it (Thunderpeaks or Stormhorns - I forget which) were supposedly full of dragons. Since Thauglor claimed the Forest Kingdom just to the south then these dragons must have been vassals of his (and therefore chromatic dragons) or they would surely be eaten.

A kingdom of giants also lived in the area in ages past, so I fail to see where the room existed for goblinoids and the Netherese to colonise it especially since all four of these races are likely to war against one another.

Ed's post about the dragons and giants engaging in a year long war and annihilating one another seems most likely to explain why there are far fewer dragons and no giant kingdom now, and perhaps the destruction of these allowed the Netherese successor states to colonise the area unhindered.

But in all of this where were the goblinoids hiding? Ed's post says that they hid in crevices in the mountains where the giants and dragons couldn't get them. No need to rule out this crevice containing a hidden extradimensional city or two.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2013 :  14:37:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my homebrew material, I've made Thaeravel (which existed in the southern Anauroch/Stonelands/Goblin Marches region) a close ally of the Cloud Kingdom (which actually had a real name - its just that nobody remembers it anymore), which existed over that realm. When Netheril wiped-out the land of Alaaster Towers, the Cloud kingdom claimed neutrality... but relations were always icy between the two.

The truth of the matter is that the 'Cloud Kingdom' was in fact a part of Thaeravel - its own version of 'High Netheril'. When the Netherese overran their land-based settlements, the sky-towns - fearing their own demise - used resident cloud giants and dragons as a 'front', claiming that those were the leaders of an entirely separate realm. The 'Cloud Kingdom' then signed a treaty with the Netherese, and for a time became a vassal-state of theirs (until the fall of Netheril, which killed them all).

Its a bit more complicated then that, but that's the 'quick & dirty' version. If I ever get to write a CKC article again (or better yet, a canon FR one), I'll use the rest. It ties all the Stonelands history together pretty well, IMHO.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6381 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2013 :  18:57:56  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, I hadn't considered that the complete destruction of Thaeravel could have been merely a ruse.

I am just guessing that the giant kingdom in the clouds was called Ruanaroch. Ruanaroch was detailed on these forums from a sourcebook and was stated as being in southern Netheril and formed of cloud giants, so since the cloudlands fit the same criteria I guessed they were one and the same or the cloudlands were the remnants of ruanaroch.


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