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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 12:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
(...) But you can see a difference between a god doing the magic himself or allowing it to happen.
The difference between a god doing the magic himself or encouraging and consulting a lot of his priests as to how to do the deed using his power is somewhat more fuzzy, however.
Yes, but there is nothing in canon lore saying it happened this way. Besides, there were clerics of the Seldarine, not only of Corellon. And his attitude towards the banishment of Eilistraee (accepting the will of the Seldarine despite his feelings), and his entry in Demihuman Deities where it is cited that he is venerated by "a handful of dark elves" both seem to contradict this possibility.
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 12:48:38
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| Nonetheless, he and the rest of the Seldarine allowed something as terrible as it to happen when they had the possibility to stop it. That's either pure lazyness or not caring. I agree that this part of lore is contradictory, however. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 14:03:52
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| Well, once again, I think the more chaotic, impulsive or vengeful of the Seldarine won over Corellon's sole opinion, as in Eilistraee's case, and he then allowed the ritual to go as it happened. But that's my opinion, with no basis in lore. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 16 Aug 2013 14:04:42 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 14:21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Yes, but there is nothing in canon lore saying it happened this way. Besides, there were clerics of the Seldarine, not only of Corellon.
Knowing how elves and their gods normally operate, his explicit advice on the ritual is much more likely than anything else.
The alternative being that everyone including his clerics discussed for years (they're elves, remember?) that it's time to bounce Ssri'te'qessir out of favor of Corellon, developed the detailed rituals to this end all on their own, and... no one bothered to ask his own stance on this insignificant issue. And other gods - in what appears to be one of the most cohesive pantheons ever around the Great Wheel - didn't ask him either. All the while Corellon himself was either too distracted sniffing flowers or didn't deign to at least make his opinion heard. Seriously? 
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@TBheolder
Removing the heart of Ilythiiri corruption -their leaders, the ones who started spreadin it- and the not yet diffused cults of Lolth and Ghaunadaur would've worked waaay better than promoting their proliferation by exiling the dark elves (the Vyshaan were removed from power through violence, the some could have been done for Ilythiir). The curse wasn't the optimal solution at all, I'd even go as far as saying that it was stupid: you don't indiscriminately exile a whole race because they fought a war with the same weapons as their enemies.
Well, the idea was to curse specifically those who (actually or supposedly) turned from "the proper elven ways", i.e. the Seldarine, wasn't it? So at very least dark elves outside Ilythiir probably weren't supposed to be affected. I.e. they planned something less all-encompassing, but royally screwed up.
IMO it couldn't work "clean" even in the ideal circumstances if the spell is supposed to work with vague affinities rather than individually analyze each target according to formal criteria - simply because polytheism doesn't work that way. But Seldarine were an united pantheon not having much experience with interlopers before Lolth and Ghanadaur, and rather self-absorbed to boot, so this must have been their blind spot. They were thinking in terms of "Are they with us or turned to those two?" - but it's too vague and allows a leeway for random fluctuations and feedback, let alone exploits... which most likely happened too.
quote:
Also even assuming that Eilistraee was so stupid to cut out her father, he could've simply ignored her and spare his people so much death, because -again- lives and souls both divine and mortal were at stake.
Well, duh. The "great plot" of LP is firmly based on the assumption that all involved parties - from a drow archmage to the head of the elven pantheon - at once suddenly became too overexcited and stupid to un-derp their eyes and look at something slightly beyond their own noses. I shall not speculate as to the possible reasons for this nor relations with lack of consistency on other details.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 17 Aug 2013 17:03:25 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 19:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@CorellonsDevout
quote:
Backtracking a little--and I'm only bringing this up because it occurred to me earlier--and returning to LP. What if--and I realize this might be stretching it--Corellon didn't interfere and help Eilistraee because he wasn't allowed? Eilistraee may have asked him to stay out of it. "This is between me and mommy dearest, dad." Again, I know that could be stretching it.
The future of a whole race was at stake there. Any non braindead person would have accepted the help of such a powerful entity, especially considering its involvement in this issue. Someone who -like Eilistraee. holds his/her people dear would never put personal conflict/interests before their well being, especially in a moment as decisive as that.
Also even assuming that Eilistraee was so stupid to cut out her father, he could've simply ignored her and spare his people so much death, because -again- lives and souls both divine and mortal were at stake.
Like I said, I realize I was stretching it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 00:20:51
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| Corellon probably wasn't allowed to interfere.he tied his own hands when he banished the drow.anyone of the dark seldarine could have interfered with the sava game of life but those who did had to go by the same rules.both lolth and the masked lady called on AO as witness to their match,which I think lolth did just so corellon couldn't help his daughter.as a greater goddess lolth could once again see the future where it pertains to her sphere of influence...the drow.she knew she would when the match between the masked lady and herself. Corellon couldn't interfere until lolth infringed on the elven domain.once the masked lady cleansed the her dark elves that put them within corellon's sphere of influence. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 00:44:26
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He could have acted without stupidly binding himself to a chess game...
It's not like he needed a piece on that board to represent himself in order to help: playing the game only meant signing for a deathmatch, but nothing says that the ones who don't do it can't influence the drow matter, AFAIK.
For example, Corellon could have made the life of free drow much easier by promoting the creation of relationships with the elves -without the need for the former to have brownish skin (which doesn't add anything)- letting the eilistraeens and their goddess know that they're not alone on their battle. This is something that he should have done since the beginning of the Descent, chess game or not. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Aug 2013 00:44:58 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 01:01:36
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I'm gonna add another twist to the discussion...what if Eli and Corellon knew Lloth wouldn't 'play the game' if Corellon was in it and so secretly conspired (knowing Eli would lose) to free what drow she could and then dear ol' dad would join in and move directly against the ex-wife...all with a plan to bring back his lil' girl in the end!  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 01:27:46
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It was Lolth who got everyone into the game, not Eilistraee -AFAIK-
Besides, why play a game like that at all, when it doesn't give you any extra tools or advantages to get what you want. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun could have simply continued their battle without limiting themselves or gambling everything on a game (especially when more and more drow were starting to move away from Lolth -20% of dark elven population worshiping Eilistraee at the time was a sign of this-)
The idea of having Lolth tell Eilistraee ''yo, lets deathmatch'' and the positive answer to this of all the Dark Seldarine just doesn't make sense in my eyes.
Also (I said it in some other post, sorry about repeating myself) I don't see the reason for all this hurry to redeem what drow she could, when those dark elves were the ones who didn't even need or want it? Why force them to forgo their drowness, when it is something that they have no problem with and see as part of their identity? I really fail to see any logical motivation behind this (which is what it was done in the novels), even more so that they never intended ''redemption'' as changing race, but as conquering freedom and choosing one's own life. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 01:35:35
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I agree with the sentiments Irennan. Drow are a proud people and I don't see them willingly giving up/changing their appearance. It was a bad move on WotC's part to implement this (and I say this as it was NOT THE FAULT of Ms. Smedman, she did what she was contracted to do).
My point is I can see Eli agreeing to the match IF she knew she and her people would have some backup afterwards (in the form of Corellon stepping in). I guess I'm just trying to do my best to reconcile the lore in a meaningful way for myself. Corellon handled the whole situation very poorly during the Descent (I rather like the hypothesis that the High Magic ritual was tampered with by Lloth, btw) and, sincer redemption was the focus of the novel, perhaps he saw his part in it a type of redemption for his past failings. Just something to chew on...my homebrew does not match canon anyway (Eli never died in my campaign). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 01:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I agree with the sentiments Irennan. Drow are a proud people and I don't see them willingly giving up/changing their appearance. It was a bad move on WotC's part to implement this (and I say this as it was NOT THE FAULT of Ms. Smedman, she did what she was contracted to do).
True. I know that the author was merely carrying out orders and I'm not trying to bash her.
quote:
My point is I can see Eli agreeing to the match IF she knew she and her people would have some backup afterwards (in the form of Corellon stepping in). I guess I'm just trying to do my best to reconcile the lore in a meaningful way for myself. Corellon handled the whole situation very poorly during the Descent (I rather like the hypothesis that the High Magic ritual was tampered with by Lloth, btw) and, sincer redemption was the focus of the novel, perhaps he saw his part in it a type of redemption for his past failings. Just something to chew on...my homebrew does not match canon anyway (Eli never died in my campaign).
I get what you mean, but considering that the eilistraeens didn't need any redemption whatsoever and that changing them and then going poof would have left the rest of the drow (the vast majority) -which in the novels are labeled as ''unwilling'' and ''cast down'' by Corellon's servants, IIRC- w/o any help, I could never picture the Dark Maiden agreeing to the game (especially considering that anything she did while playing, she could have accomplished w/o doing so -and that the game was only a limitation: they were playing by Lolth's rules there-).
If Corellon wanted to make up for the Descent, he should have simply done what I wrote four posts above, not letting his son and daughter do all the job, then come in and ''claim'' all the followers, IMO. I really don't like this portrayal of him. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 18:48:32
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| Maybe the masked lady agreed to the death match to distract lolth so she couldn't interfere with the ritual. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 20:26:23
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As already discussed, the problem is that the ritual and the transformation weren't even needed, or wanted (for reasons that I explained in my previous posts). Eilistraeens being drow wasn't a problem, the balor curse wasn't either (it had no influence on the life of free drow, since all it did was holding them back from Arvandor, but they went to E's realm anyway, so...). Accepting a deathmatch to solve a non-issue a really stupid thing to do, especially when it's played by the enemy's rules.
I wish that they just brought Eilistraee and Vhaeraun/The Masked Lady back and be done with this mess of contradictions and stupid behaviours. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Aug 2013 20:27:03 |
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So Would Corellon....... ?
