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DBG
Acolyte

United Kingdom
29 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  12:30:37  Show Profile Send DBG a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have been reading the Complete Book of Elves, the section about the Bladesong fighting style. pages 70-72

On page 71 where the book details about the race restrictions it says that :
quote:
Originally posted in the PHBR8

Please note: Elves never teach this style to non-elves, including Half-elves and Drow (the later of whom have their own teachers and their own style anyway).

Is there any other reference to this Drow Bladesong Fighting style?

I have searched and as yet have found nothing.

I have The Drow of the Underdark and in it find no reference.

I would appreiciate your help.

Edited by - DBG on 16 Mar 2011 12:31:36

DBG
Acolyte

United Kingdom
29 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  12:35:47  Show Profile Send DBG a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to clarify:

I am not interested in the Kit : Bladesinger

I just after info on the Fighting Style of Bladesong. In this case specifically for Drow
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe

Australia
388 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  13:29:43  Show Profile Send Snowblood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IIRC the Drow have their own unique fighting styles and never developed a blade song...they have no need...

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DBG
Acolyte

United Kingdom
29 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  13:41:52  Show Profile Send DBG a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood

IIRC the Drow have their own unique fighting styles and never developed a blade song...they have no need...



I was just going from the wording in the PHBR8 Comp Book of Elves where it does hint at a drow version.. See the direct quote taken from page 71 in my op.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  13:47:30  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always assumed that drow bladesinging was pretty much the same as the regular bladesinging, only the 'code' differed.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  14:15:49  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only lore on any drow bladesong style that I am aware of is a brief mentioning of a drow Deathsinging style in Elaine Cunninghams Daughter of the Drow or Tangled Webs. The closest I can find to having mechanical representation of that lore is the late 3.5 core class called the Duskblade. Eytan Bernstein linked that gish-style blend of steel and spell to the ancient pre-drow culture of the Vyshaanti though, in this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070228) article. Elven Duskblades are collectively called "Cleansing Blades" or "Uluuth Phlarenn".

I personally dont like the name Deathsingers though. Bladesinging has very little to do with actual vocalised song. It's the energised longswords swoosh that does the singing part...

I do like the link of Duskblade sword and sorcery blend being a less fey and more practical fighting style emerging from pitched battle experience. So I propose that drow bladesinging also is largely based on Duskblade techniques and call their style of El'Teal somthing like Melee'CathZ'ress or Fighting with Fiery or Flaming Force.

Edit: Spelling

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Edited by - Bladewind on 16 Mar 2011 14:17:29
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DBG
Acolyte

United Kingdom
29 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  14:35:36  Show Profile Send DBG a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Bladewind,

I'll read up on the Duskblade though I was hoping for a 2e reference.

Kilvan,
I had started to think along those same lines. That's why I asked here.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  14:36:51  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh, I just found a 2nd edition reference here:
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/stonekeep/25/drowkit.html

Good gaming!

EDIT: Oh Wait. I wanted to make another point.

Bladesinging is usually described as a highly mobile and acrobatic fighting style. Thats why I advocate that Deathsingers largely use Duskblade techniques: the underdark doesn't provide good opportunities for utilising an acrobatic mobile style and favors a more direct frontal style like the duskblades employ.

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Edited by - Bladewind on 16 Mar 2011 14:39:45
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DBG
Acolyte

United Kingdom
29 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  14:47:24  Show Profile Send DBG a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for that!

I've just had a quick scan through and looks like it could be something to use or adapt.

I like the Death Blade & Drow Bladesinger and it shouldn't be too hard to create the Fighting style for Drow seperate from the kit.

Thanks again
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  15:05:41  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I'd like to adapt drow bladesingers/deathsingers who master 'Orthae Velve' into a special 3.5 PrC for all those 3ed enthousiasts here.

I'd imigine that the fear effects of witnessing a Deathsinger employ its art has some ties into some sort of infernal magic. I think I'll make my own thread for this project though, to not clutter this one up.

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Druidic Groves

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DBG
Acolyte

United Kingdom
29 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  15:11:55  Show Profile Send DBG a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't mind cluttter away
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  15:28:20  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Already made the thread! Heheh
Here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15025

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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
729 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  17:29:41  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... In my compiled proficiencies and skills documents for 2E, I have a drow fighting style called deathsong. I'm not sure of the original source (it was probably a netbook or net resource).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2011 :  17:36:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

I always assumed that drow bladesinging was pretty much the same as the regular bladesinging, only the 'code' differed.

PRECISELY

If you read that very carefully, it is saying that Drow have their own version of Bladesong... there is no reason why the info would need to be re-printed in another book. All that is saying is that the two versions are incompatible (yet mechanically work the same).

IIRC, there was some sort Bladesong Drow in one of the Drizzt books (or maybe in the WotSQ)... not sure. I know there was a Bard-like character (although I forget now - Danifae, maybe?) in WotSQ.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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DBG
Acolyte

United Kingdom
29 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2011 :  09:47:08  Show Profile Send DBG a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have found a reference for a Deathsinger in Wind Walker, Starlight & Shadows book 3, by Elzine Cunningham.

Brindlor, He was a Drow Bard.

I'll have to re-read the book to see if he uses a bladesong type fighting style.

I'll have to look in the Drizzit books to find the other ref mentioned.
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2011 :  19:32:54  Show Profile Send Galuf the Dwarf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DBG

I have found a reference for a Deathsinger in Wind Walker, Starlight & Shadows book 3, by Elzine Cunningham.

Brindlor, He was a Drow Bard.

I'll have to re-read the book to see if he uses a bladesong type fighting style.

I'll have to look in the Drizzit books to find the other ref mentioned.



Brindlor seemed to more fit the ideal of the 3.5 Edition Dirge Singer PrC from Libris Mortis than the drow bladesong archetype.

Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
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Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2382 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2013 :  21:02:26  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed, that "Deathsinger" clearly has absolutely nothing to do with bladesong and in 3.x terms the description would obviously translate into Bard/Dirgesinger (Libris Mortis). The guy kept a miniature musical skeleton as a toy, for crying out loud.

quote:
Originally posted by DBG

I have been reading the Complete Book of Elves, the section about the Bladesong fighting style. pages 70-72
On page 71 where the book details about the race restrictions it says that :
quote:

Please note: Elves never teach this style to non-elves, including Half-elves and Drow (the later of whom have their own teachers and their own style anyway).
Is there any other reference to this Drow Bladesong Fighting style?
Er... what? You search references for their variations of the same style after it was explicitly said (as you quoted) that Drow have their own style and you wonder why you can't find any?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2013 :  22:56:44  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think the drow have a bladesong style. I think their 'own fighting style' is the dual weapon style many/most use.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
745 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2013 :  03:36:28  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AFAIK there has been no reference in any edition that states that Drow have a bladesong style. That statement simply says they already have their own fighting styles that have evolved to suit their own needs. I think we're all pretty familiar with the typical drow fighting styles.
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2382 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2013 :  14:05:32  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup. And 3.5e DotU have a few fairly good ideas in addition. That being 3.5 it got styles as feats, of course.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7968 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2013 :  06:43:52  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markustay provided the correct answer - the PHBR8 text simple states that drow possess their own bladesinging fighting style. In terms of 2E game mechanics it would be the same thing, although it would differ in appearance (elves and drow certainly have different artistic/performance preferences!) and, of course, no strain of elf would ever admit any kind of similarity. I suspect it is much like how the old AD&D material often used a single ruleset for two or more different martial arts styles.

Remember that bladesingers are (theoretically) rare, with only a few appearing in each elven generation, and stylistic elements are passed from master to student ... any elf familiar with bladesingers could easily identify which style is being used and who taught it, it‘s almost like a form of performance-heraldry which differentiates clans and guilds and traditions of bladesingers. How much greater this divide must be for the long-removed drow.

I note, however, that the single 2E drow NPC provided - Drizzt himself - is not (to my knowledge) a practioner of bladesinging or deathsinging yet he is given a special “% chance to kill target“ advantage when using his scimitars. This doesn‘t necessarily have anything to do with bladesinging, it could be a trick handed down Drizzy‘s house from some old 1E drow fighter/assassin for all I know, yet it is suggestive.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Aug 2013 06:56:24
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2382 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2013 :  16:10:35  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Markustay provided the correct answer - the PHBR8 text simple states that drow possess their own bladesinging fighting style.
Where? The quoted text states the exact opposite.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2013 :  16:24:57  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with TBelholder. It states they have their own style, not their own bladesong style. And it is clearly stated that drow are NEVER taught the bladesong style. Perhaps the question should be put to Ed or maybe a designer can step in and clarify for us?

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11693 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2013 :  23:53:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The elven bladesinger is one who uses a weapon in one hand and has the other hand free for casting. If I were to make a prestige class for the drow bladesinger, the one thing I'd definitely stress is the use of two-weapon fighting (only because so many drow are portrayed as dual weapon wielders and they have the natural Dex for it). I'd modify the bladesong style bonus to be a dodge bonus to AC when wielding two weapons. I'd replace the lesser spellsong ability at 2nd lvl and replace it with the "somatic weaponry" feat from complete mage. Also, for the requirements, I'd replace the weapon focus (longsword or rapier) requirement with eschew materials AND two-weapon fighting. In making these two replacements they give up a decent feat (weapon focus) for eschew materials, but in return they get somatic weaponry in replacement for a better chance to maintain concentration. In doing so, they're not tied to any particular weapon set (twin shortswords, longsword and short sword, mace and short sword, whatever) and they use their "spellsong" movements to cast spells in combat even with weapons in their hands and no materials. I'd change the capstone "song of fury" from being an extra melee attack to instead being a final song of celerity (a 3rd one per day) affecting 5th lvl and lower spells and an extra 1st lvl spell from memory in any round in which they are using the two weapon fighting style (thus while song of fury has more uses per day, this has a more effective but limited uses per day). Finally, I'd actually lessen the BAB advancement to the 3/4 advancement like a cleric and increase the spellcaster lvls so that you get 7 levels of casting instead of 5 (thinking drop 2nd, 5th, and 8th lvls, gain new spellcasting 1,3,4,6,7,9,10). Oh, and push song of celerity from 4th lvl to 5th lvl, so that at 5th and 8th lvls you have a decent ability to make up for the loss of spellcasting.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7968 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2013 :  00:05:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I read the passage as follows, *clarifying text added by me*

quote:
PHBR8

Please note: Elves never teach this style to non-elves, including Half-elves and Drow (the later of whom have their own teachers and their own *version of bladesong fighting *style anyway).
Although I do admit it seems ambiguous enough to go either way, and indeed is perhaps a question best put to Ed or Elaine. Lacking any other input, post-2E material would be a good way to go.

[/Ayrik]
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
745 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2013 :  01:03:21  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say due to the utter lack of references among any RPG product of any drow styles resembling bladsong, that the passage, while ambiguous, states that Elves never teach THIS style to non-elves, including half-elves and drow. Thus indicating that this style is EXCLUSIVE to non-drow elves.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2013 :  01:43:30  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I went ahead and posed the question for Ed/THO. Hopefully we will get an answer soon.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2013 :  16:36:24  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This would be a nice question, and probably they will answer based on what they wrote in the past (EC) or possibly creating new lore (Ed). Remember that the Complete Book of Elves was a generic AD&D book, not a Realms-specific sourcebook.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2013 :  18:26:14  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I mentioned that in my question but I'm sure Ed/THO will have an answer.




I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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