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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

@Irenan: Mmm, I'll admit my Crown Wars knowledge is not that extensive. The Grand History of the Realms only provides so much detail, and it has been years since I've read Evermeet. Demihuman Deities didn't go into a whole lot of detail, either, at least if memory serves, so it sounds like you know more than I do. I'll give you credit for that, and now that I think about it, Corellon�s actions did give the drow to Lolth. However, I think she eventually would have gotten her hands on them, anyway, especially if she had corrupted their leaders. Corellon�s intentions may have been to punish, and by extension, save the rest of his people from corruption, but it backfired by Lolth gaining more followers. Even the best(?) intentions backfire sometimes. Banishing the drow could have been the god�s way of saying �don�t do this again�, aka a warning. Not a friendly warning, but like a said, gods do things on large scales.

Afterwards, IIRC from Grand History, after the Crown Wars, the Seldarine told the elves to assemble the Elven Court so something like the Wars doesn�t happen again. If not the Descent, then this move might have been Corellon�s (and the other Seldarine) way of saving the elves, so they wouldn�t slaughter each other, anymore. I think the gods were as tired of it as the elves, by the end.

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I get your point. Yeah, punishements are ways to say ''don't do this again'', but the Descent definitely was an overreaction.
Btw, Lost Empires of Faerun has good info about the Crown Wars, so do the pdf that the scribe Snowblood published on his/her DeviantArt account (Phasai, IIRC).

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I still like Corellon as a deity though. I like Mask and Vhaeraun, and they�re evil-aligned. I was just as bummed about V�s death as I was of E�s, even though it was Eilistraee who was given the drow a greater opportunity. Vhaeraun was still a better option than his mother.

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I quite like Corellon too, that's one of the reasons why I feel strongly about how he was portrayed in this Crow Wars/Descent/LP matter.

And IMO Vhaeraun tries to give the drow a great opportunity too: like his sister he encourages them to be the shapers of their future, even tho their views on how the drow should affirm themselves differ quite a bit.

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I could see Eilistraee possibly coming to Drizzt and asking him to help lead the drow. Heck, even Jarlaxle sees Drizzt as �the one who escaped�. He�s more likely to become a follower of Eilistraee than Corellon.

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Drizzt could be an inspiration for the drow, but his character doesn't strike me as lending itself to be that kind of leader. He's a rebel, but I see him more focused to a personal level rather than the kind of rebel that E or V and their followers are. This is coming from someone who has nothing but the very basic knowledge about Drizzt tho, so I may very well be wrong.

That's also one of the reasons why I don't see Corellon meddling in his affairs.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I didn't mind what he did in LP so much. He saved E's followers, IMO. I'm sure he felt saddened for his daughter's death, but he couldn't very well show that in front of Lolth, otherwise she'd seize on his weakness. That's how I see it, anyway. What I'd like to see is a continuation of the LP, but nooooo.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Honestly, I don't want to see a continuation of LP. Those novels could even be the best writtem books in the world, but the lore is... well, bad. They were written to carry out the designers' decision to get rid of the DS. What I'd like to see about this matter -since they're not retconning it- is some lore that restores E and V, gives some logical explanation to what happened (and how the two deities returned/survived), and that provides plot hooks about their and their followers' (including the brownies) plans for the future.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

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Originally posted by Irennan

Honestly, I don't want to see a continuation of LP. Those novels could even be the best writtem books in the world, but the lore is... well, bad. They were written to carry out the designers' decision to get rid of the DS. What I'd like to see about this matter -since they're not retconning it- is some lore that restores E and V, gives some logical explanation to what happened (and how the two deities returned/survived), and that provides plot hooks about their and their followers' (including the brownies) plans for the future.

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Part of me wants the Masked Lady back. That was way too excellently conceived to be cut short so soon. Of course, E and V were also great as separate gods.

However, the other part of me enjoys Lolth ruling the drow. I like the hopeless despair that results from being trapped under insane Lolth's thumb. The drow reach the pinnacles of martial skill, magical might, political intrigue, beauty, architecture, and everything else. Yet it's all for nothing, because they can't ever truly enjoy their existence (in this life or the next). I find the drow very interesting just like they are.

That's what I meant when I said continuation: lore that restores Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, explains what happens, and tells the future of the brownies and followers.

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Originally posted by Lilianviaten


Part of me wants the Masked Lady back. That was way too excellently conceived to be cut short so soon. Of course, E and V were also great as separate gods.

However, the other part of me enjoys Lolth ruling the drow. I like the hopeless despair that results from being trapped under insane Lolth's thumb. The drow reach the pinnacles of martial skill, magical might, political intrigue, beauty, architecture, and everything else. Yet it's all for nothing, because they can't ever truly enjoy their existence (in this life or the next). I find the drow very interesting just like they are.

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Originally posted by Irennan
Corellon didn't act to save his people (surely turning the drow into obsidian black people didn't make them less of a threat...), he acted to punish and, by doing so, he basically surrendered all the drow to Lolth.

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Originally posted by Irennan
The explanation was that there was a mistake in the curse ritual, or something along those lines.

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Originally posted by jerrod
[...] They demonized the dark elves through quiet lobbying,and paying bards,and the darkelves of ilythiir played right into the hands of the vyshaan.their anger was used against them to help turn enough of the other elven subraces against the dark elves.

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Think about this..if corellon had slain the entire dark elf race and their allies it would have been devastating to the weave,but cause elves are a part of the weave

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and the seldarine would have suffered a major drop in power it he had killed or banished the gold elves at a time when lolth and the other anti seldarine were gaining in power.it is possible that the elven race would've been driven from toril(meaning the seldarine would've been banished from this crystalsphere. I think The.choice was lose one subrace or lose two or more,so the seldarine began damage control on a massive level. The drow were sacrificed to preserve the deific power of the seldarine,and the vyshaan were sentenced to death only because the gods realized that the vyshaan were serving malkizid,and they were gonna damned the other golds causing the seldarine to lose the worship of the gold elves. And I think secondarily to appease the the guilthy feelings the monelves had for banishing the innocent dark elves with the bad ones.

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Originally posted by Barastir

A great difference between the old legend and the newer lore is that in the tale it is Corellon that chenges the dark-hearted elves into drow, and in the newer version it is a High magic ritual, reinforced by clerics of teh Seldarine, that changes the Ssri-Tel'Quessir into dhaerow.

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I'm ot sure in ho much Corellon would be able to deny this magic, cast by mages and by priests of his fellow gods.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Now, since the ritual was meant to deny Corellon's favor to the dark elves, I wonder why he didn't correct this flaw (actually I still wonder why he allowed such a punishment at all, for the reasons described in my other posts).

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Originally posted by Irennan

Yes, the Ilythiiri worshipped ''dark deities'', but really... how am I supposed to believe that the random farmer/citizen was ''omg ebil''? They were just like all other elves, not innately evil or anything. Their leader were corrupted by Wendonai, but the Vyshaan were Malkzid's puppets, yet all the dark elves got punished while the sun elves only saw their leaders gone.

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Originally posted by Barastir

I see Corellon's attitude of banishing and not exterminating them as an act of mercy, maybe for seeing in them the potential for good in the future

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Originally posted by Irennan

The elves are not even native of Toril. Sure, they are strongly linked with the Weave but -AFAIK- they are not part of it and magic wouldn't suffer if elves died.

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Bara's Second Rule of Nature:

An unnatural force can become part of the natural environment.

Suppose some unthinking mage opens a gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire, creating a sea of fire. (There are a lot of ye thoughtless types out there, so give a listen. -Elminster) For a time this unnatural force causes a lot of problems in the local environment. Animals and plants die, others move to new homes, and the weather is affected by a permanent source of heat. (This would irritate me, by the way. Don't do it.)

After a while, though, the surrounding environment and the organisms living within it would adapt to this strange incursion. Creatures accustomed to heat and fire would move in, and everything would adjust to accommodate the sea of fire. At this point, which occurs only after years of pain, death, and adaptation, the sea of fire would become a "normal" part of the environment. Removing it would have the same effects as its original introduction: a lot of creatures and plants would die, the ecology would be upset, and a long period of adaptation to the new conditions would follow.

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By far the most obvious reason both for doing it and for the process going out of control is that dark elves to a great enough degree already left Seldarine for (or more often supplemented with) Dark Seldarine and interlopers. Otherwise they won't become a target prioritized above Vyshaan. As simple as this. The Seldarine aren't completely oblivious.
That they failed to run something perfectly on the Prime, over a subject contested with several other gods (one of whom got "dark elves" and another "lifeforce" in portfolio), in a matter as precarious as "withdrawing favor" (and thus their power over?..) - it's less surprising than if they did not screw up

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Also, what's with "Corellon did not want this"? He never was described as a frolicking-with-sprites type merrily giggling and sniffing flowers, but always as a warrior god. More specifically, excessive and over-dramatic vengefulness is quite in character - see the tale of Lafarallin.

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Non sequitur. Also, existing lore mentions that they are indeed "part of the Weave" every time. Or, in the words of one druid -[...]

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Barastir

A great difference between the old legend and the newer lore is that in the tale it is Corellon that changes the dark-hearted elves into drow, and in the newer version it is a High magic ritual, reinforced by clerics of the Seldarine, that changes the Ssri-Tel'Quessir into dhaerow.

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I don't see how it's a "difference" rather than an in-universe mythological interpretation. Also "new version" here is as new as mentions of High Magic.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Well, as I said, cults of Lolth and Ghaunadaur had just started to exist among the population when the descent hit (4th Crown War). Before that, the dark elves who worshipped those deities were some power seeking noble houses. At this point, one would guess that the obvious choice would be to remove the corrupted leaders and destroy the cults while they were still weak and not spread yet. If something akin to this worked for the Vyshaan, why not for the dark elves?

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The general portrayal of Corellon that comes out from his description isn't excessive and over-dramatic vengefulness, however events point to the other way...

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Even in your example, the living beings aren't part of the sea of fire, they merely live in it.

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Originally posted by Barastir

We can see it that way, too. But you can see a difference between a god doing the magic himself or allowing it to happen.

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Originally posted by jerrod
And further more wendonei corrupted the ilythiiri,but the golds were the ones who "demonized"the miyeritari through rumors of their corruption...! Remember you're not the only "master" of elven lore.

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orry irennan,but you are wrong.humans use the weave,elves are a part of the weave. Even liriel beanre was made aware of this fundamental truth when she carved her rune on ydrissal's child. Most surface elves are already aware of this,only the drow decendants of the dark elves forgot this truth.[...]

As for the weave not being harmed by the massive death of the elves,again you are wrong.the weave is haredim by the massive deaths of ANY magically based creature.for instance the death of hundreds of dragons,the death toll of the sundering ritual of the elves,the reason the phrimm were caged instead of killed,there is only so much the weave can allow you to do though violence before you begin to hurt your own source of power. Gradual destruction is one thing but mass destruction....

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It not "worked for the Vyshaan" just like that. It worked much later - when they were worn out, and everyone else was less enthusiastic and more pissed off about the whole thing. That is, at the time of The Descent neither Ilythiir nor Vyshaan high-ups could be removed from power simply by a prophetic degree. If fixing things was so simple, they'd do this and get it over with.
Besides, the notion that magic ran out of bounds implies that it was supposed to be more selective, doesn't it? Except it's already a dodgy idea when it's not quite clear what exactly constitues a "worshipper".

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For you, they aren't. For that druid, they are. In a slightly less extreme case, you could say a flower on a mountain is not a part of it but "merely lives here", and she would say it only demonstrates that you suffer from an aberration of proximity.

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Backtracking a little--and I'm only bringing this up because it occurred to me earlier--and returning to LP. What if--and I realize this might be stretching it--Corellon didn't interfere and help Eilistraee because he wasn't allowed? Eilistraee may have asked him to stay out of it. "This is between me and mommy dearest, dad." Again, I know that could be stretching it.

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