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TheJustLawOfShamash
Acolyte
4 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 07:29:42
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Hello sages of Candlekeep. Having read through the Fiendish Codex: Hordes of the Abyss, the Obyrith Pale Night caught my attention. There is something intriguing about this mysterious, unspeakably ancient evil. I was wondering if there is more information to be found other than what the Fiendish Codex has to say, as my google searches have turned up bupkis. Information on other obyriths would be welcome as well, if anyone could point me in the right direction.
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"Then did Ur-Nammu the mighty warrior, king of Ur, king of Sumer and Akkad, by the might of Sîn, lord of the city, and in accordance with the true word of Šamaš, establish equity in the land; he banished malediction, violence and strife." - Code of Ur-Nammu |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 14:45:44
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You just made me think of something... just how old is 'ancient'?
Could Pale Night (and perhaps the other Obyriths) be ancient dark fey powers? A result of when the Seelie and Unseelie courts first split (before or during the Sundering, making it some 32K+ years ago)? Would that not work? I am only thinking along these lines because we know she is the mother of Graz'zt, whom I theorized is a brother of Lolth (hence lolth's 'demonic' leanings, and also Graz'zt's own dubious affiliations... not to mention appearance).
I may have to tweak my proto-cosmology yet again - thanks for bringing her up. Hopefully Shemmy will be long shortly to provide you with every ounce of (canon) Fiendish goodness.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2013 : 19:55:17
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First appearance in Faces of Evil (Planescape), Expedition to the Demonweb Pits adventure (3e, her aspect appears), Dragon 341 (Baphomet article), Dragon 360 (Graz'zt article), Dragon 369
I don't think she's fey, obyriths never were corrupted, primal CE from the beginning. Lolth was transformed into a tanar'ri 30k years ago. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2013 : 14:27:14
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Chaotic sounds Fey-ish. Evil sounds Unseelie.
As for Lolth... maybe she just regressed into her previous form after Corellon stripped her of her divinity.
Lots of ways to spin things...
Not saying any of that could be canon, and I am not even saying I will use that - I am just rolling things around inside my head ATM, seeing new ways things could fall out, is all. I have it where some of the earliest Creator Race gods were indeed primal powers, until they came up with their own gods (ascended mortals-turned-deity). Just as the Seelie Fey were attracted to Danu (the Tuatha Dé Danann), Dark fey may have chosen to worship certain fiendish powers, such as Obyriths.
Pale Night is sometimes considered 'the mother of demons', and Lolth has been a demon: That doesn't make a lot of sense at face value - a 'part-time' demon. The same holds true for Graz'zt, and we know he is the son of Pale Night. If these are all offspring of hers that she had with certain Archfey, then it would all make more sense, IMHO.
And then there is the "zt" prefix... I've theorized before that it means 'clever traitor' in some ancient fiendish tongue (which would be like a compliment to a fiend).
Like I said, just trying to connect 'random dots' together. Hopefully Shemmy will swing by and provide the OP with some canon answers - he's pretty-much the 'go to' guy when it comes to The Planes (and especially Daemons). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Aug 2013 14:27:32 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 15:08:45
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Either way she regressed to a tanar'ri, not obyrith, do you know the difference? obyriths are Lovecraftian horrors, e.g. Dagon, nothing fey-ish about them, they are older than mortal concepts of CE, from before there were souls. If you want to connect the fey and Tuatha, then darker fey would be on the fomorian side (balor is a tanar'ri), also many Unseelies are undead, beings of the outer planes like the obyriths can't ever become undead.
Only similarity is in 4e cosmology where obyriths originated from another, destroyed multiverse, they corrupted Tharizdun with the shard of pure evil. That would be before the Dark God corrupted the fey. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 17:24:22
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Right.
What I said in my last post is that she (Pale Night) may have had 'relations' with some Archfey, and thus gave birth to Graz'zt (and perhaps Lolth). I doubt beings at that level of power (Primal powers) need any sort of 'partner' to create other beings, but its usually the way such things are done.
Come to think of it... Mystryl has two mommies. 
I'm not a big fan of Cthulhu stuff, but I have been working it into my proto-cosmology concept. Its one of those 'background things' I doubt I will ever use, but they are there... in the shadows... waiting. 
If you are at all familair with the Wellworld series of novels, I picture the universe working a lot like that, and aberrations are my Markovians (and all originally one race). Unlike the Markovians, though, who grew bored with being alone in a fairly empty universe, the Aberrations (and their Cthonic masters) want to destroy the multiverse that has been created, and 'overwritten' on top of THEIR universe.
Think of the universe as an enormous version of The Matrix - without 'the program' holding it all together, it would revert back to 'the truth' - this is what the aberrations strive to do. However, instead of a computer program, its a groups of uber-beings, several tiers higher then Overgods, that ARE 'the program'.
So its a little like the Cthulhu cycle, in that the Cthonic powers are trying to destroy those other primal powers who stand in their way. Thus far - in my homebrew mythos - Ymir has been their only success (and only partially).
I am glad you shared that bit with me, about the Obyriths being those powers - I can use that. I would assume all of them would not be working toward the same end, though (I am thinking most of them would like to 'reboot' the universe with them in charge). Elder Evils serve my purpose as the 'unswerving servants of Cthon" better.
Hmmm... I guess in my mythos that would make the Obyriths the equivalent of deities in the primal universe (pre-Big Bang), in that they were the very first ascended beings (having risen from the ranks of common aberrations). That would mean 'The Eldest' is an Obyrith (using my logic). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Aug 2013 17:37:40 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 17:39:06
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| Correction Markus, Mystryl HAD two mommies, i remember her not making it past the Time of Troubles along some other deities. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 01:55:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Correction Markus, Mystryl HAD two mommies, i remember her not making it past the Time of Troubles along some other deities.
Mystryl didn't make it past the Year of Sundered Webs, -339 DR. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Aug 2013 01:56:49 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 10:58:16
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| My bad Wooly, i mixed it up with the other death. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 16:54:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Right.
What I said in my last post is that she (Pale Night) may have had 'relations' with some Archfey, and thus gave birth to Graz'zt (and perhaps Lolth). I doubt beings at that level of power (Primal powers) need any sort of 'partner' to create other beings, but its usually the way such things are done...
Pale Night probably had relations with lots of beings, of any fey-like beings most likely eladrins (before and after Androlynne), but she's not actually the mother of demons, it's just a title, most are spawned directly from the Abyss (some think the plane is sentient). Graz'zt's father is unknown pre-4e, it's possible. D&D equivalent of Markovians could be the Sleeping Ones from the plane of Ice, I don't consider them the same as the draedens (another enormous tentacled race, around one of them Abyss formed). I don't think the obyriths are like other aberrations (who are usually from the Prime plus some Far Realm influences). Similar to other ancient fiends they originate from the concept of evil, all fiends appeared very weird at first, obyriths, ancient baatorians, some yugoloths still do, before belief started shaping the planes. Highest power among the obyriths/qlippoth could be Rovagug from Pathfinder.
Chronologically I think it goes like this
1. Previous multiverse: Life wins against Chaos, all becomes oneness. Only neutral spirits (Fey) escape (source: Tall Tales of the Wee Folk), probably in some proto-ethereal or dream-like state. Also beings of the void survive, draedens (source: Mystara's Immortals books).
2. New cycle of the multiverse begins when the oneness explodes. (possibly caused by Azathoth, similar to your Cthon) This time entropy is supposed to win at the end. Four elements appear plus the fifth, thought. Patterns of thought form self-awareness and spirit.
3. The Sleeping Ones (source: The Inner Planes)
4. Five outer planes form out from the mists of creation and spirit-stuff. Incarnations of Good, Law, Chaos, Evil (baernaloths), and Balance appear. (source: Hellbound)
5. First ultroloth purifies the fiends, the obyriths settle the Abyss.
6. Later, a rare cosmic incident spills the ''blood'' of a Far Realm elder evil. First aberrations, probably aboleths, appear in the Prime, unrelated to the obyriths.
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Information on Pale Night and other Obyriths
