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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 15:29:17
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My perception from the boards and such, which may or may not be wrong, is people see Sune and her clergy less as a good characters for the most part but as vain and self-absorbed beings. I wonder how much of the perception we the players and readers of Realmslore have is due to Sunites being show in novels as such, less to do with what the majority of the Sunites actually are in the realms.
So do you see Sunites as Vain and Selfish people, less CG and more CN, or is this just a misperception I have? Or do you see this similarly?
Also do you continue along this line, perhaps changing Sune to CN? Or do you challenge and counter it, perhaps by having more noble and selfless Sunites in your games?
Just tossing out a thought and seeking advice/commentary...
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 15:48:16
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There is certainly a fair amount of lore regarding *some* Sunites as being vain and self-absorbed. Sune herself urges her followers to avoid this kind of behaviour and probably the majority of sunites do their best to make others appearances more pleasant, rather than concentrate solely on themselves.
I for one have never DM'd or played in a campaign involving Sune or sunites. I think I'll have to rectify that...I know a player who'd be perfect for a sunite Cleric or Healer. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1281 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 16:26:17
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| My main reference point for Sune priests was Adon in the craptacularly written Avatar trilogy. That was not a flattering portrayal of her clergy. |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 17:25:50
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| Is that the story where a black-haired magic-user and the hook-nosed thief are mentioned? ^^ I am reading this at the moment (halfway through Tantras) and I swear those two descriptions are repeated almost every page. At least every page Cyric and Midnight appear on. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 17:30:12
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There's no particular reason to consider him typical, other than "no in the face!" thing and being somewhat flirty. Adon ended up shuffling to other pastures, after all. Of course, there got to be some vanity, and perhaps even vanity-via-humility ("I can't help it if the goddess blessed me like this!"  ) - probably more among the dedicated lay worshippers than clergy proper. On the other eyestalk, Heartwardens got a job as nice, helpful folk who dispense valuable advice. In the end, Wisdom remains the prime attribute. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 18:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
My main reference point for Sune priests was Adon in the craptacularly written Avatar trilogy. That was not a flattering portrayal of her clergy.
If I remember correctly, isn't Adon rejected by Sune after his disfigurement? That's not just an unflattering portrayal of her clergy, that's an unflattering portrayal of the goddess. She also acted quite vapid and self-absorbed during the conversation with Ao at the end, when he tells the gods they must work for their worshipers to retain power.
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"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1281 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 20:06:41
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
There's no particular reason to consider him typical, other than "no in the face!" thing and being somewhat flirty. Adon ended up shuffling to other pastures, after all. Of course, there got to be some vanity, and perhaps even vanity-via-humility ("I can't help it if the goddess blessed me like this!" ) - probably more among the dedicated lay worshippers than clergy proper. On the other eyestalk, Heartwardens got a job as nice, helpful folk who dispense valuable advice. In the end, Wisdom remains the prime attribute.
No reason to consider him typical except that he was the only Sune priest main character in the literature at that point, and the novel made a point of him being vain and flirtatious...which seems fitting for a goddess of beauty worshipper. I agree the sourcebooks do paint a better picture of the clergy than Adon did in Shadowdale the novel.
As for Sune rejecting Adon, no that was just really REALLY bad writing that Adon took his disfigurement to be a rejection from Sune, even though he knew and everyone knew the gods were not in the planes and unable to grant clerical powers or perform miracles unless they were within a very short distance of their priests. It didn't make any sense why Adon would think that Sune had rejected him given the state of the gods' powers when the event happened and his personal knowledge of the Time of Troubles. Sigh.
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 21:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
As for Sune rejecting Adon, no that was just really REALLY bad writing that Adon took his disfigurement to be a rejection from Sune, even though he knew and everyone knew the gods were not in the planes and unable to grant clerical powers or perform miracles unless they were within a very short distance of their priests. It didn't make any sense why Adon would think that Sune had rejected him given the state of the gods' powers when the event happened and his personal knowledge of the Time of Troubles. Sigh.
I liked those books. It may have been an attempt by the authors to reflect a flaw in Adon's character. I'll have to go back and read the parts about Adon to see if I share your view about his POV/the error in his interpretation on a second read. I thought perhaps there was also something in the Prince of Lies book that supported a rejection from Sune, but it's been a while so I may very well be wrong. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 25 Jun 2013 21:01:37 |
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Brin
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 02:51:43
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Adon did desert Sune due to him blaming his disfigurement on her "rejecting" him, and yes everyone including him did know that the Gods were cast from the planes and unable to do anything godly. In fact Adon earlier in the series commented that he thought other clerics were being foolish for expecting their cast out gods to still be godlike, he acknowledged that the gods had lost their power and could only do things in their close vicinity.
However Adon in the next book Waterdeep admits that it is not Sune's fault he was disfigured and that he overreacted.
Back to the topic of Sunites and Sune herself not being looked upon kindly, if I recall correctly and I am rereading the series myself at the moment, Sune in one of the last two books (where you read from the perspective of the Gods themselves) is extremely vain and self centered herself. But then all the Gods are kind of like that and is why they were cast out in the first place, that and the whole tablets thing. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 03:20:44
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Yes, Prince of Lies and Crucible:The Trial of Cyric the Mad...
We learn that save for those deities raise from mortals and Oghma (who can see it but not break free from it), all gods are madly obsessed with their area of expertise. To the point their thoughts and actions for the most part are based 90% on them.
That was Prince of Lies, in Crucible we learn that if a god does not focus on the portfolio obsessively (like how Mystra and Kel used their moral judgements more then an obsessive focus on their topics, or how Cyric seemed to ignore his by focusing on himself), they could be punished and/or replaced.
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 11:04:41
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In the little lore we have Sune is portrayed as vain and self-absorbed. That said, there is no reason to typify HER as being that way unless you just want too. I prefer to think of Sune as a very gentle and giving being and most of her clergy as seeing the spreading of love as a calling. Being vain and self-absorbed would seem to hinder this. So, I think SOME of her followers would fall into that category but most would not. It just makes more sense to me that way. I mean, how does a vain and self-absorbed person spread true love throughout the world? The ideal they should strive for would be unconditional love from/to all encountered.
That doesn't mean they will not defend themselves or others, true love often has to be fought for after all and what 'good' being isn't moved by stories in which one defends the people/places they hold dear?
In the end, it really comes down to how you want to portray your gods. Are they full of mortal failings (like the Greek gods) or do you want them to be truly 'larger than life' and shining examples of their particular portfolios?
Btw, I really really really hate the word portfolio as the general word used to describe a god's focus. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 11:07:23
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| As an addendum, did Ed portray Sune as vain in his home campaign? or was that just the author's take on her for those novels? For some reason, I don't see Ed as describing her that way. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 17:27:22
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quote:
No reason to consider him typical except that he was the only Sune priest main character in the literature at that point, and the novel made a point of him being vain and flirtatious...which seems fitting for a goddess of beauty worshipper. I agree the sourcebooks do paint a better picture of the clergy than Adon did in Shadowdale the novel.
As for Sune rejecting Adon, no that was just really REALLY bad writing that Adon took his disfigurement to be a rejection from Sune, even though he knew and everyone knew the gods were not in the planes and unable to grant clerical powers or perform miracles unless they were within a very short distance of their priests. It didn't make any sense why Adon would think that Sune had rejected him given the state of the gods' powers when the event happened and his personal knowledge of the Time of Troubles. Sigh.
It's not like they all got to be perfect. As usual, it boils down to a posteriori distribution of "what sort of people become X?" going before "how X change them?", so a Sunite being impulsive and somewhat self-centered shouldn't be more surprising than "vain and flirtatious" part. 
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
In the little lore we have Sune is portrayed as vain and self-absorbed. That said, there is no reason to typify HER as being that way unless you just want too. I prefer to think of Sune as a very gentle and giving being and most of her clergy as seeing the spreading of love as a calling. Being vain and self-absorbed would seem to hinder this.
Among many, many other things? One doesn't prevent another. There's a lot to "love", after all. As with everything else.
Which perhaps is one more factor making even a fleeting direct mental contact with such beings so taxing and mentally destabilizing that even well-trained, experienced and very determined mortals who are "really into it" without reservations rarely try it without having a very good reason. As was so amusingly demonstrated in "Elminster's Daughter". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Does Sune have Bad PR?
