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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2013 : 10:13:58
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Hello all.
This is my first scroll I have put on here, so thank you all in advice for your help.
I am the DM for my group; we play 3.5 edition rules, but play in the 4th edition timeline. (The pc was frozen in time to bring them up to date with the current time).
One of the pc is a level 28th wizard and has cast the spell hide-life. And this is where I need your help and information. I think this has greatly unbalanced the game, as the pc wizard can’t die. And continues to cast spells even at -70 hp, and using the shape change spell he turns into a solar to regen.
Is there a way to remove the hide-life spell or stop it from working like does it continue to work even if the pc is in a dead magic zone.
I don’t want to go out of my way to get it or him; I just want to restore balance.
Thanks
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 10:32:52
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mmm I take it you don't want to throw at him archenemies trying to find and destroy his hidden body part?
It seems to me the simplest and most interesting way to deal with it, expecially if the bad guys devise some convoluted way to get to that result.
At such a high level, my guess is that his enemies should have some power too.
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 11:04:53
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well he has fought a group of spell casters who dropped him to -170 so they know something is not right, and hide-life is the only spell that i cant find that would allow the pc to so this. but even throwing enemy after enemy at him he still wont die lol,
but i dont wanna kill him either i just want to balance the game out, and remove the hide-life, like why become and lich when a spell like hide-life is out there.
:) |
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 11:31:16
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I wouldn't go with a frontal approach.
I would slip the hide-life token from him with subtlety (I mean, we are talking about epic divinations for preparing the theft), and I would make sure to destroy that hide-life when he's in positive hit points.
Just curious, what body part did he remove and how does that affect him?
Btw, I wouldn't allow regenerating that body part even after it's destroyed and the hidelife spell is ended.
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Edited by - Ze on 07 May 2013 11:38:47 |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 11:41:20
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| he removed the top of his baby finger. and hide it on a good plane. |
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 11:58:42
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Off the top of my head, are the denizens of that good plane happy with hosting such a powerful necromantic object?
:) |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 12:12:02
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| in the spell it allows you to have a partial action, with is move, but in 3.5 partial actions have been removed. so is partial actions now move actions? so he cant cast spells??? confusing, |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 12:56:22
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I'm not familiar with this spell... Does it prevent all forms of death?
You don't have to kill someone to render them incapable of action. Drop a ton of rubble on him -- even if it doesn't kill him, he'll be buried under so much weight he'll be incapable of doing much more than wiggling his fingers back and forth.
Or trap him in an iron maiden, or in a water-filled box. If teleporting is a concern, there are ways to prevent that -- I believe gorgon's blood mixed in morter will prevent teleporting into or out of a structure, a weirdstone will prevent teleporting in a large area, and the dimension lock spell will, IIRC, keep someone from teleporting.
In an anime I watched, there was a guy who couldn't be killed because he could regenerate -- even cutting his head off didn't kill him. In the end (and somewhat by happenstance), he wound up covered in molten gold. When he and the molten gold hit the ocean, the gold resolidified, and the guy became a golden statue headed to the bottom of the ocean.
Or, as others suggested, go for his failsafe. What might be fun is if a local deity (local to his failsafe) takes notice, gets irked, and forces the guy to work for him, in exchange for protecting his finger!
Oh, and evil beings (particularly mortals) can still go to good-aligned planes. They just have to lay low and not be noticed by the locals. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 May 2013 13:00:15 |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 14:51:40
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yes it prevents all forms of death.
however in 3rd edition when u were reduced to 0 or less you were reduced to partial actions, ( meaning you could only move) but now 3.5 have got rid of partial actions. so what does that mean for this spell? you can do more than just move? but isnt that making the spell more powerful that it was meant to be.
i am close to killing one of my pc's in real life over this spell LOL.
help.
and how do i find the piece of his finger. to destory it.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 15:02:50
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quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
and how do i find the piece of his finger. to destory it.
Divination, (perhaps unwitting or unwilling) betrayal by someone who knows where it is, accidental discovery by a third party ("Hey, why is this random patch of ground so heavily warded?")... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 15:18:36
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| lol :) see if i do that my pc would say i am going out of my way to get him |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 16:53:38
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| Have you looked for a small group of British schoolchildren from a wizard's academy to track down and destroy the body part in question? I find they are good for that sort of thing! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 16:58:43
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| ya i asked harry is was busy |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 18:22:54
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1. Playing with 28th level PCs often turns into a big fat mess. I refuse to play in campaigns running at levels that high. It's just not fun for me. And it's a rare DM who enjoys running it and/or runs it well. But that's me. If you enjoy it, more power to you.
2. If the PC has enemies that are trying to kill him, they should try to kill him, using the resources at their disposal. Given his level, I can only imagine that the resources of his enemies are... considerable. If they are trying to kill him, you're trying to kill him and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean you the DM have a vendetta or are mean.
That said, there are two ways to deal with this problem.
1. Approach it from a rules standpoint.
-First point - I assume you're allowing 3.0 material even though you're playing 3.5? This spell doesn't exist anywhere in the 3.5 materials.
-Second point - The spell is being used incorrectly. It is not supposed to be a way to become a lich without having a level adjustment, and the player should not be as powerful as a lich. Hide Life contains specific language meant to limit its power.
The spell description states very specifically: "If you would otherwise be dead, you cannot benefit from healing and simply fall down dead if the spell is ended." The reference to healing in the spell is meant to describe healing that you would receive before hitting a negative HP total that would otherwise mean death. Once your PC hit negative hit points equal to his constitution score, he stopped being able to heal, naturally or otherwise. Regeneration is a form of healing, according to the Monster Manual definition. Your player cannot, according to the rules, benefit from the regeneration ability by turning into a Solar. This means that it is impossible for him to heal short of something like a Wish or Miracle spell. He is stuck in the negatives and will continue to accrue negative hit points. If his pinkie is destroyed or the spell ended before he uses Wish or Miracle, he dies.
The idea behind this is that the individual is NOT a lich and this is not meant as a permanent way to keep you alive in spite of all damage endured. It seems unbalanced because you're letting the PC heal when he shouldn't be able to. The way I see it, this spell is a way for a mage to stay alive even if reduced to negatives. You hit negatives, you GTFO and heal because if you don't, you need to get a Wish/Miracle, or the next time you hit an anti-magic sphere you're toast. As a 28th level mage, he probably has access to Wish, but it's still not cheap.
-Third point - Staggered in 3.5 means you can either move or perform a standard action. You cannot take a full-round action and you cannot perform a move and a standard action. Any bad guy worth his salt should be able to catch someone who is in that condition, particularly if he or she is armed with a way to bar extra-dimensional travel.
2. Try to fix the problem in-game, whether you approach the spell differently or not
-First method - Target the spell keeping your enemy alive. You say that the bad guys have noticed something is up. If they have identified that the spell is Hide Life, there are three ways to end the spell that pop into my head immediately. There are probably more.
The first is obvious - Dispel Magic. The target of the spell is "You," meaning that the PC mage is the under the effect of an ongoing spell. There has to be something anchoring him and the lifeforce in the pinkie. Dispelling a spell cast by a 28th level mage is difficult but not impossible. If he's running against comparably leveled bad guys, this may work. It comes down to the dice and how many times they try to cast it on him. If you continue to run the spell as though the PC can receive healing, the Hide Life spell ends but the PC remains alive. If you run it rules as written, the PC automatically dies as soon as the spell is dispelled.
The second is Discern Location (an 8th level spell). The description leaves some room for interpretation. If you're looking for an object, you have to have touched it at some point. If you're looking for a creature, you have to have seen him or her or have an item that belongs to him or her. I would rule that you could use Discern Location to find the pinkie because it is part of the PC wizard and still contains his life essence, meaning it's part of a person, not an inanimate object. Once the location is discerned, the bad guys go to the place in question and destroy the pinkie. If you continue to run the spell as though the PC can receive healing, the Hide Life spell ends but the PC remains alive. If you run it rules as written, the PC automatically dies as soon as the pinkie is destroyed.
The third is Antimagic Sphere. As soon as your PC mage enters it, the Hide Life spell is suppressed. If you continue to run the spell as though the PC can receive healing, the bad guys can kill him while he is in the Antimagic Sphere. Best way to make that happen is by trapping PC mage in between a rock and a hard place. Also known as a fighter and a rogue - two classes that won't be as negatively affected by attacking within an Antimagic Sphere. If you run it rules as written, the PC automatically dies as soon as the Hide Life spell is suppressed.
-Second Method - Capture. If you can't kill someone, don't bother trying. Go for incapacitation. Once incapacitated, you can do anything you want with him.
There as SO MANY ways to do this, but I'll name a few for funsies. First, your PC wizard is constantly staggered (unless, again, you continue to run the spell as though he can be healed). This means that he's slow and/or not casting spells as often as he would if he was not staggered. (Read: easier to catch.)
Dimensional anchor - ranged touch, no save. No more teleporting. Goodbye freedom.
Poison - Hide Life keeps you alive. It doesn't keep you from falling asleep. 30 guys hit him with sleep dosed arrows at once - make that save.
Instead of hitting him with a sword, grapple or use a net or any sort of martial way of trapping someone. Once you have him caught, gag him, tie him, and break his hands.
Use spells meant to take over or incapacitate his mind/body but not kill. Dominate person, feeblemind, baleful polymorph.
Once the PC is captured, the bad guys have a number of choices - torture the wizard to figure out how he's staying alive and then eliminate it, trap him in some "permanent" way (this is how the good guys always come back to kill the bad guys in movies - I don't recommend it), or cut his body into five different pieces and bury them around Toril (maybe he won't die, but he's not going anywhere...). |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 07 May 2013 19:59:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 18:33:10
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But it doesn't stop pain, does it? Shouldn't he be in agony at -170 HP? How is he casting spells with that much damage (having broken/burnt/mutilated hands should hamper casting quite a bit, not to mention damaged lips, esophagus, etc)?
Drop him into a vat of acid - then he can spend all eternity screaming. 
Anyway, you need not kill him to stop him, or at the very least, stop his casting. Even if he can't feel pain, the vat of acid (or even plain old water) will stop him from casting - you can't speak under water, and you loose a lot of dexterity as well (his gestures will be different). Even a simple silence, or poison gas (he may not be taking damage, but he is still choking on the stuff), or just placing him in a vacuum should work.
And if all else fails, you can throw him in a wood chipper. That ought to stop him from doing anything productive. Or just have some archfiends capture him... I am sure they'd love to have a new 'plaything' that can't die. He will be begging for death after a time.
Also, you can't 'Rez' that which hasn't died, so if you do do one of these tricks to him, his friends can't bring him back. Whatever state he might be in, he is still not dead, so the REZ won't work. Hell, you can even have him use/fall into a misfiring portal and have him wind up on the Sun. Not much you can do when you are ash (or less then ash, I would imagine).
EDIT: Almost forgot, any sort of magic-hampering magic should work, like an anti-magic shell, or a Rod of Disjunction. A magic-dead area (as you mentioned) is the simplest way, but you could also use a Spellchanged/magical chaos region as well (like the Helm lands from the ToT).
Also, persons using the Shadoweave are using a different kind of magic - not Arcane - so it is reasonable to say that a Shade's (or anyone else using the Shadoweave) spells are still affecting him normally. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 May 2013 18:39:34 |
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 19:53:42
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Emma Drake, pretty thorough post there, but most of all this
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
{snip}
or cut his body into five different pieces and bury them around Toril (maybe he won't die, but he's not going anywhere...).
sounds like a great plot for an adventure.
Possibly, if the defeat of the necromancer PC marks the end of this campaing (28th level, come on, just about ime), this could be the central plot of the very adventure that the same players will play with their new PCs. 
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2013 : 21:03:41
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| thank you all for your help, and thank emma drake for your ideas and information. |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 16:59:00
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this has to be the most hypocritical thing i have ever ready.
quote:
Given his level, I can only imagine that the resources of his enemies are... considerable. If they are trying to kill him, you're trying to kill him and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean you the DM have a vendetta or are mean.
quote:
Once the PC is captured, the bad guys have a number of choices - torture the wizard to figure out how he's staying alive and then eliminate it, trap him in some "permanent" way (this is how the good guys always come back to kill the bad guys in movies - I don't recommend it), or cut his body into five different pieces and bury them around Toril (maybe he won't die, but he's not going anywhere...).
i love to hear your idea of a vendetta???!!!
why ever play the game if thats the dm tactics. the idea dnd which a lot of dms have forgot about its about a bit of fun, laugh and challenage. not go out of your way to get rid of pcs cos they do like what you have or try to out smart the dm.
i got this spell and used it because i was number one target of all the powerful bad guys and then a demon prince....
unbalance is a wizard going to a dead magic island surrounded by 1000s of bad guys and a blue dragon, but i went anyway just i am the good guy and went to help a friend. but that an other topic lol
if it was a spell just to go negative (0to -10) what the point of delay death???
1) cant be dispelled or antimagic work cos its an instantaneous spell
by the way i am the pc with hide life...... and yes the npc i fight are always more powerful then me or the group.
the biggest problem too many interpretation.
the spell says "Healing does not automatically return you to 0 hit points but simply adjusts your current total upward.
If you would otherwise be dead, you cannot benefit from healing and simply fall down dead if the spell is ended"
so automatically means your natural healing does not work, magical healing is manual "if you would otherwise be dead, you cannot benefit from healing" thats the same thing about natural healing, saying nothing about regeneration, or magic healing, just none of these are automatic healing, natural healing from your Constitution and ass your under -10 you constitution doing work....... my interpretation
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 17:10:22
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I agree with your interpretation, blade.
The spell seems a bit overpowered to be less than epic, but hey.
I still think that the weakest link is the finger.
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 18:21:33
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never had a problem with the finger part, and your right it is the weak link the finger. it is very powerful, but i am powerful wizard. this spell cost more in exp then to become a lich which i cant understand where all these restriction are coming from then it doesnt say it.
dm told me to play that i can never have magical healing even if i was above 0 cos it will not work..... i said ok i went it. so here we go again, where in the spell does it say magical healing does work?? and as for natural healing works just not under -10, its that simple. which does makes sense.
its a very power spell, nothing about wish or miracle healing mentioned, as some spell do tell you when wish and miracle is the only spells that work. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 20:48:30
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quote:
Originally posted by blade020877
this has to be the most hypocritical thing i have ever ready.
To quote a movie... This word... I do not think it means what you think it means.
A vendetta on the part of the DM would be if he was trying to end you just because you annoy him. If he enjoys killing PCs for the fun of it, that would be mean. No one likes that guy. Running an NPC who wants to kill you as though he or she really wants to kill you is NOT a vendetta.
It is one of the DM's jobs to run NPCs who have goals that may contradict the goals of the PCs. Sometimes that includes the desire to kill the PCs. If every NPC that wants to kill you is soft-balling it and the DM isn't actually trying to have him or her kill you... where's the challenge in that? If that's the kind of game you like to play, that's fine. Because at the end of the day, it is about having fun. And if that's you and your DM's type of fun, have at it. But for me, part of the fun of table-top RPGs is the notion that actions have consequences and if I piss off the wrong people, I CAN DIE. (Or be captured or sold into slavery, etc., etc.) It gives more weight and meaning to the choices I make and the roleplaying in which I engage.
The point of a spell that keeps you alive once you hit negatives is... it keeps you alive once you hit negatives. Otherwise, you fall unconscious when you hit -1 and that's bad because then the bad guys can take you out at their leisure. If you hit negative con or -10 (whichever you play by) then you'd be dead. This spell gives you a chance to get away when you get in a really bad situation and heal if you're at a certain point in the negatives ("oh no, I'm at -8, I'm really glad I have this spell that kept me conscious, time to teleport!") and if you're to the point where you'd otherwise be dead, it gives you a chance to use wish or some other spell your DM might allow to restore you to health without having to die and get resurrected (which often brings with it the loss of all of your magic items). These are all Good Things. The spell is not meant to be a way for a player to never die and run around the battlefield casting spells like nothing is wrong at -1000 (to be a bit hyperbolic).
You're right about the Dispel Magic. Though not about Antimagic Field. Antimagic Field says: "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result."
In my campaign there is a house rule that certain "instantaneous effects" can still be dispelled. I understand it in the case of some spells, like Wall of Stone because you're conjuring actual stone, but in some other cases we house rule that you can dispel it. But again, that's a house rule, not rules as written, so you are correct. It's just become so ingrained that I didn't remember that it was a house rule until you brought it up.
I'm not really sure I follow your last paragraph. But I will explain what I think you're asking/saying.
"Healing does not automatically return you to 0 hit points but simply adjusts your current total upward."
This phrasing is confusing. Healing never returns a player to 0 hit points automatically. Any healing received at under 0 does, however, make the character stable (rather than continuing to bleed out/lose HP). Since the character with Hide Life is never dying, he or she doesn't stabilize, just gets the healing from the spell, thus adjusting the HP total upward. A player who uses this spell would be able to benefit from all types of healing as long as he or she doesn't dip below -9.
"If you would otherwise be dead, you cannot benefit from healing and simply fall down dead if the spell is ended."
If you hit -10, you would die without this spell. At that point, you can no longer receive healing. The spell says "you cannot benefit from healing." It does not specify "magical," "natural," or any other specific type. It says "healing." Thus, you cannot be healed. Some definitions for different types of healing in 3.5:
"Natural Healing: With a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night."
"Magical Healing: Various abilities and spells can restore hit points."
"Regeneration: A creature with this extraordinary ability is difficult to kill. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage. The creature automatically heals nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the entry."
(Besides being barred by the Hide Life spell, a player cannot take lethal damage as a PC wizard, Shapechange into a Solar, and then heal said lethal damage via the regenerate ability of the Solar. Regeneration doesn't work that way. It converts lethal damage as it is taken into nonlethal damage. The regenerating creature is then able to heal a set amount of nonlethal damage each round.)
As for Wish and Miracle, I threw those out there as a way that a player could get out of the "perpetually under -10" problem, since, according to the Hide Life spell, he or she cannot be healed. The Wish and Miracle spells have specific functions that are supposed to be broad, powerful, and up to interpretation.
All of that said, I didn't interpret the rules or suggest ways that the bad guys might deal with this problem to screw you over. I have no personal investment in your campaign or the life/death of your character, whatsoever. I just like analyzing rules. Portose_sharpe asked a question and I answered it. He can take or leave my analysis. Any conflicts that arise from it are between you and him. There's no need for you to get feisty and start calling people hypocrites. We're all friends here. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 09 May 2013 01:24:37 |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 13:57:28
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yes your right has to challenge, but he asked about getting the game back to a balance and the answer is, boil him in acid, just have some archfiends capture him... I am sure they'd love to have a new 'plaything' that can't die. He will be begging for death after a time. or 30 arrows of sleep and cut his body into five different pieces and bury them around Toril (maybe he won't die, but he's not going anywhere...)
please tell me how this is balanced????
the main reason why antimagic will not work is
Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast.
the spell was cast before going into dead magic land.
so the moment the spell was cast is on it finish a second later.
meaning there is no active spell.
the spell does not say duration permanent says instantaneous.
so how can antimagic work if no active spell????
the big problem with the spell is the details on it, they are poor and can interpretation in couple of ways.
what i meant about the healing part is:
the spell quotes
quote:
Healing does not automatically return you to 0 hit points but simply adjusts your current total upward.If you would otherwise be dead, you cannot benefit from healing and simply fall down dead if the spell is ended.
the only way a pc can only automatically heal is by constitution ( or some cases fast healing
so what is meant here is that only natural healing will not work.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 14:29:03
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quote:
Originally posted by blade020877
yes your right has to challenge, but he asked about getting the game back to a balance and the answer is, boil him in acid, just have some archfiends capture him... I am sure they'd love to have a new 'plaything' that can't die. He will be begging for death after a time. or 30 arrows of sleep and cut his body into five different pieces and bury them around Toril (maybe he won't die, but he's not going anywhere...)
please tell me how this is balanced????
Why not explain to us how it's balanced to play in a game where you and you alone simply cannot be killed, no matter what happens? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 15:00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by blade020877
the main reason why antimagic will not work is
Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast.
the spell was cast before going into dead magic land.
so the moment the spell was cast is on it finish a second later.
meaning there is no active spell.
the spell does not say duration permanent says instantaneous.
so how can antimagic work if no active spell????
I disagree with your interpretation. Magic is keeping you alive. Thus magic can be suppressed.
If you've been wandering around this dead magic island with the spell working before now, it doesn't make much sense to all of a sudden stop working, however.
The way to make the game balanced again is to make the spell work according to rules as written or eliminate it from the game. If you want it to continue to work in a more powerful way than it was intended, there are few options to create balance that don't include killing or incapacitating your character.
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"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 16:10:39
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quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
and how do i find the piece of his finger. to destroy it.
If a PC has hit Epic Levels, they probably have some very powerful enemies.
Having run an campaign that achieved Epic Levels, I don't think it's out of the ordinary for a deity to give visions to one or more of their powerful minions or the character's enemies that indicate where this hidden body part may be found.
It might be a fun campaign arc if divine allies of the PCs warn them that evil is marching on them to take away their power (or at least the power of that player).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why not explain to us how it's balanced to play in a game where you and you alone simply cannot be killed, no matter what happens?
If that's the sort of game people want to play, what does their play preference matter to you?
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 16:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why not explain to us how it's balanced to play in a game where you and you alone simply cannot be killed, no matter what happens?
If that's the sort of game people want to play, what does their play preference matter to you?
It apparently isn't the game the DM wants to play. And when the DM ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.  |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 16:46:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
It apparently isn't the game the DM wants to play. And when the DM ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
A happy DM makes for a good game, true.
That said, the DM in question is running an Epic Level game. Players with multiple immunities to all sorts of damage and effects is de rigueur.
I sympathize with portose_sharpe because it's hard as a DM to reign in players after you've allowed spells and effects into the game that end up unbalancing it.
I sympathize with blade020877, in that players who're running Epic characters (especially if they made it from Level 1 to Level 21 or higher) have been planning and building their character into something awesome.
What I don't sympathize with is any expectation that Epic NPCs should be anything less than all knowing, genius level, practically omniscient foes who can plan for, expect and counter every move the PCs make.
So it's not wrong to want an awesome Epic PC and DMs running Epic games should expect and plan for players to push the limits and then exceed them, just as players should expect enemies to hound them and absolutely exploit their every weakness.
EDIT: Hide Life is an instantaneous effect. It has no timed duration, rather it's a permanent change subject to the very specific details of the spell.
Dispel Magic will no more undo the effects of this spell than it can take away hit points given to a character by Cure Serious Wounds.
Likewise, Antimagic Sphere won't work against this spell anymore than it would work on a statue of a character turned to stone by Flesh to Stone or an increase in ability score brought about by multiple Wish castings. A lich wouldn't fall apart in one either. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 09 May 2013 17:01:25 |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 17:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I sympathize with portose_sharpe because it's hard as a DM to reign in players after you've allowed spells and effects into the game that end up unbalancing it.
I sympathize with blade020877, in that players who're running Epic characters (especially if they made it from Level 1 to Level 21 or higher) have been planning and building their character into something awesome.
What I don't sympathize with is any expectation that Epic NPCs should be anything less than all knowing, genius level, practically omniscient foes who can plan for, expect and counter every move the PCs make.
I agree 100% with you on this. I mentioned in one of my first posts that the games I enjoy are the ones in which actions have consequences and my choices actually affect the story (which sometimes, unfortunately, results in character death). Consequences aren't always negative, however, nor should they be. If you've outsmarted the bad guys, you should be able to reap the rewards of your efforts. Yes.
The point that I was trying to make in this post is not that the NPCs should be omniscient. The suggestions I gave for how the NPCs might react to this situation were based on the fact that the OP said the NPCs had already noticed that something was up. I was also under the impression from his post that they had even figured out the spell that was foiling all of their nefarious plans.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
So it's not wrong to want an awesome Epic PC and DMs running Epic games should expect and plan for players to push the limits and then exceed them, just as players should expect enemies to hound them and absolutely exploit their every weakness.
Again, I agree with you. But for some reason I'm left feeling as though you were disagreeing with me... |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 17:12:49
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hello all
i have tried to balance out the game, by saying the way i wanted the spell played, the way it was meant to be played in 3rd edition in which when you dropped to 0hp all you had were partial actions where in which all you could do was move, and since 3.5 did away with partial actions and brought in move and standard actions. so i wanted the spell played with all the pc could do was a move action
then i read the section about you cannot benefit from healing once you would be considered dead ( below -10 )with the high lighted part being the word healing, it doesn't make a differnce between magic or natural, so either was i.
so i would like to thank everyone for your input all your information and it was most welcomed.
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Edited by - portose_sharpe on 09 May 2013 17:17:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 18:38:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why not explain to us how it's balanced to play in a game where you and you alone simply cannot be killed, no matter what happens?
If that's the sort of game people want to play, what does their play preference matter to you?
I'm not commenting on play preference. I'm commenting on the idea that a PC becoming effectively immortal is balanced, but trying to counter that is unbalanced. It's coming access as "What I want is balanced, what you want is not." |
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A DM in need of some information/help
