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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 15 May 2013 : 17:30:01
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| If that were true Marcus, then we can take it one step further and state that each planet holds a certain amount of magic within it, place holders for the power of the universe, kind of like those items that bend magic with table magic. Given this then, we can more easily see the power of dred rings and their power to unmake the multi-verse. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 14:07:18
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more importantly, it resembles the actions in this latest episode of the order of the stick
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 14:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Great picture, Gray. 
It also is reminiscent of the Great Wheel
Possibly. I look at the picture and imagine a creature that was once glorious, but of which all that remains is the crumbling, fossilized remains of an extinct animal that died long, long ago...  |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 20:43:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Great picture, Gray.
It also is reminiscent of the Great Wheel
The Great Wheel - or Shell - of Fibonacci! |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 01:13:22
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One of only two murals I ever painted was of a Nautilus... in the math hallway of my old HS. Some very interesting things going on there mathematically.
The other was a copy of Escher's Mobius strip (I wanted to do the stairs, but the teacher said it was too complex) in that same hallway.
Also reminds me of galaxy, which of course also reminds me of the multiverse... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 10:29:09
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| Are the kuo-toa from the age before the Days of Thunder? |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 14:12:37
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That's a really good question. I am not up on my Kuo-Toa lore. I actually think they might have immigrated from Oerth (Greyhawk) as they have strong associations with that campaign.
Eric Boyd, though, once asked why Blipdoolpoolp, their goddess, would have the head of a lobster and the body of a human woman. I would suggest that this was not originally so. But that she transformed her lower body sometime after Ramenos transformed the octopoid, aquatic creator race into the vertebrate Batrachi. She transformed her own body in reaction to Ramenos, or as a parody of the human form as an acknowledgment of the trend that her people's destiny may now rest on land.
After this point, perhaps not long after the Batrachi arose from the waves, you may have also seen an increased migration of the Kuo-Toa from the seas to the land and into the underdark.
Note that Blibdoolpoolp is (was?) one of the last remaining inhabitants of the Fated Depths, which could mean that she was a member of the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race. Or she could have simply been an opportunist, moving into the corrupted abandoned real estate what was left of the plane after the Great School pantheon was devoured by Ramenos. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 14:36:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
That's a really good question. I am not up on my Kuo-Toa lore. I actually think they might have immigrated from Oerth (Greyhawk) as they have strong associations with that campaign.
Eric Boyd, though, once asked why Blipdoolpoolp, their goddess, would have the head of a lobster and the body of a human woman. I would suggest that this was not originally so. But that she transformed her lower body sometime after Ramenos transformed the octopoid, aquatic creator race into the vertebrate Batrachi. She transformed her own body in reaction to Ramenos, or as a parody of the human form as an acknowledgment of the trend that her people's destiny may now rest on land.
After this point, perhaps not long after the Batrachi arose from the waves, you may have also seen an increased migration of the Kuo-Toa from the seas to the land and into the underdark.
Note that Blibdoolpoolp is (was?) one of the last remaining inhabitants of the Fated Depths, which could mean that she was a member of the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race. Or she could have simply been an opportunist, moving into the corrupted abandoned real estate what was left of the plane after the Great School pantheon was devoured by Ramenos.
Another option could be that Blibdoolpoolp is a nutjob from the far realm (or possibly she was "infected" with madness from the far realm). The Kuo-Toa do have a history of going mad. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 16:49:29
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When looking at what races might be older than 30 000 years I have the urge to look at insectoid humanoids (next to saurial humanoids) as being relatively abundant on the terrestrial parts of Toril at the time. As newly rising lands would be eroded by weather, the rivers would attract sealife because of the new imput of nutrients from the newly weathering soils would pour into the oceanbanks. These estuaries would soon teem with life, giving incentive to search for new niches along the river and beyond, towards the lands. I think the smallest lifeforms would be displaced first, so the contenders of the first landlife forms could very well be insects (after plants of course). Long after the tiny crawlers conquered the new soils, amphibian predators would try their fins/legs/pseudopods/tentacles at hunting the new insects on their newfound turf.
The Kreen race (thri-kreen, formians, dromites) and Aranea are mentioned in the GHotR (granted not during the Days of Thunder) so they might have been Torillian native species that evolved from the earliest insect colonies on Torils rising surface areas some 30 000+ years ago. With Jergal looking like a human mixed with thri-kreen and spellweaver (who I think are an apex kreen race similar to the Le'Shay) traits, we have a precedant for there having been a period of dominance for insectoid races too. Spellweaver lore is quite epic in scope, and mentions them having a multiversal empire, though Toril might have been a single backwater area in their Kreen empire that got settled from elsewhere but in days long before written history. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 19:36:44
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The Kreen on Athas are described as not having any gods at all, and their divine casters tends to be druids. They do believe in a Happy Huntinggrounds-like afterlife called Dej, a circular plane of the eternal hunt; and a cold and monstrous realm called Kano, a place remeniscant of Cania of the Nine Hells. The darksun tri kreen lore also postulates that Kreen on other worlds are psionic migrants from Athas.
So its possible FR Kreen are already a strange bunch of athasian religious migrants, as they did produce a pantheon (who I assume was led by the hero/deity/chief Jergal). After Jergals ascension (on Toril) he must have governed from similar astral domains as their afterlives on Athas, Dej and Kano, making a good cause for him to build celestial planes such as the Beastlands and the Barrens of Doom and Despair. Jergal eventually outlived his own racial pantheon and, over a long period of hunting for other deities powers and portfolios, managed to secure the powerful portfolios of tyranny, death, and murder.
The climate changes and competition wrought by the Sarruhk, Dragons and Giants can be as good a reason as any for the decline of the Kreen as a race. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 19:56:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Note that Blibdoolpoolp is (was?) one of the last remaining inhabitants of the Fated Depths, which could mean that she was a member of the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race. Or she could have simply been an opportunist, moving into the corrupted abandoned real estate what was left of the plane after the Great School pantheon was devoured by Ramenos.
I ask about the kuo-toa because of that interesting legend from The Inner Planes. page 72:
quote:
It is said by some, particularly the kuo-toa, that an ancient and venerable race roamed the planes long before any other species were born. Indeed, a few even speculate that these creatures caused the multiverse itself to come into existence.
Eventually, for a reason that none can guess at, this forgotten race decided to end their contact with the cosmos. According to the stories of the kuo-toa (and other races), they sealed themselves in the depths of the paraplane of Ice. Now, some people will tell you that the so-called Sleeping Ones-if they ever did exist-are long gone. Others, however, insist that theyre simply awaiting a time when their incredible powers are needed again.
Those who claim to have actually seen the monumental creatures frozen within the ice usually make this argument. But then again, such explorers are difficult to believe. You see, the Sleeping Ones apparently inspire a sort of brain-shattering awe, and the sight of their numbing graveyard is supposed to rip a weak-minded fool of his sensibilitiesliterally. Still, if these beings are truly as big as some claim (many, many miles long), it could be that plenty of travelers have seen them from a distance but mistook them for oddly shaped mountain peaks.
This legend seems old, possibly the kuo-toa learned it from the Progenitors. If it's in the same cosmology, not just Greyhawk. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 21:04:06
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Hmmmm... that legend reminds me of the LeShay. I wonder if, in their original timeline, Toril still had a Shadow Epoch, with a frozen surface.
I have speculated that the uldra sprites (see http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a) would have been well at home in such an environment, and imagine they were the primary representative of the fey races on Toril at the time of "snowball" Toril. But maybe the LeShay are equally at home in cold climes. Maybe the LeShay had a thriving civilization during Toril's glacial period, with glittering towers that rose like icicles across the frozen landscapes, and ice-cliff palaces that dangled above the solid surface of the sea from the facets of majestic glaciers.
Perhaps they in turn brought the uldra to Toril from the Feywild. Maybe the Feywild was also frozen during this period, as might be expected of a plane that mirrors the material plane. Perhaps it was a group of surviving LeShay who have ensconced themselves in the paraplane of Ice.
Just a thought. |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 21 May 2013 23:19:03 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 21:14:39
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Another thought about Blibdoolpoolp:
I don't really think of her as a being from the Far Realms, not all crustaceans come from the Far Realms. She's weird but not weird enough for that.
But I thought another reason she could have adopted a human lower half, is that, assuming she survived Ramenos's harrowing of the Great School, maybe she bowed down to him in appeasement to save her life. Maybe she submitted, along with her people, to become servitors of Ramenos and the Batrachi upon the land. And so, as a sign of her abasement, she transformed herself from her original lobstery shape into her current visage.
Why a human instead of, say, a Batrachi? Perhaps Ramenos wouldn't let her take on the shape of a noble Batrachi and it amused him to force her to adopt the form of one of the Batrachi's slave races. Her form could have been a punishment or at least a symbol of her submission and shame.
The Kuo-Toa probably were much more plentiful on land during the time of the Batrachi. Perhaps most all the surface-dwelling kuo-toa were wiped out, along with the Batrachi, after the Tearfall event. Leaving the ones who had fled to or remained in the underdark as the only survivors of a once more populous race. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2013 : 07:06:22
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| You know, I wonder if Blibdoolpoolp was ever a consort to Ramenos, or a concubine. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2013 : 14:42:50
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Maybe she was a Batrachi weapon, like the krakentua, eventually some of them started worshipping her.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Perhaps they in turn brought the uldra to Toril from the Feywild. Maybe the Feywild was also frozen during this period, as might be expected of a plane that mirrors the material plane. Perhaps it was a group of surviving LeShay who have ensconced themselves in the paraplane of Ice.
Just a thought.
My former DM's theory was that the cold helped to slow down the infection, the madness they got from the Far Realm. And the Queen of Air and Darkness masks as Auril. I don't think that's true. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 16:43:32
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This got me thinking about a few things.
Obviously, Blipdoolpoolp's (current) form means that she had to have taken/created it after the human race arose... or does it? If the Titans/giants came first (and I HAVE theorized they may be part of the human-progenitor Creator race), then she may have taken their (body) form. We are just assuming thats a human.
Also note she isn't the only one with something along those lines - the Krakentoa appear to be octopus-headed humans.
I think both of these may be related, in that the early 'Human Creator race' (whatever form that took) may have had some religious cross-pollination with the Aquatic Creator race (whatever form that took). In fact, just as it is today, (both RW and D&D), gods change over time, and often gods of one culture become part of another (which stimulates more change, most especially in appearance).
Also, crustaceans are often described as 'sea cockroaches'... which could mean that Blipdoolpoolp originated as an insect race deity, and at some point was merged with a human/Giant (female) deity and became worshiped by sea dwellers (which must have been a very odd series of events).
If we connect humans with the giants (and also dwarves, halflings, and others) to a single 'Mankind creator Race' (which seems likely, IMO), then we should probably 'marry' the insectoid races to whatever they are closest to, although I'm not sure what that should be. Its not as tidy as I would like. I guess being an extremely primitive form, they would fit best with the Batrachi. Some sort of trilobyte-like critter being the first to evolve from/get created by the Batrachi. An experiment in 'hard' forms (seeing the skeltal structure of other creatures, and developing exoskeltons from that). Like I said, its a bit of a stretch... not really grabbing me.
Perhaps the insectoids are along similar lines as aberrations - they defy the normal 'Creator Race' pattern and fall outside of all of that. Maybe insect races all evolve naturally. I'm not too keen on that, though. Something along the lines of a 'Forgotten 6th Creator' would excite my D&D/DM juices. Natural evolution is no fun at all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2013 16:45:18 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 06:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayIf the Titans/giants came first
I don't think that's correct, from what I remember. There may have been titans on other worlds, or in the elemental planes, long before any existed on Toril, but from what I understand, (and it could be just legend or myth) the native titans and giants were the children of Annam and Othea, a primal spirit who was the personification of a mountain in northern Faerūn. I think the titans were born well into the Days of Thunder. On my timeline I show the oldest of the Jotunbrud, the titans (at least) were well established by -31,500 DR (when the titan thane Omo slew the Batrachi emperor Zhoukoudien in battle) but I don't know if they are much older (or younger) than the Batrachi themselves, who, transformed by Ramenos, emerged on land circa -33,500 DR.
The younger giant races seem to have been born more contemporaneously with Tearfall, as Giantcraft puts them as still a very new race when dragon eggs first began to hatch (-31,000 DR).
Humans, on the other hand, seem to have been around since the ice first thawed, circa -35,000 DR. And if they were around from that earliest date, I suspect they could have even predated the thawing of the ice. During the Days of Thunder, humans were "primitive and apelike, using only simple tools and living in caves." Which makes me think that those ape-like first humans of Toril could actually have been an offshoot of the yeti or taer races, or a common ancestor of all three. That's just speculation, but I don't see any support in lore to connect human origins with the giant races.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustaythe Krakentoa appear to be octopus-headed humans.
That's very humano-centric thinking. Why not kraken-headed LeShay or Batrachi? I'm not sure there's much to link krakentua with a human origin either. From what I can tell, they were dark servitors of the former Great School gods (or at least the evil deities of that pantheon.) Or possibly they emerged to fill the void left in their wake, coming to inhabit the plane of the Fated Depths after it became corrupted following the death of the Great School. In the Kara-Tur Monstrous Compendium, they are referred to as "powerful demon spirits." But I think this is a misnomer. I seriously doubt they are any species of demon. Although, they could easily be a fiendish race, and are certainly chaotic evil outsiders.
Hey, what about this for an origin? What if they were created by Ramenos when his transformative magic was extended to his kraken followers? Now that's a thought... On the medium-sized, octopoid, aquatic creator race, Ramenos' epic magic transformed them into the frog-like Batrachi. But he surely had some kraken followers. Maybe his magic affected the giant krakens in a radically different way, transforming them into 80 to 100 foot tall giants with a humanoid body so they could walk on land too.
Heck, he might even have transformed them at a later date, specifically as a weapon for the Batrachi to use to fight back against the titans.
In fact, it need not have been Ramenos that transformed those first krakens into Krakentua. Perhaps it was Blibdoolpoolp who transformed them (which might explain why their lower bodies look more human) or Batrachi thearchs, using a variant version of Ramenos' original spell.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayAlso, crustaceans are often described as 'sea cockroaches'... which could mean that Blipdoolpoolp originated as an insect race deity
Not sure that insects would have existed until the Days of Thunder, after the water receded and not until the ice melted when it warmed up enough to support them. Crustaceans would have been well at home in the Blue Age or even in the icy depths beneath the ice in the Shadow Epoch. I therefore find an insectoid origin for Blibdoolpoolp to be doubtful.
I think people are overlooking the mundane. I've heard far-realms mentioned and transformed insect god. But what if she was simply just the primal spirit or beast lord of lobsters? Maybe she had a humble beginning until her spirit was twisted by Ramenos into a cruel parody of her more "beautiful", natural form.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayIf we connect humans with the giants (and also dwarves, halflings, and others) to a single 'Mankind creator Race'
I am not comfortable with that. As I said above, I think humans predate the giants by a lot. I don't see the origins of giants and humans as connected at all. Dwarves, maybe. There's some core, 4e lore to support that, though no Realms lore that I am aware of.
The first dwarven settlements don't show up in the Realms until around -16000 DR. Perhaps they "woke up" some time before they were noticed. So their origin date could have been a little further back than that, but probably not much. Maybe the first few dwarves awoke in the Yehimals a millenium or two prior to the time they first began to be noticed around -16,000 DR.
Hmmm.. that could (possibly) put their origin around the time of the Sundering in -17,600 DR. I wonder if the Sundering could have played any roll in the Dwarves coming to Toril. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 22:26:29
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With formians invading mechanus during early 3ed introduction, we have a precedent for bug-people invading other worlds. So I think I prefer the shaaran Thri-Kreen, underdarks Formians and Abeil and the unfathomable spellweavers to be bug-people on fearun as interlopers / invaders, but from invasions that were done way back and that proved largely unsuccesful in the end (or the beginnning of the Days of Thunder in this discussion).
As for earliest landscape and how it looked differently before the Days of Thunder, one can go several ways to spice it up. I propose several mountain chains being the first to give up lands to start habitations. According to this map, these mountain peaks would reveal themselves in order:
World Pillar Mountains
The Great Anvil (a humongous plateau)
Spine of the World
Novularond (above the Yal Tengri/Great Glacier)
Orsraun Mountains
The ancient peaks of the World Pillar Mountains or Wu Pi Te Shao to be the very first land on Toril after the Blue Age, revealing themselves first as a series of vulcanic islandchains with razor shearlike cliffs. The storms above of the purple seas batter relentlessly at the rising basalt, metal and obsidian pillars, shattering them surely but slowly, forming great coarse dunes of obsidian glass, shaped at first by the seas. Rising ever higher, with rivers carving more and more soil from the canyons of basic elements of the earth isles sides, floodplains around the islands would connect and allow the lands of for example Nog and Kadar to form.
Here the clime could be very humid and hot in summers, as the volume of air above water maintained a steady temperature on the land. The elevated areas would be extremely devoid of water, as little could prevent erosion from efficiently channeling water to the seas, but would be dotted with metals and minerals exposed to the sky. The bay areas in front of large slowmoving rivers could be teeming with life, especially sulfide emitting plankton and bacteria, giving the seas their purple color and the smell of rotten eggs.
I can see why both air (genies and spirits) and sea creatures of these times would want to colonise these mineral rich areas. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 14:31:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
By the way, I just stumbled across this cool photo of a giant ammonite shell (fossil)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ironammonite/104392973/
I knew it rang a bell, but I found the reference only today.
In Skullport, there's a LN mind-flayer cleric of Oghma who dwells in a nautilus-shaped house.
As an Oghmanite, he might be wise in the lore of sea mollusks as well as of mollusk-shaped iconography, either sacred or profane.
His name is Sangalor of the Secrets.
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2013 : 01:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The Kreen race (thri-kreen, formians, dromites) and Aranea are mentioned in the GHotR (granted not during the Days of Thunder) so they might have been Torillian native species that evolved from the earliest insect colonies on Torils rising surface areas some 30 000+ years ago. With Jergal looking like a human mixed with thri-kreen and spellweaver (who I think are an apex kreen race similar to the Le'Shay) traits, we have a precedant for there having been a period of dominance for insectoid races too. Spellweaver lore is quite epic in scope, and mentions them having a multiversal empire, though Toril might have been a single backwater area in their Kreen empire that got settled from elsewhere but in days long before written history.
I looked through my copy of GHotR and saw nothing about this Kreen race mentioned? What page is it on? |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2013 : 15:06:35
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Aranea are mentioned on page 40 of the GHotR, where the lycanthropic arachnids are created by a caliph-mage from Calimshan as special operatives that are capable of infiltrating drow armies. I think he used native wood spiders as a base for enhancing into the sentient race they will become. Aranea are also mentioned in Selvatarms writeup in Demihuman Dieties, where the new godling functions as hero for their people during his early years of adventure on Faerun.
The 'Kreen are just a term I use to gather the meriad of insectoid humanoids in a single word. Thri-Kreen are not mentioned in the histories of the Realms, but they are found the Shaar (particularly north of the Toadsquat Mountains) and in the Vilhon Reach (between the tribes of wemics and loxo on the Shining Plains). I propose that Thri-Kreen on Abeir-Toril are interlopers, but have a long history on the realms and could trace their origins to the xixchil (Monstrous Compendium: Spelljammer Appendex II), the spelljamming subspecies of thri-kreen. Those xixchil are only a small part of an ancient spelljamming empire mostly governed by spellweavers (monster Manual II, page 187, dragon 338). Xixchil are THE body modification specialists of the Spelljammer universe, capable of grafting weapons and gems into their exoskeletons to enhance their prowess. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2013 : 17:20:43
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I was under the impression, as well, that the Thri-Kreen are interlopers, possibly brought by spelljammer to Toril. I don't think they are native. I found evidence for when the Loxo came, but when I started searching (and I didn't search all that hard) I couldn't find a reference one way or another.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Thri-Kreen were brought in by spellweavers, who are also interlopers. If I recall, Jergal is an ascended spellweaver. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2013 : 17:26:43
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In the thread about the oldest living things on Toril, a treant was suggested as being a contender. This would make for a good case for treants to be some of the first pioneers to venture out on dry lands. They'd make an excellent early 'terraforming' culture, who'd be responcable for stabilising large tracks of land for their nonsentient tree-kin.
What if the 'natural succession' of treant life on Abeir-Toril happened during the thawing days of the Shadow Epoch? The first lands (the highest current day mountainpeaks of the Wu Pi Te Shao, Spine of the World, Orsraun and the Great Anvil in Zakhara) emerged in the darkness of the first few years of the shadow epoch. But as soon as the lights of the new sun graced the lands, plantbased life could have organised and eventually evolved into the plantbased species we know of now. Treants, myconoids, shambling mounds, tendriculos, shriekers and other prototype-plant creatures would roam the new lands, stabilising the local areas into verdant tracks of land. Eventually amphibious and terrestial life would find ample feeding grounds in the terraformed areas the plantbased cultures created. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2013 : 06:04:41
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I had once written this story in another thread (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14937) about a similar idea:
The Myth of Emmantiensien:
When the primordial Asgorath hurled the ice moon Zotha down upon Toril, it carved a mortal wound into the heart of the One Land. The life blood of Chauntea welled up to fill the great gash, forming the waters of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Fires raged across Faerūn, and ash rained from the sky to veil the face of Chauntea, enveloping her in a cold, grey shroud.
Her mother thought her dead and wailed in grief. She wept so hard that the tears of Selūne still hang in the sky to this day. But Chauntea was not yet dead; her children below struggled to preserve her.
The Aearee cast their magics to warm the world and nurture what life remained. And the LeShay, the fey creator race, prayed to the World Ash. And the Great Tree answered them, sending Emmantiensien into the world.
Some say he strode through a portal from the Feywild. Others say he sprang from a tiny acorn, growing to a fantastical height in all of a moment. Sages argue whether he was 300 feet, a mile or even seven miles high, but they all agree he could stand astride the Demlimbyr with plenty of room to spare between his massive, burled trunks.
For seven years the treant god walked the face of the One Land, from one shore to the other, and back again. With every breath his powerful lungs inhaled the ash and smoke and filtered it from the air. The transpiration from his leaves sprinkled mist on the ground below, a sweet balm to soothe the burnt skin of Chauntea. Seeds fell from his branches like hail; oak, and ash and poplar. Mulberry, sycamore, pine and baobab. Mangrove, cedar and laurel; he scattered the fruit of every living tree. With each step, his roots broke the crust of the soil, piercing holes to receive the seeds. And at his passing, a swath of green erupted in his wake.
For each forest he restored, the Treant Lord dropped a single, golden acorn that would grow into an arakhor, a treant-father, called great protectors by the elves. The seeds of the arakhora, in turn, spawned the first treants tenders and guardians of the forests.
At the end of the Long Night, after seven years of ice and ash, the sun dawned again across the face of the One Land. Chauntea awoke from her deathly slumber, and the world rejoiced. When the first red rays of morning touched his leaves, the Tree Lord began to grow. Ten leagues high, a hundred leagues high, a thousand leagues high; Emmantiensien grew up into the sky until the great canopy of his leaves cast one final shadow across the continent and obscured the vault of heaven.
By the time that night had fallen, Emmantiensien had grown so tall that the top of him vanished into the Sea of Night and was lost among the stars.
Stars! They could see stars again! The children of Toril marveled at the stars that shined from between his branches like glistening drops of dew upon his myriad leaves.
By midnight, his colossal, gnarled feet uprooted themselves and began to draw up into the sky. When next the sun rose, the Lord of All Trees was gone. He had pulled his great trunks up behind him into the night, and was never seen again to walk the land.
Even today, when you gaze up at the night sky, you can see him still up there, set among the stars as the constellation Arshanta, which means "great tree" in the elven tongue. There he rests, his trunks rooted deeply in the soil of night, drinking deep the silver moonlight and basking in the glow of stars. From the vault of heaven he stares in adoration at the face of Chauntea and watches over her, patiently, ever vigilant, until the end of time.
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I'm repeating that story here because, maybe that was not the first time that Emmantiensien walked the One Land. Maybe he had done something similar when the Shadow Epoch ended, the ice thawed and the barren dry land was exposed. Surely something magical happened to green the land so quickly.
Unless, of course, the sun came back fairly quickly after the Shadow Epoch began, and it just took thousands of years for the ice to melt enough for the land to green up. I don't think we can rule out a slow but natural greening process. But still, a magical explanation is a lot of fun to ponder. |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 05 Jun 2013 06:07:57 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2013 : 13:36:22
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You gave me an idea...
The first sun was destroyed, but we have no real details beyond what the two (slightly differing) myths say. In the D&Dverse, maybe Suns are just gigantic portals to the Realm of Fire, and when it was destroyed, it was shattered into millions of pieces.
Perhaps Emmantiensien (or who/whatever) used the energy left in these pieces to keep the world 'alive' for a brief time, until a new sun was 'born'. Then he set them in the Crystal Sphere itself - those are the stars we see from Toril (which shoe-horns well with the SJ lore about them).
"And when Emmantiensien was done placing the Sun-Crystals into the Sphere, he had but a handful left, and with those he ascended into the Heavens, becoming the constellation Arshanta"
I still think Selune's Tears are a now-gone heavenly body - a second moon - and that the destroyed sun is something else entirely (like the example I provided above). However, as allegory, your legend works just fine. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2013 : 14:27:32
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| Oh, that is only written in the style of a myth. Selūnes tears, in my mind, are really the shattered remnants of the moon Zotha that have achieved a stable orbit as Trojan asteroids [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_(astronomy)] in the Lagrange point trailing Selūne's orbit by about 60 degrees. |
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2013 : 23:08:11
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quote:
from Powers & Pantheons
The most advanced of the creator races all mastered magic enough to begin interplanar travel and to create gates linking what has come to be called Realmspace with other crystal spheres - but so did the inhabitants of other spheres, and waves of migration into Toril began.
Dwarves, treants, elves, and illithids (in that order) appeared in Faerun
Bold mine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that treants came at a later stage, if we give credit to the "somewhat rambling" introduction to the Encyclopoedia Deifica by Acolyte Jenelle Einhorn.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2013 : 07:15:04
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You are correct that the book says that. It says something similar in the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, in the History section:
With the discovery of magic by the creator races, talented individuals began experimenting with planar travel, contacting and visiting other worlds. Through these early portals came natives of these other worldsdwarves, treants, elves, and mind flayers, in that order. . . . Goblinoids migrated to Toril in small waves when they discovered portals, and humans from other worlds migrated to places such as Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara.
Now, if you notice, dwarves and treants precede the arrival of elves. And we know the elves arrived a very long time ago. Grand History of the Realms supports the first appearance of the dwarves in the Yehimals around -16,000 DR, if I recall. But the elves arrived long before that. So what to make of this?
It could be that the arctic dwarves arrived way back during the Shadow Epoch, or soon after. They would have been well suited to the glacial climate. That would neatly solve that problem.
Or, Moradin could have come to the aid of Chauntea and Selūne in the War of Light and Darkness between Selūne and Shar. Shar brought in fell forces, fiendish mercenaries and dark advisors from other worlds via her access to the plane of Shadow. In turn Selūne used the Infinite Staircase (which starts in her divine domain) to similarly travel to other worlds, and it seems likely she brought in wise Oghma, Sylvanus, and Goibhne the Smith (now better known as Gond) from the Celtic pantheon (the D&D Celtic pantheon), as well many other gods such as Tyche, Corellon and Moradin, and I suspect even Annam, who may have been seduced over from the side of the Primordials by the charms of Chauntea's handmaiden, a primal mountain spirit known variously as Sonnhild in ancient Thorass, Deronain in Auld Dwarvish and by some as Othea.
After the War, all the various allies (on both sides) were granted immigration rights to Toril as part of the bargain for their aid. That's how demons and devils and all the fiends from the Great Wheel came to find purchase in the, previously, fiend-free Realms cosmos. And I suspect that Moradin was allowed to bring in a colony of dwarves as well.
Now, there may have been an active colony that thrived for a time very early on and died out, but if I recall, there's a myth that Moradin crafted the clan fathers (and probably mothers too, they all have beards so it's hard to tell) of all the dwarves in his soulforge and placed them deep in the earth beneath the Yehimals, where they woke up one day and dug themselves out and started the dwarven race.
Even though they were first noticed around -16,000 DR, I would surmise the first few of them emerged, woke up (or immigrated) at least a little bit earlier than that, and maybe a lot of time passed before they were noticed. An intriguing possibility is that they appeared around the time of the Sundering in -17,600 DR. I don't know if they actually, did, but I am intrigued by the possibility.
But, it could also be that Moradin planted his dwarf seeds or larva or suspended animation dwarves millennia prior, around the end of the War of Light and Darkness, and that he simply waited until the right time to wake them, which was apparently sometime around or before -16,000 DR.
All this to say, that, while the book you quote does say what it says, I don't think that at all precludes the treants having immigrated to Toril at such an early date. I am sure they would have been around during the time of the Aearee, after all, they would certainly have had the opportunity to immigrate from the Feywild during the time that the fey creator race, the LeShay were most active, and that was at least as far back as -34,000 DR (when they are first mentioned in the Grand History of the Realms chronology) if not earlier. |
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Before the Days of Thunderthe Prehistory of Toril
