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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jun 2013 : 17:14:27
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I think - in a much broader sense - what Gray is trying to say is that a definition of ANY term from tens to hundreds of thousands of years ago could be something quite different then how we define the term today.
For instance, we know for a fact that most giant races have two 'tiers' - a Planer (greater) one, and the sphere-specific 'mortal' ones. Thus, we may conclude that the term 'giant' meant something a bit more... primordial... once, but now it means "anything remotely human of larger-the-human size". Much the same can be said of Dragons (the 'originals' were probably all of the Celestial/Exarch variety, and now we have lesser/terrestrial varieties).
So when an ancient myth/legend speaks of 'giants', we may think of our modern (D&D) giants, but the original storyteller could have meant something more akin to a Primordial (Titan). Same goes for dragons, or most anything else.
Thus, the 'Human Creator Race' probably bears some resemblance to the modern race of mankind, but it would also resemble several other races (including giants, dwarves, etc). Did Batarachi even have a 'true form'? Were Fey ever anything more then pure energy able to create physical manifestations? Are the sarrukh we know of truly the Sauroid race... or just a single offshoot of the originals? And forget about the Aeriee... we have no idea what they may have looked like (Raptorrans? Dodo birds? A flying jellyfish?)
So when a legend speaks of 'treants', they may be talking about something wildly different (like the arakhora) then the 'lesser' varieties we know today. Thus, we may have had /'treants' before we had the modern version of them, and because of that, any reference to a 'first appearance' of something is actually open to interpretation.
A prime example: When did 'Man' first appear on Earth? Find two scientists who agree. You have to first define what 'man' is, and that is open to interpretation on so many levels (cultural/biological/religious/philosophical/etc). So an Elf might see a arakhora and say "thats a Treant", and a human might say, "no its not!" Neither would be wrong, but neither would be 100% right. We are trying to apply modern definitions to something that has had untold aeons to evolve.
So in the end, we have plenty of room for interpretation.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jun 2013 17:18:55 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2013 : 18:31:04
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| What book has Planer giants? |
z455t |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2013 : 14:02:09
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Well, humans in D&D are the most widespread race, they live in most known crystal spheres, even in the most inhospitable planar environments, like Pandemonium. Does that mean they're old. I guess one trait of humans is that they have most adventurers and greatest variety of characters, able to adapt despite physical weaknesses. Humans and giants have the same form, like in Platonic philosophy, but humans are of the Prime, giants of the Elemental planes. Similar relation is between animals and animentals. Dwarves and humans don't have much in common, dwarven ancient history is either created by Moradin, or worms in Ymir's body, tough truly they were inspired by Norse human smiths that used arsenic bronze.
About the insects, I like the crazy idea that Abeir is Athas, Athas also started with the Blue Age. The thri-kreen could be from there, interloped through the Grey (Border Ethereal) with the xill's help, or Jergal ascended there and was kicked out. I don't think there is a human creator race, closest to what you are describing are the pyreen (like Rajaat). |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 06:24:33
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So I've been thinking, if Toril's Blue Age corresponds roughly to Earth's Silurian and Devonian ages, then perhaps the aquatic creator race thought of Dendar as an eel. Or a worm. As reptiles had not evolved yet. They didn't even have plesiosaurs or ichthyosaurs back then. Dendar would have been viewed as the nearest aquatic cognate that existed at the time, which was probably limited to worms. I'm not even sure if eels were around back then. Anguilliformes didn't even evolve until the Cretaceous.
If they also had a myth or awareness of the World Serpent, he might also have been thought of as a great worm.
That's not a bad thing, though. A giant worm could be just as scary to the aquatic creator race as any big snake. Think Dune.
Plus, they burrow in the earth, which makes them suitably chthonic as spirits for the imagery they evoke. Not Lovecraftian, that is, but I mean that in the mythological & psychological senses of powerful archetypes that rise up from out of the underworld and also from the subconscious. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 06:38:36
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You know, if the aquatic creator race had myths of a world spirit or world serpent (or world worm) his sleeping form might have been said to be an underwater mountain range that coiled around the greater part of Toril.
That mountain range, being the tallest part of the ocean floor back when Toril was a water world, probably ended up rising above the waves when the continent(s) arose.
Looking on the Days of Thunder map, in the Grand History of the Realms, I see the hint of a mountain range that extends from the tip of what looks like Chult, across Lapaliya to the Yehimals, and then around and up to the Spine of the World Mountains, and maybe there are some other mountains parts that could be included in the "serpent's" coils.
If the continents were raised by the writhings of a planetary sized incarnation of the World Serpent fighting, entwined, and coiled around the thrashing form of a similarly cosmic-scaled Dendar, perhaps those mountains are the "corpses" of their avatars or maybe just the slumbering body of the World Serpent where he came to rest after the battle. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 06:48:07
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You know, the Dendar myth may just be a metaphor for vulcanism. Perhaps as part of the tectonic shift that caused the continents to rise above the water. As the crust breached in many places, the resulting volcanoes belched ash into the sky that obscured the sun and caused, in effect, a global "nuclear" winter.
Dendar is even strongly associated with volcanoes. The myths say that one day Dendar will emerge from the Peaks of Flame in Chult to swallow the sun again.
You know, a powerful column of black ash and lava jetting up with great force from a volcano might look like a great serpent rising up into the sky.
Dendar's swallowing of the sun, may just be a metaphor for an unprecedented volcanic catastrophe that to primitive minds could not be described in any better way.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 07:44:00
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I've been thinking about Psilofyr, the Myconid god.
Is he an ascended myconid?
Or is he a primal spirit, the collective soul or psyche of one of the 5 (or so) fundamental divisions of life on Toril, the taxonomic kingdom of Fungi?
Or is he the child of Chauntea, the goddess of life? Perhaps at the dawn of life on Toril, Chauntea gave birth to 3+ children representing the kingdoms of life: Malar could represent Animalia, Emmentiensien or Silvanus (the Green Man), or Yggdrasil maybe, could represent Plantae, and Psilofyr could represent Fungi. She may even have children that represent Protista & Bacteria (or twins Eubacteria & Archaea).
Although, protists, bacteria & archaea may lack divine representation if they don't have a mind or at least an intelligence score of 3. Not sure microbes even rank a 1 INT.
Of course fungi don't typically have INT scores either, but they at least have Myconids and perhaps other fungal beings that possess an INT of some kind.
I was thinking that the Blue Age may actually map to the entire Paleozoic Era, from the Cambrian Explosion to the Permian-Triassic Extinction Event, which might be roughly comparable to when the Shadow Epoch began.
So I found this quote on Wikipedia:
It has been suggested that the Permian–Triassic boundary is associated with a sharp increase in the abundance of marine and terrestrial fungi, caused by the sharp increase in the amount of dead plants and animals fed upon by the fungi. For a while this "fungal spike" was used by some paleontologists to identify the Permian–Triassic boundary in rocks that are unsuitable for radiometric dating or lack suitable index fossils, but even the proposers of the fungal spike hypothesis pointed out that "fungal spikes" may have been a repeating phenomenon created by the post-extinction ecosystem in the earliest Triassic.
So if the Shadow Epoch involved a massive die-off of plant and animal life, you might have seen an initial bloom of fungal life for at least some amount of time after the sun went dark. Not sure if land was around yet at this point.
On Earth, the Pangea continent formed around the end of the Paleozoic Era. So maybe similarly, the One Land had begun to rise above the waves near the end of the Blue Age, a little before the Shadow Epoch began. Maybe it was the rising of the land that set events in motion that led to Dendar swallowing the sun in the first place.
There could have been myconids or primitive fungal beings on the land at the time — if there was any land.
Alternatively, it is not actually required for there to have been any land yet at the time, as there are plenty of aquatic fungal species. And maybe the myconids themselves began as aquatic creatures before emerging on land themselves.
Psilofyr's worship could have bloomed and flourished in the initial dark of the Shadow Epoch.
Maybe Psilofyr is Chauntea herself, as worshipped by fungal species. It's just their conception of her. Or Psilofyr could be a fragment of Chauntea that split off from her to provide service to the fungi-folk.
Whether Psilofyr is an interloper god, a primal spirit, Chauntea herself, Chauntea's son, or a fragment of Chauntea split off to guide the Fungi kingdom, it might all just be splitting semantic hairs.
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 09:15:40
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I like the idea of primitive fungal beings during the "fungal spike" period.
Could Araumycos be the last of that kind?
And I agree that Psilofyr may be the myconid representation of Chauntea (I'm a fan of pantheons simplification, and I usually assume that several gods/demigods are just one divine being, worshiped with different names in different races or places).
Edit: just to add that this thread is awesome, Gray, really. |
Edited by - Ze on 26 Jun 2013 09:17:11 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 14:52:53
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Araumycos could be anything. It is very definitely ancient, not sure if it is that old.
Araumycos could be an avatar or incarnation of Psilofyr. Araumycos could be a chosen of Psilofyr. Araumycos could be a rival of Psilofyr.
Araumycos is a cypher. It could be anything the DM wants or needs it to be. I love the mystery of Araumycos. Not sure we have enough data to draw any firm conclusions yet on him.
I am, however, suddenly intrigued with the notion of tiny, aquatic, primitive, larval myconids swimming around the ancient seas. "Merconids" if you will. Perhaps they would have more streamlined caps, and the folds of their lamellae would serve as actual gills. Their mycelial threads might thrash and undulate like flagella to propel them through the water. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 17:53:54
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| I believe Ed has indicated that Araumycos acts as a kind of anchor for the Weave, in the area where it exists. That's another element to keep in mind when thinking of its nature. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 02:47:49
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Eytan Bernstein also wrote the following in his web series article for Wizards of the Coast, Psionic Races and Classes: Ghostise Halflings, Githyanki, Mind Flayers, Yuan-ti, and Psionic Bestiary
quote:
Araumycos: The massive, sentient fungus below the High Forest is possibly the oldest living creature on Faerűn. While generally peaceful, it can defend itself by employing an astonishing array of psionic powers. Its reactions are completely unpredictable; it might use a minor charm when faced with a massive attack or warp reality when a gloaming tries to eat a piece of it. Some whisper that the creature is an avatar of Psilofyr, the lord of the Myconids, but this is only a theory.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 03:42:43
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Additionally, Ed had this little tidbit to share:-
"March 12, 2004: The Hooded One here once more, carrying the words of Ed:
Prince Forge, well met! Your question concerns one of the great mysteries of Faerun -- and one, I’m afraid, that must remain largely mysterious. Eric Boyd may well be the sage who knows the most about Araumycos. All I could get out of Elminster is this:
“Araumycos is alive and sentient, but does not think as we do. It is magically bonded both to The High Forest above it and to the Weave which it in part anchors. The strong innate magic of that spot both feeds it and was the lure for those things it guards, simply by smothering them in its own body: the abandoned domiciles of ancient, now-vanished beings of several races who desired to master magic. Think of it as unslayable, un-conquerable -- and best left alone. There ARE a multitude of far easier foes and treasures in Faerun, awaiting even the most stubbornly foolish adventurers.”
Hmmm. Sounds like a ‘pay no attention to what’s behind THAT curtain’ warning to me . . .
Ed’s words end, for a moment. I’ve decided to split his answers by questioner, in case the overlong posts are the cause of display problems for others besides me. Your Hooded One will be right back." |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 15:53:34
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Truly. That is beyond epic.
Araumycos has engulfed several CIVILIZATIONS whole?
Now I need to know what they were. And when it happened. Curses!
My first guesses are it was long ago, perhaps a few thousand years after the Days of Thunder proper, and it was a major extinction event on Faerun. I can invision enclaves of batrachi, spellweavers, dark myconoids, saurials and/or humans lying smothered in Araumycos body, complete with crumbled arcane cities and artifacts of grand design. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 18:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Truly. That is beyond epic.
Araumycos has engulfed several CIVILIZATIONS whole?
Now I need to know what they were. And when it happened. Curses!
My first guesses are it was long ago, perhaps a few thousand years after the Days of Thunder proper, and it was a major extinction event on Faerun. I can invision enclaves of batrachi, spellweavers, dark myconoids, saurials and/or humans lying smothered in Araumycos body, complete with crumbled arcane cities and artifacts of grand design.
I'm inclined to think it didn't just up and swallow civilizations overnight -- I'm more inclined to think it was inexorable slow growth, with people/beings fleeing from it when they realized it wasn't going to stop. Kinda like people fleeing from rising floodwaters, or an active lava flow.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 05:49:56
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See page 211 of the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook for more details about Araumycos.
It's older than the elves. It shares the same footprint as the High Forest to which it may be magically or symbiotically tied. But Araumycos is itself immune to magic (or at least magical attacks). Araumycos has psionic abilities and has used them to defend itself. Araumycos extends 1-3 miles downwards into the Underdark beneath the High Forest. If you try to take any part of Araumycos beyond the border of the High Forest, that part dies. Araumycos ebbs and flows, sometimes dying back in areas to expose ancient ruins of ancient cities (I assume mostly dwarven, probably settlements from Delzoun, but possibly ilithid or some other city-building underdark folk?)
It also mentions colonies of fungus folk, who I take to be alive and currently living within Araumycos, just, well, exposed. I take that sentence to mean many such colonies currently live within Araumycos at any given time. This could be a symbiotic relationship. Or perhaps Araumycos exists, in part, to shelter, protect and maybe even give sustenance to fungus folk within its body. Wouldn't have to necessarily be its primary mission, but could be an important one. Especially if it turns out to be a chosen or avatar of Psilofyr. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 05:57:41
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By the way, the paragraph on page 211 of the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook, the section immediately following the one on Araumycos, captioned Giant's Chalice. It mentions that the lake is inhabited by intelligent octopi.
I would suggest that these octopi are almost certainly descendants of the original octopoid aquatic creator race, descended from those that did not follow Ramenos and did not undergo the metamorphosis into Batrachi. Perhaps they still worship the ancient Great School pantheon, or have some cultural recollection of those long dead gods. Of course that was thousands of years ago, so they may have no knowledge at all of their ancestors. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 07:21:01
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I assume that Toril’s Blue age most closely parallels Earth’s Paleozoic Era, from the beginning of the Cambrian Explosion to the Permian-Triassic Extinction Event. Or from about 541 million BC, to 252 million BC, lasting approximately 289 million years.
I like the Cambrian as a starting date, because that's when early molluscs, including gastropods, cephalopods and bivalves first appeared in Earth's history. In Toril's Blue Age, the octopoid aquatic creator race came to prominence, so that it's important that octopi could be around.
And during the first half of Earth's Paleozoic Era, Earth, like Toril, was also a water world. Earth did have land, but vertebrate animal life had not crawled out of the seas until the middle of the Paleozoic, when lobe-finned fish began to venture onto land in the Devonian, becoming amphibians. Amphibians evolved into primitive reptiles in the Carboniferous, and by the end of the Permian you had a diverse speciation on land including synapsids, cynodonts, and early archosaurs. The Permian also saw the return of reptiles back to the oceans as mesosaurs, the first marine reptiles.
I don't know if any land pushed up above the waves by the end of Toril's Blue Age, or if the Blue Age was exclusively marine. By the end of the Paleozoic Era on Earth, Pangea had formed. I suggest that the One Land began to form by the end of the Blue Age, and may have been around for a little bit before the world iced over. In fact, I can think of a zillion theories where the rise of land might be linked to or even the cause of the Shadow Epoch. I'd like to assume there were, at the very least, if not a proto-continent, then some islands around for vertebrate life to evolve on by the end of the Blue Age.
Earth's Paleozoic Era ended with the Permian-Triassic Extinction event which killed off 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species. The causes for the extinction are not known but include such theories as climate change, meteor impacts, release of methane into the atmosphere, coal fires, and other catastrophes.
On Toril, instead of the Permian-Triassic Extinction, the sun is swallowed by Dendar, causing the Shadow Epoch, which I suggest most closely parallels the Marinoan Glaciation during Earth's Cryogenian period, a time also referred to as "Snowball Earth." The Marinoan Glaciation lasted from 650 to 635 million BC or about 15 million years long.
I am going to assume, for the basis of conjecture, that Ed Greenwood's statement about the geographic age of Toril is correct. To reiterate, he said in his November 1, 2006 post that “As for the geological age of Toril, we don't know for sure. However, I can say that the eldest elves and dragons who've considered the matter, and the best-informed human sages ditto, all tend to hold opinions that suggest Toril is twice as old as the Age of Thunder... or perhaps a LITTLE less.”
If that's accurate, then I guestimate that the geological start date for Toril would be around -71,375 DR. Or we could round to -71,000 DR to account for the "LITTLE less."
Assuming that the suggested evolutionary timeline advocated by Toril’s sages, via Ed Greenwood, is correct—and that’s a big assumption; Toril’s evolutionary history may have taken millions of years as did Earth’s, we don't really know for sure—but assuming it’s correct, then that would mean it took Toril less than 36,000 years to accomplish what for Earth required about 304 million years.
Let's round down to 30K years, allowing 5,000 years slack to account for an evolutionary period that was comparable to earlier ages of Earth's history, when life was limited to microbial life. A ratio of 30 thousand years to 300 million years suggests an evolutionary correspondence of 1 Toril year to 10,000 Earth years. That assumes a 1 to 1 mapping, and not a logarithmic scale.
So, 15 million years, becomes 1,500 years, which puts the Shadow Epoch glaciation from roughly -36,000 DR to -35,000 DR (give or take).
At 289 million years for the Paleozoic Era, in Toril time, that would be about 28,900 years, which gives us a rough dating from -65,400 DR to -36,500 for the Blue Age, leaving about 5,600 years to play with, either at the beginning of Toril's history to account for periods comparable to Earth's earlier stages, or on the hind end that could account for a longer period during or after the Shadow Epoch.
I cannot stress enough that this is all just ballparking, just back of a napkin estimating. Using a different correspondence ratio could lengthen or shorten the Blue Age. Likewise the Shadow Epoch. Using a logarithmic correspondence would change things up further. And that's assuming that Earth and Toril's geologic histories are even comparable. Assuming a different age for Toril altogether would throw all these conjectures out the window, but there's no other age estimate to work with, so despite all the many variables and assumptions, this is my best guestimate at the moment. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 07:54:55
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Beast Lords & Mechanisms for Evolution in a Magical World
Regardless of scale, such a 10,000 to 1 ratio suggests that life proliferated and evolved in Toril’s magic-based universe in fundamentally different ways than are allowed by the laws of physics in our own universe.
But that’s not to say there aren't any parallels. There is an idea in evolution called “punctuated equilibrium” which holds that species stay basically the same for long periods of time until intervening events and environmental changes cause periods of rapid evolution and species diversification.
We have lots of evidence in Earth’s own timeline of such evolutionary “explosions” of life, the Cambrian explosion at the beginning of the Paleozoic era being a very good example.
I think there’s evidence of similar such evolutionary stimuli on Toril, that may have been propelled by magical forces and events. A good example may be the rapid evolution of small proto-dragons and drakes into true dragons following the events of Tearfall circa -31,000 DR. It is thought that a magical spell, or radiation, or side-effect from the primordial Asgorath’s crashing of the ice moon Zotha into the Sea of Falling Stars region may have been the impetus for the transformation.
Similarly, we know of the transformation of the Drow, and also the transformation of the octopoid aquatic creator race into the vertebrate, amphibious Batrachi. Three examples of rapid species change by magical means.
The frequency and amplitude of such intervening magical events or catastrophes (RSE's) might have shortened the duration between speciation events in the punctuated equilibrium model, and the magical forces involved may have magnified the rate, extent, and scope of such rapid speciations when they occurred.
I would suggest that there are several other mechanisms which may have caused more subtle, but similarly dramatic changes in Toril's species over longer periods (a few life times) that may have gone unnoticed because they had no noticeable, immediate cause, or alternatively involved dramatic magical events that were not documented and of which knowledge has not survived to the present age.
Some obvious mechanisms are radiations from the weave itself or "raw magic," or other mystical sources such as faerzress, or naturally occurring portals from the elemental planes or even the far realms radiating mystical energies that changed species.
We can't exclude the possibility of a lot of life having migrated through portals or planar rifts. In the same way that newly formed islands, or ones that have been scoured clean of life by volcanoes or tidal waves, rapidly acquire ecosystems by spores and seeds carried on the wind or dropped by birds, insects and mice rafting in on drifting flotsam. There is plenty of evidence of interloper species arriving by portals. So there may be a kind of natural panspermia that populates worlds through planar links.
Experimentation by “creator” races is another possibility.
And interbreeding between members of even vastly different species in a magical universe seems much more likely to produce viable offspring that would be ruled out by the vagaries of DNA and combinatorial genetics as proscribed under the laws of our own physics. How did the first peryton come about anyway...
And we cannot rule out divine creation. But this need not be the only or even the primary driver of life creation. It's a possibility but we can get to the same place without it.
For instance, perhaps on Toril, evolution is not strictly Darwinian. There could be slight variations in the laws of natural selection and mutation that propel more rapid changes in Toril's species. Call it the law of supernatural selection (paranatural? preternatural?) Perhaps evolution work's closer to Lamarck's theory, for instance, rather than Darwin's rules.
I have another theory which I like to call “primal bootstrapping.” We know that the collective spirit or soul of species on Toril produces primal spirits, some referred to as Beast Lords. My theory is that after a species reaches a certain critical mass (probably about the same critical mass as required for it to be called a species) the collective soul or psyche of those organisms generates a primal spirit, or beast lord, that guides that species in positive ways — directing evolution and providing an evolutionary advantage that exerts magical force on successive generations. A force which subtly pressures the species to get “better” or adapt to fit its environment. Sort of a divine Lamarckianism.
These beast lords, or primal spirits, need not be exactly sentient or sapient. Perhaps they are analogous to a collective intelligence, or soul, in the same manner that an ant colony is collectively smart and directed in a way that none of the individual organisms are individually endowed.
I find myself intrigued with this notion. It’s been brewing in the back of my head for years. But I think it could be a powerful mechanism that might help explain how life on Toril evolved, spread and diversified so rapidly across the face of Toril in only a fraction of the time that it took life on Earth to do so. The existence of such beast lords I think is strong evidence supporting this theory. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 12:54:09
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I am now wondering if your 'Primal Bootstrapping' theory is not something that may have developed from conversations we had on the WotC forums awhile back; I've had similar ideas but called it the 'species overmind'. Since I know my own theories (of just about everything D&D) began with excellent conversations I had with many folk on those boards, my assumption here is that this was something I picked-up from posts of yours (so long ago now I can't remember precisely).
I've connected it to other theories of mine, concerning both the scientific and magical/planer aspects of the universe - that everything consists of smaller 'particles' (no great leap there), and that these particles generate patterns of energy, be it solar winds within a star system, or the way a human brain works. Wahts the difference between cells inside a brain, and billions of people on a world? If anything, humans should be able to generate a higher-order Overmind (god?) then simple cells could.
So deities would emerge from this 'community mind' (spontaneously or through ascension... which is really two sides of the same coin), and Over-gods perhaps emerge from community minds of deities (and so on and so forth). Thus, instead of having higher-order beings always being involved in the creation of lesser-order beings, maybe it is far more synergistic then in previously developed models. I don't think ALL cosmic beings came about this way - it had to start somewhere - but I definitely feel that deities evolved this way.
Now, for some other musings...
I have found, with my limited, self-study of evolution and biology that amazing things have emerged through evolution - things that can almost be called 'magical'. We have barely touched the surface on the senses other species might have (since it is nearly impossible to conceive of a sense we do not have). I have also learned that evolution happens far more quickly then scientists used to believe, if the right stimuli are present - life will find a way.
So if we apply our RW knowledge of various sciences to a magical universe (which ours might be, but thats a whole 'nother line of reasoning), then it seems entirely possible that in a setting where magical spells exist, creatures might develop abilities that are 'magical', which D&D terms 'supernatural'. So not every creature had to be the end-result of magical experimentation - many could merely be mutations that have naturally evolved in unnatural circumstances. For instance, an ancient species/creature which has had to deal with magical catastrophes repeatedly might develop a a natural resistance to all magic.
Think of how biological viruses behave: They become resistant to various drugs and forms of treatment over time because they mutate to become resistant. If we didn't have our science to fall back on, would that not appear to be 'magical'? If several civilizations tried to stem the growth of Araumycos over the course of several millenia, does it not stand to reason that it would become immune to magical attacks? In a magical universe, magic IS natural, and therefor becomes part of the natural processes (like evolution).
Could it be that dragons are so darned smart and powerful because so many species have warred with and hunted them? From the Elves and Dwarves to the Giants, and everyone in-between? Dragons might be the ultimate predator just because we made it that way (in much the same way that science has created super-viruses). What sort of abilities could a creature develop if it had an unlimited palette of abilities to choose from? And where do we draw the line between science and fantasy? Something is impossible/fantastical until we discover it to be real, and then we explain it away with science... so whats the difference? Why couldn't an ability like (natural) invisibility simply be an extension of a psionic, Jedi-like mind trick of "you don't see me"? Why wouldn't that be possible even in the Real world?
The only difference between science fiction and science fact is time... in time, we discover how to do all those amazing, 'super-science' (magical?) things. A simple Bic lighter would seem pretty damn magical to a medieval person. Thus, evolution should NOT be about what we humans have already discovered or think possible - we find species that defy logic constantly - it should be about what we can imagine, and beyond.
Because thats how evolution works - it 'does magic' all the time, every minute of every day. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jun 2013 12:56:05 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 21:52:50
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I agree partially that animals can have spirits, similar to Okku from Mask of the Betrayer, but other come from animistic beliefs. I think that the Uthgardt or Yuir totem spirits formed when humans had more ''primitive'' ways of worship. With civilization animism sometimes evolves into pantheism, that possibly happened to the Mulhorandi powers, but on another world, or they absorbed the beast spirits like the petitioners.
Also why should the Cambrian parallel be the starting point, the Precambrian environment would be ideal for primordials and elementals, the Permian extinction their greatest attempt to take the planet back. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 23:16:06
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I would think that all species have a collective soul/psyche/spirit that guides/guards/influences them in subtle ways. Whether that spirit manifests an individual personification as a Beast Lord may depend on how much charisma that spirit, or the species collectively, possesses.
Primal spirits do not get their power through belief. Their power arises from some facet of the natural world. Beast Lords derive their power from the collective psyche/soul of their species, and that power waxes and wanes with the fortunes of their species. A Beast Lord's individual power, then, is tied to the success of his species, which is strong incentive for him to protect/direct/influence his species to be the fittest for their ecological niche, and to be fruitful and multiply.
Godhood involves divine power invested by belief, a concept I like to call "numen." Divine rank is a measure of how much numen a god possesses or can muster. Numen is basically similar to the concepts of mana, residuum, incarnum, or other magical resources that one can draw on or channel to produce magical effects.
Divinity is really a template that a being acquires. Any creature or thing can ascend to godhood. People, fiends, primordials, animals, spheres of annihilation, even a potted plant.
I think many beings of power that started out as something else may have ascended to divinity through worship. They picked up a god template from having mortal believers. Thus, primordials like Ubtao, Akadi and Kossuth rank as gods. Certain fiends, like Asmodeus and Gargauth can become gods. And certainly primal spirits can acquire numen. Eldath is a good example. A primal spirit of ponds and springs; through worship she became a demigod.
To the extent that certain Beast Lords have been worshipped by humans or revered by sapient individuals of their own species, they may also acquire a god template with some level of divine rank.
These beings of power may already be powerful in their own right, they may not need their divine rank to manifest great power. And if they were already immortal, powerful beings, they could conceivably survive if their worshippers died off or stopped believing and their godhood evaporated. They draw from two wells. And the loss of access to the divine source of power would not necessarily hurt or inhibit them.
I think the elemental gods even find their divinity annoying. They would probably have just as much power in their own right without the god template bestowed on them by belief. They don't particularly like or care for people to worship them, but people seem to do it anyway, and so they tolerate it.
I don't know if all animal totems worshipped by humanoids necessarily started out as Beast Lords. Some may have. Others may have just been an individual animal that a tribe worshipped and caused to ascend. Some animal totems may actually just be an alias for more familiar gods. So I agree with you Quale, that there are multiple types of origins for animal totems that do not require them to have started as a Beast Lord. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 23:50:27
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As for your Cambrian question, Toril's Blue Age strikes me as parallel to the entire Paleozoic Era. The Cambrian period is the beginning of the Paleozoic Era. The Paleozoic Era is notable for the development of complex, multicellular life on Earth during which Earth also happened to be basically a water world like Toril. Different though, in that Earth did have some land, but still, the land of that era did not have any vertebrate life until well into the 2nd half of the Paleozoic, during the Devonian Period.
The Paleozoic Era is divided into 6 subdivisions or periods called the Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, and Permian Periods. After the Permian, there was a great extinction when 96% of sea life was killed off, and 70% of terrestrial vertebrates died off. The extinction that ended the Paleozoic seems like a good parallel to the Shadow Epoch event that ended the Blue Age.
Prior to the Paleozoic Era, there was only tiny microbial life, mostly bacteria and single-celled creatures in the oceans of Earth. Toril may well have had a few thousand years that replicated the Pre-Cambrian supereon, from the Hadean Eon up through the Proterozoic. And I did leave 5,600 years slack to account for that on the front end, before the Blue Age started.
I'll admit, my dating is arbitrary. It's just that there was nothing much of interest going on in the Pre-Cambrian worth talking about. In the absence of higher life-forms, the Pre-Cambrian is just too boring to allot many precious years of history to. I think 5,600 years is plenty adequate, but others might prefer more.
I see it as a great waste of time — literally (as well as literarily.) Any time that you devote to prior eras of geologic history takes away valuable time from the much more interesting period that begins with the Paleozoic Era (or the Blue Age) when you have living creatures that can form civilizations and have adventures and create stories. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2013 : 00:14:39
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Just for the sake of argument lets say that the 36,000 years (or so) preceding the Days of Thunder is comparable to the entire span of Earth's history from the Hadean Eon (beginning 4.5 billion years ago) up through the end of the Paleozoic Era. That's 4.25 billion years. Giving us a chronological ratio of Toril to Earth years of 1:118,055 years.
Paleozoic Era at 289 million years = just 2,448 Toril years.
Marinoan Glaciation at 15 million years = just 127 Toril years.
Pre-Cambrian at 4 billion years = 33,425 very boring years where nothing happens other than geology.
So, while there's a certain logical consistency in giving proportional weight to the Pre-Cambrian Era, if you do that, it takes up a disproportionate amount of the chronological time available for writing history. It would not leave enough time for the Blue Age and the Shadow Epoch to unfold in a way that is appropriate for telling stories of life in Toril's primordial seas and of the frozen world that followed. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2013 : 16:54:07
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| I don't believe that 70 000 years is the true age of Toril, but let's say that it is, that the Blue Age (FR's Paleozoic) started then. The Precambrian parallel would be before that, a fantastic version of how our solar system and planet formed, where sentience existed from the beginning. It was a vacuum at first, they needed raw matter, Selune opened gates and vortices to ether/elemental chaos, and Shar created a gravity well that caused the matter to clump. The gates brought with them elemental life, capable of surviving in such environments, it took time to form the planet as it is now, for everything to settle down so that first native life, possibly the Progenitors, could emerge in the Blue Age. So such Pre-Cambrian age would be very turbulent, not boring. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 06:15:01
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Well, I'm not saying there would be no stories to tell about that period. I concede there would be some. Don't forget the Malaugryms were around back then. There's got to be some interesting lore to explore about them.
The 71,000 dating is supposedly only the geological age of Toril. But not of Realmspace. There's no telling how old Realmspace is, or how long it was around before Toril formed. That's a sizable unknown which could included plenty of time for stories of the type you want to tell.
There's certainly plausible deniability concerning the 71,000 YA dating. I think the arguments in favor of it are these:
1) it comes from Ed Greenwood himself — so it is official lore, at least insofar as it's what Toril's sages believe;
2) Ed said that "the eldest elves and dragons who've considered the matter, and the best-informed human sages ditto" all tend to hold the opinion regarding this dating;
3) There's no other scrap of lore to suggest any alternate date; and
4) We know that Realmspace was created by Ao—although by some accounts the celestial bodies in Realmspace were created by Shar and Selűne. So evidence of divine creation would seem to be evidence against an Earth-like time-scale.
To expand a little further on the above, the eldest elves and dragons and the best-informed human sages of Toril represent a respectable collection of intelligence and learning. They are surely as sophisticated in their areas of expertise as Earth scientists are in theirs. I think that commands a great deal of deference.
Consider also that they have plenty of techniques available to them to verify such knowledge. They have chronomancy, and there are known time portals, no telling how many unknown time portals. Perhaps someone of their ilk has had personal experience of that era of pre-history.
There are also immortal beings and entities who could have conceivably been alive and personally witnessed the creation of Toril. Ao, Shar, Selűne, Chauntea, the Malaugryms, and some of the interloper gods that come from older worlds, possibly including Annam, Corellon, and Moradin just to name a few.
Additionally, in a universe where the celestial bodies were created by divine or magical forces, the cosmological timescales necessary for the accretion of a planet from cosmic dust and planetesimals, for the evolution of an atmosphere, and the evolution of life into multi-cellular organisms is just not required in the way it was for Earth. And probably not even likely. Because if there are gods waiting around for worshippers to evolve to venerate them and charge their divine batteries, you can bet those gods aren't going to just wait around for the excruciatingly long amount of time it takes for natural processes to do their job.
So, while Ed's assurance that we are unsure is certainly grounds enough to disbelieve the 71,000 year dating if you are so inclined, I tend to find the date fairly plausible. Both because I'm a trusting sort, and also because it's the only date I've got to riff on. Though, I'd certainly be willing to entertain speculation about anything in lore that would even hint at an alternative date. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 07:05:33
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Now, just throwing out another idea: We know there is an alternate timeline in which the Sylvan creator race, the LeShay, flourished. We have lore to support that the LeShay's timeline was largely eradicated by the Sundering, which radiated backwards through time. (Read their entry in the Epic Handbook, and see also Bryan's article in Dragon.)
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Toril evolved more along natural timescales, similar to the way Earth did, and that in the original timeline this took millions or billions of years. Plate tectonics caused bits of land to wander around the surface of Toril forming several combinations of continents, breaking up, and then reforming over several generations of such supercontinents. Eventually at the end of the Blue Age, the continents came together to form a relatively stable, Pangea-like supercontinent: Merrouroboros, the One Land.
Then, circa -17,000 DR, the elves cast the Sundering. The spell radiated backwards through time, rewinding time, breaking up the continents so that they could reform in the current reconfiguration. Ostensibly, the reason the spell had to radiate backwards through time is that if it shifted the continental plates so dramatically all at once, Toril would be ripped in half, and every elf, if not all life on Toril would have been killed had it happened all in an instant.
So to mitigate the vast forces involved, in the same way that you alter the course of an ocean liner by applying small forces over long distances, the spell applied force gently, backwards through time, for thousands of years, because continental plates weigh orders of magnitude more than ocean liners.
But, perhaps the Sundering never actually ended? Perhaps it kept breaking up and breaking up the continents, into smaller landmasses, and then into islands and eventually dissolving them into the oceans, until the land disappeared entirely beneath the waves.
What if the spell didn't stop there? What if it kept breaking up Toril's core until it fractured into bits which ground themselves, backwards through time, into cosmic dust.
Perhaps this process took about 54,000 years, from -17,000 DR back to -71,000 DR.
Now, stop the rewind and press the forward button. Proceeding forward through time, along the new timeline, Toril appears to form around -71,000 DR (the attested geological age of Toril). After an age, little islands begin to appear, that grow into larger islands, rising to form greater land masses, until continents appear, pressing upwards and outwards above the waves to form the current configuration of land masses on Toril that we see today.
If the LeShay civilization had it's origin in the original timeline before the -71,000 DR date, then the Sundering might have truncated Toril's timeline so that Toril didn't exist at the time the LeShay evolved or would have come to be. They were effectively edited out of existence.
But, maybe in the original timeline, some of the LeShay had colonized the Feywild from Toril. Assuming that the Sundering didn't extend to the Feywild, the Feywild's timeline would not have been affected. So, just picking a random date, say the LeShay settled the Feywild 80,000 or 100,000 years ago. In -17,000 DR, suddenly, when the LeShay go to visit Toril, it's a different world altogether. All their cousins are gone. Completely obliterated. The LeShay on the Feywild side remember everything. But the LeShay on the Toril side never even existed.
Any LeShay that currently live in Toril would probably have to have re-colonized Toril from the Feywild sometime after the Sundering circa -17,000 DR. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 11:02:17
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| You mean the shadevari, not the malaugrym. Yeah, I guess it's possible with magic, I just find it hard to believe, the Sundering spell would be even more ridiculously overpowered. I think it was subtle, like the butterfly effect, e.g. change a small magma flow in the past. I wonder for how long elves planned Evermeet to exist, will the plate tectonics slow down or stop (that would kill the magnetosphere). In some planar timelines I've seen, the le shay are older than the multiverse, I like your idea cause they don't appear alien enough to be that old, not like the sharns. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 13:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
(...)
We have lore to support that the LeShay's timeline was largely eradicated by the Sundering, which radiated backwards through time. (Read their entry in the Epic Handbook, and see also Bryan's article in Dragon.)
(...)
In which Dragon's number, Gray? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2013 : 14:13:45
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Sorry, yes, I meant the Shadevari, not the Malaugryms. Although, they could be fun too.
Brian James's most excellent article on Sarifal is in Dragon #376. There's some beautiful artwork to accompany it, including a fantastic map of a portion of the Moonshaes.
There's also some good lore in there on primal spirits and archfey. |
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Before the Days of Thunder—the Prehistory of Toril
