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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
 Posted - 09 May 2013 : 15:54:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Back on the topic of Toril's pre-history, I've been pondering about the Salamander wars between the aquatic creator race and the genies of the elemental planes. I need to read up some on the lore of Zakhara, but I was thinking there might be a connection.
I was considering that after the octopoids had contact and went to war with the salamanders on the Elemental Plane of Fire, it escalated when the ifrits became involved, then other genie races, and soon the Marids were colonizing huge swaths of the oceans setting up what I'm referring to as the Marid Estates. Many octopoid tribes or nations were enslaved by their elemental masters, until they learned magics to bind, compel and entrap the genies in rings and gems and such.
I wonder if the Land of Fate, back when it was submerged in the Blue Age, was perhaps a hotbed, a ground zero even for some of the major events in the Salamander Wars and the rebellion against the Marids.
It would be a natural reason for there to be many gates and rifts to the elemental planes found in that location, as well as artifacts containing imprisoned genies. There might even be some lore we could surmise about the geography of the place, and how it might have been affected.
Perhaps genies raised some of the land above the waves, literally "terraforming" the face of Toril to make for more suitable environments for efreets, dao and djinn to occupy. Plus, it makes for more defensible strongholds. The octopoids could not go up on land at that point. (Unless the doppelgangers were bred around that time as shocktroops for harrowing the genies on their own turf.) Under the ocean, the genie palaces were vulnerable to attack from all sides, including from above. On land, the octopoids were limited to attacking from the surface, and that was only if they could find a way (suits, spells, or vehicles?) to emerge onto land in the first place. It would make great sense for genies to raise up some islands or expand them into greater land areas for the purpose of both their comfort and defense.
Can we call it something besides the salamander wars, since that was a recent name of a war in Thay?
I really like the idea that a lot of the "land" that came about was simply the bodies left behind by earth elementals and possibly lava elementals that were at war with the water elementals. In fact, perhaps the land of fate's intrinsic ties to the elemental planes draws upon the fact that its made up of dead elementals. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 16:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I really like the idea that a lot of the "land" that came about was simply the bodies left behind by earth elementals and possibly lava elementals that were at war with the water elementals.
Does the Land of Fate have an Underdark?
Forgive my simplistic view, but I was thinking that all those elementals battling in and on land might have caused caverns, tunnels, etc. to form (i.e. a water elemental gets swarmed by several fire elementals, blows up and leaves a gaping hole). |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 03:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvasCan we call it something besides the salamander wars, since that was a recent name of a war in Thay?
Oh sure, we could call them the efreet wars, or the Genie wars. I didn't remember there was another war of that same name. Probably even seeped into my subconscious somehow. I was just calling them the Salamander wars as a placeholder which seemed to stick.
Initially it started with octopoids discovering the elemental plane of fire, first through naturally occurring portals in volcanic vents, then through the development of magic. They learned to bind and compel fire elementals to help them make glass, their primary substance from which they made weapons, tools and building materials.
The aquatic creator race eventually crossed the paths of salamanders, who were not so easily mastered, and things escalated from there. Genies and primordials were drawn into the conflict at some point after. So Efreet wars, Genie wars, even Fire wars would all work.
These were Toril's first flame wars. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 06:01:28
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In my own prehisotry, I have it where the elemental Lords were each responsible for one of the Creator Races (some say they created them, others that they were merely their caretakers).
Sarrukh = Fire
Batrachi = Water
Aearee - Air
Fey - Earth
Mankind - Alloy (All 4 elements/ "the 5th Element"/Life) sometimes called wood or metal.
Man may have evolved on his own, or may have been created (or some combination of both) by THE Creator. This is why they are sometimes referred to as 'the race of destiny'.
I recently added certain... Lovecraftian... elements into my broader origin theories (they were always there, I am just now able to nail them down better). The base elements are part of the Prime Material - part of that which was created after 'the big bang'. The Elder Gods (both good and evil - those being above and beyond even the primordials) existed before the creation of the Universe, and are not part of it. This goes for all those 'Cthonic' powers of pure evil that work toward the destruction of the universe (in order to revert it back to its original, chaotic state). The 'good' Elder gods knew that only something born of the new universe would eventually be able to stop its destruction, and so the mortals races were created. Of the five primal races - each based on a different prime element - only one would emerge as the race of destiny. And in so doing, they would take the place of the 'old gods'.
The reason why so many evil powers try to destroy, subvert, or enslave humanity is because they fear it - it will someday supplant them. In the end, this may well cause the very doom they fear (ask the illithids... about the Githyanki). 
Five elements, five Creator Races, five points to a Pentagram - the Elder Sign against Chaos. The Great Wheel was the ultimate representation of an orderly universe; the Maelstrom, its opposite. Four elements and the Prime make up the Material Plane, and only with 'material' can we fight the immaterial. Without the elements, reality falls apart like a rope of sand. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 May 2013 06:02:37 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 19:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In my own prehisotry, I have it where the elemental Lords were each responsible for one of the Creator Races (some say they created them, others that they were merely their caretakers).
Sarrukh = Fire
Batrachi = Water
Aearee - Air
Fey - Earth
Mankind - Alloy (All 4 elements/ "the 5th Element"/Life) sometimes called wood or metal.
Man may have evolved on his own, or may have been created (or some combination of both) by THE Creator. This is why they are sometimes referred to as 'the race of destiny'.
I recently added certain... Lovecraftian... elements into my broader origin theories (they were always there, I am just now able to nail them down better). The base elements are part of the Prime Material - part of that which was created after 'the big bang'. The Elder Gods (both good and evil - those being above and beyond even the primordials) existed before the creation of the Universe, and are not part of it. This goes for all those 'Cthonic' powers of pure evil that work toward the destruction of the universe (in order to revert it back to its original, chaotic state). The 'good' Elder gods knew that only something born of the new universe would eventually be able to stop its destruction, and so the mortals races were created. Of the five primal races - each based on a different prime element - only one would emerge as the race of destiny. And in so doing, they would take the place of the 'old gods'.
The reason why so many evil powers try to destroy, subvert, or enslave humanity is because they fear it - it will someday supplant them. In the end, this may well cause the very doom they fear (ask the illithids... about the Githyanki).
Five elements, five Creator Races, five points to a Pentagram - the Elder Sign against Chaos. The Great Wheel was the ultimate representation of an orderly universe; the Maelstrom, its opposite. Four elements and the Prime make up the Material Plane, and only with 'material' can we fight the immaterial. Without the elements, reality falls apart like a rope of sand.
As much as I like the idea of the elements each making their own creator race, it feels shoehorned. The Sarrukh don't scream fire to me. The fey don't portray earth to me. In fact, if anything, the fey would be the combination because many fey are water oriented, many are earth oriented, and many are air oriented (only a few are fire oriented).
That being said, if some of the creator races are elementally born, it could make sense. Others may be "god-born". Others may be planar transplants. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 01:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Al-Qadim lore tells very little of Zahkara's ancient past. It only briefly mentiones of a great war that raged in the Land of Fate's ancient past, waged between gods of the southern isles in the Crowded Sea and genies of the Northern desert mainlands over a (supposedly human?) girl. The humans supposedly lived in two ancient kingdoms, Nog and Kadar, the first civilisations of Zakhara. This girl was eventualy visited by an elemental overdeity-like entitie with a supreme understanding of Fate, and the girl became the Loregiver by writing down Fates laws of honorable conduct in scrolls and ending the conflict.
One can assume Nog and Kadar were lands originally under custody by genies but taken over by gods (or vice versa, the lore is scant on this). If a higher sealevel is our starting initial situation, it's possible that the human civilisations of Zakhara, Nog And Kadar, are contenders for being among first human colonies/settlements on the gen-fortified continent of Merrouroboros. They are situated on the southeastern shores of the mainland of Zakharan, so I think the gods and their followers sailed in through the Foreigners' Sea from a land far to the east.
The southern genie-godswar could be a metaphore for the divinely driven changing of the lands; from an elementally reinforced supercontinent into each of the travelling gods indiviual paradises. Somehow the northerns deserts and scattered southern isles that the Lands of Fate are now are the result of the struggle of the gods (who I think could be the same allied group of gods named the Nine Travellers in Karatur) to get a footing into genie controlled lands. It makes sense that, as the deities gained more footing on the lands, the raw elements of the lands became more bearable for occupation by mortal races. The gods paradises were at one point shattered into the Crowded Seas isles as they are now, and for some reason the deities permanently left, with only ruins of their works remaining.
The few that are still remembered (and their most likely Faerunian and Karaturan alias) are Old Kor (Tyr/Fa Kuan), Learned Zhan (Oghma/Ch'en Hisiang or Chih Shih), Brave Hajama (Tempus/Chan Cheng), Najim the Adventurous (Tymora/Hsing Yong), Selan the Beautiful Moon (Selune/Ai Ch'hing), Jisan of the Floods (Waukeen/Shi Chia), Haku of the Desert Winds (Shaundakul/Ch'en Hisiang or Chih Shih) and Hakiyah of the Sea Breezes (Lathander/Kwan Ying). Somehow Fate managed sever to both the gens and deities prominent links to the Land of Fate.
It could also be that the Nine travellers originated from Nog and Kadar and settled Kara-Tur, though. This means they most have fled the Lands of Fate after Fate ordained their meddling not honorable, and they gained a secure haven by establishing the Celestial Beaurocracy in the Far East.
By the way, Bladewind, this is some really good info. Now you've got me thinking about all sorts of things. I really, really need to study up on my Zakhara lore. And it hadn't occurred to me, but it makes perfect sense, that there might have been some interplay with Kara-Tur as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 03:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As much as I like the idea of the elements each making their own creator race, it feels shoehorned. The Sarrukh don't scream fire to me. The fey don't portray earth to me. In fact, if anything, the fey would be the combination because many fey are water oriented, many are earth oriented, and many are air oriented (only a few are fire oriented).
That being said, if some of the creator races are elementally born, it could make sense. Others may be "god-born". Others may be planar transplants.
That was the only one that was a bit off, but then I thought, you know... dinosaurs... volcanoes... it kinda fits (they came from that highly geologically unstable period).
In fact, Salamanders may be one of their 'created' races.
I also have it where the Sarrukh are merely one 'branch' (sub-race) of a Saurian race - others would include the Saurials (their are Toril-native Saurials in Malatra/Southern K-T). Most of the Saurials were whisked off to Abeir (what... you didn't know that was the mysterious Saurial homeworld? ), but at last one (mixed) group managed to stay hidden on the 'lost plateau' (Living Jungle setting) in Malatra.
The Fey are definitely 'Earth' spirits, as in 'nature'. They are tied to the soil (they are the guardians of trees, meadows, etc). I assume at one time they had a close bond to Toril's earth, but that was severed when they fled during the age of darkness. They severed their link to the prime and became more 'spirit' then material. This does not mean that every single member of each of these creator races had to adhere to their specific element - its just the general, racial attachment. I am sure their were off-shoots of all five that dabbled in all the other elements (amongst other things). Hence. The term 'Creator' race - they were the progenitors of hundreds - if not thousands - of other species. If we can have 'fallen' angels (devils), then we can certainly have desert-adapted Batrachi descendents (I always thought the Asabi/Laerti{sp?} fit better with the Batrachi then the Sarrukh). We know the Araree have subterranean descendents, so why not? 35k+ years gives room for lots of diversification from the original model.
Zakharan history does shoe-horn nicely with both K-T and FR history, but you have to stretch the timeline just a bit (the current civilization in Zakhara is only aware of the past thousand years of history - the rest is just 'legends', and thats where the timeline gets blurry). The 'Scattering of Fate' plays nicely against the fact we have a wide-spread clustering of psuedo-Middle Eastern cultures everywhere.
Also, Nog and Kador fit with some of Tempat Larang's history (Ronin Challenge), the Utter East's history, and some of the stuff revolving around Tan Chin and ancient (Anok)Imaskar.
As for the Nine Immortals - there was only one that is common to both the Chinese pantheon and the Kara-Turran one, and we had come up with the idea that He was the first of the 'new' Immortals (because most of the Chinese pantheon did not interlope - those positions were filled by already existing Torillian powers who assumed the oriental aliases). I forget his name - i think thats the guy with the Acorn (who story ties into the Copper Demon, who's own story shoe-horns nicely with Taan/Raumathar history).
Personally, I pegged the Copper Demon as a Torillian aspect of Ma Yuan - the assassin of the gods. He got trapped in Raumathari Soul cage (a cross between a RW medieval 'Iron Maiden', and a Helmed Horror), which just so happens to be made from copper (its a great conductor - iron has too many dispersing properties when it comes to magic). He managed to escape the enslaving properties of the 'suit' when the Netherese fried the Weave (and then 'laid low' for about 75 years).
Too bad I lost that timeline I had worked on, marrying all the FR settings together. Some things were a royal pain, but most of it knit together nicely. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 May 2013 03:24:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 11:44:32
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It would make more sense to me if you wanted to continue the "elements creating the creator races" idea that the Sarrukh be earth, the elves be the "mixed" or "wood", humans being made by the gods or being transplants, and that fire simply didn't create a creator race... its races already existed and they existed to destroy NOT create.
Sarrukh = Earth
Batrachi = Water
Aearee - Air
Fey - Alloy (All 4 elements/ "the 5th Element"/Life) sometimes called wood or metal. Maybe this was a faction of the elements who wanted to work together rather than war. They then retreated into the feywild.
Mankind (or something similar to humanity) - interlopers from another plane or creations of the gods.
I do like the idea of Jotunheim being in the Feywild and thus the giants also being interlopers. Maybe they were drawn to Faerun by the Fey leaving it.
Perhaps the original dragons were the creations of the elements of Fire (maybe Fire Primordials), but they were created as soldiers not creators.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 12:29:34
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The more I think on it, perhaps the dragons were created as soldiers not creators by fire.... but maybe fire didn't want to create new races so much as subvert the races created by the other elements. Thus the reason why dragons can mate with almost anything. It could also explain similar things with fey being able to mate across racial lines if they were intended as both a creator and subverter.
Following this idea, perhaps the primordials of Fire showed what a powerful creation they had made in their brass, gold and red dragons (and possibly land-based linnorms as well), and the other Primordials simply copied the general idea but couldn't create as "perfect" of a copy and thus why gold and red dragons are at the top of the heap. Thus, silver and white dragons may have been from the Primordial powers of cold (which could have included powers of either water or air). Copper, black, Green, amethyst, and sapphire Dragons may have been made by primordials of earth. Bronze and blue dragons may have been made by primordials of storms and tempests (which could have included powers of either water or air). Crystal Dragons may have been made by primordials of "light" or air. Emerald dragons may have been made by primordials of air. Topaz dragons may have been made by primordials of water.
The dragons who can take on a human form may have been created literally to aid in their subversion of other races. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 12:47:03
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| In drawing out the dragon creations, another idea came to mind. In this early era of chaos and elementalism, the traditional lines of the elements that we recognize today probably did not exist in the slightest. So, the idea of earth opposing air, water opposing fire... while they may have had tendencies, they weren't absolutes. Also, and perhaps more importantly, many primordials may have drawn on powers that would call from multiples of these elements. Thus, powers of cold may have drawn on both air and water (and somewhat akin to the paraelemental planes we used to have). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 17:49:57
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But mankind is "the race of destiny' (thats core-canon). The reasoning for this is that they are extemely adaptable to any circumstance (3e's rules concerning humans). This is because they are made up of equal parts of the other four elements (a medieval alchemy concept that life is derived from equal parts of the prime elements). Humanity IS 'the 5th element'. Its how I make everything work.
The elves being all four may make sense (though no less so then them being earth spirits... which is precisely how they started out), but only when you think of elves as the 'premier race', which they are not - humanity is the one with the destiny. The elves (and their creators the fey) have already taken a backseat to human dominance (as all the other races have, whether they realize it or not).
We bandied this back-and-forth in the now legendary (IMO) Utter East Thread, and we (I believe it was one of the other contributors - perhaps BadCatMan or Dark Wizard) that the Elves/Fey had made an attempt at becoming the 'race of destiny', and almost made it - they came far closer then the other three. But in the end, humanity won... but by a small margin. Why this is may not have even happened yet - the conclusion of that storyline takes place at the 'end of time', so me may never know the details (and probably shouldn't - its better for an RPG to just leave that open).
So the point is that it is a combination - a perfect combination - of the four elements that leads to this 'great destiny', and the fey came damn close... in fact, ALL the creator races tried to blend-in the others, but Mankind had an edge right from the start. They may not have started out as Alloy - they may have been 'spirit' (although THAT can really be argued as belonging to Fey), and with their extreme adaptability (something shared with all those 'first races') they manage the perfect blend.
This all goes back to the very concept of 'Creator' in Creator Races. They strove to get it right - perfecting themselves by creating hundreds of side-strains of their races. However, each specific strain was missing some crucial element (quite literally). Only mankind got it right (and I differentiate between Mankind - that very first creator race - and Humanity, which they branched off of; we have 'dead ends' as well). Just as Elves are NOT Fey, so too are the current crop of humans NOT the same as the original group (who were more like PF's Azlanti, and mine were the people of Blackmoor).
I don't like using 'spirit' for the term for the 'fifth element' simply because of other cosmological lore I have going on. I go all the way back to D&D's beginning with the idea that only humans have 'a soul', and THAT is the spirit referred to in the pentagram illustration. The other races only have a spirit, which is similar, but not quite the same (I consider a soul a spirit which has attained its own, separate 'sentience').
Its very involved, my planer lore and cosmology, but it all fits together and works for me. I tie-in the five energies, and also the concept of 'holy trinity' (Body, Mind, & Soul). I have a holistic approach to D&D religion. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 May 2013 18:00:08 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 20:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But mankind is "the race of destiny' (thats core-canon). The reasoning for this is that they are extemely adaptable to any circumstance (3e's rules concerning humans). This is because they are made up of equal parts of the other four elements (a medieval alchemy concept that life is derived from equal parts of the prime elements). Humanity IS 'the 5th element'. Its how I make everything work.
The elves being all four may make sense (though no less so then them being earth spirits... which is precisely how they started out), but only when you think of elves as the 'premier race', which they are not - humanity is the one with the destiny. The elves (and their creators the fey) have already taken a backseat to human dominance (as all the other races have, whether they realize it or not).
We bandied this back-and-forth in the now legendary (IMO) Utter East Thread, and we (I believe it was one of the other contributors - perhaps BadCatMan or Dark Wizard) that the Elves/Fey had made an attempt at becoming the 'race of destiny', and almost made it - they came far closer then the other three. But in the end, humanity won... but by a small margin. Why this is may not have even happened yet - the conclusion of that storyline takes place at the 'end of time', so me may never know the details (and probably shouldn't - its better for an RPG to just leave that open).
So the point is that it is a combination - a perfect combination - of the four elements that leads to this 'great destiny', and the fey came damn close... in fact, ALL the creator races tried to blend-in the others, but Mankind had an edge right from the start. They may not have started out as Alloy - they may have been 'spirit' (although THAT can really be argued as belonging to Fey), and with their extreme adaptability (something shared with all those 'first races') they manage the perfect blend.
This all goes back to the very concept of 'Creator' in Creator Races. They strove to get it right - perfecting themselves by creating hundreds of side-strains of their races. However, each specific strain was missing some crucial element (quite literally). Only mankind got it right (and I differentiate between Mankind - that very first creator race - and Humanity, which they branched off of; we have 'dead ends' as well). Just as Elves are NOT Fey, so too are the current crop of humans NOT the same as the original group (who were more like PF's Azlanti, and mine were the people of Blackmoor).
I don't like using 'spirit' for the term for the 'fifth element' simply because of other cosmological lore I have going on. I go all the way back to D&D's beginning with the idea that only humans have 'a soul', and THAT is the spirit referred to in the pentagram illustration. The other races only have a spirit, which is similar, but not quite the same (I consider a soul a spirit which has attained its own, separate 'sentience').
Its very involved, my planer lore and cosmology, but it all fits together and works for me. I tie-in the five energies, and also the concept of 'holy trinity' (Body, Mind, & Soul). I have a holistic approach to D&D religion.
I get your reasoning. It makes it feel no less shoehorned if you stick the sarrukh/lizardy people as fire instead of earth (earth makes sense for them). It also feels shoehorned if you make the fey who are more like nature personified as being only earth. The need to make this "layout of 5" for all the creator races feels very shoehorned. This race of destiny as you want to call it may not have even been born of the elemental soup that would become Toril. Perhaps they are the race of destiny because they are born of the gods and not the Primordial elemental beings (just like the jotunbrud giants may also be born of the gods, but they weren't destined to win out... same with orcs, goblinkind, etc...). Sometimes, you just have to accept that a concept sounds good until you realize you're divorcing it from the world and its history itself too much.
That all being said, I'm not totally sold on the fact that the "Primordials of Fire and Energy" made their only bid on race creation with the creation of the original dragons (which others copied). However, it kind of makes sense that perhaps salamanders and firenewts were created by Sarrukh using their study of fire. The fey may have created the Azer as servants after discovering dwarves in the feywild. The original efreeti may have come from perversions of devils once souls began to go to the nine hells (though this one feels a little shoehorned).... or there may have been some ties between the hells and fire, given that so much of it is on fire. There could be some very twisted story here that's yet to be revealed between hell and fire. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 23:17:40
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I don't really see the creator races as having any special connection to any particular elements. They all worshipped gods, which is a strong indicator that they had no special affiliation to the patrons of any elements, who are all primordials. (Although, to the extent that primordials are worshipped, I think it possible for them to acquire "numen," or divine power invested by belief, and as such they are really hybrid creatures, a base race of primordial with a divine template applied, with some level of actual divine rank.)
The term "creator races" is not really indicative of any special connection to Toril, either. It's just an arbitrary historical term, applied by elven scholars to 5 races who happened to achieve a prominent level of technological, magical, and geo-political development at various points in the known (and I stress "known") history of Faerūn.
It's a point of contention even among those sages because dragons have sometimes been included too. And I surmise that giants were also contenders in some lists.
Elves are, relatively speaking, late arrivals on Toril. They don't know everything about Toril's history. (Especially regarding other continents). There could have been great civilizations prior to the Days of Thunder that they are completely ignorant of, races that have been forgotten. Myself, I am fond of the theory that a race of yeti, forerunners of the Taer and Alaghi, might have had a great civilization during the Shadow Epoch, one that has since been vanished with the melting of the ice and the descent of the yeti into barbarism.
Or are the Taer the forerunners, and the yeti their debased descendants? You know that could be interesting too. I half-way wondered if humans are descended from yeti. But it seems less of a stretch for humans to descend from ancient taer, with the yeti being a isolated sister branch that adapted to be more bestial, surviving in the few places where the ice remained.
Plus there's that alternate timeline where the LeShay had a large civilization, until they were largely eradicated by the Sundering. Who knows what other civilizations may have been destroyed along with them. |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 11 May 2013 23:20:27 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 11:39:49
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that's a good point (that all the creator races worshipped gods). Of course, it may be that there was a schism. However, that all being said, I'm not especially fond of the elements being responsible for the creator races. However, I am fond of the primordials creating SOME races, and we know that the primordials used dragons as mounts. I think for this topic it would be a good discussion of what races we think the primordials may have been responsible for that may have been around during this era. How about as a start, I'll throw out ideas, and you guys tear them apart, enhance them, or tweak them to another end?
Primordials created:
elementals (the four standard, plus most of the unusual ones we've seen)
Salamanders
genie-kind (efreeti, marids, djinn, dao, janni)
dragons and linnorms
mephits (air, dust, earth, fire, ice, magma, ooze, salt, steam, water)
pyrohydra / cryohyrdra
invisible stalker
magmin
crysmal
belker
xorn
this one may be the most disputed, but the Azer as well
oozes (gelatinous cube, black pudding, gray ooze, ochre jelly)
On the topic of the taer and alaghi, I too like this idea that there may have been a very mammalian bestial society. Perhaps this race of yeti beings was created by Chauntea. Without the sun, they would have nearly died to extinction, and perhaps what we see today is what remains of them. Grimlocks may have also descended from this race.
On the topic of survivors of the Shadow Epoch, the shape-changing slyth (see underdark) may have also been a god-created race that survived the shadow epoch but never recovered. Their extreme neutrality may be as a result of the years of war that their people went through. Another option is of course that these beings are a created race, created by the Batrachi or by humanity. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 14:17:22
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Well, my (HB) cosmology is very different in that I come from Planescape type of design approach, rather then a world (Toril) specific approach.
Toril is important in 'the great scheme of things', which is why it is such a Sphere of contention. However, I think that each of us should have our own ideas about why that is - it works better for an RPG setting. Maybe its a Lovecraftian type of deal, where some of the 'elder evils' (Primordials) were imprisoned on Toril, which makes it so important (as Earth is to the Cthulhu mythos).
Anyhow, the only proper way (IMO) to design a history/cosmology that goes back to the 'god wars' would be to design it from the Planer side of things outward, otherwise you are constantly back-filling in planer lore that sometimes doesn't work with specific (D&D) worlds.
Also, I am not saying that Torils 'Creator Races' are the true Creator Races. As I mentioned in my last post, I think the Sarrukh themselves are every specific branch of greater 'sauroid' race (which would include the Saurials). Thats where this confusion comes in about my 'shoe-horning'. From my point of view, we have no idea what those races were really like - we only have some inkling based on evidence left by their descendents. Every (D&D) world is left with 'bits & pieces' of the originals, but as far as we know, we have no clue what they were like, or who created them (if anyone - they may have evolved naturally and then been 'nurtured' by certain gods).
Looking at just Toril's history and deciding how the universe was formed reminds me of the story of the blind men and the elephant - our information is extremely limited, and filtered through the setting itself. Thats why each setting has its own cosmology, and creation myths. Thus, when I say 'Creator Races', i am thinking about the original, pre-godwar versions, not those creatures we are vaguely aware of in FR.
As for the Fey/Earth things, I have it that way because I think the original Fey were actually a plant species... who happen to need (to be rooted to) the earth to survive. The fey we are familiar with are just projections - like avatars - of tree & plant spirits. Thats my own take - YMMV.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 14:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Elves are, relatively speaking, late arrivals on Toril. They don't know everything about Toril's history. (Especially regarding other continents). There could have been great civilizations prior to the Days of Thunder that they are completely ignorant of, races that have been forgotten. Myself, I am fond of the theory that a race of yeti, forerunners of the Taer and Alaghi, might have had a great civilization during the Shadow Epoch, one that has since been vanished with the melting of the ice and the descent of the yeti into barbarism. <snip>
Precisely my reasoning.
Elves are NOT Fey - they are just one product of the Fey. Just as modern humans are an offshoot of some 'Mankind Progenitor'. In fact, I have been toying with the idea that the giants are actually the Human Creator Race! I also think most of the modern races are mixtures of those ancient, antideluvian races. I think only the dwarves - of the major races - has a very specific and unique heritage.
Hmmmmm... what if Dwarves are the 'Earth race'? There are possibilities there. Maybe modern humans are a branch off the fey themselves (off of elves, etc). So modern humans have bloodlines leading back to ALL the creators, which is what makes them special. I have to think on this more.
We'd have -
Air - Aearee (probably some form of strange cloud-like beings)
Fire - Sarrukh (Probably related to dragons)
Water - Batrachi (some form of Ichthyoid race, and closer to jellyfish originally).
Earth - Jötunbrood (which would include Giants & Dwarves as descendents)
Spirit (Nature) - The Fey: beings of pure energy (projections of fauna)
First I list the element, then how we know them in FR, and lastly how I picture them originally, in the pre-sundered Omniverse.
Thus, no modern race can claim 100% kinship to the originals. Each is a mix of the elements; some 'grand experiment' by The Ancients.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 May 2013 14:31:55 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 20:13:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm not especially fond of the elements being responsible for the creator races. However, I am fond of the primordials creating SOME races, and we know that the primordials used dragons as mounts. I think for this topic it would be a good discussion of what races we think the primordials may have been responsible for that may have been around during this era.
We know that dragons (proper) appeared on Toril after the Tearfall event in -31,000 DR that (largely) wiped out the Batrachi and created the Sea of Fallen Stars. This was caused when Toril's 2nd moon, Zotha, was shattered and the primordial Asgorath, mother of dragons, hurled the greater part of it down on Faerūn. It is said that dragon eggs rained down from the sky at the time, among the falling bits of moon. I assume Asgorath spawned them in a simultaneous act of destruction and creation.
Another theory holds that Toril had some small, native drakes and "proto-dragon" lizards whose eggs were transformed by epic magic, changing them in their shells to hatch as true dragons shortly after Tearfall. And it's possible that both theories are true.
However, I think it's easy to get caught up on assigning each race to a creator. I don't think each race necessarily has to have been "created." I don't know how evolution works in Realmspace or among the elemental planes, but both being magic heavy regions, we could assume the laws of evolution work differently.
Certainly there's evidence on Toril of much more rapid "punctuated equilibrium," where species may stay the same for long periods but then evolve swiftly or branch off into different forms over a very short period of time. We see this happening after the Shadow Epoch ended and life flourished everywhere in a very short period of time.
Perhaps some kind of Lamarckian evolution can operate under certain conditions. Or spontaneous emergence of life. With a little creativity one could imagine many other mechanisms or processes in a magical universe for life to spontaneously appear and change form.
Gods are said to have created many races, but in order for gods to exist, sapient beings must believe in them first, so who created who actually? Did gods create the intelligent races or did the races create the gods?
As for primordials, they are not known for being particularly creative. Some were, maybe. But most were just elemental forces of destruction. And few had any interest in creation. Procreation perhaps. But I'm uncomfortable assigning acts of creation to the Primordials, at least as far as creating any particular species is concerned, unless we find some good evidence for each case in lore. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 20:17:27
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By the way, there's another interesting theory there as to what happened to Toril's missing water. Perhaps some of it was siphoned (or blasted) off the face of Toril to form the ice-moon Zotha.
It also makes me wonder if Toril ever had any other moons. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 10:18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I don't really see the creator races as having any special connection to any particular elements. They all worshipped gods, which is a strong indicator that they had no special affiliation to the patrons of any elements, who are all primordials.
Didn't it turn out that non-human creator races actually worshipped primal spririts, like the World Serpent or Remnis? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 13:48:03
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If the primordials or elements did create any races, I'd definitely have it that they were soulless, since the outer planes are the planes of "souls" and the inner planes aren't involving souls. Thus, I might remove some of the creatures I listed above (oozes and hydras come more to mind... oozes more because there they would seem more a far realms creation, maybe). Genie-kind also becomes questionable. The reason why I think that we should give a thought to this is part of what happened during this pre-history is "what was here?". I mean, we're stating that the octopoids were here, but were there elemental beings here as well? If so, in what form? I feel like we can without a doubt state that "elementals" as we know them, as well as mephits, then maybe crysmals, invisible stalkers, and magmin if a little more variety is wanted.
All this being said.... what about the things that these octopoids may have eaten... by this I mean animals. Were fish around? What about sharks (granted less evolved versions)? If these animals were around, does this imply that the beastlands were possibly around? If the beastlands were around and the norse deities are in the beastlands, might this explain their possible early involvement (and later death)? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 14:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Didn't it turn out that non-human creator races actually worshipped primal spirits, like the World Serpent or Remnis?
You are correct, we have learned that the World Serpent is actually a primal spirit. He was probably also a god, in that he acquired "numen" or divine power invested by belief. Several of his fragments are considered gods, anyway. As such he was probably one of those hybrid entities, a primal spirit with a god template and divine rank. He was a bigtime player back in the day, and as the Sarrukh were monotheists, the World Serpent probably had a greater god template and a divine rank of 20.
And he appears to have had some kind of afterlife for his worshippers, although it's name and particulars have not been revealed yet. But it is suspected that the World Serpent Inn is (at least part of) what's left of his former divine realm.
As for Remnis, I believe he was the "steed" or ally of Krocaa, so definitely a part their pantheon, but not one of the main gods of the Aearee. Remnis probably had some little followings around the Realms. The Aearee were a diverse and widespread race. But as the "beast lord" of eagles, and a primal spirit, I am not sure how much "numen" he acquired, or if he had any Aearee clerics.
I'm not sure what the Aearee thought of eagles, really. I'm not sure if they felt any kinship for them at all. They may even have felt some disdain, considering them as pets or wild animals. Probably thought of them about the same as what humans think of their own closest relatives, the apes.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 15:00:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
All this being said.... what about the things that these octopoids may have eaten... by this I mean animals. Were fish around? What about sharks (granted less evolved versions)? If these animals were around, does this imply that the beastlands were possibly around? If the beastlands were around and the norse deities are in the beastlands, might this explain their possible early involvement (and later death)?
Oh sure, I imagine the Seas of Toril were teaming with life, probably equivalent to the Silurian or Devonian period of Earth's history. Lots of sea creatures of every kind. Including krakens and sharks. So Sekolah was probably around back in the day.
As for the planes, well, we know Selūne was around, Mystryl, Chauntea, Tempus, Talos, Talona, and the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race. I think we can safely say that the Gates of the Moon was around, Mystryl's plane, Chauntea's House of Nature (basically similar to an aquatic Beast Lands), the Fugue, the Fated Depths, Warrior's Rest (sort of an Aquatic Valhalla), Fury's Heart (a great Maelstrom) and the Barrens of Doom & Despair, which is their equivalent of Tarterus, a prison plane for Primordials and Talona, and other fell entities.
You know, the Astral Plane would have just been a great big ocean back then. Probably with little definition between borders, everyone's divine realms and domains all just butted up one against another, all existing in the same, vast Astral ocean.
All except the Barren's of Doom & Despair... which probably WAS a continent-sized, or world-sized area of barren, scorching-hot, dry land thrust up out of the ocean or set apart in it's own plane or layer, or what have you. Which, if you think on it, was probably an even more horrible conception to aquatic creatures as a place of imprisonment, punishment and torture. What would make for a more horrible hell to a fish than the idea of spending eternity baking on a hot rock on land with no water in sight? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 15:25:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
It also makes me wonder if Toril ever had any other moons.
Of course Toril had another moon - the evidence is spread all over the place.
There was at least one 'heavenly body' that was destroyed during the godwar, and most likely TWO.
Note the shear number of things in FR with 'Moon' and 'Star' in the name. Also, when you study the maps (and the description of certain regions in early sources, like the Star Mounts), its pretty clear there are several extremely large , ancient craters in Faerūn (the Tunlands are another excellent example).
Something was destroyed, and lots of it 'fell to earth'. Some of it is still up there... we call it "the Tears of Selune". Its allegorical - she 'cried' over something.... a great loss. Some of it still falls to earth from time to time (and in all those regions, 'star metal' has been mined). The whole continent is like a great, cosmic dumping ground.
Sometimes studying the geography is more important then the lore itself. And I haven't even touched upon the shape of the Inner Sea.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 May 2013 15:29:03 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 16:09:49
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| Only a brief comment about dragons... I've always seen them as strongly linked to elemental forces - not restricted to fire, but to all forms of elemental energy. The 2e Draconomicon brings about a connection beween dragons and the land they live in, especially in the Prime Material, and I see them elememntally linked to the physical world (as it is reflected by their breath and immunities), as I see elves having a strong connection with the natural cycles. This explanation was also a reason why there weren't, back then, many stories about planar dragons. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2013 : 20:52:53
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The giants have something similar going on, and when you also take into account their shared history, there is a great story yet to be told there. The dwarves should be in there somewhere - even though they are much more element-specific (although we do have examples of subtypes that prefer other elements, like the Azer). They share a common heritage with giants, and a mutual hatred of dragonkind.
If the Jötunbrood are truly the 'Human Creator Race', then the Dwarves may yet be another evolutionary dead-end (or are the giants a dead-end of the dwarves? Its all a matter of perspective).
Another theory - Elves are as close as the Fey got to a 'race of destiny', and perhaps the Dwarves as close as the giants got. There was a race in Darksun (the Pyreen, along with similar races in SJ and PS) that were actually a blend of the main demi-human races. Perhaps normal humans are NOT 'the race of destiny', but rather an essential ingredient. So the Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc (the main D&D races) are all far-along experiments of the Creators, but still not the ultimate culmination of such a project. Its these human-like 'apexes' that are the final step before the real goal is reached - the blending of all five elements into the true RoD.
And now I am reminded of the breeding-programs of the Bene Gesserit (Dune) that eventually created Paul Atreides - the 'god Emperor' of Dune. Thus, evolution and diversification serves the purpose of expanding the abilities available to mortals, and by cross-breeding the multitudinous sub-strains created you wind-up with the ultimate hybrid.
A God. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 May 2013 20:53:24 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 21:08:21
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| I always saw Humans as Ao's race, the one race that serves more than any other to balance the sysem, but also has the greatest power to destroy the system. I see them as the one thing that the creator races couldn't directly quontify, because of their greater heterogenaity, only the dragons come close in deversification, but they are heavily tied to magic. Humans are no where near as so entangled. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 02:04:52
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By the way, I just stumbled across this cool photo of a giant ammonite shell (fossil)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ironammonite/104392973/
The ammonite is an extinct mollusk, something like a giant squid or cuttlefish with a spiral shell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonoidea
The golden ammonite has an entry in the Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix #2, (MC11), so he's a bona fide Realms critter. It's a pretty big one too, listed as "Large" with a 6' diameter shell and 8 tentacles extending 8'-12'.
I am in love with the idea that in the Great School Pantheon of the aquatic creator race, the sun god (Amaunator? or some other incarnation?) was perceived by them as a golden ammonite, whose golden, spiral shell recalled the radiant disc of the sun. Perhaps their version of Selūne looked like a silver or pearl reflection of his ammonite form.
Anyway I thought the above picture was cool because it shows how massive they were in real life. And, they happened to be super-abundant back in Earth's Devonian period, which I imagine Toril's Blue Age to be somewhat similar too as far as the types and distributions of species around. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 03:54:51
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| That's probably why they were the first Incarnates. People that could utilize soul/ direct weave energy. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 04:10:46
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| Of course the only problem I have with mankind, pre-humanity, being the race of destiny, is that it's a bit too tolkienisc. That's why I've preposed that the "race of destiny" hasn't happened yet, at least to my gaming group. Man kind, humans and the father's of humans, are an importent stage on that journey, but they are far from the end. I also believe that the planet is far older than the elves know, largely, as the Fey would be rather ify in what they wanted their children to know. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 15:24:53
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Great picture, Gray.
It also is reminiscent of the Great Wheel - if we think of the Wheel itself as a vast machine (of sorts) that slowly turns and churns-out 'soul stuff' (or whatever is the 'primal energy' , like Mana, or Incarnum). Picture the Wheel itself revolving, with waves of energy spiraling outward (in some mythos the universe is referred to as a 'spiral').
Hey... may be the LoP is a mollusk!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 May 2013 15:25:42 |
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Before the Days of Thunderthe Prehistory of Toril
