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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 15:15:06
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I think that is closer to the truth; the Dawn Cataclysm did extend from about the Fall of Netheril to the Fall of Myth Drannor. It probably did have flare-ups and peter out for bits in between. The myths seem to compress the story of the godly events down to a shorter time period.
I guess I don't have such a problem with requiring a specific date because I'm comfortable with Einstein's theories of Relativity and how the notion of simultaneity just goes out the window in our own real world when you approach relativistic speeds. Not only do you get weird things happening like time dilation, but things shrink along the access of their forward direction. But when two travelers are approaching relativistic speeds with respect to the one another, each perceives the other one to be shrinking, and the other one to be time-dilated.
One of the more counter-intuitive implications is that it becomes difficult to sync up events chronologically when they happen in different reference frames, and that events which happen at the same time from some vantages are not simultaneous with respect to others.
I don't think mythic time works exactly like that, but if you are comfortable with Relativity and Minkowski diagrams, in which the notion of simultaneity gets chucked out out the window, then mythic time is just not that big a leap. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 18:43:17
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The Dawn Cataclysm should have a date, period. Saying that the event takes place "out of time" is just lazy or uninspired design. I hold the same dim opinion of The Sundering and its "effects radiant back and forth through time" hand waving.
The sweeping and voluminous history of the Forgotten Realms is verbose enough without introducing the concept of "mythic time". I applaud Gray's efforts to provide a justification for its existence, but in my opinion it's simply not necessary. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 18:44:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And yet, with all of that, and despite having dates that can be tied down, we are told that in all of Realmslore, there is one and only one event that somehow happened without time passing.
We're told there's only one?
How do we know there aren't more? Or that events (those of a divine or semi-divine nature) we think have set dates aren't just best guesses?
The Grand History is thorough, but if we're thinking in terms of a complete and accurate history of the Realms, it hardly scratches the surface.
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The Dawn Cataclysm should have a date, period. Saying that the event takes place "out of time" is just lazy or uninspired design.
Heh. Just saw this and I disagree. I don't think some events should have dates, nor do I think it's uninspired design.
On the contrary, I think bucking the trend of "all things must be set down and all things must be known" is good every now and then, inasmuch as the effects of magic and the interplay of the other planes and the divine beings that occupy them are concerned.
I think you can plot specific points along the timeline where this or that event relative to the Dawn Cataclysm occurred. But to say "on this date in the Realms, this event happened on an outer plane"...no, not always.
Or at least not with any degree of certainty.
And this is good because if gives people room to use their imaginations. It lets DMs have some wiggle room too.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 29 Apr 2013 18:50:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 19:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And yet, with all of that, and despite having dates that can be tied down, we are told that in all of Realmslore, there is one and only one event that somehow happened without time passing.
We're told there's only one?
How do we know there aren't more? Or that events (those of a divine or semi-divine nature) we think have set dates aren't just best guesses?
The Grand History is thorough, but if we're thinking in terms of a complete and accurate history of the Realms, it hardly scratches the surface.
No, and that's not what I said, either. I said I don't see how we have tens of thousands of listed events, and only one of them has this explanation.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The Dawn Cataclysm should have a date, period. Saying that the event takes place "out of time" is just lazy or uninspired design.
Heh. Just saw this and I disagree. I don't think some events should have dates, nor do I think it's uninspired design.
On the contrary, I think bucking the trend of "all things must be set down and all things must be known" is good every now and then, inasmuch as the effects of magic and the interplay of the other planes and the divine beings that occupy them are concerned.
I think you can plot specific points along the timeline where this or that event relative to the Dawn Cataclysm occurred. But to say "on this date in the Realms, this event happened on an outer plane"...no, not always.
Or at least not with any degree of certainty.
And this is good because if gives people room to use their imaginations. It lets DMs have some wiggle room too.
Putting a date on something does not remove DM wiggle room. If it did, then the entire Grand History would be a useless product and Brian wouldn't be getting money from WotC.
And not putting a date on something is not the same as saying "all things must be known". Putting a date on it would still not tell us everything that happened, who all was involved, how the schism in Tyche's church started, what the connection to Myth Drannor was, any other effects on the mortal world, etc.
And I'm quite content with that. My objection centers solely on the refusal to provide an official timeframe, even though we have enough info to infer one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 19:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The Dawn Cataclysm should have a date, period. Saying that the event takes place "out of time" is just lazy or uninspired design. I hold the same dim opinion of The Sundering and its "effects radiant back and forth through time" hand waving.
The sweeping and voluminous history of the Forgotten Realms is verbose enough without introducing the concept of "mythic time". I applaud Gray's efforts to provide a justification for its existence, but in my opinion it's simply not necessary.
I'm not keen on the Sundering's effects going backwards and forwards in time, but I don't find that concept implausible. I thought of something similar, for a world I've created but never really done much with. And since we do have a date for when the spell was cast, that also makes it more palatable for me.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 05:10:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The sweeping and voluminous history of the Forgotten Realms is verbose enough without introducing the concept of "mythic time". I applaud Gray's efforts to provide a justification for its existence, but in my opinion it's simply not necessary.
I'm fairly neutral on whether there should or should not be a date. If they ever assign one, I will revise my theories and move on.
For the most part, I try not to judge published lore. I figure it's a sandbox world, with a lot of people playing in the sandbox. Most of the lore is great, some of it's "meh," and occasionally something ill-considered makes it through the final edit. But that's the rules of the game, and I think the Realms is a far better place for having a lot of chefs in the kitchen.
So once someone writes it, and it's "official" — in print and published, then it's gospel as far as I'm concerned. Written on stone tablets. It's in all effects a law of the universe. You can't cherry pick the laws of the universe! They aren't optional. (Well, you can, and should, of course in your home game, but that's not the official Realms. Those are like parallel universes.)
So my approach is like that of a scientist, collecting data and trying to make sense of it. Hypothesizing, trying to come up with cohesive theories, running those ideas through "peer review" here at the keep, and seeing what sticks.
There are definitely some published facts that are puzzling, conflicting, paradoxical or inconvenient. Certainly there are choices that have been made that I might not have made the same way. But for the most part, I find it fun to try to explain those and reconcile them. In many ways it's the problematic lore that sometimes gives me the most joy. Sometimes seemingly simple little lore choices have interesting and far-reaching ramifications. And, with a little ingenuity, even the bad lore can turn into something wonderful when you discover a creative solution or explanation.
There are so many surprising and counter-intuitive facts about our own world that led to other amazing discoveries: Einstein's Relativity violated Newton's Laws, Quantum Physics uncovered all sorts of weirdness including particles traveling as waves and quantum entanglement ("spooky action at a distance.") But good scientists don't throw out data because the results are different from what they expected. You can't reject fundamental laws of the universe and insist they should, or must, be otherwise. Arguing that gravity is stupid will not lessen the impact of a fall. A good scientist accepts the results and moves on, revising his theories to account for the new data.
So too with the Realms, I think we just have to be good scientists (and good sports!) and accept the bad with the good. Thankfully, we are so fortunate that the good Realmslore far outweighs the bad! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 12:46:07
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Which is why I like to play in smaller sandboxes than *trumpets please* THE ENTIRE REALMS ... ahem.
The Dawn Cataclysm is a great example of an event that affects ... well, everything. Couple that with no one taking the lead and nailing down the specifics early, the influence of imprecise prose and some scattered throwaway terms like "presaged" and you have threads like this. No one will ever come up with a definitive dating for the DC simply because that ship has sailed and whatever date any designer/writer had the temerity to put would raise some fan hackles - even if it came straight from Ed. That's because the references that exist cannot be reconciled without that off-putting "handwaving".
The Sundering - even though it has a date attached to it - has hairs growing out of it. This shows that dealing with such events after a plethora of fingers have eagerly rooted into the pie is a Kobayashi Maru simulation for the Realms. A "no win" scenario if I ever saw one. Chat to you again next year re the DC when we go through all of this all over again.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 30 Apr 2013 12:46:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 15:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Which is why I like to play in smaller sandboxes than *trumpets please* THE ENTIRE REALMS ... ahem.
The Dawn Cataclysm is a great example of an event that affects ... well, everything. Couple that with no one taking the lead and nailing down the specifics early, the influence of imprecise prose and some scattered throwaway terms like "presaged" and you have threads like this. No one will ever come up with a definitive dating for the DC simply because that ship has sailed and whatever date any designer/writer had the temerity to put would raise some fan hackles - even if it came straight from Ed. That's because the references that exist cannot be reconciled without that off-putting "handwaving".
I think that giving a longer date range, with periods of intense activity and periods of minimal activity, as I suggested above, would neatly resolve the issue without any hand-waving at all. It would accommodate all the existing references, leave room for more information, not invalidate any other lore, and accomplish all of that with a logical explanation that doesn't require magic, weird temporal anomalies, or anything else out of the norm to make it work. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 17:28:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, and that's not what I said, either. I said I don't see how we have tens of thousands of listed events, and only one of them has this explanation.
Thanks for the clarification. And I do get what you're saying.
I think my point still stands: there probably are hundreds of thousands of events out there that don't have a date and we just don't (or won't ever) know about them or when they happened. Of those, there are some (extraplanar/divine/magical) that shouldn't be known.
This doesn't mean you're wrong or that our opinions are mutually exclusive. I just don't agree with the logic that because we have a handful (what you think of as "tens of thousands") of dates set down that it makes no sense that some events aren't given precise dates or any date.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Putting a date on something does not remove DM wiggle room.
For some Realms DMs, having dates put in place (after the fact) messes with their campaigns and puts them out of line with Canon.
For some DMs it's easier to fudge things when no dates are given.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If it did, then the entire Grand History would be a useless product and Brian wouldn't be getting money from WotC.
Not all DMs subscribe to a loose play style. Some like to be told, in detail, how things are and effectively what to think. For these DMs it's as much fun to devour details as it is to run a D&D campaign.
Grand History is great for that.
I happen to think good game design means you leave room for DMs to fill in the gaps and cause them to ask questions. Grand History is great for this too.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And not putting a date on something is not the same as saying "all things must be known".
It sounds like you're saying you just want some dates, but none of that other information you mentioned. Do I have that right?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I'm quite content with that. My objection centers solely on the refusal to provide an official timeframe, even though we have enough info to infer one.
Interesting choice of words.
Unless somebody petitioned WotC directly for a date to be placed on the DC, nobody is refusing to do anything. I do know that some people have chosen not to give the DC a date, because they thought it was good for the Realms.
I like the DC as an undated event (or rather, set of events) because it keeps people thinking and talking about the Realms. If you lay down a time frame, you might limit the scope of the conversation.
That said, people keep chipping away at the subject so someday it might just all get resolved by the fans. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 30 Apr 2013 17:33:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 19:15:39
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Not even going to try doing this as a big quote... 
I get that we don't know about a lot of other events, because they've never been mentioned. But this is one that has been mentioned, in numerous sources, for a long time. So it's a known event, but it's alone among the known events in that it does not have a date, and in fact we have been told it can't be dated.
I agree that good Realmslore leaves wiggle room for DMs to play in. I don't see that putting a date on something -- especially a past event -- limits that wiggle room.
And essentially, yes. I'm satisfied with not knowing a huge amount about the Dawn Cataclysm. It is an interesting topic to me, and I'll eagerly devour any new lore that comes out about it, but if I was asked to list all the things I wanted more lore about, I'm not sure that the Dawn Cataclysm would even make the top fifty. My issue is just with the refusal to date it.
And yes, I do think it is a refusal. People have been asking about it for years, and there have been numerous opportunities -- including the printed Grand History -- for them to provide a date. Instead, we keep getting the "outside of time" bit, or the question is otherwise dodged.
Not providing a date when they have specifically given themselves an opportunity, and ignoring the many requests for a date, very much comes across as a refusal. When someone is asked for a straight, definitive answer and they repeatedly go out of their way to not provide one, that's refusing to answer the question. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 18:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The Dawn Cataclysm should have a date, period. Saying that the event takes place "out of time" is just lazy or uninspired design. I hold the same dim opinion of The Sundering and its "effects radiant back and forth through time" hand waving.
The sweeping and voluminous history of the Forgotten Realms is verbose enough without introducing the concept of "mythic time". I applaud Gray's efforts to provide a justification for its existence, but in my opinion it's simply not necessary.
I like the cut of your jib yet again. :) |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 20:33:52
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One thing I'll put forth for the dawn cataclysm is that portions of it may have happened at different times.
in 161 DR
"Some claim it unfolded in the Year of the Hangman’s Noose, when the last Chosen of Tyche died nine times in a single year within the vinelike coils of Moander’s avatar."
in 760 DR
"Others believe that the recent schism in the Church of Tyche is a direct result of the former Lady Luck’s corruption during the Dawn Cataclysm."
So, we know Moander infects Tyche and she splits. We don't know how long it took for that seed to spread through her "divine body". Maybe it was a slow moving encroachment that took 600 years before two deities came out of it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 20:53:57
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This matches my own personal view about the event, and it's one that I think fets well with what we are told.
Of course, the fact that I don't like the logical errors inherent with the out of time claim, might be affecting my perspective, just a bit. I mean I can handle a certain level of logical fragementation, but I've got my limits. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 21:58:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing I'll put forth for the dawn cataclysm is that portions of it may have happened at different times.
in 161 DR
"Some claim it unfolded in the Year of the Hangman’s Noose, when the last Chosen of Tyche died nine times in a single year within the vinelike coils of Moander’s avatar."
in 760 DR
"Others believe that the recent schism in the Church of Tyche is a direct result of the former Lady Luck’s corruption during the Dawn Cataclysm."
So, we know Moander infects Tyche and she splits. We don't know how long it took for that seed to spread through her "divine body". Maybe it was a slow moving encroachment that took 600 years before two deities came out of it.
My explanation of a struggle that began before the fall of Jhaamdath and ended around the time of the fall of Myth Drannor would encompass those dates. 
The write-up of Tyche's split, in Faiths & Avatars, says she was corrupted while she was exploring the Realms. It doesn't give a duration, but I'd expect that it wouldn't take a greater deity more than a handful of years to wander to their heart's content -- particularly a deity known for being fickle. I'd think it was a matter of months, if not weeks.
Knowing how Moander's infection seems to work pretty quickly on mortals, I'd also expect it to not take overly long for a deity. Longer than for a mortal, certainly, but I'd similarly expect weeks or months, rather than years. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 07:43:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing I'll put forth for the dawn cataclysm is that portions of it may have happened at different times.
in 161 DR
"Some claim it unfolded in the Year of the Hangman’s Noose, when the last Chosen of Tyche died nine times in a single year within the vinelike coils of Moander’s avatar."
in 760 DR
"Others believe that the recent schism in the Church of Tyche is a direct result of the former Lady Luck’s corruption during the Dawn Cataclysm."
So, we know Moander infects Tyche and she splits. We don't know how long it took for that seed to spread through her "divine body". Maybe it was a slow moving encroachment that took 600 years before two deities came out of it.
My explanation of a struggle that began before the fall of Jhaamdath and ended around the time of the fall of Myth Drannor would encompass those dates.
The write-up of Tyche's split, in Faiths & Avatars, says she was corrupted while she was exploring the Realms. It doesn't give a duration, but I'd expect that it wouldn't take a greater deity more than a handful of years to wander to their heart's content -- particularly a deity known for being fickle. I'd think it was a matter of months, if not weeks.
Knowing how Moander's infection seems to work pretty quickly on mortals, I'd also expect it to not take overly long for a deity. Longer than for a mortal, certainly, but I'd similarly expect weeks or months, rather than years.
There is also the possible idea that Moander's corruptive seed was a little less literal. For instance, his avatar kills the last chosen of Tyche 9 times in one year. Maybe this makes something of a joke amongst the common folk about the luck of Tyche.... because her chosen wasn't so lucky.... some would even say she was mighty unlucky. As the story spread and mortal belief began to modify the actual gods themselves. What was the name of this last Chosen of Tyche? Could it have been Beshaba or something close to it? Over time, could the "ill luck of Beshaba" have become a well known phrase but people don't actually know the story (there's a lot of things that we say like "raining cats and dogs" that people don't know the origins of until they've used the term for years).
All of the above is of course supposition off the top of my head. It might not mesh with the other lore presented for the dawn cataclysm outside of that presented in the GHotR. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 11:44:44
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If you take into account the whole time period from the Fall of Netheril to the Fall of Myth Drannor, it becomes clear that the Dawn Cataclysm seems to be really just a metaphor for the merging of several smaller pantheons from diverse, fairly isolated cultures into a greater united pantheon of a Faerûnian superculture.
Formerly you had several geographically distinct racial/cultural groups: the Netherese, the Jhaamdathans, the Coramshites, the Illuskans, the Rus, and others. First, with the migrations of the surviving Netherese, then followed by the Jhaamdathan (Chondathan) diaspora, the resulting cultural contact led to the spread of a common trade tongue and the spread of ideas and memes between cultures.
This brought gods from different pantheons into contact with each other by way of the clash and mixing of their worshippers in the same geographic areas.
As a result, you had gods battling for control of many contested portfolios. Some gods were "lost" (like the 7 lost gods). Some were triumphant (Tyr vanquishing Valigan Thirdborn, et al.) New gods emerged (eg Savras, Bane, Baal, Myrkul, etc.) And some old, fading gods merged into newer ones (eg Anachtyr into Tyr).
If one accepts that the Dawn Cataclysm spans that great a period of time, then the story of the Dawn Cataclysm really encompasses the changes in and realignment of all the involved pantheons of Faerûn over the course of those many centuries. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 14:19:15
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Gray, you da man. For my Realms, that's exactly what the DC is from now on.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 17:01:47
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| Why, thank you George! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 17:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
If you take into account the whole time period from the Fall of Netheril to the Fall of Myth Drannor, it becomes clear that the Dawn Cataclysm seems to be really just a metaphor for the merging of several smaller pantheons from diverse, fairly isolated cultures into a greater united pantheon of a Faerûnian superculture.
Formerly you had several geographically distinct racial/cultural groups: the Netherese, the Jhaamdathans, the Coramshites, the Illuskans, the Rus, and others. First, with the migrations of the surviving Netherese, then followed by the Jhaamdathan (Chondathan) diaspora, the resulting cultural contact led to the spread of a common trade tongue and the spread of ideas and memes between cultures.
This brought gods from different pantheons into contact with each other by way of the clash and mixing of their worshippers in the same geographic areas.
As a result, you had gods battling for control of many contested portfolios. Some gods were "lost" (like the 7 lost gods). Some were triumphant (Tyr vanquishing Valigan Thirdborn, et al.) New gods emerged (eg Savras, Bane, Baal, Myrkul, etc.) And some old, fading gods merged into newer ones (eg Anachtyr into Tyr).
If one accepts that the Dawn Cataclysm spans that great a period of time, then the story of the Dawn Cataclysm really encompasses the changes in and realignment of all the involved pantheons of Faerûn over the course of those many centuries.
This will probably end up as canon in my Realms, now, I think. With just a few tweaks to reflect some of the historical changes I've made to dates with the Fall of Jhaamdath... this could definitely work as a new basis for my own take on the Dawn Cataclysm.
Awesome stuff, Gray! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 19:49:03
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Here's another thought: It may be called the "Dawn" Cataclysm, and linked intimately with Lathander, because he seems to have arisen to prominence in the Talfiric pantheon sometime after the Fall of Netheril.
While he may have only been recently "born" around the time of Netheril's Fall (or soon after), it's also possible that he had been around in the Talfiric pantheon for a long time. Without another sun god Lathander could have easily been the Talfir's only sun god for quite some time prior, perhaps even always. He would not have been in conflict with Amaunator because they operated in separate geo-political spheres of influence. (Unless the Talfirs somehow had also worshipped Amaunator prior to his demise — even if by some other name.)
With the influx of Netherese, Chondathans and even Calishites into the Talfiric geographic sphere of influence (the Western Heartlands), Lathander (or his clergy) saw a void that he could fill and sought to assert the Talfiric pantheon as supreme in the hearts and minds of the merging cultures.
In some ways he was largely successful, seeing as the Talfiric gods are almost all greater gods in the Faerûnian super-pantheon. Or at least, their Talfiric names and aspects won out over their aspects as conceived by other cultures, as in the case of Chauntea (vs. Jannath), Tempus (vs. Targus/Garagos) and Talos (vs. Kozah/Bhaelros).
The Talfiric pantheon had included Lathander, Suné, Tempus, Chauntea, Talos and Malar.
The Talfiric pantheon had previously merged with/absorbed those gods venerated by the Illuskans (Auril, Umberlee, Valkur), appropriated various Fey gods of the Great Forest and environs (Lurue, Shiallia, Tappan) and some gods of the Finnish pantheon of Earth (Mielikki, Loviatar, Kiputytto), who had taken hold in the North, when, presumably, a group of Finns immigrated to Toril through a portal, or planar rift, in the distant past. (Alternate explanations perhaps include that Finns were brought from Earth to Toril as slaves by the Netherese, or alternatively a forgotten Northern colony of ancient Imaskar).
You know, maybe there were also some deceased/forgotten Talfiric deities who didn't make it through the DC. Surely there must have been. Names that have not been revealed in lore. But those lost Talifiric gods were probably defeated/killed/merged/absorbed by those deities of the Netherese (Selûne, Shar, Mystra, Jergal, Moander) and Chondathan (Helm, Silvanus, Oghma, Talona, Waukeen) pantheons that survived.
Come to think of it, it occurs to me that Beshaba and Tymora might actually have been pre-existing gods from another pantheon. Maybe they were twin goddesses of luck for the Talfirs or the Chondathans. Or maybe one was the god of luck for the Talfirs, and the other for the Chondathans (or Rus, or some other merging pantheon). It's possible that as these gods asserted themselves in the new super-culture, Tyche's name and identity became conflated with the pre-existing gods Tymora and Beshaba.
As the Tyche identity faded, and the Beshaba and Tymora aspects dominated, churches that were previously affiliated with only the unitary Tyche, had to take sides and fell out into camps. The pessimists who propitiated Tyche to avoid bad luck, fell in behind Beshaba. And the optimists who prayed for good luck, threw in with Tymora.
Maybe this was brought to a head after an intrigue involving a Moanderite cult infiltrating into or converting key clergy of Tyche to the service of Moander. Perhaps it was some kind of Moanderite heresy. Maybe they tried to convince the church that Tyche had been reborn as Moander (or vice versa). When it was finally discovered, a purge of the Moanderites from the ranks of the clergy could have decimated the leadership of Tyche's church.
After that, it could have been well primed for the conversion to the Beshaba and Tymora aspects. Especially if much of Tyche's holy books and relics had been destroyed. In the absence of the documents and symbols to transmit the dogma and particulars of Tyche's faith, and the loss of institutional memory due to the death of many senior clergy and old-timers, it would be easier for new dogma and myths to emerge to fill the gaps. Newly initiated clergy may have found themselves suddenly promoted to fill the hierarchy, and without having learned enough of the lore of the church, they made stuff up extemporaneously. Off-the-cuff, ad hoc lore that wound up cemented into place as official tenets.
The myth of Tyche's corruption and split could really just be a mythopoetic interpretation of the more mundane and less savory political machinations between the rival churches of Tyche, Moander, Beshaba and Tymora, and how they transitioned towards a new equilibrium once the dust had settled. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 08:59:10
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As long as your going this path, you may want to throw in the Greek Pantheon. We know that in Impiltur that Poseidon was mentioned (I'd hold that he's been replaced). Tyche is definitely Greek. Lathander could easily be Apollo. Sune could easily be Aphrodite.
One thing that I'd definitely also state is that this Gruumsh/Talos thing is false. To me, Talos appears to be some kind of merging of Odin and Thor (possibly similarly to how Horus and Re had to merge). Given that we have Tyr and the equivalent of the Fenris wolf (Kezef the Chaos Hound) are also in the realms, I wouldn't be surprised if the Norse view of Ragnarok didn't mold itself to become Talos' destructive viewpoint.
In fact, there may have been a whole divine war between the Greek and Norse pantheons that's undocumented because both pantheons barely had a toehold before each mutually destroyed the other (or being destroyed by the giant empires). Hell, for all we know, Lathander is some kind of merger of Frey and Apollo that then merged with Amaunator. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 10:10:34
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In my mind, veneration of the Greco-Roman pantheon came over with the human slaves brought in by the Imaskari from that region of Earth. These people settled in the area known today as Chessenta.
However, the Greek gods themselves were blocked from coming over or interfering with the ancient Chessentans due to the god barrier installed by the Imaskari that created a dimensional block between Earth and Toril, severing many natural links that the two worlds once had shared.
The Mulan overcame this barrier by physically sending manifestations, or super-avatars, over by means of special spelljamming arks. The Greek gods did not bother, so their prayers went unanswered and those gods were forgotten in Faerûn.
Tyche is a special story. One theory is that she came over before the god barrier was established. Perhaps during the War of Light and Darkness as an ally of Selûne. Another theory is that she came over and survived where the other Greek gods did not out of sheer luck, which is her portfolio, after all.
The "Poseidon" you refer to, is probably not the real Poseidon. Rather, I believe he is another god, perhaps Persana, or Eadro, or Istishia, or even Umberlee using Poseidon's name as an alias.
When the Chessentans prayed to the Greek gods, and the Greek gods were blocked from answering (or even hearing I suppose), then that left an opening for SOME god to answer on the Greek god's behalf. As long as someone prayed to the Greek gods, then other gods got the chance to steal the worship by answering to that name as an alias. If any of the Greek gods names survive, I assume they have been assimilated into the aspects of existing Torilian gods who still use those aliases for the benefit of those select communities where the Greco-Roman gods are still remembered and revered. |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 04 May 2013 10:12:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 13:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Come to think of it, it occurs to me that Beshaba and Tymora might actually have been pre-existing gods from another pantheon. Maybe they were twin goddesses of luck for the Talfirs or the Chondathans. Or maybe one was the god of luck for the Talfirs, and the other for the Chondathans (or Rus, or some other merging pantheon). It's possible that as these gods asserted themselves in the new super-culture, Tyche's name and identity became conflated with the pre-existing gods Tymora and Beshaba.
As the Tyche identity faded, and the Beshaba and Tymora aspects dominated, churches that were previously affiliated with only the unitary Tyche, had to take sides and fell out into camps. The pessimists who propitiated Tyche to avoid bad luck, fell in behind Beshaba. And the optimists who prayed for good luck, threw in with Tymora.
I like your other stuff... But I don't think this part works. The fact that Lathander was trying to put Tyche back together, in Tymora's Luck, indicates that the current info about Tyche splitting is indeed correct.
On another note, to keep some of the other lore straight, I would suggest that with the merger of pantheons going on, perhaps what Lathander was trying to do was to keep the evil deities from the other pantheons out. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 14:10:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
In my mind, veneration of the Greco-Roman pantheon came over with the human slaves brought in by the Imaskari from that region of Earth. These people settled in the area known today as Chessenta.
However, the Greek gods themselves were blocked from coming over or interfering with the ancient Chessentans due to the god barrier installed by the Imaskari that created a dimensional block between Earth and Toril, severing many natural links that the two worlds once had shared.
The Mulan overcame this barrier by physically sending manifestations, or super-avatars, over by means of special spelljamming arks. The Greek gods did not bother, so their prayers went unanswered and those gods were forgotten in Faerûn.
Tyche is a special story. One theory is that she came over before the god barrier was established. Perhaps during the War of Light and Darkness as an ally of Selûne. Another theory is that she came over and survived where the other Greek gods did not out of sheer luck, which is her portfolio, after all.
The "Poseidon" you refer to, is probably not the real Poseidon. Rather, I believe he is another god, perhaps Persana, or Eadro, or Istishia, or even Umberlee using Poseidon's name as an alias.
When the Chessentans prayed to the Greek gods, and the Greek gods were blocked from answering (or even hearing I suppose), then that left an opening for SOME god to answer on the Greek god's behalf. As long as someone prayed to the Greek gods, then other gods got the chance to steal the worship by answering to that name as an alias. If any of the Greek gods names survive, I assume they have been assimilated into the aspects of existing Torilian gods who still use those aliases for the benefit of those select communities where the Greco-Roman gods are still remembered and revered.
Hmmm, I don't know if I like this or not. While the Chessentans are modeled on Greek society without a doubt, there is no hint of worship of these gods..... except for Lathander, who is favored, which does bring an interesting twist to all of this.
On the Norse idea, Helm and Heimdall also bear a striking resemblance (especially when he was guarding the rainbow bridges aka celestial stairways to heaven during the avatar crisis). We also have the world serpent and the Norse giant gods. Dendarr the Night Serpent is also called Nidhogg, which is the wyrm that gnawed on the roots of the world tree. I'd also surmise that Ao may have performed something of a trick on the gods when he made Cyric a god, because he may have used the astral "husk" of Loki for the source of the divine power and simply imposed some of Cyric's memory upon it.
So, what happened to make Talos out of the personalities of Thor and Odin? I'm thinking somehow or other the battle of Ragnarok was kicked off. Maybe this was the war between the Primordials and the Gods. Technically both Odin and Thor were killed, and maybe they were brought back together as Talos by say Shar and turned Evil. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 16:25:11
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Well, going with your idea sleyvas, Shar could have constructed him from the shadow of Odin, which was lost in his fight with Ven'dol, a sort of giant vampire, mentioned in Frettir the strong, and the spirit of Thor's hammer, the part that wasn't recovered by the dwarves, after it was broken. Perhaps she managed to snatch both before the Imaskari blocks came up. Obviously, she thought she could use what she created in her war.
At any case, I've always thought of Chessenta is originally founded by the people that would found the Greek civilizations, who were taken during the earliest days of the development of around that region of earth.
Going back to our topic before the days of Thunder, I've wondered if the "radiation" that's supposed to exist in the underdark, isn't the after affects of elemental energies left over from a giant elemental war. I've got notes on the concept round here someplace, will post when I find them. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 21:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
If you take into account the whole time period from the Fall of Netheril to the Fall of Myth Drannor, it becomes clear that the Dawn Cataclysm seems to be really just a metaphor for the merging of several smaller pantheons from diverse, fairly isolated cultures into a greater united pantheon of a Faerûnian superculture.
+20 for this sentence alone.
Faerunian Superculture... that just makes me grin ear-to-ear. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 18:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Well, going with your idea sleyvas, Shar could have constructed him from the shadow of Odin, which was lost in his fight with Ven'dol, a sort of giant vampire, mentioned in Frettir the strong, and the spirit of Thor's hammer, the part that wasn't recovered by the dwarves, after it was broken. Perhaps she managed to snatch both before the Imaskari blocks came up. Obviously, she thought she could use what she created in her war.
At any case, I've always thought of Chessenta is originally founded by the people that would found the Greek civilizations, who were taken during the earliest days of the development of around that region of earth.
Going back to our topic before the days of Thunder, I've wondered if the "radiation" that's supposed to exist in the underdark, isn't the after affects of elemental energies left over from a giant elemental war. I've got notes on the concept round here someplace, will post when I find them.
I like the idea of Shar making Talos from the "shadow of Odin". Actually, maybe what I like more is Shar making Talos from the combined spirits of ALL the fallen Norse gods (with the aspects of Thor and Odin showing more than the others). If the Norse gods that fell were around during the "Days of Thunder", maybe some of the original humans and/or humanoids on the face of Toril worshipped the Norse Gods during this time period. In fact, maybe Thor was such a popular deity during this time that the "Thunder God" is the reason this era is known as the "Days of Thunder". It would kind of fit that the Norse deities might guide humans from this era, as the world is coming out of an ice age and some of the original creator races were humans. When the batrachi release several primordials in -31000 DR, that could have been the start of "Ragnarok". We know that at the end of Ragnarok only some of the Norse deities are fated to survive, so perhaps Heimdall/Helm survived. Some of the deities may have even been entrapped only to be released later (such as Tyr). I could easily come up with a bajillion "this deity is actually X god" scenarios for some other deities to have other Norse deities being in the Faerunian pantheon, but they don't really promote creativity in the campaign world (whereas I truly believe this Odin/Thor combination to make Talos could be turned into something.... perhaps a heresy of the church seeks to free the two aspects of father and son... and in so doing opposes the church of Shar).
Now, are there flaws in some of this theory. Yes, for instance, why is Kezef chained again if Ragnarok has happened? Anwer: when Ao twinned the worlds of Abeir and Toril, he rebound Kezef.
On the Kezef idea, its thought that the original god of death (thought to be Jergal) created him in response to the other gods reaping the souls of the dead after life. We all know that Loki fathered Fenris on Angrboda (a giant witch), and that he also fathered Jormungandr (the world serpent) and Hel (lets call her the 2nd goddess of death) in our world. We also know that Fenris is destined to swallow the moon, which would seem to align with Shar's goals. I submit that Loki fathered Kezef (aka Fenris), the first goddess of death (aka Hel), and Ourobouros the world serpent (aka Jormungandr) on Shar. Now, whether Dendar the Night Serpent is another child of Loki's, a split off from Ourobouros, or something else entirely... I'm open for ideas. In fact, it could be that Loki fathered Dendar and not Ourobouros.
Also, just to throw out something unusual as well.... what if Chauntea was the great cow Audumla that licked the first living beings from the ice in the void Ginunngagap (the void where the opposites heat and cold met).
In this idea, Alfheim and the feywild would be the same. Svartalfheim could be the shadowfell. Asgard and Vanaheim would be the outer planes, with possibly another pantheon that isn't the Norse being the Vanir from which Frey and Freya came. Jotunheim, Muspelheim, Nidavellir, and Niflheim could be the elemental planes or destinations in the elemental chaos. Hel/Niflhel was probably created with the first death and essentially is the fugue plane. None of this last section would I dedicate as "hard in stone" for the realms, but it does represent some working ideas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 22:10:41
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Talos... Tallow... now I am picturing Shar forming the body of Talos out of wax... 
Anyhow, I use the name Wôtan instead of Odin as the 'primal' representation of the Nordic high God. It just makes it less... jarring... then using the better-known real world god (names). I also say that Annam is Wôtan, as worshipped in the Giantish pantheon. So if Gruumsh is Talos, and Wôtan is Annam, then all of these may be one and the same (although all different manifestations for different worshipers).
We know that the Aesir had a confrontation with the Vanir (the fey pantheon), and thats how several of the Vanir came to live in Asgard (they were technically hostages). Translating this into D&D mythos, we can see that the giants and fey had some sort of disagreement - it probably involved dragons (since both of those races have a long history with dragons). In some of my musings (and that one 4e article) I have it where Corellon and Gruumsh were brothers; twins actually, but with different fathers. If we use that - and that 4e article - we could easily translate all of that into the conflict between the Aesir (Wôtan/Annam/Talos/Gruumsh) and the Vanir (The early fey pantheon, from whence the Seldarine emerged from). In fact, we could even bring in some Vedic elements - some scholars have linked the Aesir to the Hindu Asura, so that would mean the Vedic/Hindu pantheon was probably allied with the fey pantheon early on (hence the hatred between the Asura {Aesir} and the Devas). I think that first godwar was more about Law and chaos, and not so much about Evil (which may have been born of that war).
Anyhow, I went off on a tangent. What I actually wanted to say is that I think the Feywild has always existed - at least since the first Sundering (which I think created the multiverse, not just Toril and Abeir). I think it started out as giant realm (which fits the Celtic myths), but at some point the Fey (Tuatha Dé Danann) invaded their realm and drove them 'underground (into the mounatins). I figure this was during the 'time of darkness' (going back to the OP now) - the Fey were most-likely refugees.
What they did was create their own realm - Faerie - within the Feywild. Some folks think the two are synonymous, but that's only what the Fey want us to believe. Its things like that that the giants are still angry over - it was the 'giant wild' before it was the Feywild. Then, within Faerie (an area larger then an Earth-sized planet within the Feywild) there are different 'kingdoms', and Alfheim is just one part of that (I have it where that is the home of the 'Light Elves', which Sharlario Moonflower - the first Moon Elf - hailed from. In Elaine's Evermeet novel, it is said he was from the far north of Faerie). So, 'Faerie' means three things. It is the continent-proper where the Fey (and all their offspring, which include the elves) live, and it also the geenral region within the Feywild that would include the isle of Tintageer (now sunk) and Alfheim (a mountainous region to the north, bordering the giant lands). Svartálfheim may be below those same mountains, and there are probably numerous smaller islands such as Tír na nÓg and Avalon (a place where half-fey - spiritfolk - may dwell) that are part of the greater Faerie 'cluster'. Then there is the usage of the word as another name for the Feywild itself, which as I stated above is really a misnomer, because the Feywild is so much more.
To me, the Feywild is an imperfect copy of Arcane space (the Ethereal) itself, but in miniature. There are land-mass clusters that correspond to every world, and depending upon how the magic (and Fey) of that world are doing, thats how that part of the Feywild would appear. So there would be a dismal, dreary cluster of islands (reminiscent of a map of Earth) that mirror our own world. The Shadowfel is setup in much the same way - its just the flipside of the cosmic coin. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 May 2013 22:16:00 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 05:37:19
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Back on the topic of Toril's pre-history, I've been pondering about the Salamander wars between the aquatic creator race and the genies of the elemental planes. I need to read up some on the lore of Zakhara, but I was thinking there might be a connection.
I was considering that after the octopoids had contact and went to war with the salamanders on the Elemental Plane of Fire, it escalated when the ifrits became involved, then other genie races, and soon the Marids were colonizing huge swaths of the oceans setting up what I'm referring to as the Marid Estates. Many octopoid tribes or nations were enslaved by their elemental masters, until they learned magics to bind, compel and entrap the genies in rings and gems and such.
I wonder if the Land of Fate, back when it was submerged in the Blue Age, was perhaps a hotbed, a ground zero even for some of the major events in the Salamander Wars and the rebellion against the Marids.
It would be a natural reason for there to be many gates and rifts to the elemental planes found in that location, as well as artifacts containing imprisoned genies. There might even be some lore we could surmise about the geography of the place, and how it might have been affected.
Perhaps genies raised some of the land above the waves, literally "terraforming" the face of Toril to make for more suitable environments for efreets, dao and djinn to occupy. Plus, it makes for more defensible strongholds. The octopoids could not go up on land at that point. (Unless the doppelgangers were bred around that time as shocktroops for harrowing the genies on their own turf.) Under the ocean, the genie palaces were vulnerable to attack from all sides, including from above. On land, the octopoids were limited to attacking from the surface, and that was only if they could find a way (suits, spells, or vehicles?) to emerge onto land in the first place. It would make great sense for genies to raise up some islands or expand them into greater land areas for the purpose of both their comfort and defense.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 13:23:52
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Al-Qadim lore tells very little of Zahkara's ancient past. It only briefly mentiones of a great war that raged in the Land of Fate's ancient past, waged between gods of the southern isles in the Crowded Sea and genies of the Northern desert mainlands over a (supposedly human?) girl. The humans supposedly lived in two ancient kingdoms, Nog and Kadar, the first civilisations of Zakhara. This girl was eventualy visited by an elemental overdeity-like entitie with a supreme understanding of Fate, and the girl became the Loregiver by writing down Fates laws of honorable conduct in scrolls and ending the conflict.
One can assume Nog and Kadar were lands originally under custody by genies but taken over by gods (or vice versa, the lore is scant on this). If a higher sealevel is our starting initial situation, it's possible that the human civilisations of Zakhara, Nog And Kadar, are contenders for being among first human colonies/settlements on the gen-fortified continent of Merrouroboros. They are situated on the southeastern shores of the mainland of Zakharan, so I think the gods and their followers sailed in through the Foreigners' Sea from a land far to the east.
The southern genie-godswar could be a metaphore for the divinely driven changing of the lands; from an elementally reinforced supercontinent into each of the travelling gods indiviual paradises. Somehow the northerns deserts and scattered southern isles that the Lands of Fate are now are the result of the struggle of the gods (who I think could be the same allied group of gods named the Nine Travellers in Karatur) to get a footing into genie controlled lands. It makes sense that, as the deities gained more footing on the lands, the raw elements of the lands became more bearable for occupation by mortal races. The gods paradises were at one point shattered into the Crowded Seas isles as they are now, and for some reason the deities permanently left, with only ruins of their works remaining.
The few that are still remembered (and their most likely Faerunian and Karaturan alias) are Old Kor (Tyr/Fa Kuan), Learned Zhan (Oghma/Ch'en Hisiang or Chih Shih), Brave Hajama (Tempus/Chan Cheng), Najim the Adventurous (Tymora/Hsing Yong), Selan the Beautiful Moon (Selune/Ai Ch'hing), Jisan of the Floods (Waukeen/Shi Chia), Haku of the Desert Winds (Shaundakul/Ch'en Hisiang or Chih Shih) and Hakiyah of the Sea Breezes (Lathander/Kwan Ying). Somehow Fate managed sever to both the gens and deities prominent links to the Land of Fate.
It could also be that the Nine travellers originated from Nog and Kadar and settled Kara-Tur, though. This means they most have fled the Lands of Fate after Fate ordained their meddling not honorable, and they gained a secure haven by establishing the Celestial Beaurocracy in the Far East.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Before the Days of Thunder—the Prehistory of Toril
