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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 13:32:56
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just an idea here based on older lore. What if the race of sea creatures was the Shalarin? What if Selune (or Chauntea) essentially opened time gates in the past in order to save them when Dendar swallowed the sun?
FROM SEA OF FALLEN STARS
The shalarin originally migrated to Serôs through an undersea gate from their home in the Sea of Corynactis. Some sages theorize that this sea is either on the far-off
planet of Karpri in Realmspace or on the other side of the planet Toril! The #147;wild tide#148; that brought them thus was part of a long-foretold destiny of the shalarin people: #147;Five
times will the great tide turn and five times a bridge arcs between worlds new and old. The castes shall go forth on that bridge and share the bounty each Passing allows. One
for Hand, one for Heart, one for Head, and one for Currents. The Fifth Passing shares nothing but judges, and it will restore the shalarin as one or see them scattered ever.#148;
Four Passings have occurred and the Fifth is imminent#151; the Feast of the Moon in the Year of the Unstrung Harp. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 13:38:19
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I just thought of something - The death of Re (Ra) is considered Toril's first deicide... but doesn't that mean the first sun wasn't a deity at all, just a blob of plasma?
Unless I am right, and that war actually occurred in the theoretical 'first world', which was destroyed (Sundered/Shattered). Then it wouldn't count as Toril's first deicide. 
It also means that Malar DID NOT kill Herne on (Abeir-)Toril, because that, too, would have been considered the first deicide. wish I had thought of that back when I was having all those arguments with Lord Karsus (that the world Lolth found Malar on couldn't have possibly been Toril, since she was completely unaware of Toril until later in that novel/the timeline).
Of course, the world all of that happened on - Abeir-Toril no longer exists either, Technically, anyway. That pretty much throws the whole "the first..." argument right out the window.
I do not believe the first sun was sentient... at least not yet, anyway. That would mean that its destruction would have been the first 'death', before the war even started. Also, we have no idea how long that war went on - it could have been millions of years, which would be meaningless to immortal, primordial gods like Shar and Selune. The Creator Races could have evolved, built civilizations, and been destroyed all in that time between the creation of the first sun, and it's destruction. How long have WE been civilized? 10,00 years, give or take? Thats an eye=blink to an elder god.
And that last bit got me thinking... WHY did Shar get so outraged? And did that happen immediately? Could it be the mortals that came into being on 'the world' began to worship Selune and her child, the Sun? Could that be why Shar went postal? The new creatures crawled out of the darkness... turned from it. Think about it - the very concept of 'deity' may have been born at that time; a being that receives worship (energy) from other beings. Selune may unwittingly (or knowingly?) tipped the balance of power in her favor be her creation of the Sun.
Thus, Selune was/is a Primordial, but she was also the first deity as well. By causing mortals to worship her, she created the first god/mortal symbiotic relationship. As time went on, other beings (including fiends, archons, and even uber-powerful mortals) also gained the mantle of 'deity'. If Shar and Selune were THE powers in the universe at that time, I think Shar may have been infuriated at this series of events. The War may have not broken out for thousands upon thousands of years until after civilizations rose on the world.
I'm still not sure how Chauntea fits in... if anything, she is one-half of the original, 'broken' deity (the other half being attached to Abeir). That means the Earth Mother might be the WHOLE deity, in much the same way Tyche is to Tymora and Beshaba.
So now I am picturing some sort of female version of Chauntea for Abeir - his sister, and 'missing' other half. This situation is almost like an Apollo/Artemis kind of thing (sort of). I can think of some pretty cool myths to attach to that. 
EDIT:
Okay, after re-reading what I wrote, I realize now that we can just throw away the term 'first sun', because Abeir-Toril had only ONE sun. After the war the world was Sundered, and then the new Sun shone down upon the New World - it never shone on Abeir-Toril! As far as we know, Abeir had/has no sun - it just has a silvery sky (provided somehow by the demiplane its shifted into).
In fact, that could be the reason Abeir has no sun: We've been told that Abeir lies within Realmspace, but out of phase with the rest of it. Thus, Abeir could be orbiting the SAME SUN in the same orbit as Toril, but on the opposite side! Because of the 'shield' (demi-plane?) its encased in, it cannot 'see' the sun, but its still affected by its gravity and other energies.
Hmph... Maybe Lathander and Aumantor take turns. Maybe they are also two halves of a sun god, and each half is responsible for one half of the original, Sundered world. Neither likes Abeir (the people can't see their sun, so they do not worship a sun god), so they have to take turns to make it fair.
LOL - Abeir is the 'ghetto planet' of the universe.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2013 13:45:46 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 13:53:25
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| You know, one thing that also occurs to me.... Chauntea is the earthmother of Toril.... the other planets, do they have their own gods/goddesses? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 14:08:34
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
just an idea here based on older lore. What if the race of sea creatures was the Shalarin?
I still think they missed a GOLDEN opportunity to merge old lore with new, by saying the Shalarin were from Abeir. I think that is my least favorite entry in the GHotR - its extremely counter-intuitive, giving what that tome was actually trying to accomplish (bridging the editions).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What if Selune (or Chauntea) essentially opened time gates in the past in order to save them when Dendar swallowed the sun?
We've already had some major mucking-around with time in regards to FR, with both the Sundering (including the Elven version), and the Dawn Cataclysm... hmmmmm... just noticed the name of that. 'Dawn' may refer to time, not the sun at all. Hmmmmmm.....
Anyhow, time-travel type answers tend to rub folks the wrong way. What I think is that she somehow managed to give them more time. Perhaps thats when the demiplane of Abeir was first created - the 'silver sky' of its shell provided sutenance while the war raged on. Just an idea, of course...
I've also come to the conclusion that each creator Race found ways in which to change themselves in order to survive. The Fey severed their connections to the First (True) World and either created or migrated to the Feywild (I personally think it was already there, inhabited by primordial giants - they just shunted the realm of Faerie into it). The Sarrukh gained the power to alter their descendents (their 'creations', as it were), so that their knowledge and civilization could live on. The Batrachi were able to alter their physical forms to better survive. The Aeriee, sadly, mostly died-out, accept for those few that found places to hide (like the Corbies that went into the Underdark).
Humans - the original uber-race* - traded some of their 'uberness' for the ability to adapt to any set of circumstances. Its their one 'super power' in D&D. While other races sit around and debate about what to do, or where to go, humans simply react and adapt. Their 'social reflexes' are without peer. They can survive in any terrain and under any circumstances, because the instinctively go into 'survival mode' (they automatically work together, without having to establish a chain-of-command, or debate things). Their 'herd animal' overrides their inner predator when the need arises.
*And by this I mean a character with straight 21's as stats, kinda like the 'High Men' of the MERP setting, or the Azlanti of Golarion/PF. I picture the original Blackmoorians as near super-human in all aspects. The 'heroes' (PC's) of the world are throwbacks to that earlier genetic strain - they are a 'cut above' everyone else. They are able to tap into their buried DNA and reach their full potential (as any human could, if they merely tried).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 14:32:44
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I find it interesting that the first "deicide" was also a sun god..... However, the timeframe is absolutely all wrong that Re's death a mere 2400 years ago is the first death of a god by another god. I submit an alternative (albeit, by definition of the word, incorrect) version. Perhaps "deicide" in realmspace means "giving up one's existence in protection of one's mortal worshippers"... somewhat akin to a suicide-martyrdom. Don't know if I like that answer, but one must ponder all suppositions.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 14:56:21
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That was a statement from a very early product, that hasn't been dropped due to 'new information'.
I don't know which is worse - designers that think changing EVERYTHING is a good thing, or designers who adhere to past-lore with an almost anal fervor. Sometimes you just gotta ditch garbage - not everything is worth saving.
When that was written, almost nothing was known about anything that occurred before that. Now that we have a rather comprehensive history going back some 36,000+ years, that old blurb should just be swept under the rug. As far as I am concerned, what it means is "the first deicide in modern times". As in, recorded human history. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 15:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know, one thing that also occurs to me.... Chauntea is the earthmother of Toril.... the other planets, do they have their own gods/goddesses?
Chauntea/Jannath/Earth Mother was originally the goddess of life for all of Realmspace. Or, more appropriately, she is a fragment of that original goddess.
I believe that, just as Chautea is fragmented herself into the Earth Mother and possibly other aspects of herself, the original goddess of life in Realmspace has fragmented to become separate entities for each planet or distinct socio-mythological group in Realmspace.
I am particularly intrigued with the notion that the Great Mother goddess of the beholder race is an ancient fragment of Chauntea, as evisaged and twisted by the collective beholder psyche of the inhabitants of the planet H'catha in Toril's solar system.
Glyth may had it's own fragment of Chautea, but that one was consumed by the mind flayer god Illsensine, who subsumed her into himself. Thus, Illsensine has appropriated her portfolios for the planet Glyth.
But I feel certain that wherever there is life in Realmspace, a fragment of the goddess Chauntea is (or at least once was) present in some form other, even though she might not be recognizable to us as the Chauntea fragment that we are familiar with as envisaged in the human pantheon of Faerûn. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 15:44:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When that was written, almost nothing was known about anything that occurred before that. Now that we have a rather comprehensive history going back some 36,000+ years, that old blurb should just be swept under the rug. As far as I am concerned, what it means is "the first deicide in modern times". As in, recorded human history.
I very much agree with this sentiment. I think the key word is "considered" the first deicide, and by that I think it means considered by certain sages who are unaware of prior history. Surely there were many more deicides before that one, even if they are not generally known to sages.
There's a cultural bias there too. Those human sages are probably only considering human gods, when there are many other prominent races on Toril whose history should not be discounted. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 15:58:03
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| It could also mean death of a deity with no chance of returning. Since the Mulhorandi deities of the time were not tied to the outer planes (they were manifestations), there was no astral body formed (at least that's my interpretation, since they had no outer planar residence). This would be different than any other prior godly death. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 04:02:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We've already had some major mucking-around with time in regards to FR, with both the Sundering (including the Elven version), and the Dawn Cataclysm... hmmmmm... just noticed the name of that. 'Dawn' may refer to time, not the sun at all. Hmmmmmm.....
Pretty sure the Dawn Cataclysm refers to Lathander, the god of dawn, since it was caused by his actions.
And there's nothing saying that the Dawn Cataclysm involved mucking around with time. The official line is that it can't be dated, because "it happened outside of time." Of course, that disregards the fact that it can be narrowed down to between 700 and 714 DR... |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 05:26:41
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Not sure if that's right about being narrowed down. I'm a little rusty on my Dawn Cataclysm lore because I had long ago settled with it being unsettled. I was persuaded by Eric Boyd's arguments about mythological time, and how you just can't say with any certainty how those mythological events that happen away from the view of any mortal eye could align with mortal chronology.
On my own timeline, I see several possible dates that could match up to events from the Dawn Cataclysm. But those dates start as early as -255 DR, when Jhaamdath fell and Murdane was supposedly drowned by Umberlee. They include circa 136 when Azuth ascended, circa 661 when Amaunator's body appeared in the Astral Sea and I have 714, (the Fall of Myth Drannor) only as the upper limit of the date range. And I have several conflicting dates for the rise of Lathander.
I think people grew cognizant of the death of Amaunator and the rise of Lathander a little bit analogous to the way Time Zones work. The sun can have set in the east and still be high in the sky in the west, and so too did Lathander rise in some areas, became known and became worshipped, and in those places Amaunator was thought to have already died. While elsewhere, Amaunator was still alive (if only on life-support) and no one had yet heard of Lathander. It took centuries for the mythological shift to implement across the continent.
The Dawn Cataclysm is impossible to date because, in mythological time, the sequence of events happened over a seemingly short period of time and close together. But the real world consequences of those events happened at vastly different times in different places around Faerûn.
Eric Boyd stated the case far better than I could, but even though there may be real world fall out from those mythological events that you can put a date on, those real world events may be scattered across a great span of time to the point that they don't correspond one-to-one with events that should have happened close together on the mythological side of the timeline, at least in the telling of the myth.
I think Eric's notion of mythological time breaks conventional notions of simultaneity in a similar way to how Einstein's theory of Relativity contradicts our own common sense conceptions of simultaneity in the physics of our world.
In the way that particles travel as waves at no greater speed than that of light in Einstein's theory, I think that mythological events propagate at much slower rates across Faerûn, sociologically, at the rate that stories spread and grow. Probably the same rate that clothing fashions propagate across the continent, or hair-styles, or new slang words, and other such similar cultural phenomena. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 14:53:54
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@Wooly - we will have to agree to disagree, me thinks.
IMHO, something 'happening outside of time' IS "mucking around with time". As far as I am concerned, ANYTHING that occurs outside the limits of the normal setting timeline is 'mucking'. When something - an event, a being, etc - can IGNORE time itself, thats some pretty major-league 'mucking'.
YMMV
And why does Lathander only have to be limited to some firey orb in the sky? The word 'Dawn' can apply to several things, and the 'Dawn Cataclysm' itself could relate to either the Sundering, or some portion of it (the part that affected time itself, methinks, since apparently the timeline was altered when the world got Sundered.)
I blame it all on the Elves... but then again, I always do.
The Sundering 'reached backwards and forwards in time', and somehow the Elves tapped into that (with the ritual that created Evermeet), and then we have something called 'The Dawn Cataclysm' which happened 'outside of time'. I think its all related somehow. There is the world that should have been (Abeir-Toril), and then there is the Sundered (twin) worlds of Abeir and Toril, which should have never existed.
Not sure who actually 'broke' time, but it seems to me Ao's 'patch job' is finally falling apart. Or should I say, coming together? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2013 14:55:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 15:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - we will have to agree to disagree, me thinks.
IMHO, something 'happening outside of time' IS "mucking around with time". As far as I am concerned, ANYTHING that occurs outside the limits of the normal setting timeline is 'mucking'. When something - an event, a being, etc - can IGNORE time itself, thats some pretty major-league 'mucking'.
As I see it, mucking around with time involves making changes to the flow of time. If something happens that does not impact the flow of time -- or happens outside of time -- it's not making any changes to it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 15:06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Not sure if that's right about being narrowed down. I'm a little rusty on my Dawn Cataclysm lore because I had long ago settled with it being unsettled. I was persuaded by Eric Boyd's arguments about mythological time, and how you just can't say with any certainty how those mythological events that happen away from the view of any mortal eye could align with mortal chronology
Some of the earliest references to the Dawn Cataclysm say it presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, which was from 712-714. We know that Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm, though it's not apparent if it's a related event. And we know that there was a schism in Tyche's church, with it splitting into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba, during 8th century DR -- 700 to 799.
So the schism logically happened soon after the split, and the split happened during the Dawn Cataclysm. If this happened before Myth Drannor fell, but still in the 8th Century, then we have a timeframe of 700 to 712 or 714. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Apr 2013 15:07:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 15:25:03
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Okay, but since we know time was somehow involved (because even if it was ignored, as in "outside of..."), that means that you CAN'T pin a date on it, and the event itself could have 'manifested' within the timeline at several points.
In other words, the Dawn Cataclysm itself happened somewhere, if no somewhen, and whoever was involved probably understands what was changed, but people who were not directly involved (including 'powers') may not be aware at all of the changes - that's how those types of paradoxes usually resolve themselves.
Regardless, lets call the actual event 'A'. Now 'A' did not happen 'within' time, but its after-effects were felt within the timeline, and one part of it could have manifested in -35,000 DR, another in 712 DR, and another may occur in 1500 DR (or whenever). Its a singular event wherever it occurred, but its outcome could be spread across 37K+ years of Realmspace history.
If time cannot be applied to it, then it could be considered continuous, FOREVER. It may have been something that was set in motion at the Dawn of Time, and continues to have repercussions. Its seems to me that Lathander (and whoever else was involved) tried to alter something (the way the Elves did to create Evermeet) by reaching back to the beginning, and it snowballed (applying the 'Butterfly effect').
Now, what if Lathander was the first sun god? After all, he is the 'Dawn Lord'. What if he's not supposed to be around anymore? However, if he did exist before time became applied to the 'first world' (which he would have if he were connected to that first sun), before death and entropy entered the world (both 'children' of time), then time itself may not apply to Lathander on some level. If he existed in that timeless 'before time' age, he may have been aware of his demise, and did something (Dawn Cataclysm?) to prevent it. That may be why we have the paradox of two sun-gods sharing the job.
I think whatever Lathander did, it was to save his own arse.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2013 15:25:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 16:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, but since we know time was somehow involved (because even if it was ignored, as in "outside of..."), that means that you CAN'T pin a date on it, and the event itself could have 'manifested' within the timeline at several points.
In other words, the Dawn Cataclysm itself happened somewhere, if no somewhen, and whoever was involved probably understands what was changed, but people who were not directly involved (including 'powers') may not be aware at all of the changes - that's how those types of paradoxes usually resolve themselves.
Regardless, lets call the actual event 'A'. Now 'A' did not happen 'within' time, but its after-effects were felt within the timeline, and one part of it could have manifested in -35,000 DR, another in 712 DR, and another may occur in 1500 DR (or whenever). Its a singular event wherever it occurred, but its outcome could be spread across 37K+ years of Realmspace history.
If time cannot be applied to it, then it could be considered continuous, FOREVER. It may have been something that was set in motion at the Dawn of Time, and continues to have repercussions. Its seems to me that Lathander (and whoever else was involved) tried to alter something (the way the Elves did to create Evermeet) by reaching back to the beginning, and it snowballed (applying the 'Butterfly effect').
Now, what if Lathander was the first sun god? After all, he is the 'Dawn Lord'. What if he's not supposed to be around anymore? However, if he did exist before time became applied to the 'first world' (which he would have if he were connected to that first sun), before death and entropy entered the world (both 'children' of time), then time itself may not apply to Lathander on some level. If he existed in that timeless 'before time' age, he may have been aware of his demise, and did something (Dawn Cataclysm?) to prevent it. That may be why we have the paradox of two sun-gods sharing the job.
I think whatever Lathander did, it was to save his own arse.
Actually, if time was involved, that means specific points of time were involved, and it can therefore be tied to them.
Also, we know the Dawn Cataclysm was Lathander trying to do his own Kingpriest of Istar impression: trying to forcibly get rid of all evil.
I personally think that the "outside of time" explanation was used simply to avoid nailing down a specific date. I also think that this does not work when the event in question has effects that can be traced to a specific timeframe. I also don't think it works when there is no reason given for how or why it should occur outside of time, or when its the only thing that does occur outside of time. Lastly, I don't see how something can happen when time isn't passing to allow it to happen.
Prior to 3E, there weren't a lot of game designers I disagreed with, or that I questioned their design decisions. But this is one I have to disagree with, especially since -- as I've already pointed out -- we can nail it down to a pretty specific timeframe. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Apr 2013 16:12:26 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 03:20:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally think that the "outside of time" explanation was used simply to avoid nailing down a specific date.
In defence of designers who favour this position, though, like Eric Boyd, I still think there's some basis for it.
Keeping something like this open does make it easier for it to be worked with/upon later... perhaps as newer lore is explored in relation to the events either leading up to the Dawn Cataclysm, or during, or, maybe, even after. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 14:55:12
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Shouldn't there have been a 'Days of Lightening' just before the Days of Thunder?
...........
Hmph... I was trying to make a joke, but if we look at 'Lightening' differently, it actually makes sense. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 15:54:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, but since we know time was somehow involved (because even if it was ignored, as in "outside of..."), that means that you CAN'T pin a date on it, and the event itself could have 'manifested' within the timeline at several points.
In other words, the Dawn Cataclysm itself happened somewhere, if no somewhen, and whoever was involved probably understands what was changed, but people who were not directly involved (including 'powers') may not be aware at all of the changes - that's how those types of paradoxes usually resolve themselves.
Regardless, lets call the actual event 'A'. Now 'A' did not happen 'within' time, but its after-effects were felt within the timeline, and one part of it could have manifested in -35,000 DR, another in 712 DR, and another may occur in 1500 DR (or whenever). Its a singular event wherever it occurred, but its outcome could be spread across 37K+ years of Realmspace history.
If time cannot be applied to it, then it could be considered continuous, FOREVER. It may have been something that was set in motion at the Dawn of Time, and continues to have repercussions. Its seems to me that Lathander (and whoever else was involved) tried to alter something (the way the Elves did to create Evermeet) by reaching back to the beginning, and it snowballed (applying the 'Butterfly effect').
Now, what if Lathander was the first sun god? After all, he is the 'Dawn Lord'. What if he's not supposed to be around anymore? However, if he did exist before time became applied to the 'first world' (which he would have if he were connected to that first sun), before death and entropy entered the world (both 'children' of time), then time itself may not apply to Lathander on some level. If he existed in that timeless 'before time' age, he may have been aware of his demise, and did something (Dawn Cataclysm?) to prevent it. That may be why we have the paradox of two sun-gods sharing the job.
I think whatever Lathander did, it was to save his own arse.
Actually, if time was involved, that means specific points of time were involved, and it can therefore be tied to them.
Also, we know the Dawn Cataclysm was Lathander trying to do his own Kingpriest of Istar impression: trying to forcibly get rid of all evil.
I personally think that the "outside of time" explanation was used simply to avoid nailing down a specific date. I also think that this does not work when the event in question has effects that can be traced to a specific timeframe. I also don't think it works when there is no reason given for how or why it should occur outside of time, or when its the only thing that does occur outside of time. Lastly, I don't see how something can happen when time isn't passing to allow it to happen.
Prior to 3E, there weren't a lot of game designers I disagreed with, or that I questioned their design decisions. But this is one I have to disagree with, especially since -- as I've already pointed out -- we can nail it down to a pretty specific timeframe.
I'm still researching this historical aspect, so bare with me. I'm To suggest something on purely rational grounds. Time has to exist on some level if the universe exists, the character of time might be vastly different, but for actions to be carried out, for the impact of those actions have to have any repercution on the landscape, they must occur through time. Given that none of the Gods in D&D are omnipresent, they are forced to work through temperial occurrences. That said, logically speaking, the phrase “outside of time,” can be used to denote two distinct possibilities. The first, is an event that affects the entire course of realities perception, both forward and backward. An instance of this, is an event that shows how an entire series of past events leads up to the present event, and who’s future impact cannot be derictly processed. The second, and equally likely, but seems less applicable in this instence, is an event that’s occurrence happened outside the flow of time. To think of this another way, is that the event is unaffected by temporal forces, but in turn affects them. The only example for this in modern scientific vanacular is the forces responsible for gravity. For me, I always considered the Netherese God to be the first, but that’s simply do to personal preference. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 17:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some of the earliest references to the Dawn Cataclysm say it presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, which was from 712-714. We know that Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm, though it's not apparent if it's a related event. And we know that there was a schism in Tyche's church, with it splitting into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba, during 8th century DR -- 700 to 799.
So the schism logically happened soon after the split, and the split happened during the Dawn Cataclysm. If this happened before Myth Drannor fell, but still in the 8th Century, then we have a timeframe of 700 to 712 or 714.
Ah, but Murdane was alive during the Dawn Cataclysm, she was one of Lathander's generals and his primary strategist. She supposedly died in -255 DR when Jhaamdath drowned in a tidal wave. So then the Dawn Cataclysm couldn't have possibly happened after -255 DR, right?
No, I think we simply cannot assign a specific date. The Dawn Cataclysm never touched or had any physical effect on the mortal world. What effects there were in Faerûn, arose through mortals becoming aware of the myth.
It's not like the Dawn Cataclysm happened on another physical plane. Gods are diffuse spiritual entities who permeate both the Material Plane and the Astral Plane and points in between.
You are imagining the DC as some sort of real war, some sort of real series of chronological events that physically happened in a physical volume of space, perhaps the Astral Plane. You are thinking that gods have physical bodies and that there were physical clashes between them. But I think that is a misconception.
I think that when gods are interacting with mortals, or other intelligent beings that require it, they may appear in a physical form of some kind (which may change, depending on and appropriate to the expectations of the mortal), but otherwise, when no one is looking, the god is not there. A god's presence is just an instantiation, an interface, a GUI that can be customized by the god for the benefit of the mortal to effect different user experiences.
Check out the Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities books. They mention all sorts of ways that each god can appear to a mortal, if they ever choose to. Gods don't have have a specific form, and when an aspect is worshiped by more than one pantheon, the aspects can appear vastly different from each other, even as a different gender (off the top of my head, I'm thinking that Akadi is worshiped as a male storm god under the name of Teylas by the Horde).
Among themselves, I cannot fully conceive of how the gods interact, but I would think it is analogous to how ecosystems interact. Maybe like plankton, which permeates the ocean, but consists of zillions of tiny creatures of different species. How any single species of plantkton fares in the mix depends on all sorts of interactions. Species wax and wane, some go extinct, some change and evolve, but there are always plankton everywhere.
In another sense gods may be like ant and termite colonies. Such colonies are seen as single entities made up of multitudes of individual creatures which work in concert, like cells in a body, to sustain the whole colony. Gods exist only through the belief of mortals. The mind and soul of each worshiper is like a single cell in the body of a god. Which is why gods lose power and die when people stop believing in them.
So what was the Dawn Cataclysm all about? It was a battle among the gods for the hearts and minds of their mortal followers. We see the repercussions of their machinations rippling through the social fabric of Faerûn over the course of several centuries. The important thing about the Dawn Cataclysm is how trends in belief across Faerûn changed, how churches realigned, and faith in some gods increased, decreased or ceased altogether as a result.
The supposed events of the Dawn Cataclysm — what purportedly took place in the war of the gods — never really happened at all. The story, the myth, is just a metaphor that mortals can understand to describe only a small portion of the unfathomable nature of what truly occurred.
If there were any such events at all, perhaps they happened in something like the Dreamtime, a consensual dream shared by the diffuse and disembodied consciousnesses of the gods — possibly networked together a little something like a neural net, or the nodes of the internet. But if so, like any dream, those events can happen out of chronological order, in flashes. Dreams possess a surreal and timeless quality that cannot always be comprehended by the rational mind. And to the extent that mortals know anything about it at all, it is because the gods have reported it to them. Probably in dribbles and drabs.
In fact, bits of it may have been revealed to clerics and followers in dreams. Or divined from signs and portents. Or stories told by angels or other servitor spirits. Then those bits were shared, and passed along, embellished, put together with other bits learned from elsewhere, until the whole myth cycle emerged, a general, consensual understanding brought about by repetition of those myths.
And, of course, gods are subject to the consensual belief of their worshipers. What the worshipers believe about a god becomes true. Just as an example, Tyr lost a hand and became blinded. Gods can change form and regrow hands and grow back eyes or even grow more eyes. Tyr could have a hundred hands and eyes if he wanted. But because his faithful believe he lost a hand and went blind, Tyr is thus fixed by those expectations, and cannot overcome them (at least when mortals are looking).
A god's aspect and even his personal history and timeline are as "editable" as Wikipedia. So, as the myths gelled and solidified, it became true for the gods as well, altering and adjusting the events of the Dawn Cataclysm accordingly, in a big feedback loop.
So that's what my take on mythological time is. Yes there was a schism in Tyche's church after the fall of Myth Drannor, but that was because that was just when the notion of Tyche's splitting became accepted as the general consensus, and her followers began to believe that she had split into two goddesses. Who is to say the actual splitting didn't occur in -255? Or 144? Or 661?
Or did Tyche split as a result of the schism? In order to explain the political division, maybe people started rumors that Tyche had split, which grew and became accepted as an official myth. Was it the belief in that myth that caused Tyche to actually split? Did the schism result from her splitting, or cause it? I'm not sure we can really know the answer to that.
For the (or an) official take on the Dawn Cataclysm, you may want to refer to p.64 of The Grand History of the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 03:39:18
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I see no reason at all why the sundering of Tyche and the splitting of her churches would not have happened very close together. With gods constantly scrambling for worshippers, it simply does not make sense that Tymora and Beshaba would not have immediately separated their faithful.
And since we know when that separation of the churches occurred, it is only logical to assume that the splitting of Tyche -- which happened during the Dawn Cataclysm -- happened at or around the same time.
And the Dawn Cataclysm couldn't have happened in -255, if it presaged the fall of Myth Drannor -- Myth Drannor wasn't around then. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 05:36:38
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Why would Myth Drannor have to have existed at the time?
Presage means:
1. a presentiment or foreboding.
2. to portend or foreshadow a future event; an omen, prognostic, or warning indication.
3. prophetic significance; augury.
4. foresight; prescience.
5. to forecast or predict.
They say Nostradamus presaged a lot of things that weren't around until centuries after he died. That's sort of the point of presaging.
Plus, how can you give such selective weight to the Tyche detail, and completely ignore the death of Murdane in -255 DR? She was part of the Dawn Cataclysm too. It's not a paradox you can simply handwave away. No, I'm afraid your dating of the DC does not fit all the facts.
I believe Eric Boyd's explanation is far more persuasive. At least for me. |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 28 Apr 2013 05:48:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 12:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Why would Myth Drannor have to have existed at the time?
Presage means:
1. a presentiment or foreboding.
2. to portend or foreshadow a future event; an omen, prognostic, or warning indication.
3. prophetic significance; augury.
4. foresight; prescience.
5. to forecast or predict.
They say Nostradamus presaged a lot of things that weren't around until centuries after he died. That's sort of the point of presaging.
Plus, how can you give such selective weight to the Tyche detail, and completely ignore the death of Murdane in -255 DR? She was part of the Dawn Cataclysm too. It's not a paradox you can simply handwave away. No, I'm afraid your dating of the DC does not fit all the facts.
I believe Eric Boyd's explanation is far more persuasive. At least for me.
I don't see how the Dawn Cataclysm could have presaged the fall of Myth Drannor if Myth Drannor didn't exist. If the city didn't come until after the DC, then there is really no way to connect the two events.
I give such weight to the Tyche detail because it was during the Dawn Cataclysm and because we can date it. It's easier to explain the Murdane discrepancy than it is to go with the earlier date and explain the Tyche and Myth Drannor discrepancies. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 14:09:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some of the earliest references to the Dawn Cataclysm say it presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, which was from 712-714. We know that Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm, though it's not apparent if it's a related event. And we know that there was a schism in Tyche's church, with it splitting into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba, during 8th century DR -- 700 to 799.
So the schism logically happened soon after the split, and the split happened during the Dawn Cataclysm. If this happened before Myth Drannor fell, but still in the 8th Century, then we have a timeframe of 700 to 712 or 714.
Ah, but Murdane was alive during the Dawn Cataclysm, she was one of Lathander's generals and his primary strategist. She supposedly died in -255 DR when Jhaamdath drowned in a tidal wave. So then the Dawn Cataclysm couldn't have possibly happened after -255 DR, right?
No, I think we simply cannot assign a specific date. The Dawn Cataclysm never touched or had any physical effect on the mortal world. What effects there were in Faerûn, arose through mortals becoming aware of the myth.
It's not like the Dawn Cataclysm happened on another physical plane. Gods are diffuse spiritual entities who permeate both the Material Plane and the Astral Plane and points in between.
You are imagining the DC as some sort of real war, some sort of real series of chronological events that physically happened in a physical volume of space, perhaps the Astral Plane. You are thinking that gods have physical bodies and that there were physical clashes between them. But I think that is a misconception.
I think that when gods are interacting with mortals, or other intelligent beings that require it, they may appear in a physical form of some kind (which may change, depending on and appropriate to the expectations of the mortal), but otherwise, when no one is looking, the god is not there. A god's presence is just an instantiation, an interface, a GUI that can be customized by the god for the benefit of the mortal to effect different user experiences.
Check out the Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities books. They mention all sorts of ways that each god can appear to a mortal, if they ever choose to. Gods don't have have a specific form, and when an aspect is worshiped by more than one pantheon, the aspects can appear vastly different from each other, even as a different gender (off the top of my head, I'm thinking that Akadi is worshiped as a male storm god under the name of Teylas by the Horde).
Among themselves, I cannot fully conceive of how the gods interact, but I would think it is analogous to how ecosystems interact. Maybe like plankton, which permeates the ocean, but consists of zillions of tiny creatures of different species. How any single species of plantkton fares in the mix depends on all sorts of interactions. Species wax and wane, some go extinct, some change and evolve, but there are always plankton everywhere.
In another sense gods may be like ant and termite colonies. Such colonies are seen as single entities made up of multitudes of individual creatures which work in concert, like cells in a body, to sustain the whole colony. Gods exist only through the belief of mortals. The mind and soul of each worshiper is like a single cell in the body of a god. Which is why gods lose power and die when people stop believing in them.
So what was the Dawn Cataclysm all about? It was a battle among the gods for the hearts and minds of their mortal followers. We see the repercussions of their machinations rippling through the social fabric of Faerûn over the course of several centuries. The important thing about the Dawn Cataclysm is how trends in belief across Faerûn changed, how churches realigned, and faith in some gods increased, decreased or ceased altogether as a result.
The supposed events of the Dawn Cataclysm — what purportedly took place in the war of the gods — never really happened at all. The story, the myth, is just a metaphor that mortals can understand to describe only a small portion of the unfathomable nature of what truly occurred.
If there were any such events at all, perhaps they happened in something like the Dreamtime, a consensual dream shared by the diffuse and disembodied consciousnesses of the gods — possibly networked together a little something like a neural net, or the nodes of the internet. But if so, like any dream, those events can happen out of chronological order, in flashes. Dreams possess a surreal and timeless quality that cannot always be comprehended by the rational mind. And to the extent that mortals know anything about it at all, it is because the gods have reported it to them. Probably in dribbles and drabs.
In fact, bits of it may have been revealed to clerics and followers in dreams. Or divined from signs and portents. Or stories told by angels or other servitor spirits. Then those bits were shared, and passed along, embellished, put together with other bits learned from elsewhere, until the whole myth cycle emerged, a general, consensual understanding brought about by repetition of those myths.
And, of course, gods are subject to the consensual belief of their worshipers. What the worshipers believe about a god becomes true. Just as an example, Tyr lost a hand and became blinded. Gods can change form and regrow hands and grow back eyes or even grow more eyes. Tyr could have a hundred hands and eyes if he wanted. But because his faithful believe he lost a hand and went blind, Tyr is thus fixed by those expectations, and cannot overcome them (at least when mortals are looking).
A god's aspect and even his personal history and timeline are as "editable" as Wikipedia. So, as the myths gelled and solidified, it became true for the gods as well, altering and adjusting the events of the Dawn Cataclysm accordingly, in a big feedback loop.
So that's what my take on mythological time is. Yes there was a schism in Tyche's church after the fall of Myth Drannor, but that was because that was just when the notion of Tyche's splitting became accepted as the general consensus, and her followers began to believe that she had split into two goddesses. Who is to say the actual splitting didn't occur in -255? Or 144? Or 661?
Or did Tyche split as a result of the schism? In order to explain the political division, maybe people started rumors that Tyche had split, which grew and became accepted as an official myth. Was it the belief in that myth that caused Tyche to actually split? Did the schism result from her splitting, or cause it? I'm not sure we can really know the answer to that.
For the (or an) official take on the Dawn Cataclysm, you may want to refer to p.64 of The Grand History of the Realms.
The fact that deities can die, the fact that when they do so, indicates that they have fenite qualities, while maluable to an extent, still fallow some of the laws of transposition, and literalization. Maluability, and collective conchusness, from spun off forms not withstanding. Put another way, it is clear that:
(1) No God is omniscient, omnipresent, nor omnipotent;
(2) it is clear that that every God fills an actual point of existence at any given point of time, as transformation of forms, and collective conchusness not withstanding, but the literall elements of the schematphorm that can be classified as said God, must fill a place, or a series of places, at given time;
(3) while the forms and individual schemas of any God are semi-maluable, certain core characteristics must remain, Tur is a God of justice, this core element of his character cannot change, or Tur is nolonger Tur.
(This is an Importo Triom)
thus, the anology of eco-systems does hold, but what you must understand, the loss of elements of the eco-system, impacts the whole of the eco-system. Let us take this argument one step further, If two gods fight, then they must first occupy a literal point in time and space, even multiple points and spaces in time while they do so. Now, both Gods might be crafty enough to extend only portions of themselves, leaving a portion of themselves outside of the region of conflict, so that when a portion of themselves is slain, the whole of the being is not slain(I bring this second argument of literalization into play, to further help solidify it’s significance). We know, from a whole host of sources, that a loss of an avator impacts the diety on the whole, and the loss of all such evators leads to the death of the diety in question. We also know from a host of sources, that followers can serve as an energy source for the divine, just as environmental factors can re-energize an eco-system. Yet, all the energy and environmental supports can help an eco-system that has lost too many core factors. What constitutes a core system and what does not, is not clearly defined, but is clear that they exist. This is analogus to crucial organ failure, or terminal cell failure. The same is true for the internet analogy as well, as the software systems that comprise the internet are only possible due to hubs and rotares, and all the various individual elements for data storage, etc. Each element of hardwar must exist in particular place, at a particular point in time, thus while multiple individuals have access to the data across distances, in overlapping points in time, certain essential mechanisms, a central point, or series of points wherein the data resides is peramont; as data doesn’t exist in a vacuum, but is bound to the hardware that stores it and provides individuals access to it. Thus, we once again arrive at the same point of literalization, and taking it to the analogy of the Gods of D & D, there must be some core point, which the various subforms are derived from, and holds the core of the collective conchusness that drives the various subforms, or avatars. Now, that we have arrived at this literalization from more than one way of thinking, let us now discuss the DC.
You have stated that you don’t believe that the DC is an actual event in time, but given that we have arrived at literalization from multiple angles with respect to the Gods, and that the DC is an event centered around them, and that this event has had far reaching consequences upon the Gods, it follows therefore, that the DC is an event that occurred over a particular point of time, in a particular locale, or series of locales, it must be therefore a literal event. In short, given that the Gods do not act in an environmental vacuum, the DC cannot have occurred in one either. The DC therefore, must have been an actual event. Holding that, we can deduce the most likely reasons for the difficulty on settling on an actual date for the event, errors in authors not withstanding. It is clear that the Gods are capable of acting across plains of existence, plains entirely removed from the baseline plain, or the material plain. Given that, the issue of distence and information degradation comes into play. I am sure that you are aware of all that, so I wont bore you with that here, only to say, that there is evidence where the Gods aren’t always able to communicate with their followers directly, and they can’t communicate with all their followers all at once.
Now, holding all that, we can turn ourselves to the one single flaw in your argument, it’s a common one, but important. I point it out, because it so beautifully frames the nature of the conceptualization, and is an easy one to fall into. In fact, it is one that I have seen repaditly on this site, it is a reductio ab epistulis. In short, you have created a chain of arguments, where each link builds upon the other, but a crucial foundation link is not attached. It is like building the wall of the house, where the wall isn’t properly situated within it’s foundation. This actually occurs several times throughout your discussion, but I shall selct just one.
“everywhere.
In another sense gods may be like ant and termite colonies. Such colonies are seen as single entities made up of multitudes of individual creatures which work in concert, like cells in a body, to sustain the whole colony. Gods exist only through the belief of mortals. The mind and soul of each worshiper is like a single cell in the body of a god. “
The leap here might be entirely unintentional, but your second primace, doesn’t follow from the link of primace chains that preceded it, which were well constructed for the most part. The issue is, that this weakens the rest of the argument’s validity from here on out, and the logical consistenty drops of considerably from this point onward. Merely something to consider, for the future, the more rational mind, is a more persceptive mind. Just thought you should know, it’s nothing personal.
All that said, I want to deal with an issue with an issue of possible unsoundness in your argument with regards to the Gods themselves. I state possible, because it is beast on the information I have from my books (i.e. faiths and avatars, and the novels, etc). It has been stated that various Gods are responsible for the creation of their followers, the Orc Gods for the Orcs, the elves, for the elves, etc. From this it is clear that there was once a time when these Gods existed without followers. Given this, the Gods had to exist before their followers existed, and that their power and abilities did not rest in anyway in the power of their followers. We further now, that before the time of troubles and the changes that Ao created, that a shift from reliance on the power of worshipers for personal strength was a new phenomena, which means therefore that this was not always the case. How exactly followers came into play for Godly power is open for debate, but given the evidence, it is relatively clear that direct Godly might was not dependent entirely on the development of followers. After the change of this event, then one can argue that the conceptualization of followers influence the nature of the Gods. However, it is equally likely that Gods alter themselves in order to maximize worship and thus, devine power.
At any rate, I hope that you have found what is above helpful in someway, it is meant as such and nothing more.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 14:21:50
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To 'immortal beings', a single millenium is like a year to us. The fact that so may folks try to pin-point FR events to a single year boggles my mind. Even in mortal terms, very few 'major events' can be pinned down to a single year. You can usually pin-down the precise culmination of the event, and you can occasionally zero-in on a start-date (depending on how 'fuzzy' the subject is, like 'the fall of Rome'), but on a divine scale, I truly doubt ANYTHING deities do, plan, or set in motion happens within a single year.
Thus, events set in motion (by Lathander?) around -255 could very well have come to a head around a thousand years later. Especially if they happened outside of time.
People also do this with the 'Godwar', and try to prove how it has to be separate from other major events (like the Sundering). Why couldn't a 'Godwar' last 10,000 years or more? From the moment the first sun was created, to the time when Shar got angry enough to do something about it, could have been centuries, if not several millenia, later. There obviously was enough time for the Creator races to build great civilizations (if not actually evolve on their own).
In fact, if anything, I think it should have happened after a time, and not immediately, because Shar would have been unaware of ALL the repercussions that sun (and the mortal races it succoured) would eventually bring. In fact, who's to say she and Selune did not create the sun together, and she grew resentful when she began to be ignored? There is plenty of ways to spin things - we don't have to keep to the letter of the 'legend'.
I assume the stories we are told about ANYTHING - even when not written in that 'uncertain 3rd person' - are stories as told by persons (including churches) within the setting, and then related to us by Elmisnter through Ed. Thus, the version we hear is the one that Elminster is familiar with - the one fostered by the churches of Mystra and Selune.
That doesn't necessarily make them "The Truth", it simply makes them one version of that truth.
Anyway, my real point is that if we read something, and we see it says something in one sentence, and then it says something in the very next sentence, we should not assume that the two events happened instantly, one after the other. I could write, "a great empire called Rome arose, and then it fell", and that would certainly be the truth, but it would also be misleading - we skip over a thousand years of history or so. The further back in time we go (both RW and FR), the further we tend to 'stretch' things, by skipping over the 'boring parts', which leads to some very bad assumptions (like "all of these dinosaurs lived then", and "all of these replaced them 100,000 years later". Things happen in between all of that, and most of those species never existed at the same time - this is the fallacy created when you start placing everything into 'eras'.
Did the 'Godwar' happen before the world was Sundered? Most certainly... but the War of Light & Darkness may have been the culmination of that... or its start. It may have been just a single 'battle' within a 100,000 year war! We just don't know. The bloodwar may have 'broken out' before, after, or during. I look at the Godwar like our own 'World Wars', and there were probably dozens - if not hundreds - of 'theaters', and probably thousands upon thousands of various-sized confrontations. Eventually, everyone got pulled into it, and the sides may have looked very different toward the end then they did at the beginning.
It was a cosmic mess... and who's to say it ever dd come to an end? We might just be inside one of the 'lulls' in the fighting. Maybe 5e will be the 'final victory'... or not. It could just be one more battle that has finally concluded. In fact, the 'great game' never truly ends... just the players and pawns change. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Apr 2013 14:24:00 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 16:08:51
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I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "
This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.
Recall also that George Krashos did personally re-write that particular section about the Tymora and Beshaba Schism in the FRCS. As I recall, before his re-write, that section on the Schism in the FRCS was ALL about the DC. George tells us that the writers didn't want to ruin the endless debates and threads that were to come so they changed it a little... writing something different.
From that perspective... the preferred date for the DC could then very well fall earlier than the 8th century DR... perhaps even in the early 100s DR or so, with the first real ramifications filtering through a few centuries or so later. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 04:52:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "
This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.
Recall also that George Krashos did personally re-write that particular section about the Tymora and Beshaba Schism in the FRCS. As I recall, before his re-write, that section on the Schism in the FRCS was ALL about the DC. George tells us that the writers didn't want to ruin the endless debates and threads that were to come so they changed it a little... writing something different.
From that perspective... the preferred date for the DC could then very well fall earlier than the 8th century DR... perhaps even in the early 100s DR or so, with the first real ramifications filtering through a few centuries or so later.
That puts us back into having rival deities sharing their worshippers for a prolonged period of time, which does not seem likely at all. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 05:17:47
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They're not sharing their worshippers, they are fighting for them. And if you have to sneakily pretend to be the opposition to get that parcel of worship, you go right ahead and do it.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 11:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
They're not sharing their worshippers, they are fighting for them. And if you have to sneakily pretend to be the opposition to get that parcel of worship, you go right ahead and do it.
-- George Krashos
They weren't pretending to be the opposition if they were sharing a church. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 11:58:22
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Here's what it comes down to, for me: the actual date of the Dawn Cataclysm doesn't matter so much as the existence of a date...
Even the Murdane bit can be reconciled, if you decide the DC lasted for more than a thousand years -- she was around for it to kick off, but then died with Jhaamdath. Or it started a bit later, and she was participating as a way to try to stick around.... As I see it, the DC could have started before the fall of Jhaamdath, raged for a few centuries, then petered off, with occasional flare-ups every few decades, until the death of Tyche in the early 700s jolted the other deities and they came together to end it.
The reason I want a date on this event is simple. Look at the Grand History of the Realms. Thousands, if not tens of thousands, of events from Realmslore -- all with dates. Heck, one event has two dates. The Sundering reached back and forth in time, but we still know when the spell that caused it was cast. For the vast majority of the events, we know at the very least the year it happened, and for a lot of them, we know the date and month, as well.
And yet, with all of that, and despite having dates that can be tied down, we are told that in all of Realmslore, there is one and only one event that somehow happened without time passing. One and only one event that somehow can't be given a date, though we can date the existence and death of some of its participants.
How can only one thing have an entirely different explanation?
The actual date doesn't matter. I just want a date or a date range. When events can be tied to specific points in time, I don't see how they could have happened outside of time, and I don't see how only one thing in all of the known history of the Realms could have this odd explanation that doesn't match anything else or the known facts. |
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Before the Days of Thunder—the Prehistory of Toril
