| Author |
 Topic  |
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 04:10:05
|
| I prefer Kelemvor as a god of death. He's fairer, and I think it's better to have a neutral deity of death. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 13:06:53
|
I use both. I also use Pharasma, from Golarion/PF (Kelemvor is her consort).
Myrkul = The actual act of dying itself
Kelemvor = judge of the Dead
Pharasma = Caretaker of the afterlife
Jergal = A manifestation of Death itself, which is a primal (universal) power
And, of course, there is still Bhaal, god of murder and assassins (although Khali-Mar has been horning in on his turf as well as Hoar's).
I'd like to use The Raven Queen, but I am not sure how to work her in. I may just use that as an alias for Pharasma. I could also use her to replace Auril, but its far from a perfect fit. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2013 13:10:10 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 13:37:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I prefer Kelemvor as a god of death. He's fairer, and I think it's better to have a neutral deity of death.
I very much agree. Myrkul struck me as the "ooh, death is scary!" type, and that's just boring to me. Plus, I love the idea of him causing trouble as an artifact. So much more potential for using him there than as a deific cliché. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 14:11:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One of the the problems with it in the old way was your enemy could (just as a for instance) send you to certain planes and pretty much without a doubt know you'd be insta-dead and your body either lost or permanently destroyed (for instance, sending someone to the elemental plane of fire, earth, or the negative or positive energy planes).
Another problem was simply moving in some of these planes. Being dropped in the elemental plane of earth put you somewhere with nowhere to walk and nothing to breathe....
Now, with this "mixture" you can still have areas dominated by another element (for instance, near the city of brass, maybe its all lava and trees made of fire and superheated air and steam), OR you can have just some odd juxtaposition that changes on its own. In fact, I'd tie the inner planes and limbo.... and on the other side of limbo, the far realms.
That's why planar travel was reserved for high-level folk. Just because a place is dangerous for newbs isn't a good reason for a retcon.
Besides, you don't need planar travel for someone to be stuck in a hostile environ. It'd be far easier for your theoretical baddie to simply drop his enemies into the caldera of the nearest active volcano, or pop them to the bottom of the sea.
I fail to see how one plane with all the elements present is all that different from the Prime, which is one plane with all the elements present.
My problem with the four separate planes partly comes down to this; even if you can survive there(using high level magics), why on earth would you ever want to go there? Not in character, that is; why would the player ever want to go there? They're boring.
As for the difference between the Elemental Chaos and the Prime Material, well, partly it comes down to extremes. While things can get fairly intense in the material, there's generally an order and structure to things. On the other hand, the EC is a constant storm of elemental energy. Continent or world sized glaciers floating over seas of fire, endless typhoons and tornados, oceans of mud and crystal, all clashing and mixing constantly.
If the elements are the ingredients that make the material, the prime is the finished product and the elemental chaos is the mixing pot where it's all being stirred up.
Add Limbo and the Abyss into the mix, and you've got a dangerous combination. Go to the plane of fire, you know you're going to be fighting a lot of fire elementals, plane of earth, a lot of earth elementals. Go to the Elemental chaos? You have no idea what you'll come across. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 14:15:26
|
| And on the Myrkul issue, while I wouldn't want him to replace Kelemvor, I wouldn't mind if we actually see some progress on the whole, Crown of Horns plot. Him coming back in some way, shape, or form would be interesting, I think. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 14:18:17
|
Some clichés are clichés because they fit so well. Just because something is one doesnt automaticaly make it bad.
I am currently playing Pirate101 (what can I say? Its addicting!), and at one point you actually meet death, who appears in his usual skeleton-in-black-robe w/sickle incarnation, and he even says he is bored with the look, but "it's rather expected, I suppose". The only difference is he has a pair of spectacles, which softens the look a bit (I wish I could find a pic*).
You have to admit, its still loads better then Brad Pitt as death (Meet Joe Black).
My favorite version is the one from Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure - what an overall great movie. He's no Myrkul, thats for sure. 
*EDIT:
I found a video, but he looks a lot less 'cartoony' in the actual game. This is a 'puppet show' cut-scene, something the game has several of to explain past events. Weird, I know... but it works for that game. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2013 14:22:28 |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 15:14:08
|
Actually I believe the pre 4e planes had pockets of other materials like a pocket of air or water in the plane of earth.
Actually if I remember correctly the elemental chaos was actually discovered in prespell plague 3x.
So my theory is that Abier got the Elemental Chaos where the Primordials dwelled, and the Elemental Lords and thier allies that wished to conduct thier business in Toril ripped out vast chunks of the elemental Chaos to form planes in the Astral Plane like the Planes of Fire, Earth, Water, Air. The Planes of Negative Energy and Positive Energy must a have had another origin, or perhaps they were created by Shar and Selune for some perpose |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 16:51:59
|
| On the Myrkul, Kelemvor, Jergal, Velsharoon, Osiris, Orcus, Kiaransalee, Yurtrus, etc.... list.... I'd rather they all come back, and each be a lord of death for their "kind" and in their own way. Thus, Osiris as a judge for Mulhorandites, Yurtrus for orcs, Kelemvor as a judge for those who are atheists in Faerun, etc... Then those deities that want to be a god of death and NOT be burdened with being a judge personae, they serve the "death" ethos in other ways. Maybe Myrkul starts serving death by being its hunter for those that try to cheat death. Maybe he becomes the overseer of the punishments meted out. Hell, I wouldn't even be against a system where both Kelemvor and Myrkul had some sort of shared court (Kelemvor deems whether someone's case even merits a trial... then Myrkul tries those deemed problems of certain degrees of heinousness). Maybe he serves as a broker to the powers of Hell for souls. Obviously, Velsharoon, Kiaransalee, Orcus, Yurtrus, etc... serve death in a more necromantic form. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 17:53:19
|
While part of me loves a very large selection of gods, another part of prefers to limit the pantheon to a more 2e-style ruling (one deity per portfolio per world). Now, that doesn't mean there can't be many different 'aspects' associated with a portfolio such as death, so there is some leeway.
I think this is another of my inner gamer vs fiction reader schisms. In fiction, it doesn't matter how many gods there are, or how their portfolios overlap, because there are no rules other then whatever the author wants to apply. In a game, we need structure, and havng more then one god for the same thing causes some problems.
Of course, there is always the 'regional' thing, but I wasn't a big fan of how that was done in FR (I recall a map showing what pantheons held sway where, and I thought, "does that mean those deities have NO power outside those areas?") It gets a bit confusing.
We also have the Oriental Yen-Wang-Yeh as judge of the dead; he appears in FRA2 Black Courser. Those Hordelands modules use a strange mix of Eastern and Western deities (Cyric is also mentioned in one, amongst others).
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2013 17:54:33 |
|
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 18:21:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
My problem with the four separate planes partly comes down to this; even if you can survive there(using high level magics), why on earth would you ever want to go there? Not in character, that is; why would the player ever want to go there? They're boring.
Traveling through Elemental Earth through titanic geode-like caverns illuminated by phosphorescent minerals. Civilizations of dao that carve their history in golden inlayed runes on stalactites. Oceans of crystalline dust and plains of diamonds.
Sailing across a sea of magma in Elemental Fire, running from Efreet slavers out of the City of Brass. Finding hints to the story of the Codex of Infinite Plains from a janni merchant lord in the markets of that grand city. Rain of molten gold, skies of sublimated metal forming glittering clouds.
A pressureless infinite ocean, dotted with the sunken ruins of a thousand lost continents swallowed up by the depths of their home worlds and finally seized and dragged into Elemental Water by nations of greedy marids or ever-hungry brine dragons. Nations of pirates dwelling in glass-encapsulated cities, warring with nations of sahuagins.
Infinite skies of Elemental Air dotted with drifting islands stolen from the Prime Material, or sold by dao to their genie cousins as they war against blue and silver dragons, titans in their cloud castles, and mortal wizards seeking tranquility among the infinite blue expanse.
Clearly the classic D&D elemental planes were boring as all heck...
The 4e elemental chaos IMO did little else besides mash together the most interesting locations that were already present in the 1e/2e/3e elemental planes and make the whole place designed around PC survivability and "adventure" rather than being designed for a metaphysical purpose. It was a very gamist design ethos. The universe doesn't need to revolve around PCs, and IMO it only cheapens the sense of wonder when it's crafted to do so. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 18:31:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the 'retcon' thing, I'm surprised you didn't site the most notable examples, like Eladrin and sucubi. Those are why I put in the part about "even the past gets changed". What was once true may no longer be true, when major changes get made to the cosmos.
As for why you can't get from Plane A to Plane B anymore, that's simple - the rules have changed (both in the literal, D&D sense, and also in the 'rules of the universe' sense). Not only can't certain things be done anymore, but when the rules change people's perceptions also change, such that they don't even remember what it used to be like (I site the specific example of the Domains of Dread - Ravenloft).
As for the Elemental planes, I thought that was explained: The Maelstrom is the natural state of the universe, and the Elemental planes was an artificial ordering fostered upon it... something done around the time of the Godwar. What we have here is the universe simply 'snapping back' to its original state (at least, a part of it... the whole thing was probably the Maelstrom, like Nifleheim - of Nordic myth - and the Ginnungagap). The cosmology emerged from that 'primordial soup' (probably by the will of the 'Elder gods', or whatever you want to call the proto-Primordials).
At least, I remember that from discussions. At this point, I am not sure how much was conjecture, and how much was actually derived from 4e sources. 
By the same token, we can just as easily say it comes down to human perception again, and how much we can handle. Suppose the Maelstrom is (theoretically) limitless, and the folks of Toril (or wherever) are connected to parts of it via pre-built conduits... which just happen to lead to VAST fields of specific material within the maelstrom. What may appear as just minor 'motes' floating within the maelstrom in the great scheme of things could be far larger then a solar system... and therefor incomprehensible as a 'small bit' of something else to humans journeying there. If a mortal did happen to find themselves near the edge of the elemental mote, they could just think they are at the boundary of the (elemental) plane itself, and looking into a quasi or psuedo elemental plane on the other side.
Thus, ever portal/Gate that ever lead into the elemental planes really just lead to a small bit of it, but humans would have no way of perceiving anything beyond it.
EVERYTHING can be rectified (even the Eladrin) - the real problem with 4th edition is that they didn't even bother to try. As players of a game, we didn't need logic, but as fans of the setting, we live for that crap. We crave answers, and we weren't getting any. We've had several threads dedicated to solving just these sorts of problems.
Exactly, everything can be rectified. The question is what makes the game more useful. Having a elemental soup plane as opposed to the 4 doesn't prevent you having sections devoted to certain elements. I would also specify that this elemental plane be one of the few that is actually an infinite plane, but also that its also infinitely changing. Having an area with blobs of water floating beside blobs of ice, trees made of fire, squirrels made of rock living in the tree, and no ground to walk on and an ever changing gravitational pull that brings you into areas with concentrations of hydrogen and no oxygen can prove interesting..... and then you go a mile up the road and its solid earth with rivers of fire and water based flowers that "pop" when you pick them.... that leads up to a few miles of solid rock, metal, and crystals that you need specialized spell just to move a few feet.... well, its definitely unique and nothing like the prime. Its deadly, but its not insta-deadly. You definitely tread warily wherever you go.
On the "we didn't know that's how it was" aspect, I'm in favor of the idea that the Lady of Pain had us all tricked in previous editions and that certain "primes" didn't even have a connection to Sigil or its planar setup. For instance, Eberron with its odd adjacency to its planes. Another example, Abeir. Athas with its own inner planes and the difficulty leaving it could be another candidate (though possibly contradicted by some lore in that instance). I went into some of this in another thread the other day, so I'll stop here with just one addition... what if there's more than one Sigil and each has its own "great wheel" layout and certain crystal spheres leading to it?
What I am about to say is predicated on something I was told about the city of doors, (AKA Sigil), if this an error, then please by all means correct me. Sigil is a city, which lies in a forest, which sits upon a grand piller within the multiverse. Some of the portals that leave the city are one way only, such as the supposed door to the plain of madness. You can go to the plain of madness, but nothing from the plan of madness can come out. I remember hearing this in one of my books describing the plain, but can’t provide a source.
Now this is my Non-canonical argumentation based on what is above. When creating the multiverse, the overgods, those few beings that stand above Ao, fixed each universe through the use of multi-dimensional artifacts, clamps where the magnetive determinants of gravity, and it’sco-occurents time and space, reside in infinite finiteness across the dimensional chasms. The first such were interlocked, allowing messengers of the greater Gods to move freely across the multiverse. Eventually, newer such artifacts were developed, based on cross-sectional transdimensional centripicle magnetic flow, thus isolating certain universes from others. This later are less famous than the latter, for their no great crossings built upon them. Union is one such crossing point, but hardly the most famous; no, the City of Doors holds that title. The Lady of Pain discovering one such created here grand illusion built around the massive translucation, which is the city itself, or the means to cross through the various valleys that form the dimensional chasm. She is not the first being to do so, although she claims so; arguing that Union was constructed afterwards. Thus said, we can no turn ourselves to the Breakers.
There are ancient powers within the abyss, some powers that are poorly recorded, and not well known by their fellow denizens. A group of said powers, while combining their power constructed grand psychic beings across the span of the multiverse, known only as the Breakers. Some speculators believe that that they were demon possessed Mindflayers, but none know for sure. What is certain, at least to a few Gods, is that the Breakers launched their first attack against Sigil, coordinating their attack perfectly with the death of Mystra. This attack partially succeeded, but this partial success was in a manner more terrible than if they had failed utterly. The damage to the beam was felt across the entire chain of interconnected beams, which were originally thought unassailable by their makers. Many dimensions semaltaniously, whole plains were made wholly unrecognizable, but that wasn’t the worst of it. This transformation rippled backwards across the very fabric of time, altering the spheres in unforeseeable ways. Thus, what was, is no longer, not even the nine hells or the Abyss were left unscaved.
It’s not perfect, but here’s my explanation in a nut shell.
|
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 19:03:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the 'retcon' thing, I'm surprised you didn't site the most notable examples, like Eladrin and sucubi. Those are why I put in the part about "even the past gets changed". What was once true may no longer be true, when major changes get made to the cosmos.
[...]
EVERYTHING can be rectified (even the Eladrin) - the real problem with 4th edition is that they didn't even bother to try.
Well, in FR the succubi thing was not retconed but explained. They rebelled and joined the devils. While the explanation may suck, it's not a retcon of their past |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 19:42:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Doge
I hope they bring back Myrul. The realms need a REAL god of death.
That's why I don't want him back. Far too many settings lack a REAL god of death.
All this dark evil necromanacer deities are a disgrace to what it means to be a REAL god of death.
A god of death should abhor all undead as they flip him the bird by their very existance. A REAL god of death's undead slayer squads should be far more feared by undead then the teams send out by the deities of light |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 23:26:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
While part of me loves a very large selection of gods, another part of prefers to limit the pantheon to a more 2e-style ruling (one deity per portfolio per world). Now, that doesn't mean there can't be many different 'aspects' associated with a portfolio such as death, so there is some leeway.
I think this is another of my inner gamer vs fiction reader schisms. In fiction, it doesn't matter how many gods there are, or how their portfolios overlap, because there are no rules other then whatever the author wants to apply. In a game, we need structure, and havng more then one god for the same thing causes some problems.
Of course, there is always the 'regional' thing, but I wasn't a big fan of how that was done in FR (I recall a map showing what pantheons held sway where, and I thought, "does that mean those deities have NO power outside those areas?") It gets a bit confusing.
We also have the Oriental Yen-Wang-Yeh as judge of the dead; he appears in FRA2 Black Courser. Those Hordelands modules use a strange mix of Eastern and Western deities (Cyric is also mentioned in one, amongst others).
Yeah, but the problem we see with condensing the pantheon becomes that we find out that Gruumsh is actually Talos (which is about the stupidest thing I've heard). Or they take some deity that has two focuses and single in on one aspect of it and name them an alias of X deity, but yet in their other role they infringe upon the power of another deity in the pantheon.
For most things, if you say "X is a deity of war", it makes little difference if there are 15 deities of war. In this scenario, the god of war doesn't decide all battles... but he can provide his favor and lean the outcome in a direction. Same thing goes for a deity of fire, a deity of healing, a deity of illusion magic, a deity of shadows, a deity of subterfuge and lies, a deity of beauty, a deity of commerce, a deity of nature, a deity of oceans, a deity of justice, a deity of honor, a deity of writing, a deity of music.
Its only when you get down to being deity of specific "things"... like the moon, the sun, the sky, the planet etc... that you start having issues. Its then that you start having to have things like "the earthmother and Chauntea are aspects of the same being"
So, why doesn't everyone claim every portfolio there is? Because they want their worshippers to fervently worship them, and if your main focus is on beauty and love.... then when a worshipper wants to focus on beauty and love, they'll think of you rather than the "vanilla" deity who chose to try to represent beauty, love, poetry, song, valor, honor, nobility and 10 other things. If you can build up enough of an image amongst your worshippers to truly represent more things.... great... but a god's gotta eat. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 23:42:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
My problem with the four separate planes partly comes down to this; even if you can survive there(using high level magics), why on earth would you ever want to go there? Not in character, that is; why would the player ever want to go there? They're boring.
Traveling through Elemental Earth through titanic geode-like caverns illuminated by phosphorescent minerals. Civilizations of dao that carve their history in golden inlayed runes on stalactites. Oceans of crystalline dust and plains of diamonds.
Sailing across a sea of magma in Elemental Fire, running from Efreet slavers out of the City of Brass. Finding hints to the story of the Codex of Infinite Plains from a janni merchant lord in the markets of that grand city. Rain of molten gold, skies of sublimated metal forming glittering clouds.
A pressureless infinite ocean, dotted with the sunken ruins of a thousand lost continents swallowed up by the depths of their home worlds and finally seized and dragged into Elemental Water by nations of greedy marids or ever-hungry brine dragons. Nations of pirates dwelling in glass-encapsulated cities, warring with nations of sahuagins.
Infinite skies of Elemental Air dotted with drifting islands stolen from the Prime Material, or sold by dao to their genie cousins as they war against blue and silver dragons, titans in their cloud castles, and mortal wizards seeking tranquility among the infinite blue expanse.
Clearly the classic D&D elemental planes were boring as all heck...
The 4e elemental chaos IMO did little else besides mash together the most interesting locations that were already present in the 1e/2e/3e elemental planes and make the whole place designed around PC survivability and "adventure" rather than being designed for a metaphysical purpose. It was a very gamist design ethos. The universe doesn't need to revolve around PCs, and IMO it only cheapens the sense of wonder when it's crafted to do so.
Air and water were (and still can be) easy to traverse. Fire even to a degree was traversible, because there would be air to breathe. However, the descriptions I saw of Earth didn't include a surface such that you could have those diamond covered plains. The plane of earth was solid with small pockets of air in the descriptions I saw. Now, some people may have played it the way you describe (and that's the type of "earthen" area I'd put in my elemental chaos), but the classic description is that you appear in the plane, hopefully with air in your lungs, and that it immediately tries to crush you as you "displace" earth and continues to inflict crushing damage on you every few minutes. You have to use tunneling magics to move around (or magic to walk through rock), but as you move, the rock backfills behind you. Oh, and there's no air to breathe, so you need to effectively stop your need to breathe. Oh yeah, and you can't see ahead of you, because its all rock. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 23:57:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
While part of me loves a very large selection of gods, another part of prefers to limit the pantheon to a more 2e-style ruling (one deity per portfolio per world). Now, that doesn't mean there can't be many different 'aspects' associated with a portfolio such as death, so there is some leeway.
I think this is another of my inner gamer vs fiction reader schisms. In fiction, it doesn't matter how many gods there are, or how their portfolios overlap, because there are no rules other then whatever the author wants to apply. In a game, we need structure, and havng more then one god for the same thing causes some problems.
Of course, there is always the 'regional' thing, but I wasn't a big fan of how that was done in FR (I recall a map showing what pantheons held sway where, and I thought, "does that mean those deities have NO power outside those areas?") It gets a bit confusing.
We also have the Oriental Yen-Wang-Yeh as judge of the dead; he appears in FRA2 Black Courser. Those Hordelands modules use a strange mix of Eastern and Western deities (Cyric is also mentioned in one, amongst others).
Yeah, but the problem we see with condensing the pantheon becomes that we find out that Gruumsh is actually Talos (which is about the stupidest thing I've heard). Or they take some deity that has two focuses and single in on one aspect of it and name them an alias of X deity, but yet in their other role they infringe upon the power of another deity in the pantheon.
For most things, if you say "X is a deity of war", it makes little difference if there are 15 deities of war. In this scenario, the god of war doesn't decide all battles... but he can provide his favor and lean the outcome in a direction. Same thing goes for a deity of fire, a deity of healing, a deity of illusion magic, a deity of shadows, a deity of subterfuge and lies, a deity of beauty, a deity of commerce, a deity of nature, a deity of oceans, a deity of justice, a deity of honor, a deity of writing, a deity of music.
Its only when you get down to being deity of specific "things"... like the moon, the sun, the sky, the planet etc... that you start having issues. Its then that you start having to have things like "the earthmother and Chauntea are aspects of the same being"
So, why doesn't everyone claim every portfolio there is? Because they want their worshippers to fervently worship them, and if your main focus is on beauty and love.... then when a worshipper wants to focus on beauty and love, they'll think of you rather than the "vanilla" deity who chose to try to represent beauty, love, poetry, song, valor, honor, nobility and 10 other things. If you can build up enough of an image amongst your worshippers to truly represent more things.... great... but a god's gotta eat.
"more things.... great... but a god's gotta eat.
"
Liked this, the first good laugh I'd had all day. Thank you. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 00:03:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
My problem with the four separate planes partly comes down to this; even if you can survive there(using high level magics), why on earth would you ever want to go there? Not in character, that is; why would the player ever want to go there? They're boring.
Traveling through Elemental Earth through titanic geode-like caverns illuminated by phosphorescent minerals. Civilizations of dao that carve their history in golden inlayed runes on stalactites. Oceans of crystalline dust and plains of diamonds.
Sailing across a sea of magma in Elemental Fire, running from Efreet slavers out of the City of Brass. Finding hints to the story of the Codex of Infinite Plains from a janni merchant lord in the markets of that grand city. Rain of molten gold, skies of sublimated metal forming glittering clouds.
A pressureless infinite ocean, dotted with the sunken ruins of a thousand lost continents swallowed up by the depths of their home worlds and finally seized and dragged into Elemental Water by nations of greedy marids or ever-hungry brine dragons. Nations of pirates dwelling in glass-encapsulated cities, warring with nations of sahuagins.
Infinite skies of Elemental Air dotted with drifting islands stolen from the Prime Material, or sold by dao to their genie cousins as they war against blue and silver dragons, titans in their cloud castles, and mortal wizards seeking tranquility among the infinite blue expanse.
Clearly the classic D&D elemental planes were boring as all heck...
The 4e elemental chaos IMO did little else besides mash together the most interesting locations that were already present in the 1e/2e/3e elemental planes and make the whole place designed around PC survivability and "adventure" rather than being designed for a metaphysical purpose. It was a very gamist design ethos. The universe doesn't need to revolve around PCs, and IMO it only cheapens the sense of wonder when it's crafted to do so.
Air and water were (and still can be) easy to traverse. Fire even to a degree was traversible, because there would be air to breathe. However, the descriptions I saw of Earth didn't include a surface such that you could have those diamond covered plains. The plane of earth was solid with small pockets of air in the descriptions I saw. Now, some people may have played it the way you describe (and that's the type of "earthen" area I'd put in my elemental chaos), but the classic description is that you appear in the plane, hopefully with air in your lungs, and that it immediately tries to crush you as you "displace" earth and continues to inflict crushing damage on you every few minutes. You have to use tunneling magics to move around (or magic to walk through rock), but as you move, the rock backfills behind you. Oh, and there's no air to breathe, so you need to effectively stop your need to breathe. Oh yeah, and you can't see ahead of you, because its all rock.
This isn't based on any older material (because I haven't read anything to base it on), but I always pictured the namesake of each of the Elemental Planes as what the ground level of that plane is like. Like the Plane of Fire is more or less an endless sea of fire, but there's still a sky and patches of (likely volcano riddled) ground here and there. Think the surface of the Sun, not the interior. The Plane of Earth is endless rocks, dirt, gems, mountains, etc, under a sky. And so on.
Having said that, I have no real problem with the Elemental Chaos either. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 03:50:47
|
Actually in older material the elemental planes didn't have a sky, except air and any related para and quasi elemental planes in which case it was all sky.
The plane of earth was like being right in the ground, solid earth, with the ocassional pockets of something else.
Air was more servivable its was just air, so at least you could breath, but it was mostly empty, outside chunks of other stuff floating around. And so on.
|
|
|
|
kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 05:44:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Air and water were (and still can be) easy to traverse. Fire even to a degree was traversible, because there would be air to breathe. However, the descriptions I saw of Earth didn't include a surface such that you could have those diamond covered plains. The plane of earth was solid with small pockets of air in the descriptions I saw. Now, some people may have played it the way you describe (and that's the type of "earthen" area I'd put in my elemental chaos), but the classic description is that you appear in the plane, hopefully with air in your lungs, and that it immediately tries to crush you as you "displace" earth and continues to inflict crushing damage on you every few minutes. You have to use tunneling magics to move around (or magic to walk through rock), but as you move, the rock backfills behind you. Oh, and there's no air to breathe, so you need to effectively stop your need to breathe. Oh yeah, and you can't see ahead of you, because its all rock.
From what I have read on the inner planes coming from the manual of the planes and planescape setting, while the plane of earth is harder to get around in, it does have caverns and tunnels here and there. there is nothing in any of that lore that I have found that says the earth tries to crush a person on a constant basis or fills up behind them. I see no reason that one could not come across a 3 mile diameter cavern that could be like a plains covered in diamond dust. Even in the planescape box set it stated that the dao city is a number of very large connected caverns. I personally find the descriptions shemmy gave inspiring and now I want to run some games based in the inner planes |
|
|
|
Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 06:33:23
|
| Hmm. Some good points there. Maybe each should have an aspect. Myrkul as the god of Death, Myrkul as the anti-life, any and all deaths, natural or unnatural, Kelemvor as the god of the dead, Kelemvor cares about the souls more, since i agree that he's a good judge and shepherd of souls, Velsharoon or Kiaransalee as a god/goddess of undead, death cheaters, since as others pointed out death and undeath are two very different and seemingly opposed things, Cyric/Bhaal as the god or muder, more of comitted crimes, Jergal proper burial, cares more of the deceased body and their memory. Dying becomes a bit complicated. |
|
|
|
Bonustopher
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 06:43:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
My problem with the four separate planes partly comes down to this; even if you can survive there(using high level magics), why on earth would you ever want to go there? Not in character, that is; why would the player ever want to go there? They're boring.
Traveling through Elemental Earth through titanic geode-like caverns illuminated by phosphorescent minerals. Civilizations of dao that carve their history in golden inlayed runes on stalactites. Oceans of crystalline dust and plains of diamonds.
Sailing across a sea of magma in Elemental Fire, running from Efreet slavers out of the City of Brass. Finding hints to the story of the Codex of Infinite Plains from a janni merchant lord in the markets of that grand city. Rain of molten gold, skies of sublimated metal forming glittering clouds.
A pressureless infinite ocean, dotted with the sunken ruins of a thousand lost continents swallowed up by the depths of their home worlds and finally seized and dragged into Elemental Water by nations of greedy marids or ever-hungry brine dragons. Nations of pirates dwelling in glass-encapsulated cities, warring with nations of sahuagins.
Infinite skies of Elemental Air dotted with drifting islands stolen from the Prime Material, or sold by dao to their genie cousins as they war against blue and silver dragons, titans in their cloud castles, and mortal wizards seeking tranquility among the infinite blue expanse.
Clearly the classic D&D elemental planes were boring as all heck...
The 4e elemental chaos IMO did little else besides mash together the most interesting locations that were already present in the 1e/2e/3e elemental planes and make the whole place designed around PC survivability and "adventure" rather than being designed for a metaphysical purpose. It was a very gamist design ethos. The universe doesn't need to revolve around PCs, and IMO it only cheapens the sense of wonder when it's crafted to do so.
Air and water were (and still can be) easy to traverse. Fire even to a degree was traversible, because there would be air to breathe. However, the descriptions I saw of Earth didn't include a surface such that you could have those diamond covered plains. The plane of earth was solid with small pockets of air in the descriptions I saw. Now, some people may have played it the way you describe (and that's the type of "earthen" area I'd put in my elemental chaos), but the classic description is that you appear in the plane, hopefully with air in your lungs, and that it immediately tries to crush you as you "displace" earth and continues to inflict crushing damage on you every few minutes. You have to use tunneling magics to move around (or magic to walk through rock), but as you move, the rock backfills behind you. Oh, and there's no air to breathe, so you need to effectively stop your need to breathe. Oh yeah, and you can't see ahead of you, because its all rock.
As far as the old, separated elemental planes go, I figure that a realm limited thematically to one element, yet infinite in size, should fulfill the infinite possibilities that element can express. The elemental plane of earth, for example. In my games, it is FOR THE MOST PART oppressive and suffocating and crushing and whatnot, but there are gonna also be caves and kingdoms and innumerable wonders. It's just a matter of finding them.
In short, I think there's definitely room for Shemmy's examples of elemental planar destinations, although I would concede they would not be common sights. However, I expect that for many of us, finding such rare locations and exploring them is what it's all about! |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2013 : 16:50:54
|
| Please shorten the reply sections you copy, a pain to read on a phone lol |
|
|
|
ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 06:46:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I wonder how this is going to affect the novels. Sure, the DM has more freedom in the gaming world, but you can't very well "decide" what happens in the books.
But...the novels were based off the game, so the game comes first, I suppose.
This has clearly gone in its own really fascinating direction, and I don't want to derail it, but I did want to address your concern, CorellonsDevout.
This is not how things are being handled. For real. Swear on a stack of Volo's Guides.
In fact, I do know what's happening with Asmodeus, because it was my idea. I told them what I needed to happen to make sense with my Brimstone Angels series. Then I told them what I wanted to do because I thought it was cool and worked with the lore and the books. And now that's what's happening.
(NDA, etc, so I'm going to be really wicked and not address silverwolfer's scoop. (BWAHAHAHA!) I will say that it was a high point of the story summit to have Ed's enthusiastic approval on this aspect of the story though.)
Really, really truly--and I know I can say this a hundred times, but it won't feel true until things start coming out--the novels are not just being dragged along for the ride.
*Ahem* Carry on. |
www.slushlush.com |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 14:21:14
|
Actually - and we do indeed appreciate your input Erin (as well as all the other authors kind enough to participate here) - there is actually no reason at all why what CorellonsDevout was 'worried about' can't be the 'new normal'.
Do people argue about the other planets in the Middle-Earth solar system? Of course not... because Tolkien never addressed them.
The trick to building a great RPG setting is to leave all the loose ends in-place, rather then tying them all off by traveling to every corner of the multiverse.
And as I've said before, the second any story 'steps off' Toril for another world or plane, it is no longer an FR story for me, sorry. Its either a Planescape or Spelljammer novel, which are completely different settings (or Ravenloft, but thats literally a 'grey area').
Stick with the world the setting is based on, and guess what? You don't have to field questions like this. 
On the other hand, I am in favor of treating the entire D&D multiverse as one Over-setting, but then the (planer) lore must remain consistent across all settings. If they merge FR with Planescape (and somewhat with Spelljammer, using 'astral ships'), and have FR be the 'center of the universe' (figuratively, at least, from a gaming perspective), then whatever setting material is produced for D&D could be considered FR canon. That would work for me, and the 'The Realms' get a much broader definition (any odd place that has been forgotten about by us ignorant 'Earthers' becomes a Forgotten Realm).
Broaden the definition, and "what happens in FR does NOT stay in FR" becomes the rule, and FR not only becomes the flagship/core setting, it becomes the base for all D&D. You can't have it both ways - thats where 3e went wrong. If D&D worlds are all part of one universe, then the extra-planer arena must remain a constant. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2013 14:21:46 |
|
|
|
Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 14:45:23
|
“Do people argue about the other planets in the Middle-Earth solar system? Of course not... because Tolkien never addressed them.”
Actually he started to, Lost tales volume III the Great Worlds. There’s all plenty of mention to them in the People’s of middle earth, at least in snidbits. Keep in mind, his WWI injuries did make it difficult for him to write, and he wasn’t big into dictation. There’s some debate as exactly where the dwarves of the Rodiron clan went to, with their ships that went through the doors of time, as well as with regards to the world tree that reached the heavens that Melkar? Claimed. Pleas forgive spelling errors, am away from books. And while I don’t mind making it all one big setting, I’d prefer it if travel to certain places was rather difficult.
|
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 15:23:29
|
Way to nuke my point. LOL 
You can take any genre/setting and apply this: Suppose I wanted to run a game based on the Underworld series of movies. I'd probably go with the Vampire: The Masquerade rules, but beyond the vamps themselves (and Lycans, and whatever else the White Wolf rules covers), I have free reign over things that fall outside of all that.
If I want the vamps to meet aliens, I can. If I want them to have to deal with Cthulhu cultists (I have to write that one down...), I can. None of this is covered by the stories, so it can fall into the DM's hands to mold and shape as he/she wills.
Perhaps what I am getting at is that the Realms should focus on The Realms, and stop going all over the place. Its as if the setting has grown beyond its own readership, which is a very bad situation. We started with 'small stories' about 'small things'*, and that's what made the setting great. How ordinary people can make a difference. It also just-so-happens to be what D&D is all about.
*Except for the Avatar books, which is the series that completely broke from that, and because it sold well (for much the same reason traffic slows down for a train-wreck), the powers-that-be said, "Hey! Lets do more of that!" They seem to get the impression the fans liked it when they 'blew up the world'. {sigh} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2013 15:24:37 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 15:24:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually - and we do indeed appreciate your input Erin (as well as all the other authors kind enough to participate here) - there is actually no reason at all why what CorellonsDevout was 'worried about' can't be the 'new normal'.
Do people argue about the other planets in the Middle-Earth solar system? Of course not... because Tolkien never addressed them.
The trick to building a great RPG setting is to leave all the loose ends in-place, rather then tying them all off by traveling to every corner of the multiverse.
And as I've said before, the second any story 'steps off' Toril for another world or plane, it is no longer an FR story for me, sorry. Its either a Planescape or Spelljammer novel, which are completely different settings (or Ravenloft, but thats literally a 'grey area').
Stick with the world the setting is based on, and guess what? You don't have to field questions like this.
On the other hand, I am in favor of treating the entire D&D multiverse as one Over-setting, but then the (planer) lore must remain consistent across all settings. If they merge FR with Planescape (and somewhat with Spelljammer, using 'astral ships'), and have FR be the 'center of the universe' (figuratively, at least, from a gaming perspective), then whatever setting material is produced for D&D could be considered FR canon. That would work for me, and the 'The Realms' get a much broader definition (any odd place that has been forgotten about by us ignorant 'Earthers' becomes a Forgotten Realm).
Broaden the definition, and "what happens in FR does NOT stay in FR" becomes the rule, and FR not only becomes the flagship/core setting, it becomes the base for all D&D. You can't have it both ways - thats where 3e went wrong. If D&D worlds are all part of one universe, then the extra-planer arena must remain a constant.
Well, in 2E, the entire D&D universe was in one oversetting... Between Planescape and Spelljammer, you could go from Krynn to Oerth to Toril, or just about anywhere else... Heck, we have, in canon, a Nehwon ghoul in the Realms.
But then they broke it all up, with advancing Krynn's timeline much further ahead and then the FR 3E cosmology, which -- at least to me -- felt like a deliberate attempt to isolate the Realms from the rest of the multiverse. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 15:35:11
|
"Perhaps what I am getting at is that the Realms should focus on The Realms, and stop going all over the place. Its as if the setting has grown beyond its
own readership, which is a very bad situation. We started with 'small stories' about 'small things'*, and that's what made the setting great. How ordinary
people can make a difference. It also just-so-happens to be what D&D is all about.
"
Could you elaberate, please. Because, not to disagree with your point, I've not seen that, but that's not to say that it's not occuring. I mean beyond the OS, I don't know where this could be taking place. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 15:35:15
|
The Harper series is what got most people into the Realms (at the beginning). For me, it was the Moonshae novels. Then there was the (early) Drizzt books, before he became so 'uber', which was also a small, localized story. All of those are about (fairly) normal people doing extraordinary things.
When the main characters are demon-tailed tieflings, planet-juggling shadowy demi-gods, and super-liches from 'other dimensions' that can pwn the settings best (the Chosen), then the setting has lost all connection with its readership. How can I relate to such characters? I am running a level 5 fighter (or whatever) - I can't compete with that! I don't fart volcanoes and belch thunderstorms - I'm just a normal guy who wants to bash some Orcs. I may as well go play in some other world, where I can make a difference (like Golarion).
This is what killed the (originally excellent) Thieves World anthologies - an escalation of power by the authors to absurd proportions. History repeats itself. Movies are the worst offenders of this trend ('bigger is better').
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But then they broke it all up, with advancing Krynn's timeline much further ahead and then the FR 3E cosmology, which -- at least to me -- felt like a deliberate attempt to isolate the Realms from the rest of the multiverse.
Which is why I pointed at 3e as the culprit in that post - that is one MAJOR thing that 4e actually tried to fix.
I LOVE 3e - its still my favorite edition (which has a lot to do with the rules, admittedly, and less about FR), but the few things it did wrong, it did in a BIG way.
I think 3e broke far more (Planer) canon then 4e did, when you really stop and think about it. We tend to look at just the world (two, nowadays... weird, that), but if we look at the big picture - the entire D&D mutiverse itself - 3e made much greater sweeping changes to that then 4e did, IMO. If anything, 4e tried to correct some of that, and bring all the settings back in-line.
Thats why we need to go back to the Great Wheel, but make sure everyone knows its just a (mortal-created) 'abstract model', and doesn't even come close to representing the true Universe (which even the gods can't fathom). Its a theory, nothing more, but thus-far has proven the 'best one' (the one that covers the most points). Just like in RW Physics, the theories that get the most widely excepted are those that cover the most situations. It doesn't make them the TRUTH, it makes them the best we can come up with at this time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 28 Apr 2013 13:38:32 |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 18:40:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I wonder how this is going to affect the novels. Sure, the DM has more freedom in the gaming world, but you can't very well "decide" what happens in the books.
But...the novels were based off the game, so the game comes first, I suppose.
This has clearly gone in its own really fascinating direction, and I don't want to derail it, but I did want to address your concern, CorellonsDevout.
This is not how things are being handled. For real. Swear on a stack of Volo's Guides.
In fact, I do know what's happening with Asmodeus, because it was my idea. I told them what I needed to happen to make sense with my Brimstone Angels series. Then I told them what I wanted to do because I thought it was cool and worked with the lore and the books. And now that's what's happening.
(NDA, etc, so I'm going to be really wicked and not address silverwolfer's scoop. (BWAHAHAHA!) I will say that it was a high point of the story summit to have Ed's enthusiastic approval on this aspect of the story though.)
Really, really truly--and I know I can say this a hundred times, but it won't feel true until things start coming out--the novels are not just being dragged along for the ride.
*Ahem* Carry on.
Love the Bwahahaha, every writer should have a good evil laugh.
In all seriousness I thought you or Kemp were the source of the scoop Erin. Guess I was wrong in my guess. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
New information on the sundering revealed
