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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 20:27:28
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I wonder how this is going to affect the novels. Sure, the DM has more freedom in the gaming world, but you can't very well "decide" what happens in the books.
But...the novels were based off the game, so the game comes first, I suppose.
This has clearly gone in its own really fascinating direction, and I don't want to derail it, but I did want to address your concern, CorellonsDevout.
This is not how things are being handled. For real. Swear on a stack of Volo's Guides.
In fact, I do know what's happening with Asmodeus, because it was my idea. I told them what I needed to happen to make sense with my Brimstone Angels series. Then I told them what I wanted to do because I thought it was cool and worked with the lore and the books. And now that's what's happening.
(NDA, etc, so I'm going to be really wicked and not address silverwolfer's scoop. (BWAHAHAHA!) I will say that it was a high point of the story summit to have Ed's enthusiastic approval on this aspect of the story though.)
Really, really truly--and I know I can say this a hundred times, but it won't feel true until things start coming out--the novels are not just being dragged along for the ride.
*Ahem* Carry on.
At least I'll know who to blame if things go south for Team Baator.
Nah, I'm sure it'll be fine. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2013 : 21:50:57
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| The last part was helpful Marcus, I didn't know there was a Harpers series. Need to look into that. As for me, my first Realms novel was the one about Raven's bluff. Then I read Making of a Mage. The game though is what introduced me to the Realms though. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 13:46:56
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Re-reading my last post - the part about 'bigger is better'; I have to wonder... is that impossible to avoid?
Movies do it, novel series do it, and you even see it creeping into things like art and entertainment. Does the 'next thing' ALWAYS have to be 'bigger & better' (nowadays) then the last one?
It makes me think that movie franchises and novel-settings have a certain shelf-life; that the 'escalation factor' is unavoidable. I guess that's why so many movie franchises eventually get re-booted - it can't be helped.
If this is true, then we really can't go back to a 'simpler' FR. 
Perhaps TSR had the right of it, despite all its mistakes. You need to create and release a new campaign world every few years. Its the only way to avoid power-creep in the settings we love. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Madmage
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 16:19:25
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Escalation in media depends on the media itself. For may forms of media, the initial investment is so huge (movies, some TV, AAA video game titles) that the bean counters play a major role in the creative process. They want to be guaranteed a return on investment so they'll push for "safe", particularly when it comes to the concept of franchises. Increasing the stakes of the same story is a much easier/lazier way to achieve that. It's one of the reasons Hollywood writers get paid a pittance when compared to the actors, producers etc.
In gaming, whether video game or what have you, escalation or power creep generally is more organic as we deal with systems that make it so the characters grow not just as individuals (presumably) but also in their own ability to overcome more concrete obstacles like opposing forces on the battlefield. There's only so many times that a creator can strip away the protagonists' success (i.e. loot, power) from the previous entry in the series before players or the audience begin to think: "then what was the point of the conclusion of the previous story if you're just going to take them away in the next?"
I find only TV character driven dramas to accomplish staying fresh without resorting to escalation within a linear story where characters progress. Comedies rely on funny premise to sustain the series and an episode can often be taken on its own, separate from the rest or fit into a very variable chronological order that matters not. You could take many episodes of Seinfeld and swap them around from when they first aired without affecting the timeline of the show's universe. Some episodes just need to be chronologically linked to have taken place before others (like episodes where George is engaged vs after his fiancés death or before he got engaged). |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 19:47:42
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| I entered via Pool of Radiance video game. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 20:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But then they broke it all up, with advancing Krynn's timeline much further ahead and then the FR 3E cosmology, which -- at least to me -- felt like a deliberate attempt to isolate the Realms from the rest of the multiverse.
That's largely what it was.
The thinking was that all these other places+Planescape were bleeding into the Realms and taking the focus away from it (which they were, IMNSHO). Also, that gamers who liked multi-planar adventures but wanted to use the 3E rules could simply ignore the Great Tree concept and use all their old Great Wheel stuff, no problem. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 21:02:23
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Except for a player who got into the planar/Planescape stuff more recently, much of the out-of-print material is getting prohibitively expensive to obtain (a perfect storm of 15+ years out-of-print, well regarded with a cult following, perhaps a smaller print run than other products, and high production values). A post-2E version of such material (read: occasional support) would be useful in that instance. Else the specific population is a closed set that will dwindle with the attrition and demands of real life. We see an example of such benefits in the OSR community where retroclones of older edition rules sets brought new life to the gaming and adventure style of that era.
The current version of a setting or game system holds great influence just from the support, availability, and awareness just from being actively published. Making PDFs available was a step in the right direction, though I still prefer a print book every once in a while.
As for escalation, other settings do just fine without the world shattering plots. FR established a bad precedent with the ToT and failed to learn from that and other examples like in Dragonlance by following it up with the Spellplague and now the Sundering. We will see if there is anything left of the setting after the Sundering. There is a chance it could annoy another segment of the fanbase without gaining or regaining another portion. |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 18:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually - and we do indeed appreciate your input Erin (as well as all the other authors kind enough to participate here) - there is actually no reason at all why what CorellonsDevout was 'worried about' can't be the 'new normal'.
So I only mean her concern that the game is going to force things to happen in the novels because it has precedence, for the record. I'm not diving into the planar discussion because...well, you guys got this and since I already write books that jump into and out of the Hells, and will certainly continue doing so, it's pretty clear where I stand on that part.
Gyor and Chosen of Asmodeus, thanks for those votes of confidence. :) I can't wait for people to read these books!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 19:37:56
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Is Hell now a 'Forgotten Realm'?
On the other hand, there is that famous quote: "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
Hence, to us - people in the RW - Hell would qualify as a 'Forgotten Realm'.
And now I'm just arguing with myself.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Apr 2013 19:38:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 20:28:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But then they broke it all up, with advancing Krynn's timeline much further ahead and then the FR 3E cosmology, which -- at least to me -- felt like a deliberate attempt to isolate the Realms from the rest of the multiverse.
That's largely what it was.
The thinking was that all these other places+Planescape were bleeding into the Realms and taking the focus away from it (which they were, IMNSHO). Also, that gamers who liked multi-planar adventures but wanted to use the 3E rules could simply ignore the Great Tree concept and use all their old Great Wheel stuff, no problem.
Really? So having the potential to go elsewhere detracts from the setting, and must be replaced with the potential to go elsewhere? Failing to understand that logic... |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 05:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
My problem with the four separate planes partly comes down to this; even if you can survive there(using high level magics), why on earth would you ever want to go there? Not in character, that is; why would the player ever want to go there? They're boring.
Traveling through Elemental Earth through titanic geode-like caverns illuminated by phosphorescent minerals. Civilizations of dao that carve their history in golden inlayed runes on stalactites. Oceans of crystalline dust and plains of diamonds.
Sailing across a sea of magma in Elemental Fire, running from Efreet slavers out of the City of Brass. Finding hints to the story of the Codex of Infinite Plains from a janni merchant lord in the markets of that grand city. Rain of molten gold, skies of sublimated metal forming glittering clouds.
A pressureless infinite ocean, dotted with the sunken ruins of a thousand lost continents swallowed up by the depths of their home worlds and finally seized and dragged into Elemental Water by nations of greedy marids or ever-hungry brine dragons. Nations of pirates dwelling in glass-encapsulated cities, warring with nations of sahuagins.
Infinite skies of Elemental Air dotted with drifting islands stolen from the Prime Material, or sold by dao to their genie cousins as they war against blue and silver dragons, titans in their cloud castles, and mortal wizards seeking tranquility among the infinite blue expanse.
Clearly the classic D&D elemental planes were boring as all heck...
The 4e elemental chaos IMO did little else besides mash together the most interesting locations that were already present in the 1e/2e/3e elemental planes and make the whole place designed around PC survivability and "adventure" rather than being designed for a metaphysical purpose. It was a very gamist design ethos. The universe doesn't need to revolve around PCs, and IMO it only cheapens the sense of wonder when it's crafted to do so.
Where from pre 4e descriptions was this from, because honestly this sounds more like the Elemental Chaos, the way you put those together.
I ask that as someone without a horse as such in the Elemental Chaos vs. Elemental Planes debate. I care more that they are promoted as interesting places to go, filled with wonder instead of being depicted as elemental storage closests.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 06:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
My problem with the four separate planes partly comes down to this; even if you can survive there(using high level magics), why on earth would you ever want to go there? Not in character, that is; why would the player ever want to go there? They're boring.
Traveling through Elemental Earth through titanic geode-like caverns illuminated by phosphorescent minerals. Civilizations of dao that carve their history in golden inlayed runes on stalactites. Oceans of crystalline dust and plains of diamonds.
Sailing across a sea of magma in Elemental Fire, running from Efreet slavers out of the City of Brass. Finding hints to the story of the Codex of Infinite Plains from a janni merchant lord in the markets of that grand city. Rain of molten gold, skies of sublimated metal forming glittering clouds.
A pressureless infinite ocean, dotted with the sunken ruins of a thousand lost continents swallowed up by the depths of their home worlds and finally seized and dragged into Elemental Water by nations of greedy marids or ever-hungry brine dragons. Nations of pirates dwelling in glass-encapsulated cities, warring with nations of sahuagins.
Infinite skies of Elemental Air dotted with drifting islands stolen from the Prime Material, or sold by dao to their genie cousins as they war against blue and silver dragons, titans in their cloud castles, and mortal wizards seeking tranquility among the infinite blue expanse.
Clearly the classic D&D elemental planes were boring as all heck...
The 4e elemental chaos IMO did little else besides mash together the most interesting locations that were already present in the 1e/2e/3e elemental planes and make the whole place designed around PC survivability and "adventure" rather than being designed for a metaphysical purpose. It was a very gamist design ethos. The universe doesn't need to revolve around PCs, and IMO it only cheapens the sense of wonder when it's crafted to do so.
Where from pre 4e descriptions was this from, because honestly this sounds more like the Elemental Chaos, the way you put those together.
I ask that as someone without a horse as such in the Elemental Chaos vs. Elemental Planes debate. I care more that they are promoted as interesting places to go, filled with wonder instead of being depicted as elemental storage closests.
I'd suggest taking a look at the 2e 'Inner Planes' by Monte Cook, as well as 2e's 'Secrets of the Lamp' by Wolfgang Baur. Some of the locations explored there were later translated into 3.x in the Manual of the Planes by Grubb et al, and similarly a lot of the interesting locations therein were then ported into 4e's elemental chaos. 2e was the high point of detail however for the elemental planes across the editions, and I'm a big fan of their approach from that time period (even though I was a bit young and not gaming at the time they were in print).
I tried to take a similar approach as the 2e material when I worked on Pathfinder's elemental planes (though they're finite and in a unique configuration compared to any of the above). I like unique and interesting vistas that make you want to go there (or make you fear going there), but at the same time such locations need to fit into a context and an ecology of their own, rather than having the planes be obviously designed around a metagame concept like player accessibility at X level versus Y level. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 07:05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Harper series is what got most people into the Realms (at the beginning). For me, it was the Moonshae novels. Then there was the (early) Drizzt books, before he became so 'uber', which was also a small, localized story. All of those are about (fairly) normal people doing extraordinary things.
When the main characters are demon-tailed tieflings, planet-juggling shadowy demi-gods, and super-liches from 'other dimensions' that can pwn the settings best (the Chosen), then the setting has lost all connection with its readership. How can I relate to such characters? I am running a level 5 fighter (or whatever) - I can't compete with that! I don't fart volcanoes and belch thunderstorms - I'm just a normal guy who wants to bash some Orcs. I may as well go play in some other world, where I can make a difference (like Golarion).
This is what killed the (originally excellent) Thieves World anthologies - an escalation of power by the authors to absurd proportions. History repeats itself. Movies are the worst offenders of this trend ('bigger is better').
I question how a character's power level effects if I can relate to them or not. And I also question if I need to be able to relate to them to like them.
In many ways, I can't relate to Superman. I don't have the power of a god, I'm not from a dead world, there are no remnants of that same dead world that act as poison to me, I don't have a secret identity, the world doesn't worship me as a hero, and my every decision doesn't have the potential to reshape the world. I dare say every one else who enjoys Superman has the same list, yet the character has been going strong since right around when my grandmother was born. His comics have also been riddled with the escalation problem.
I imagine this applies to virtually every comic character out there as well. But, even with all of that, there are ways people can relate (should they feel the need to). Does the world look to me for an example, no it doesn't. However, my younger relatives do and as such I have to try to set a good example. Am I super strong, no, but I am stronger and larger than average and I have a responsibility to not abuse that. Likewise with my intelligence. In these small ways on a small scale I can relate to a being with god like power. I can't change the entire world, but I can help shape the lives of those around me.
It is the same with Realms characters. I can't relate to Elminster when it comes to power. I have no magic nor am I the emissary of a divine being. Yet I can feel how tired he is and how much he has lost over the centuries. I can't relate to Erevis Cale in terms of being a thief and assassin or the pawn of a dark god. I can relate to being someone that has more than passing dark impulses and had my early life gone differently I might not be such a nice person now. And so on and so on.
It all boils down to the author. I am not a woman, nor a tiefling, nor a serious outcast, yet I can empathize with Farideh despite her being all of those things and I chalk it up to Erin's writing. I don't have to be like these characters to feel what they feel. The key is to make them interesting characters and not just stat blocks.
Rivalen Tanthul is now a demigod. And in 3.x terms a Mystic Theurge I believe, along with being Shar's Chosen in all but name. He is a (supposedly) setting breaking character, and yet I want to read more about him because he is an interesting character and because he is part of a larger web of drama that will eventually come to a head and the outcome of that will effect the Realms.
Moving beyond the specific examples, I don't see how the Realms could stay low level and survive. The setting isn't low level to begin with. This talk of escalation is the novels expanding their perspective, nothing more. The high level stuff was already there, it was just window dressing and not the focus. You can't sustain a setting that is filled with earth shattering magic and events with novels that follow low level characters forever. It would be like Marvel Comics only writing about S.H.I.E.L.D. It's an interesting gimmick but eventually you either have to write about the X-Men and Avengers or you go out of business. The Realms is high magic through and through and filled with all kinds of non humans. If the books didn't eventually put some of the focus on those things it would seem like they were being ignored which leads people to wonder why you even bothered to mention them in the frst place.
I want to see more of the non humans and their pantheons, I want to see more potent magic, I want to see more of the planes. It's all there, use it. I've got LotR to get my fill of "a Human (really a distantly kind of part Elf, but whatever), an Elf, and a Dwarf go slaughter lots of Orcs in an attempt to save the world" and Drizzt* to get my Realms variation (a Dark Elf, a couple humans, and a Dwarf go slaughter lots of Orcs to save their little piece of the world), show me something different. This is a part of why I liked the House of Serpents trilogy. It heavily featured the Yuan Ti and psionics, two relatively ignored parts of the Realms in a relatively ignored region. Likewise with the Chosen of Nendawen trilogy. It heavily features Goblinoids as characters and covers a relatively uncovered region. Flesh out the Realms and show everyone how they are unique instead of boldly going where fantasy has gone many times before**.
*Drizzt also gets to play out the destruction of the Ring, I mean, Charon's Claw. Now that I think about it, didn't Cadderly have some part in awakening a forest to attack an army of Orcs?
** To be clear, we do need the low power stories and the "stock fantasy" type stories as they are also part of the Realms. I am not advocating every novel set up be a bad D&D joke "so a Psionic Lich, a Half Fiend, an orc, and a Deva go on a quest across the planes to find the means to kill Kurtulmak, the Kobold god, before he can overthrow AO. Their story begins in a tavern in Waterdeep...", but I am glad that we seem to see those types of characters more often now. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 16:11:40
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The realms is still the best seller in D&D so the idea of having grown beyond its readership seems silly to me.
They kept having RSE and other epic stories because they sell well.
I hope the realms continues to have a mix of smaller events and Epic ones, abit without RSE after the Sundering, although I don't mind averted RSEs. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 16:15:46
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The problem with 'interesting characters' in a GAME setting is that then everyone wants to play one, which is what lead to drow going from REALLY ebil bastiches to pitiable, angsty (misunderstood) but lovable PCs.
It all started with Drizzt... and ended with a Cthulhu 'plushie'.
If something has horns and a tail, I KILL IT. I don't give a damn what orphanage it might donate to.
In novels, yes, all kinds of 'break the mold' stuff is possible, but in a game setting it damages the integrity of the system. Now no-one wants to be plain vanilla humans - everyone wants to be a robot, or a half-fiend, or demi-dragon, etc.
Its why Gary built racial level limits into the original game; because he knew once you let the genie out of the lamp, no-one going to want to be human anymore. I am all for the characters being 'exceptional', but come on... demonic-looking tieflings, dragonborn, drow, etc can't just walk into a tavern and order a mead... thats NOT The Realms. Its not even human nature. Something 'looks different', you stab it and ask questions later.
I fully understand that when it comes to worlds, generic D&D ones (like Toril and Oerth) are more 'excepting' of things we wouldn't be, and far more tolerant of 'things outside the norm'. In fact, FR is known for that, but it has gone from "suspicious of anyone not from around here" to the Mos Eisley Cantina.
How can DMs 'dial it back' in their own games, when every novel is about a non- or super-human? Normal humans have become the 'fodder' - who wants to play that? I wouldn't mind so much, but the majority of players out there aren't very good at playing non-human... how could they possibly be? They are basically running a re-skinned human with powers. Hell, the Dragonborn even have boobs! Talk about throwing logic right out the window.
Most gamers have always played elves as pointy-eared humans, and halflings and dwarves as short ones. But now the problem has become exacerbated. The last time I read about 'the most human' character in the Realms - Elminster - he was some sort of ash lich. WTH? Being 'perfectly human' was what I loved about the old goat. Even Artemis Entreri is some sort of demi-Shade at this point.
I guess what I am trying to say is that these generic D&D RPG worlds were always riding the line of believability when it came to racial interactions, but I think (as in, IMO) that 4e may have 'jumped the shark'. FR used to remind me of a fantasy version of Earth, but now its become some sort of strange, alien world. I suppose if you like that sort of thing, great, but if you don't... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Apr 2013 16:16:56 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 18:41:55
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The realms is still the best seller in D&D so the idea of having grown beyond its readership seems silly to me.
They kept having RSE and other epic stories because they sell well.
I hope the realms continues to have a mix of smaller events and Epic ones, abit without RSE after the Sundering, although I don't mind averted RSEs. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 19:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem with 'interesting characters' in a GAME setting is that then everyone wants to play one, which is what lead to drow going from REALLY ebil bastiches to pitiable, angsty (misunderstood) but lovable PCs.
It all started with Drizzt... and ended with a Cthulhu 'plushie'.
If something has horns and a tail, I KILL IT. I don't give a damn what orphanage it might donate to.
In novels, yes, all kinds of 'break the mold' stuff is possible, but in a game setting it damages the integrity of the system. Now no-one wants to be plain vanilla humans - everyone wants to be a robot, or a half-fiend, or demi-dragon, etc.
Its why Gary built racial level limits into the original game; because he knew once you let the genie out of the lamp, no-one going to want to be human anymore. I am all for the characters being 'exceptional', but come on... demonic-looking tieflings, dragonborn, drow, etc can't just walk into a tavern and order a mead... thats NOT The Realms. Its not even human nature. Something 'looks different', you stab it and ask questions later.
I fully understand that when it comes to worlds, generic D&D ones (like Toril and Oerth) are more 'excepting' of things we wouldn't be, and far more tolerant of 'things outside the norm'. In fact, FR is known for that, but it has gone from "suspicious of anyone not from around here" to the Mos Eisley Cantina.
How can DMs 'dial it back' in their own games, when every novel is about a non- or super-human? Normal humans have become the 'fodder' - who wants to play that? I wouldn't mind so much, but the majority of players out there aren't very good at playing non-human... how could they possibly be? They are basically running a re-skinned human with powers. Hell, the Dragonborn even have boobs! Talk about throwing logic right out the window.
Most gamers have always played elves as pointy-eared humans, and halflings and dwarves as short ones. But now the problem has become exacerbated. The last time I read about 'the most human' character in the Realms - Elminster - he was some sort of ash lich. WTH? Being 'perfectly human' was what I loved about the old goat. Even Artemis Entreri is some sort of demi-Shade at this point.
I guess what I am trying to say is that these generic D&D RPG worlds were always riding the line of believability when it came to racial interactions, but I think (as in, IMO) that 4e may have 'jumped the shark'. FR used to remind me of a fantasy version of Earth, but now its become some sort of strange, alien world. I suppose if you like that sort of thing, great, but if you don't...
Personally I find the whole "If it doesn't look human, kill it" mentality to be overly simplistic and frankly offensive. What happens when someone decides having dark skin, or a big nose, or squinting eyes qualifies as not looking "human enough"? This isn't any different. "They look different, so we kill them" is a terrible justification. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 22:35:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Personally I find the whole "If it doesn't look human, kill it" mentality to be overly simplistic and frankly offensive. What happens when someone decides having dark skin, or a big nose, or squinting eyes qualifies as not looking "human enough"? This isn't any different. "They look different, so we kill them" is a terrible justification.
I'm sure Markus wasn't calling for this. Rather, I believe he was addressing the all-too-human tendency to assume an "us versus them" mentality; a mentality which often characters "others" by religion, culture, and/or physical appearance.
One could assume that in a fantasy world with multiple humanoid species, there would still be a tendency for some to reject those whose appearance was dramatically different from the viewer.
Additionally, the rather evil reputation of drow should cause a reaction from almost all goodly races; their reputation is such that a "kill it before it can kill us!" attitude is widespread, and seeing deviation from that mindset should be unusual. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 23:03:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem with 'interesting characters' in a GAME setting is that then everyone wants to play one, which is what lead to drow going from REALLY ebil bastiches to pitiable, angsty (misunderstood) but lovable PCs.
In novels, yes, all kinds of 'break the mold' stuff is possible, but in a game setting it damages the integrity of the system. Now no-one wants to be plain vanilla humans - everyone wants to be a robot, or a half-fiend, or demi-dragon, etc.
That's a player problem. I want interesting characters to read about, sorry it somehow leads you to playing with uncreative people.
I am a human. If I have the option to be otherwise in a game, then I have no interest in playing a human. I play games for escapism, I don't play games to pretend to be myself in another setting. It's the same reason I play evil characters in SW: Knights of the Old Republic. It's a chance to do something and be something I can't be in real life. Sign me up for a cybernetic, half dragon/half fiend Shade wizard/ninja hybrid. My having options doesn't take away from your ability to play a human.
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Its why Gary built racial level limits into the original game; because he knew once you let the genie out of the lamp, no-one going to want to be human anymore. I am all for the characters being 'exceptional', but come on... demonic-looking tieflings, dragonborn, drow, etc can't just walk into a tavern and order a mead... thats NOT The Realms. Its not even human nature. Something 'looks different', you stab it and ask questions later.
I fully understand that when it comes to worlds, generic D&D ones (like Toril and Oerth) are more 'excepting' of things we wouldn't be, and far more tolerant of 'things outside the norm'. In fact, FR is known for that, but it has gone from "suspicious of anyone not from around here" to the Mos Eisley Cantina.
I would argue that it was always going to become the Mos Eisley Cantina, more importantly that it had to. I think it strains believability that we are supposed to believe that on Toril humans have lived with other non human races for tens of thousands of years and yet they randomly attack certain races that haven't done anything to them. The Drow are understandable, everyone knows they are Evil. Tieflings? Dragonborn? What have they done to earn everyone's hate? Suspicion, sure that makes sense. Kill on site? That's a bit extreme. Either the game was going to have a handful of playable races and their assorted half spawns, or it was going to get with the times and open up and as a consequence the other races were going to have to be at least somewhat accepted in certain parts. People want options and there is no good answer (except those instances where the answer is "those don't exist in the Realms") to "why can't I play an XYZ when the Monster Manual (or Players Handbook) says they are free willed?"
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How can DMs 'dial it back' in their own games, when every novel is about a non- or super-human? Normal humans have become the 'fodder' - who wants to play that? I wouldn't mind so much, but the majority of players out there aren't very good at playing non-human... how could they possibly be? They are basically running a re-skinned human with powers. Hell, the Dragonborn even have boobs! Talk about throwing logic right out the window.
I believe you are exaggerating. The Haunted Lands and the follow up Brotherhood of the Griffon books are filled primarily with humans. The initial trilogy is set pretty well entirely in Thay, where anyone with any real power is human or used to be before becoming some type of Undead. The main Brotherhood characters are human (and I believe a dwarf). The Chessentans in the first trilogy are human. The Rashemi in the 4th and 5th book are human.
Most of the characters in the second Erevis Cale trilogy are humans or Shades (who were human) with the main exceptions of a Cambion and his father Mephistopheles.
The Shades were human and as characters they may as well still be human.
Every Cormyr story is very human dominated if other races even make an appearance at all. Waterdeep is more open, but still obviously human controlled. The more out there non-humans seem, to me from reading the novels, to be primarily in their own little regions and outside those regions they potentially face issues.
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Most gamers have always played elves as pointy-eared humans, and halflings and dwarves as short ones. But now the problem has become exacerbated. The last time I read about 'the most human' character in the Realms - Elminster - he was some sort of ash lich. WTH? Being 'perfectly human' was what I loved about the old goat. Even Artemis Entreri is some sort of demi-Shade at this point.
I think here is where you and I have differeing views. I don't view someone who has lived for over 1000 years, has the power to level kingdoms, and who has slept with a Goddess to be "perfectly human". That being may appear and act human, but he is not human. I put him in the same category as the Shades. They are human in many of the ways that matter, but they aren't actually human. Also, he got over the Ash phase and finally had the most human reaction to everything that has happened. The end of the last book was him truly being human.
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I guess what I am trying to say is that these generic D&D RPG worlds were always riding the line of believability when it came to racial interactions, but I think (as in, IMO) that 4e may have 'jumped the shark'. FR used to remind me of a fantasy version of Earth, but now its become some sort of strange, alien world. I suppose if you like that sort of thing, great, but if you don't...
I don't think the Realms should be a Fantasy Earth type setting. It can have similarities, but it should be wildly different in many ways. With just a few facts of the setting (verifiable Gods that empower mortal servants, magic, non human intelligent races, planar travel, various means of achieving immortality and undeath) the setting should be massively divergent from our world. If you had our Earth and an exact duplicate and introduced any one of those (much less all of them) onto one of those Earths it would change dramatically over time. It would be small at first, but it would eventually pick up speed.
I have nothing against you or your view Markus, but I seriously disagree with some of your ideas.
Also, sorry if this has turned into some kind of rant. I do not play pen and paper D&D. I have played some of the video games and I played with miniature skirmish game. I would like to play the P&P game but I have no group. So, maybe my lack of experience on this front is coloring my view. However, I am constantly amazed by some of the things I read about the game where people have a desire to limit options. I am perhaps mistunderstanding, but I thought the game was built on imagination and a desire to escape reality for a while. If that is the case, I want more options, not less. I don't want "Earth with magic and a few changes", I want the 3rd/4th Edition Realms where powerful magic and many different species fill the world with a myriad of plots and plans that exist on every level from scheming villagers to gods plotting against one another. Why in the world, given the possibility to be and do almost anything, would I ever want to play "me with a sword"? Having said that, I also have no interest in stopping you from doing that. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 04:18:52
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I agree with what is being said about playing races who aren't human - that it is a fun and fascinating way to escape the normalcy of our world and be something completely different (it would also help if the creators of games would also try to make a concerted effort to differentiate these non humans mentally from humans...). It's just something that's completely exciting. I love playing as Elves, if that wasn't obvious. Elves and Fey creatures tend to be my biggest fanbases. I also love elemental based creatures (like the Genasi) and Celestial creatures.
Now let me speak on the humans' behalf. I think the main reason people don't want to play as humans in many table top rpgs is because of the lack of depth put into humans. Humans, out of all races in fantasy, are the least well written of any of them, easily. The most humans ever really get is that they are 'the most diverse of all races; the most flexible of all; most common; northern humans tend to be fair haired and skinned while the farther you go south, it gets darker, etc, etc). Does that sound like anything exciting? Does it sound like much of a story to them? Not really. Sure there are ethnic groups of humans in the Realms and other places, but it hardly means anything. There has never been any true concerted effort in the Realms to specifically differentiate the humans in a meaningful way.
You know what the problem is? Everyone's too afraid of not being politically correct. Being PC is one of the worst things someone creating a fantasy world can be, especially to humans. They are so afraid of giving a human race (most even call them ethnicities just to 'not offend anyone') a positive or negative boost to an attribute to that of a different one because they are afraid of being 'racist', so therefore are left to leave humans bland and uninteresting.
That's my whole opinion on it. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 09:19:50
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| I have to disagree. I believe humans in the realms have been given enough information to give them a nice 'fantasy human' feel. The different Calishite, Chondothan, Illuskan, Mulan and Turami ethnicities have interesting history and culture, if you choose to look into them. |
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Druidic Groves
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 13:33:18
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Elves are pretty-much the norm, or at least, were. So are the other pre-4e core races.
The problem comes in when every new edition (and every new splat in 3e) has to have some 'new kewl' race... and most of those in 3e were total bombs. Same goes for PrCs. The system starts to fall apart when it becomes overly complicated.
'More' is not always better. For settings, yes, there is never enough material, but for rules there should be a logical end. Just one big rulebook the way Paizo did it, and then release little bits of optional rules in setting splats (which is also how it worked with the Mystara Gazeteers - funny how only Paizo realizes what a great idea those were).
Ideally (IMHO), WotC shouldn't even bother with rules anymore. Nearly everyone already has a favorite ruleset they are playing with - there is no need for another system. Just focus on settings (or just one setting - The Forgotten Realms). Or maybe just produce a very 'light' rules booklet for first-timers. Something quick and easy. Leave the more complicated 'big boy' rules to other companies, who are already doing it better.
I don't want to know about Abeir, and I don't want to know about the Nine Hells. I don't want to know about anything other then TORIL - 90% of which remains completely undetailed. There are sections of Faerűn-proper that haven't seen a sourcebook since 1st or 2nd edition, and some places have never gotten attention (and thats just on the main continent). Unless the 5th edition rules are some sort of 'godsend', I have no intention of purchasing anything other then setting material specifically about FR. I'm pretty sure that's what most of us here on this site want to see. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2013 14:00:06 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4469 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 18:25:55
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I have never felt that more options mean that I have to automatically accept them in my games. For example, I'm currently running a 4E game set in the M:tG setting of Ravnica. Here, there are no dwarves,halflings, or gnomes. Period. They do not exist in the setting and are therefore not options for my players regardless if they are in the Player's Handbook. I, of course, talk it over with my group before I do anything so that I know that's the kind of campaign they want to run. So I actually like more options, more races, more classes, more things that can help me build the sort of game that I envision.
Also, 4E gets a bad rap for making all the mechanics "core" in their design philosophy but that has never really hampered the Realms "officially". Their FR specific books and articles do not include dragon marks, Warforged, Mul, Sorcerer-Pact warlocks, or Clerics of Kord despite being options presented in books. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 18:38:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Also, 4E gets a bad rap for making all the mechanics "core" in their design philosophy but that has never really hampered the Realms "officially". Their FR specific books and articles do not include dragon marks, Warforged, Mul, Sorcerer-Pact warlocks, or Clerics of Kord despite being options presented in books.
Forced inclusion of dragonborn, radical changes to genasi, radical changes to tieflings, radical changes to Eladrin, changing the cosmology to fit core, etc.
4e getting a bad rap isn't entirely unjustified. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4469 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 20:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Also, 4E gets a bad rap for making all the mechanics "core" in their design philosophy but that has never really hampered the Realms "officially". Their FR specific books and articles do not include dragon marks, Warforged, Mul, Sorcerer-Pact warlocks, or Clerics of Kord despite being options presented in books.
Forced inclusion of dragonborn, radical changes to genasi, radical changes to tieflings, radical changes to Eladrin, changing the cosmology to fit core, etc.
4e getting a bad rap isn't entirely unjustified.
Meh, it's an easy thing to ignore though I was more or less talking about other setting stuff and splats (PH3, Heroes of Shadow, Monster Manual 3, etc.) not necessarily being shoved into the Realms. I'm fairly certain that no author has used or discussed Shard-Minds, Muls, Warforged, or Kalashatar in their novels nor did I see them in FR DDI Articles.
I find most of the stuff mutable in terms of how it'll effect my particular FR game. I don't expect everyone to have their Tiefling look exactly like the PHB's and same goes for Genasi. Some people like the fire-as-hair, lines of power on their skin sort of Genasi but I'd prefer mine with a more 3E style which is what I did. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 20:38:56
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| I maintain that the changes to genasi were a drastic improvement. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 21:51:37
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The only humans that were ever made interesting to me in any table top rpg were the humans of Oerth (Greyhawk). I especially enjoyed the Suel and the Scarlet Brotherhood. They had an actual depth and racial history to them that made them more than just humans. That's what a lot of fantasy settings lack too. Too many fantasy settings just slap humans as a medium or default race without much of a back story. Even in Neverwinter Nights, where you had a bunch of selectable subraces, you couldn't choose to be a subrace of human.
The problem is that there is hardly any distinction, not much making them unique. Yes, FR has human racial groups, but they are hardly discussed at all to the point where they may as well just be called cultures rather than actual racial groups. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 21:52:17
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quote:
Now no-one wants to be plain vanilla humans - everyone wants to be a robot, or a half-fiend, or demi-dragon, etc.
You think that sort of thing didn't exist before? Back in 2E when I was in a group almost the entire group played some kind of elf or another. Rarely did anyone play a human. If something else other than an elf was played, it was a dwarf, a half-orc, or a gnome typically. And sometimes even a Minotaur. I was usually the sole human player, and that was because only humans could be Paladins. And even then I still took a turn at playing an Aasimar Paladin when that option became available (+1 Str, +1 Wis was pretty nice).
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Its why Gary built racial level limits into the original game; because he knew once you let the genie out of the lamp, no-one going to want to be human anymore.
I call that bad game design. Nobody wanted to play a human because there was zero benefit to playing a human in comparison to other races. Yeah, there were the level limits, but that had no effect for two reasons. 1) Most campaigns didn't get high enough level for it to matter, and 2) Most people ignored the level limits. Seriously, who wants to play in a campaign where the human PC's are epic level while the nonhuman PC's are still stuck at level 12? Has anyone ever played a campaign like that? I doubt it. That's why they gave humans bonus skills and feats in 3E, because the way they used to do it was pisspoor design.
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I am all for the characters being 'exceptional', but come on... demonic-looking tieflings, dragonborn, drow, etc can't just walk into a tavern and order a mead... thats NOT The Realms. Its not even human nature. Something 'looks different', you stab it and ask questions later.
Why not? Fantasy worlds are not the real world. And in a fantasy world like the Realms, nonhumans are a pretty common sight. They've already been awash in dwarves, elves, halflings, gnomes, half-orcs, and more. Why not Tieflings, Dragonborn, etc?
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How can DMs 'dial it back' in their own games, when every novel is about a non- or super-human? Normal humans have become the 'fodder' - who wants to play that?
People who want good mechanical advantages, that's who*. Most of the people I played with back in my 2E days didn't play elves because they were in love with the elven race. They played them because they had great mechanical advantages, among other things. Give human characters good mechanical advantages and players will play them, too. It's why humans became a popular player race in 3E, because a lot of players saw an advantage in playing a race that had bonus skill points and feats.
* Here's a good example of that. I had a friend who read the Drizzt books and decided to play a Drow Ranger with two scimitars who worshipped Mielikki. It was a Drizzt clone, of course. But then he sat and thought for a few minutes and decided that scimitars were crap, so he switched them to katanas. Then he looked over the Ranger class, decided it didn't suit what he wanted, and instead opted for a Fighter/Thief as it was a better fighter and was stealthier. Lastly, he didn't like the Drow stat bonuses or XP penalty, so he switched to a Wood Elf, which had +1 Str and +1 Dex. So what started as a Drizzt clone ended up becoming a Wood Elf Fighter/Thief named Fenris who worshipped Mask (because he decided he liked Mask more than Mielikki).
In short, mechanics won out over his desire to imitate a novel, and he ended up playing a character who was very different to Drizzt. The same holds true for human characters. The answer to more human characters at the game table is to have playable humans with worthwhile mechanical bonuses, not eliminating nonhuman races. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 22:52:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Also, 4E gets a bad rap for making all the mechanics "core" in their design philosophy but that has never really hampered the Realms "officially". Their FR specific books and articles do not include dragon marks, Warforged, Mul, Sorcerer-Pact warlocks, or Clerics of Kord despite being options presented in books.
Forced inclusion of dragonborn, radical changes to genasi, radical changes to tieflings, radical changes to Eladrin, changing the cosmology to fit core, etc.
4e getting a bad rap isn't entirely unjustified.
I was under the impression that the earlier types of Genasi and Tieflings are still around. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4469 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 22:56:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Also, 4E gets a bad rap for making all the mechanics "core" in their design philosophy but that has never really hampered the Realms "officially". Their FR specific books and articles do not include dragon marks, Warforged, Mul, Sorcerer-Pact warlocks, or Clerics of Kord despite being options presented in books.
Forced inclusion of dragonborn, radical changes to genasi, radical changes to tieflings, radical changes to Eladrin, changing the cosmology to fit core, etc.
4e getting a bad rap isn't entirely unjustified.
I was under the impression that the earlier types of Genasi and Tieflings are still around.
They are, and I think most Tieflings in 4E are a range between the slight hints of demonic blood in their description from pre-4e up to almost full-blown near demon like The Prince of Darkness in Legend |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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New information on the sundering revealed
