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Athanatos
Acolyte
2 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 06:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Bringing back the Blood War is a good sign, letīs hope it causes Asmodeus to concentrate back on planar matters and not put his nose in the Realms like in 4e. Yes i did not like him becoming a god.
As the ruler of Baator he neither needed to become a deity, nor should he have even been remotely concerned about becoming a deity. Making him one in 4e grossly contradicted planar lore on the topic, but it was hardly the most egregious retcon that took place (archons, eladrin, entire planes and their inhabitants vanishing as if they'd never existed, all tieflings all of sudden becoming diabolic and all looking alike, etc).
It's a mess that IMO can only be easily restored to order by retconning a number of those 4e changes and explaining away or rationalizing some others with additional information in 5e. Planar continuity w/regards to FR is quite convoluted at this point, with a number of mutually exclusive pieces of lore clashing.
Ideally we'd go back to FR as part of the Great Wheel, but I doubt that I'll have that wish granted. But I can still wish. :)
The Great Wheel didn't really cover things completely either. And as for retconning 4th Edition changes? Shar stole toril lol. Ala Dragonlance lol |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 13:49:37
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The one thing I think 4E did right about the planes was to make them finite. Having these rulers of infinitely sized planes that were worried about conquering an infinitely sized material plane might have made sense in 1st edition and 2nd edition (and I always found it odd that beings could rule an entire INFINITE plane). However, come 3rd edition where each prime has its own astral, its own nine hells, etc.... (granted it was strongly hinted that you could go from one astral to "other astrals" and thereby get to other outer planes) then these outer planes being infinite in size kind of didn't make sense anymore. Now, what exactly happened between 2nd edition and 3rd edition exactly to split out the planes like this... we know Vecna did something to explain it, but no real explanation. It seems to have duplicated certain inner and outer planes (the nine hells, the abyss, the seven heavens, the elemental planes, etc...) in relation to certain primes including its rulers in certain instances. From this, I'm purely playing a guessing game here, but I'm going to guess that he only affected the planes of Greyhawk and Toril and maybe Krynn.... which kind of makes a perverse kind of sense based on the following from the original spelljammer.
"The spheres containing Toril, Oerth, and Krynn form a stable triangle. Travel is possible in both directions between Toril and Oerth and between Oerth and Krynn."
Perhaps the outer planes of "most" other Crystal Spheres were actually finite in size, had their own astral which linked to the other astrals, and the berks that visited Sigil were just unable to figure out the actual jumble of it because its so much bigger and complex than even what they had dreamed up to cover it.
Anyway, perhaps Vecna's ritual in fact copied the nine hells, the abyss, the seven heavens, etc... and in fact, maybe during 3rd edition WE had it wrong and they were in fact now finite in size, but in the short 14 years between 1371 to 1385 WE didn't realize it. I assume that Vecna's spell basically affected the minds of all in Realmspace that they also didn't realize that all of this happened (kind of like the spell that made everyone forget Orcus).
So, how does this help us? Well, why the hell was Lolth attempting to pull her realm out of the abyss? Maybe she realized what had happened, being a goddess already. Maybe this duplication had actually done something to her and she had to take the time to recombine her personae? It would fit the timeline as well, since she performed her disappearing act and return with a newly formed plane at the start of 3rd edition.
How also does this maybe explain some things? Well, everyone is like "why did Asmodeus need to become a god?". Maybe Vecna's spell also affected him, duplicating and lessening his power as well. Maybe his attaining of the divine spark enabled him to either regain his former power level and/or recombine his former selves (personally, I'd only go with the former and have the Asmodeus of realmspace and the Asmodeus of Greyhawk be different... but since both became gods, I think that would be a retcon).
How else might this explain things? Well, if Vecna's spell basically sent Greyhawk's, Toril's, and Krynn's crystal sphere's flying in the phlogiston (akin to marbles or pool balls) maybe this jarring also somehow brought Abeir and Toril back into coterminus phase.
Anyway, just thoughts, you can spin it how you want. Feel free to refute holes in it, as I didn't do a lot of research. It just came to me and I figured I'd put it to paper before it left. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 13:52:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Letīs vote for Shemmy as planar continuity guardian for 5e Realms.
You have my support demanding a return to the days when Sigil was the center and the planes around it interacted and all things got their place in the greater picture. I didnīt like the planar retcons forced on the realms by the points of light approach or the streamlining of planar creatures to fit a certain agenda. It took away much flair and left it a road with many holes in it.
They still owe us the explanation what happened with a certain demon lord of sexually tempting winged women when all her workforce suddenly becomes baatezu (a prime example of sloppy design).
I suggest you read the Godborn except on Mephistos in the FR books section. That is all I'll say about that so I don't spoil anything.
Oh and if one want to know why teiflings changed to become more devilish read Erin Evan's books. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 13:53:16
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| Was the source of the rumour ever revealed? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 13:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The one thing I think 4E did right about the planes was to make them finite. Having these rulers of infinitely sized planes that were worried about conquering an infinitely sized material plane might have made sense in 1st edition and 2nd edition (and I always found it odd that beings could rule an entire INFINITE plane). However, come 3rd edition where each prime has its own astral, its own nine hells, etc.... (granted it was strongly hinted that you could go from one astral to "other astrals" and thereby get to other outer planes) then these outer planes being infinite in size kind of didn't make sense anymore. Now, what exactly happened between 2nd edition and 3rd edition exactly to split out the planes like this... we know Vecna did something to explain it, but no real explanation. It seems to have duplicated certain inner and outer planes (the nine hells, the abyss, the seven heavens, the elemental planes, etc...) in relation to certain primes including its rulers in certain instances. From this, I'm purely playing a guessing game here, but I'm going to guess that he only affected the planes of Greyhawk and Toril and maybe Krynn.... which kind of makes a perverse kind of sense based on the following from the original spelljammer.
"The spheres containing Toril, Oerth, and Krynn form a stable triangle. Travel is possible in both directions between Toril and Oerth and between Oerth and Krynn."
Perhaps the outer planes of "most" other Crystal Spheres were actually finite in size, had their own astral which linked to the other astrals, and the berks that visited Sigil were just unable to figure out the actual jumble of it because its so much bigger and complex than even what they had dreamed up to cover it.
Anyway, perhaps Vecna's ritual in fact copied the nine hells, the abyss, the seven heavens, etc... and in fact, maybe during 3rd edition WE had it wrong and they were in fact now finite in size, but in the short 14 years between 1371 to 1385 WE didn't realize it. I assume that Vecna's spell basically affected the minds of all in Realmspace that they also didn't realize that all of this happened (kind of like the spell that made everyone forget Orcus).
So, how does this help us? Well, why the hell was Lolth attempting to pull her realm out of the abyss? Maybe she realized what had happened, being a goddess already. Maybe this duplication had actually done something to her and she had to take the time to recombine her personae? It would fit the timeline as well, since she performed her disappearing act and return with a newly formed plane at the start of 3rd edition.
How also does this maybe explain some things? Well, everyone is like "why did Asmodeus need to become a god?". Maybe Vecna's spell also affected him, duplicating and lessening his power as well. Maybe his attaining of the divine spark enabled him to either regain his former power level and/or recombine his former selves (personally, I'd only go with the former and have the Asmodeus of realmspace and the Asmodeus of Greyhawk be different... but since both became gods, I think that would be a retcon).
How else might this explain things? Well, if Vecna's spell basically sent Greyhawk's, Toril's, and Krynn's crystal sphere's flying in the phlogiston (akin to marbles or pool balls) maybe this jarring also somehow brought Abeir and Toril back into coterminus phase.
Anyway, just thoughts, you can spin it how you want. Feel free to refute holes in it, as I didn't do a lot of research. It just came to me and I figured I'd put it to paper before it left.
Oh, and on all of the above, there may have been 60 other crystal spheres/primes affected by Vecna's spell as well, but maybe other crystal spheres/primes weren't as well (i.e. Eberron, Athas, Ghostwalk, Birthright, etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 15:33:14
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Hmmmm, a nasty little idea popped in my head while I'm cooking. I wanted to put it down while the bacon's cooking.
What if one of the biggest planar lies ever was pulled on us by the Lady of Pain and Vecna's assault was actually on her to a degree. By this I'm saying, what if the Lady of pain was actually a "power" (I'm not saying primordial or god) of say the Phlogiston or Time or something else entirely who managed to create Sigil and interconnect it to certain crystal spheres AND their pertinent outer planes? Lets face it, the Sigilians may have thought they knew the entirety of the universe, but its not like they were turning around and also cruising around the phlogiston on slow moving spelljammers (they were too busy being cool and using portals to zip from one place to another). The spelljamming folks were spending too much time travelling from one place to another to corroborate any data from Sigil. They may have bought into the lie and thereby increased the Lady of Pain's power when in actuality Sigil doesn't connect to all crystal spheres and outer planes (it may still be a major hub, and its still useful as such).
Maybe this is why gods weren't allowed in the city... because they would see through the lie if they were multi-spheric. Maybe they physically couldn't get in because it was a city somehow pulled from the phlogiston or something else weird like that. Maybe overpowers of other Crystal Spheres were similiarly blocked from influencing it for the same reason. Now I come back to something I wrote a while back... maybe Ao needed someone who could see through lies, ferret out secrets, hide behind a veil of illusions, etc.... to infiltrate Sigil for him. So, maybe he has Leira fake her own death (maybe even in coordination somewhat with Mask). Leira uncovers the lie that the Lady of Pain is spreading, but she can't do anything about it because she's given up so much power and/or because to recover her divine power means she can't do anything at all except through her worshippers.... many of whom she's lost to Cyric. So, maybe Leira helps Vecna see the threat of the Lady of Pain (maybe she doesn't reveal herself even, she just leaves the clues and he puts them together). Vecna has uncovered a great secret and works a spell to sunder the web created by the Lady of Pain, earning the gratitude of the overpower of Greyhawk, who makes Vecna a god of Secrets.
This of course is all on a grand scale that the average adventuring party isn't going to see. Its even so big that gods themselves may have problems seeing it. However, to me, it makes a really interesting story that planescape folks and spelljammer folks alike may enjoy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 15:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I agree with this, but then again I liked pact magic, and besides, isn't that techniquily what a warlock is doing anyway.
Yep, I've never liked the archdevils and demon lords/princes as deities either. My view was that you could worship them or seek their favour and through "pacts" they could grant you spells - no game rules attached otherthan to perhaps specify just what spells they granted. Of course, this would spawn a myriad of discussions as to "how" they could grant spells if they aren't deities with a thousand people telling you they can't, another thousand people telling you they can, and a further thousand telling you they can't but they can if ...
Given a devil/demon worshipper with cleric spells would be an NPC/monster does it really matter? Not in my Realms.
-- George Krashos
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 17:03:12
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So, I'm just following up on the thread my mind is going down right now, so I went to reread roughly what was occurring in "Die! Vecna Die!". Basically, he created several epic tablets. The spell contained allows a demi-god to absorb the power of another demi-god. However, there is a lie in the tablet (hmmm, Leira? Maybe, could be pushing it) that makes it such that the reader doesn't realize that he's the one giving up the power. Vecna (who at the time is trapped in Ravenloft) absorbs Iuz's power and being in a transitional phase towards full godhood shoehorns his way into Sigil utilizing his power as a lord of Ravenloft (destroying his domain in the process).
This from Die! Vecna Die!
"Though he stole the power of another god, luz, to catalyze his own full ascension, Vecna's power waxed over a period of timeat the moment he stepped into Sigil, he wasn't strictly a demigod or a god. Moreover, Vecna didn't use a portal created by Sigil's protector, the Lady of Pain, to enter the city. Instead, he used his unique position as a waxing power in the Demiplane of Dread. Taking advantage of its unique properties, Vecna warped, twisted, and forced the entire plane into a wholly new configuration. That temporary contortion was the funnel that punched a doorway for Vecna into the Sigil. After all, as a student of the Serpent knows, Sigil is the founding stone of the multiverse, upon which the current planar structure is built and buttressed."
also this
"Vecna is compromised because, though he approaches true godhood, his ability to channel power remains limited by his position in Sigil. He can't summon limitless minions due to the ward against planar travel to and from the city, and most of the constant portals are inoperative. Moreover, he must continue to exert a large portion of his total power to remain in Sigil at all, due to the constant pressure the Lady of Pain applies. (The Lady appropriately bestows this pressure in the form of hideous agony, which Vecna constantly neutralizes with a counterflow of his own power.)"
then this for the repercussions of his actions
"Even with Vecna's removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna's time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed, and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again."
Just some thoughts, was the plane of shadow considered an inner plane back then? The whole mention of "half-worlds" too could have some spin put on it with "Abeir" and "Toril" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2013 : 18:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'll be casting my vote against Shemmy, I'm afraid. While I'm often impressed by her knowledge of planar lore of previous editions, the simple fact is that regardless of continuity, I think 4e did it better. I enjoyed the 4e lore more-so than what was there before. <snip>
First, I'm pretty sure Shemmy is a guy (I made that mistake myself a long time ago).
Second, The Great Wheel was the default D&D cosmology since the beginning - what 4e did was a retcon. This can only be fixed with a re-retcon (or some major-league fanoodling). You are in support of a series of retcons that drove most of D&D's fanbase into the arms of Paizo. Fine, lets continue down that path. Why allow D&D to die a slow death? I am all for hastening it's demise (to put it out of it's misery).
Third, Shemmy is THE expert of ALL THINGS PLANER, regardless of edition, and regardless of present company (in the corporate sense). Things can only get better with him in charge of that aspect... he could probably even find a way to merge the old with the new, with as few 'cracks' as possible (and would probably gladly do so if called upon). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2013 03:26:19 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2013 : 00:37:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'll be casting my vote against Shemmy, I'm afraid. While I'm often impressed by her knowledge of planar lore of previous editions, the simple fact is that regardless of continuity, I think 4e did it better. I enjoyed the 4e lore moreso than what was there before. <snip>
Second, The Great Wheel was the defult D&D cosmology since the beginning - what 4e did was a retcon. This can only be fixed with a re-retcon (or some major-league fanoodling).
Actually, for the Realms it's a retcon of a retcon. The Realms hasn't been part of the Great Wheel since 2E. In 3E they gave us the Great Tree, and then in 4E they chopped down the Great Tree to give us... what they gave us.
So, it's not like the 4E retcon of the cosmology was that big of a deal. They had already blew that up.
I still remember the Great Tree vs the Great Wheel arguments. Ahh... those were the days, when the only thing they blew up were the planes.  |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2013 : 02:21:22
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| Source will not be revealed, after the press release got canceled she is to skittish on job security. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2013 : 05:45:48
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Source will not be revealed, after the press release got canceled she is to skittish on job security.
Oh man, maybe you should redact references to their gender. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2013 : 08:16:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'll be casting my vote against Shemmy, I'm afraid. While I'm often impressed by her knowledge of planar lore of previous editions, the simple fact is that regardless of continuity, I think 4e did it better. I enjoyed the 4e lore moreso than what was there before. <snip>
First, I'm pretty sure Shemmy is a guy (I made that mistake myself a long time ago).
Second, The Great Wheel was the defult D&D cosmology since the beginning - what 4e did was a retcon. This can only be fixed with a re-retcon (or some major-league fanoodling). You are in support of a series of retcons that drove most of D&D's fanbase into the arms of Paizo. Fine, lets continue down that path. Why allow D&D to die a slow death? I am all for hastening it's demise (to put it out of it's misery).
Third, Shemmy is THE expert of ALL THINGS PLANER, regardless of edition, and regardless of present company (in the corporate sense). Things can only get better with him in charge of that aspect... he could probably even find a way to merge the old with the new, with as few 'cracks' as possible (and would probably gladly do so if called upon).
To the first, if Shemmy is a guy I apologize for the assumption.
To the second, retcon or otherwise, I simply enjoy 4e's cosmology better than the previous models. I like the concept of a realm for the divine and a realm for the primal, a separation of the anthropomorphic gods and the primordial...primordials. The idea of one big elemental plane as opposed to four separate ones is something I liked.
I could go on, but more to the point, I don't think retconning back is going to help the problem. People who left because of the change aren't going to come back just because the planes get put back on a wheel. Those who have gone to pathfinder are going to stick with pathfinder. All changing it back will do is drive off those who enjoy 4e.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2013 : 08:32:10
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Maybe for a d&d as a game point of view, but not as a book selling view.
For all pathfinder offers, it still can't do forgotten realms and all the little source books, which folks may still buy up for lore nuggets. For as much as they may hate what happened to Fr, they still want to know what the hell is happening to it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2013 : 18:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'll be casting my vote against Shemmy, I'm afraid. While I'm often impressed by her knowledge of planar lore of previous editions, the simple fact is that regardless of continuity, I think 4e did it better. I enjoyed the 4e lore moreso than what was there before. <snip>
First, I'm pretty sure Shemmy is a guy (I made that mistake myself a long time ago).
Second, The Great Wheel was the defult D&D cosmology since the beginning - what 4e did was a retcon. This can only be fixed with a re-retcon (or some major-league fanoodling). You are in support of a series of retcons that drove most of D&D's fanbase into the arms of Paizo. Fine, lets continue down that path. Why allow D&D to die a slow death? I am all for hastening it's demise (to put it out of it's misery).
Third, Shemmy is THE expert of ALL THINGS PLANER, regardless of edition, and regardless of present company (in the corporate sense). Things can only get better with him in charge of that aspect... he could probably even find a way to merge the old with the new, with as few 'cracks' as possible (and would probably gladly do so if called upon).
To the first, if Shemmy is a guy I apologize for the assumption.
To the second, retcon or otherwise, I simply enjoy 4e's cosmology better than the previous models. I like the concept of a realm for the divine and a realm for the primal, a separation of the anthropomorphic gods and the primordial...primordials. The idea of one big elemental plane as opposed to four separate ones is something I liked.
I could go on, but more to the point, I don't think retconning back is going to help the problem. People who left because of the change aren't going to come back just because the planes get put back on a wheel. Those who have gone to pathfinder are going to stick with pathfinder. All changing it back will do is drive off those who enjoy 4e.
I'll agree on the all elements in one plane being an improvement as well. The previous "all air" "all water" "all earth" "all fire" elemental planes just sucked and prevented anyone who wasn't high level from going to the earth and fire ones at the least. So, yeah, having no finite planes and this mixed elemental plane, good ideas.
BTW, what did they do with the positive and negative planes? I don't recall. Basically, it felt to me like they were trying to make the shadowfell tied to the negative plane to a degree. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2013 : 07:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'll be casting my vote against Shemmy, I'm afraid. While I'm often impressed by her knowledge of planar lore of previous editions, the simple fact is that regardless of continuity, I think 4e did it better. I enjoyed the 4e lore moreso than what was there before. <snip>
First, I'm pretty sure Shemmy is a guy (I made that mistake myself a long time ago).
Second, The Great Wheel was the defult D&D cosmology since the beginning - what 4e did was a retcon. This can only be fixed with a re-retcon (or some major-league fanoodling). You are in support of a series of retcons that drove most of D&D's fanbase into the arms of Paizo. Fine, lets continue down that path. Why allow D&D to die a slow death? I am all for hastening it's demise (to put it out of it's misery).
Third, Shemmy is THE expert of ALL THINGS PLANER, regardless of edition, and regardless of present company (in the corporate sense). Things can only get better with him in charge of that aspect... he could probably even find a way to merge the old with the new, with as few 'cracks' as possible (and would probably gladly do so if called upon).
To the first, if Shemmy is a guy I apologize for the assumption.
To the second, retcon or otherwise, I simply enjoy 4e's cosmology better than the previous models. I like the concept of a realm for the divine and a realm for the primal, a separation of the anthropomorphic gods and the primordial...primordials. The idea of one big elemental plane as opposed to four separate ones is something I liked.
I could go on, but more to the point, I don't think retconning back is going to help the problem. People who left because of the change aren't going to come back just because the planes get put back on a wheel. Those who have gone to pathfinder are going to stick with pathfinder. All changing it back will do is drive off those who enjoy 4e.
I'll agree on the all elements in one plane being an improvement as well. The previous "all air" "all water" "all earth" "all fire" elemental planes just sucked and prevented anyone who wasn't high level from going to the earth and fire ones at the least. So, yeah, having no finite planes and this mixed elemental plane, good ideas.
BTW, what did they do with the positive and negative planes? I don't recall. Basically, it felt to me like they were trying to make the shadowfell tied to the negative plane to a degree.
Seems to me the implication was that the astral sea was essentially the positive energy plane and that radiant energy was the new positive as opposed to the Shadowfell's necrotic "negative" energy. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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The Madmage
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2013 : 20:49:47
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My view of the change from the Great Wheel to the Great Tree from 2E to 3E was purely a cosmetic one. It was a Faeruncentric view that Toril was at the centre of the multiverse; a view common to most "clueless" primes with respect to their own worlds. Greyhawk "got it right" purely because of the lore of that world was more heavily influenced by interaction with outsiders (mostly fiends). The names of the plains were different because of multiple reasons:
1) It was the description of the region where the Gods of Faerun dwelt on that plane. Like thinking the Sahara desert was the entirety of Africa if you didn't know any better.
2) The name given to the plane by the Faerunian that discovered it or by consensus of the sages/scholars.
3) Divine mandate that is later spread to those of that world.
4) More evocative or descriptive names of the plane(s) in question.
Regarding the inner i.e. elemental planes, it was possible in Planescape to travel from one to the other (bypassing or going through the quasi or para elemental planes) via more mundane means than portal hopping. There were some areas that were hospitable to non-elemental creatures although granted they were few.
Did Planescape have "holes"? Yes, but the planes were a concept and the holes are purposefully unexplained as a mystery of the multiverse. You don't always need to have a detailed explanation of everything because once you do, it quells imagination and creativity. The infinite nature of the planes allowed DMs to create whatever they wanted. Making planes finite is just limiting yourself. Going forward into D&D Next (or whatever they end up calling it), I sincerely hope they return to a Great Wheel inspired cosmology. There's multitudes of back material created throughout the years of D&D that can be called upon. From a monetary perspective, it allows WOTC to cut costs on development when they can fall back and either re-publish or re-use old content. It makes the transition for older players easier or hearkens back to those that left the game.
As for 4th edition, as much as I'd like for most of it to never have happened from a FR perspective, it did and we have to go forward with it. Personally, I'd just put it threw a paper shredder and keep a few elements that were interesting.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 03:39:18
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The easiest way to rectify it all is to say No-one knows the real truth, not even the gods. This is basically what Ed has been saying all along.
There really never was a retcon; what all that was was the latest 'theory' about the universe, who's in charge of what, and how its all connected. The gods all have a great big laugh at mortals who try to map it all out, because it is forever changing, and not just moving forward - it changes because things in the past get altered as well (so two different 'pasts' can both be correct). The gods themselves can barely understand 'the now' of it all, and even they aren't privy to the 'deeper rules' the universe works by. The Primordials may know a bit more, and the beings above and beyond them even more, but no-one knows the whole truth, and certainly not any group of mortals. Some may make lucky guesses and come close to the current reality of things, but by tomorrow (or five minutes from now) it's no longer relevant.
'The Truth' is different from world to world, and even from society to society, because how we interpret what our senses are telling us about how it all works is filtered through our preconceptions. The god/plane/'magical conduit'/etc that you see may not be the same as what your friend next to you is seeing, or anyone else for that matter.
So, each edition presents us with a universal model (cosmology) as to how the folks of the current era (of that particular setting) generally think things work, and the specifics vary from faith to faith, and from region to region. It is real for them, because they believe in it, even if it is very different from what they believed just a century ago. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2013 03:42:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 05:03:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The easiest way to rectify it all is to say No-one knows the real truth, not even the gods. This is basically what Ed has been saying all along.
There really never was a retcon; what all that was was the latest 'theory' about the universe, who's in charge of what, and how its all connected. The gods all have a great big laugh at mortals who try to map it all out, because it is forever changing, and not just moving forward - it changes because things in the past get altered as well (so two different 'pasts' can both be correct). The gods themselves can barely understand 'the now' of it all, and even they aren't privy to the 'deeper rules' the universe works by. The Primordials may know a bit more, and the beings above and beyond them even more, but no-one knows the whole truth, and certainly not any group of mortals. Some may make lucky guesses and come close to the current reality of things, but by tomorrow (or five minutes from now) it's no longer relevant.
'The Truth' is different from world to world, and even from society to society, because how we interpret what our senses are telling us about how it all works is filtered through our preconceptions. The god/plane/'magical conduit'/etc that you see may not be the same as what your friend next to you is seeing, or anyone else for that matter.
So, each edition presents us with a universal model (cosmology) as to how the folks of the current era (of that particular setting) generally think things work, and the specifics vary from faith to faith, and from region to region. It is real for them, because they believe in it, even if it is very different from what they believed just a century ago.
I would argue the point about there not being a retcon. When one edition says that it's not possible to go from Plane A directly to Plane B, even though it was done before, that's a retcon. When entire planes -- like the 4 elemental planes -- suddenly cease to exist, that's a retcon. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 05:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'll be casting my vote against Shemmy, I'm afraid. While I'm often impressed by her knowledge of planar lore of previous editions, the simple fact is that regardless of continuity, I think 4e did it better. I enjoyed the 4e lore moreso than what was there before. <snip>
First, I'm pretty sure Shemmy is a guy (I made that mistake myself a long time ago).
Second, The Great Wheel was the defult D&D cosmology since the beginning - what 4e did was a retcon. This can only be fixed with a re-retcon (or some major-league fanoodling). You are in support of a series of retcons that drove most of D&D's fanbase into the arms of Paizo. Fine, lets continue down that path. Why allow D&D to die a slow death? I am all for hastening it's demise (to put it out of it's misery).
Third, Shemmy is THE expert of ALL THINGS PLANER, regardless of edition, and regardless of present company (in the corporate sense). Things can only get better with him in charge of that aspect... he could probably even find a way to merge the old with the new, with as few 'cracks' as possible (and would probably gladly do so if called upon).
To the first, if Shemmy is a guy I apologize for the assumption.
To the second, retcon or otherwise, I simply enjoy 4e's cosmology better than the previous models. I like the concept of a realm for the divine and a realm for the primal, a separation of the anthropomorphic gods and the primordial...primordials. The idea of one big elemental plane as opposed to four separate ones is something I liked.
I could go on, but more to the point, I don't think retconning back is going to help the problem. People who left because of the change aren't going to come back just because the planes get put back on a wheel. Those who have gone to pathfinder are going to stick with pathfinder. All changing it back will do is drive off those who enjoy 4e.
I'll agree on the all elements in one plane being an improvement as well. The previous "all air" "all water" "all earth" "all fire" elemental planes just sucked and prevented anyone who wasn't high level from going to the earth and fire ones at the least. So, yeah, having no finite planes and this mixed elemental plane, good ideas.
I very strongly dislike rolling all the elemental planes into one. That's the Prime Material Plane -- a place where fire and earth and air and water all coexist. Rolling all the elemental planes all into one just makes it another Prime, with more emphasis on the ingredients themselves, as opposed to the overall mixture.
Plus, with the planes being based on concepts, it makes sense to have discrete planes based on the "prime" elements of creation. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 16:14:25
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As for the 'retcon' thing, I'm surprised you didn't site the most notable examples, like Eladrin and sucubi. Those are why I put in the part about "even the past gets changed". What was once true may no longer be true, when major changes get made to the cosmos.
As for why you can't get from Plane A to Plane B anymore, that's simple - the rules have changed (both in the literal, D&D sense, and also in the 'rules of the universe' sense). Not only can't certain things be done anymore, but when the rules change people's perceptions also change, such that they don't even remember what it used to be like (I site the specific example of the Domains of Dread - Ravenloft).
As for the Elemental planes, I thought that was explained: The Maelstrom is the natural state of the universe, and the Elemental planes was an artificial ordering fostered upon it... something done around the time of the Godwar. What we have here is the universe simply 'snapping back' to its original state (at least, a part of it... the whole thing was probably the Maelstrom, like Nifleheim - of Nordic myth - and the Ginnungagap). The cosmology emerged from that 'primordial soup' (probably by the will of the 'Elder gods', or whatever you want to call the proto-Primordials).
At least, I remember that from discussions. At this point, I am not sure how much was conjecture, and how much was actually derived from 4e sources. 
By the same token, we can just as easily say it comes down to human perception again, and how much we can handle. Suppose the Maelstrom is (theoretically) limitless, and the folks of Toril (or wherever) are connected to parts of it via pre-built conduits... which just happen to lead to VAST fields of specific material within the maelstrom. What may appear as just minor 'motes' floating within the maelstrom in the great scheme of things could be far larger then a solar system... and therefor incomprehensible as a 'small bit' of something else to humans journeying there. If a mortal did happen to find themselves near the edge of the elemental mote, they could just think they are at the boundary of the (elemental) plane itself, and looking into a quasi or psuedo elemental plane on the other side.
Thus, ever portal/Gate that ever lead into the elemental planes really just lead to a small bit of it, but humans would have no way of perceiving anything beyond it.
EVERYTHING can be rectified (even the Eladrin) - the real problem with 4th edition is that they didn't even bother to try. As players of a game, we didn't need logic, but as fans of the setting, we live for that crap. We crave answers, and we weren't getting any. We've had several threads dedicated to solving just these sorts of problems. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2013 18:00:43 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 16:51:16
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| I vote to return to 1E/2E cosmology or, failing that, at least 3E. Planescape, while occasionally hokey, was my favorite treatment of the planes. Oh, and I concur with Wooley, PLEASE bring back the FOUR elemental planes! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 17:06:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the 'retcon' thing, I'm surprised you didn't site the most notable examples, like Eladrin and sucubi. Those are why I put in the part about "even the past gets changed". What was once true may no longer be true, when major changes get made to the cosmos.
As for why you can't get from Plane A to Plane B anymore, that's simple - the rules have changed (both in the literal, D&D sense, and also in the 'rules of the universe' sense). Not only can't certain things be done anymore, but when the rules change people's perceptions also change, such that they don't even remember what it used to be like (I site the specific example of the Domains of Dread - Ravenloft).
As for the Elemental planes, I thought that was explained: The Maelstrom is the natural state of the universe, and the Elemental planes was an artificial ordering fostered upon it... something done around the time of the Godwar. What we have here is the universe simply 'snapping back' to its original state (at least, a part of it... the whole thing was probably the Maelstrom, like Nifleheim - of Nordic myth - and the Ginnungagap). The cosmology emerged from that (probably by the will of the 'Elder gods', or whatever you want to call the proto-Primordials).
At east, I remember that from discussions. At this point, I am not sure how much was conjecture, and how much was actually derived from 4e sources.
By the same token, we can just as easily say it comes down to human perception again, and how much we can handle. Suppose the Maelstrom is (theoretically) limitless, and the folks of Toril (or wherever) are connected to parts of it via pre-built conduits... which just happen to lead to VAST fields of specific material within the maelstrom. What may appear as just minor 'motes' floating within the maelstrom in the great scheme of things could be far larger then a solar system... and therefor incomprehensible as a 'small bit' of something else to humans journeying there. If a mortal did happen to find themselves near the edge of the elemental mote, they could just think they are at the boundary of the (elemental) plane itself, and looking into a quasi or psuedo elemental plane on the other side.
Thus, ever portal/Gate that ever lead into the elemental planes really just lead to a small bit of it, but humans would have no way of perceiving anything beyond it.
EVERYTHING can be rectified (even the Eladrin) - the real problem with 4th edition is that they didn't even bother to try. As players of a game, we didn't need logic, but as fans of the setting, we live for that crap. We crave answers, and we weren't getting any. We've had several threads dedicated to solving just these sorts of problems.
Some of those "rules" changed in 3E, when the only explanation we ever got was "it's always been this way, it's just that nobody knew about it." When something that was possible before suddenly becomes impossible and we're told it's always been that way, that's a retcon.
I don't accept the "perception" explanation for the elemental planes, either -- unless you're also going to tell me that not one elemental inhabitant ever mentioned the true nature of the place to any planeshopper, no one ever wrote it down, no planeshoppers ever traveled far enough to note this themselves, and no planeshopper ever noticed that trying to get to the elemental plane of water was the exact same process as going to the elemental plane of fire.
You can say the structure of the planes is based on perception, but you can't use that explanation for unexplained changes to the planes themselves, or to the methods used to transit them. |
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The Madmage
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 19:28:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some of those "rules" changed in 3E, when the only explanation we ever got was "it's always been this way, it's just that nobody knew about it." When something that was possible before suddenly becomes impossible and we're told it's always been that way, that's a retcon.
I don't accept the "perception" explanation for the elemental planes, either -- unless you're also going to tell me that not one elemental inhabitant ever mentioned the true nature of the place to any planeshopper, no one ever wrote it down, no planeshoppers ever traveled far enough to note this themselves, and no planeshopper ever noticed that trying to get to the elemental plane of water was the exact same process as going to the elemental plane of fire.
You can say the structure of the planes is based on perception, but you can't use that explanation for unexplained changes to the planes themselves, or to the methods used to transit them.
By the same token, why would a creature of the elemental plane, or any other plane, tell a prime material planes-hopper how things work? What would they have to gain by doing so? Knowledge in many ways is power. Such information would be guarded closely and not exchanged freely. If the cost was steep enough for a mortal to learn it, one would then imagine that the likelihood the mortal would guard these secrets for themselves to be all the greater.
My interpretation of the Planescape setting vis ā vis the Prime Material Plane was that the Outer planes were places of higher existence which is why the only surefire way to reach them for a mortal was death. The character's soul would thus ascend to the next level of existence.
For the above reasons, I never sympathized with the need to simplify the cosmology of D&D. If your players or campaign are going to delve into planar jaunts, why deny yourself adventure hooks of finding lore or portals to the planes? On the other hand, if your players aren't interested in it, then you don't need the simplified explanation! It's an optional aspect of the game world that caters to those that appreciate the intricacies of the multiverse and its complexities. Why turn it into fast food consumption? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 20:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Madmage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some of those "rules" changed in 3E, when the only explanation we ever got was "it's always been this way, it's just that nobody knew about it." When something that was possible before suddenly becomes impossible and we're told it's always been that way, that's a retcon.
I don't accept the "perception" explanation for the elemental planes, either -- unless you're also going to tell me that not one elemental inhabitant ever mentioned the true nature of the place to any planeshopper, no one ever wrote it down, no planeshoppers ever traveled far enough to note this themselves, and no planeshopper ever noticed that trying to get to the elemental plane of water was the exact same process as going to the elemental plane of fire.
You can say the structure of the planes is based on perception, but you can't use that explanation for unexplained changes to the planes themselves, or to the methods used to transit them.
By the same token, why would a creature of the elemental plane, or any other plane, tell a prime material planes-hopper how things work? What would they have to gain by doing so? Knowledge in many ways is power. Such information would be guarded closely and not exchanged freely. If the cost was steep enough for a mortal to learn it, one would then imagine that the likelihood the mortal would guard these secrets for themselves to be all the greater.
Why would there be a need to guard information that could be readily gained at no harm to anyone?
Besides, even if that was a factor, mages have been summoning and compelling planar entities practically since magic was invented.
Even if, for some unfathomable reason, every single elemental entity was sworn to secrecy about the nature of their home plane, that information could still be forced from them. And that again assumes no planeshopper ever traveled beyond the point of arrival or noticed that all of the elemental planes were accessed the exact same way.
It's just not logical to assume that information about a widely-traveled and easily accessible plane could be hidden. People travel. People talk. The word would get out. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 22:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'll be casting my vote against Shemmy, I'm afraid. While I'm often impressed by her knowledge of planar lore of previous editions, the simple fact is that regardless of continuity, I think 4e did it better. I enjoyed the 4e lore moreso than what was there before. <snip>
First, I'm pretty sure Shemmy is a guy (I made that mistake myself a long time ago).
Second, The Great Wheel was the defult D&D cosmology since the beginning - what 4e did was a retcon. This can only be fixed with a re-retcon (or some major-league fanoodling). You are in support of a series of retcons that drove most of D&D's fanbase into the arms of Paizo. Fine, lets continue down that path. Why allow D&D to die a slow death? I am all for hastening it's demise (to put it out of it's misery).
Third, Shemmy is THE expert of ALL THINGS PLANER, regardless of edition, and regardless of present company (in the corporate sense). Things can only get better with him in charge of that aspect... he could probably even find a way to merge the old with the new, with as few 'cracks' as possible (and would probably gladly do so if called upon).
To the first, if Shemmy is a guy I apologize for the assumption.
To the second, retcon or otherwise, I simply enjoy 4e's cosmology better than the previous models. I like the concept of a realm for the divine and a realm for the primal, a separation of the anthropomorphic gods and the primordial...primordials. The idea of one big elemental plane as opposed to four separate ones is something I liked.
I could go on, but more to the point, I don't think retconning back is going to help the problem. People who left because of the change aren't going to come back just because the planes get put back on a wheel. Those who have gone to pathfinder are going to stick with pathfinder. All changing it back will do is drive off those who enjoy 4e.
I'll agree on the all elements in one plane being an improvement as well. The previous "all air" "all water" "all earth" "all fire" elemental planes just sucked and prevented anyone who wasn't high level from going to the earth and fire ones at the least. So, yeah, having no finite planes and this mixed elemental plane, good ideas.
I very strongly dislike rolling all the elemental planes into one. That's the Prime Material Plane -- a place where fire and earth and air and water all coexist. Rolling all the elemental planes all into one just makes it another Prime, with more emphasis on the ingredients themselves, as opposed to the overall mixture.
Plus, with the planes being based on concepts, it makes sense to have discrete planes based on the "prime" elements of creation.
One of the the problems with it in the old way was your enemy could (just as a for instance) send you to certain planes and pretty much without a doubt know you'd be insta-dead and your body either lost or permanently destroyed (for instance, sending someone to the elemental plane of fire, earth, or the negative or positive energy planes).
Another problem was simply moving in some of these planes. Being dropped in the elemental plane of earth put you somewhere with nowhere to walk and nothing to breathe....
Now, with this "mixture" you can still have areas dominated by another element (for instance, near the city of brass, maybe its all lava and trees made of fire and superheated air and steam), OR you can have just some odd juxtaposition that changes on its own. In fact, I'd tie the inner planes and limbo.... and on the other side of limbo, the far realms. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 22:51:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One of the the problems with it in the old way was your enemy could (just as a for instance) send you to certain planes and pretty much without a doubt know you'd be insta-dead and your body either lost or permanently destroyed (for instance, sending someone to the elemental plane of fire, earth, or the negative or positive energy planes).
Another problem was simply moving in some of these planes. Being dropped in the elemental plane of earth put you somewhere with nowhere to walk and nothing to breathe....
Now, with this "mixture" you can still have areas dominated by another element (for instance, near the city of brass, maybe its all lava and trees made of fire and superheated air and steam), OR you can have just some odd juxtaposition that changes on its own. In fact, I'd tie the inner planes and limbo.... and on the other side of limbo, the far realms.
That's why planar travel was reserved for high-level folk. Just because a place is dangerous for newbs isn't a good reason for a retcon.
Besides, you don't need planar travel for someone to be stuck in a hostile environ. It'd be far easier for your theoretical baddie to simply drop his enemies into the caldera of the nearest active volcano, or pop them to the bottom of the sea.
I fail to see how one plane with all the elements present is all that different from the Prime, which is one plane with all the elements present. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2013 : 22:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the 'retcon' thing, I'm surprised you didn't site the most notable examples, like Eladrin and sucubi. Those are why I put in the part about "even the past gets changed". What was once true may no longer be true, when major changes get made to the cosmos.
As for why you can't get from Plane A to Plane B anymore, that's simple - the rules have changed (both in the literal, D&D sense, and also in the 'rules of the universe' sense). Not only can't certain things be done anymore, but when the rules change people's perceptions also change, such that they don't even remember what it used to be like (I site the specific example of the Domains of Dread - Ravenloft).
As for the Elemental planes, I thought that was explained: The Maelstrom is the natural state of the universe, and the Elemental planes was an artificial ordering fostered upon it... something done around the time of the Godwar. What we have here is the universe simply 'snapping back' to its original state (at least, a part of it... the whole thing was probably the Maelstrom, like Nifleheim - of Nordic myth - and the Ginnungagap). The cosmology emerged from that 'primordial soup' (probably by the will of the 'Elder gods', or whatever you want to call the proto-Primordials).
At least, I remember that from discussions. At this point, I am not sure how much was conjecture, and how much was actually derived from 4e sources.
By the same token, we can just as easily say it comes down to human perception again, and how much we can handle. Suppose the Maelstrom is (theoretically) limitless, and the folks of Toril (or wherever) are connected to parts of it via pre-built conduits... which just happen to lead to VAST fields of specific material within the maelstrom. What may appear as just minor 'motes' floating within the maelstrom in the great scheme of things could be far larger then a solar system... and therefor incomprehensible as a 'small bit' of something else to humans journeying there. If a mortal did happen to find themselves near the edge of the elemental mote, they could just think they are at the boundary of the (elemental) plane itself, and looking into a quasi or psuedo elemental plane on the other side.
Thus, ever portal/Gate that ever lead into the elemental planes really just lead to a small bit of it, but humans would have no way of perceiving anything beyond it.
EVERYTHING can be rectified (even the Eladrin) - the real problem with 4th edition is that they didn't even bother to try. As players of a game, we didn't need logic, but as fans of the setting, we live for that crap. We crave answers, and we weren't getting any. We've had several threads dedicated to solving just these sorts of problems.
Exactly, everything can be rectified. The question is what makes the game more useful. Having a elemental soup plane as opposed to the 4 doesn't prevent you having sections devoted to certain elements. I would also specify that this elemental plane be one of the few that is actually an infinite plane, but also that its also infinitely changing. Having an area with blobs of water floating beside blobs of ice, trees made of fire, squirrels made of rock living in the tree, and no ground to walk on and an ever changing gravitational pull that brings you into areas with concentrations of hydrogen and no oxygen can prove interesting..... and then you go a mile up the road and its solid earth with rivers of fire and water based flowers that "pop" when you pick them.... that leads up to a few miles of solid rock, metal, and crystals that you need specialized spell just to move a few feet.... well, its definitely unique and nothing like the prime. Its deadly, but its not insta-deadly. You definitely tread warily wherever you go.
On the "we didn't know that's how it was" aspect, I'm in favor of the idea that the Lady of Pain had us all tricked in previous editions and that certain "primes" didn't even have a connection to Sigil or its planar setup. For instance, Eberron with its odd adjacency to its planes. Another example, Abeir. Athas with its own inner planes and the difficulty leaving it could be another candidate (though possibly contradicted by some lore in that instance). I went into some of this in another thread the other day, so I'll stop here with just one addition... what if there's more than one Sigil and each has its own "great wheel" layout and certain crystal spheres leading to it? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 01:27:54
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I'm stuck in the middle. As a long-time D&D DM (I prefer GM), I find a LOT of the 4e lore more useful to me then prior editions. For instance, I would be more interested in running a Waterdeep campaign now - something I had no wish to do in the pre-4e era. Its no longer a 'pristine city', its an actual adventure-site (from my own, personal PoV... YMMV). As a fan of the setting, I absolutely abhor all the changes, just because they were changes, and unnecessary ones at that (because I had no problem running any type of game I wanted in the 'Old Realms', thus I saw no problem with them).
So yeah, I love The Great Wheel - its all I knew for 30 years and it was part of my RPG universe since the beginning (even in its early, limited incarnation). On the other hand, I never used the Elemental Planes because they were too much of a bother. I still have no plans to use them... but now I feel i could, if I wanted to.
I don't know what the big deal is. The maelstrom is the medium the elemental 'nodes' float in, and some of those nodes could be bigger then solar systems, or galaxies even. Would the denizens of one of those even know there was more to it? How many lifetimes would it take for you to traverse something that immense? It could simply be that a mortal - and most outsiders as well - simply couldn't conceive of the vastness of the Elemental maelstrom and all it held.
It also actually solves some old snafus, like "are the planes of one setting the same as the planes of another?" Simple - the chunk of Fire that Torillians used to think was the elemental plane of Fire is not the same as the chunk that Oerth (GH) people usually visit. Both of those are probably so vast as to seem 'endless' to a normal person, and yet, in the chaotic sea of the Maelstrom, they are just two tiny blobs floating amongst the rest.
Thus, everyone WAS in the same plane... they just were so far apart it may as well have been separate elemental planes. At those distances, what would be the difference between the old way of thinking of them, and the new? if you couldn't reach the end of something in a thousand lifetimes, it may as well be infinite.
In a weird way, even Eberron's strange cosmology fits nicely into this model - they just happen to name the individual 'chunks' of Maelstrom they are connected to.
Its almost like how the Phlogiston and Crystal spheres work - maybe there are separate 'bubbles' of each element for each world. Thus, the Maelstrom - the soup it all swims in - is just like the Phlogiston, and those 'elemental bubbles' are just like the worlds they are connected to. How would anyone know the difference? Or maybe every single portal to the plane of fire (in past editions) really all lead to different chunks of fire within the maelstrom; there is just no way of telling (what do you use for landmarks?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2013 01:32:44 |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2013 : 01:50:09
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| I hope they bring back Myrul. The realms need a REAL god of death. Also the races don't need renaming. Elves are elves and dwarves are dwarves. Duergar included. |
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New information on the sundering revealed
