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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 13:12:04
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I recently bought the Midgard campaign setting after seeing a lot of advertisements (I've also been very impressed with Wolfgang Baur's work in Al-Qadim, dungeon, and Dragon). I'm reticent to reserve judgment at present as I've not read through the whole thing. So far, the ley lines system is a simple take-away that I see that can definitely be improved upon for the realms (different topic on that already). I often like reading other campaigns to see what their takes on certain things are and how they might be applied to the realms (which also got me hooked on the Scarred Lands setting for well-written material).
Anyway, I was reading through some of the kingdom entries and getting confused with the god names, so I decided to go to that section and simply start reading about the Pantheon. This is where I see something that may work for Midgard, but reminds me of some talk being heard in the realms. Its something that I think would be pretty disastrous to import. Basically, Midgard's gods have this intricate system of "Masks" for their gods where each god is worshipped under 4 or so different names throughout the world, and there's also contention as to which god is posing as which and which is the TRUE god. It goes so far as to say that Lada in the crossroads might be Baldur in the north, but it also says that Sif in the north might be Lada. There's multiple instances of stuff like this, and its meant to basically keep the players confused and to add some mystery to the religion.
This of course is similar to the Forgotten Realms use of Alias', and I hope beyond hope that this is NOT used in the realms overmuch for the new edition. While I can see this kind of alias/mask usage believable for a tricksterish deity like Leira/Mask/Shar/Lolth etc... I see other deities revealing themselves as their true name in a short time after using a mask such that they keep their sects able to work together (they may continue to accept worship in both names, but they would be clear to their worshippers who they are).
I'm also not against there being multiple deities holding a portfolio, so long as they do indeed further the goals of said portfolio through their mortal worshippers and some sense can be made of the belief. For instance, I wouldn't be against there being Orcus, Velsharoon, Kiaransalee, Myrkul, and maybe even Set all claiming undeath of some form. I also wouldn't mind having 2 or more gods of death (Kelemvor and Osiris), because one would handle the souls that worshipped within pantheon A, the other in pantheon B, with disputes possibly handled randomly (draw a stone from a cup, etc..). The problem comes in when you have deities claiming celestial objects (i.e. the moon and the Sun), and in such instances maybe these deities use Alias' / Mask's.... but I'd rather see these specific issues worked on rather than intermix the entire pantheons in a vast web of "you don't truly know what deity is what".
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2013 : 03:03:50
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I was one who kept mentioning the Midgard masks setup be adapted in some way for the Realms. A disclaimer before I continue, I was a patron of the Midgard CS and a contributor of small bits here and there, including some components of the deity entries. Thus I will be the first to admit an innate heavy bias.
Coming from the Realms as a primary campaign setting experience for the last decade, the Midgard approach to their pantheons initially drove me nuts when I read the developing rough draft. Then it started to make sense the more I looked at it and soon joined in on the fun and insanity.
I think the Realms has already hit the disastrous point you mentioned when 4E came rolling through, ex: Selune/Sehanine, Talos/Gruumsh. Except WotC sort of hand-waved it with “these two gods were the same being all along, deal with it and figure it out.” With the Midgard masks, the interconnectivity was established on purpose and the seeds were planted to maximize conflict and mystery. If the Realms adapted the masks concept, it might turn an editorial mandate that eliminated choices into a system that could open them up a thousandfold.
We hear repeated hints from Ed, mortals and even their servants or proxies don’t know the truth about the deities. In the decades since the Realm’s publication, the deities have been overexposed and act in this monolithic way. The masks do not counter that activity, but adds another layer, more escape clauses for designers and GMs to run with the setting as they wish and still be right. We’ve seen some of this with the aliases. We have some of the heresies hinting at this. The prevalent perspective on FR deities is that they’re monolithic, omnipotent, singular beings. I’d argue that’s been an unfortunate direction to present the Faerunian gods given how they’re used in the novels and meta-plot and the already existing depth of the setting in other areas.
Keep in mind, in the masks system, everyone is right (and everyone is also wrong) depending on who you ask. The true deity to any set of masks is the one you believe to be the true one. A player character knows exactly which deity is which, it’s the deity they worship. The other gods are mere masks of their deity. Those who claim their god is a mask of another foreign deity are blasphemers, plain and simple. I felt the point was stress in the write-ups, even stated in certain entries. Other instances, the language painted the subject of that particular entry in a very exalted light, that tone was chosen on purpose. The pantheons and deities are seen from an ethnocentric point of view that’s commonly centered around a region or culture. Different regions and cultures stress different values and thus different deities come into prominence and others fade into the background. Dark gods in one region are pantheon chiefs in others. It’s not a shot at religion, but it does approximate how faith functions in the real world, especially polytheistic belief systems, and even monotheistic religions since there are several in existence (and we’re not even talking about obscure ones, or smaller denominations).
The masks are not limited to trickers deities and ones claiming dominion over a celestial object does not matter either. There is nothing to say even a lawful good deity would “out” all of their masks for the sake of cooperation. Gods have their secrets too, perhaps they need the masks for another purpose, the greater good. That is provided the masks even know which is which. To each of them, they are the true deity. To their own believers and worshipers, they are the one true version. A LG god in one pantheon may appear as an LE deity to another. In Midgard, sometimes this happens within a single pantheon, though Wolfgang made it a point to avoid absolute alignments if possible.
The great thing about overlapping portfolios, besides creating overarching conflict, is that in the Pathfinder system there are sub-domains. Two deities could share the same domain, representing similar portfolios, but could potentially have clerics who manifest different spells and powers via the sub-domains. Again, this can happen within the same pantheon. Even different sects of a deity’s religion can focus on this or that sub-domain, Midgard has that too. Throw in heresies, dark gods, actual worship of masks, and certain gods having complex system of sainthoods and it’s a kaleidoscopic potpourri. It’s there ever-present in the background. You could poke through it, stir it up if you want a stronger sense of it. Stare at it too long and your head might hurt, but it’s enthralling nonetheless. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2013 : 03:18:16
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My head hurt reading this.
so do to that fact alone, am going to say No, to whatever your suggesting. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2013 : 10:12:14
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>>I think the Realms has already hit the disastrous point you mentioned when 4E came rolling through, ex: Selune/Sehanine, Talos/Gruumsh.
Selune/Sehanine is one of the few examples I mention where there's a problem (i.e. Celestial bodies). There was no problem with Talos and Gruumsh. Hell, the two had nothing to do with one another. One was the god of destruction, the other the racial god of orcs. Both could fit equally well in the realms.
As to it improving the realms... I only see conflict and arguments as the potential future. It sounds cool, but the market for the realms is not the market looking for the mysteries you are talking about in my experience. There's plenty of game worlds out there if you're looking for uncertainty about what's going on. People don't go to the realms for that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 03:59:27
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I'm not sure what problem there could be since Selune and Sehanine are now more strongly linked than they were in previous eras. There will be no retcon back to the way things were in previous editions, this is a way of moving forward with the concept already started during the 4E Realms.
There's a lot of conflict and arguments about the setting as it stands and even from before the 4E era, and likely will continue into the 5E version and beyond. From my experience and anecdotal observation the Realms lacking apparent mystery and ambiguity is one of the major negatives held against it in some circles.
This is nothing entirely new to the Realms as it started publication with unreliable narrators and over the decades that voice has been stripped from published Realms material. There are ways to modify the presentation of the setting to mitigate the problems of a monolithic narrator, the masks system is only one way, but I think it's a valid tool in the box. Perhaps it shouldn't be a standard for the Realms, but good strategic use of it can integrate existing heresies, sects, orders and aliases with greater interaction.
Understand this is only an alteration of how some people see the gods. The gods themselves, the archetypes they represent, will still exist in a functional and familiar form where it makes no difference to the characters worshiping them. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 31 Mar 2013 04:24:02 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 15:43:27
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| My worry is more with the depth that they took the masks in midgard, not the idea of masks themselves (because we already had aliases). Lets just take undead for instance, it should be acceptable that there is more than one god who has a strong affinity to undead. I wouldn't want it to be that "Velsharoon, Kiaransalee, Myrkul, and Orcus are all the same being, just people are misinterpreting them". I'd in fact rather it be that all 4 of them exist, and they don't freaking like one another and actively have their flocks working against one another to try to make their god the pre-eminent god of undeath. If it were the same being, I just can't buy there being the animosity like I'm describing. Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem if they brought back both Bane and Iyachtu Xvim and set the two tyrannical religions at odds. Similarly, I could see there being multiple gods of justice, maybe skewed to different viewpoints (one compassionate aimed at rehabilitation, one more balancing the scales). We were told that gods were coming back.... does that only mean Mystra, or will we see beings like Talos also return? What about the gods of Mulhorand (will we suddenly find out that Amaunator is now Horus-Re, Kelemvor is Osiris, Thoth is Mystra, Tempus is Anhur, Isis is Chauntea, Nepthys is Waukeen, etc....)? I hope not. I'm hoping to see actual returning of a lot of gods for the plot reasons, but with their return I'm not hoping to find out they're all just alias' of one another. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 04:09:15
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I think you're conflating the concept of Masks with FR's existing Aliases. In FR we know Shar killed Ibrandul during the ToT and is using his name as an Alias. It's a cut and dry fact stated in the books. Shar can later reveal what she's been doing the whole time and laugh at the poor misguided followers of Ibrandul. That is not what happens with Midgard's Masks, despite some clergies claiming that's the case.
The Mask concept is a bit more nebulous while the core of the deity remains independent and self-determining. Sure in a meta-game sense, it may be true a few deities are one being, but it's not for certain.
The example of Bane and Iyachtu Xvim is a good example. They are related deities with overlapping claims. Banites would claim Xvim is an unruly child who should be broken into submission, a rogue aspect, or not a literal son of Bane, rather just an uppity servant. Meanwhile Xvimites would say it's time for the son to surpass the father. Some sects of each may claim the other god is a manifestation of Cyric, a divinely empowered trick.
The Mulhorandi pantheon would go exactly as you've outlined. For the Realms, it could be a canonical explanation that between the long decline of the Old Empires and the Spellplague shunting over entire regions a change over happened. However, from the Mulhorandi viewpoint, the other gods are manifestations of their deities.
Midgard has done as much with the similarly Egyptian-themed Nurian pantheon. Except there is no denying the power and influence of that local pantheon and Midgard integrated Nuria-Natal to a greater extent from the start, so it's less awkward in that sense.
Velsharoon, Kiaransalee, Myrkul, and Orcus being related for their undead-theme would be broken up differently.
Orcus is limited having only been a deity for a short time (and then losing it), and would likely be a Dark God if that. He was never a mainstream deity, he's a demon prince, a different category altogether.
Kiaransalee as an ascended mortal of only a racial pantheon may only be a "saint" or demigod level entity (like the Saints of Mavros, Baba Yaga, or the Master of Demon Mountain). Shar may claim her as a mask for their shared annihilation tendency and opposition of Lolth.
Likewise for Velsharoon, for being newly ascended mortal turned minor god is mostly in the saintly/demigod league. He's also somewhat of a local deity, limited to mostly Thay.
Myrkul is the only one with enough godhood under his belt to qualify as a regular deity and he may still be a dark god or a "servant" of Bane in the Dark Three. Of course, Myrkul has given up godhood and Velsharoon is new, so we're in a transition period. There are few masks here, only featherweight contenders going after the same vacant crown. |
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Midgard Gods & Masks / Toril Gods & Alias'
