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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 17:29:42
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TRW, I'm sorry if I have unintentionally rubbed you the wrong way; it was not my intention to provoke or insult you. If you wish to discuss it further, please email me anytime you like: erikscottdebie@yahoo.com
For the sake of clarity, I will address a couple of your points:
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
So Superman represents, truth , Justice and the American way. Something all his readers believe in as well? Until someone who might write him has beliefs different than yours.
Interesting. Tolerence for everyone.....as long as their views are the same as yours.
You seem to be misunderstanding my point.
Superman is a character who represents truth, justice, and the American way (which is a subject of discussion, but in my head means) that "all [people] are created equal, that they are endowed with certain inalienable rights, among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." While I happen to cleave to these values, my own beliefs are not relevant--what's relevant here is the CHARACTER, who has been alive longer than Orson Scott Card and has never wavered in what he represents.
That is the character Card was being asked to write--a character so alien to his own stated intentions and beliefs as to be, I think, nonsensical. Could he write such a character? Sure, no doubt he could. Should he?
And when I was suggesting that certain writers are better disposed to write certain things, I was not suggesting that their previous publishing history should be prescriptive for that determination. If so, then Neil Gaiman would only write comic books and/or short stories--not novels or children's stories. But clearly he is more than capable of writing all kinds of things.
quote:
If our founding fathers had refused to be tolerant of their fellow colonists because of differences in beliefs, their would be no America, no superman at all.
And if Card had been chief among them, that may indeed have happened.
Excluding intolerance is not the same as being intolerant. In order for a society to be equal and tolerant, the law must not allow for intolerance, and there must be systems in place to deal with intolerance.
Standing up to intolerance is not in itself an act of intolerance, no more than locking up convicted criminals is kidnapping or violently defending an innocent from an attacker is assault. A good person can hate evil, even though "hate" is usually associated with evil.
Let's look at a Realmsian analogy: a horde of orcs is attacking a village in Cormyr. If your knight goes to defend the city, does that mean he is as much an aggressor as them? No. He is defending the city. The fact that he does so by standing up to the orcs does not make him an aggressor (or, rather, his aggression is only incidental, and not purposeful).
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I dont agree with all of Cards stances...I have yet to find a single human being who believes exactly as I do. So what am I to do?
Not support anyone with my money I suppose, and before I starve, because no food vendor is worthy of my support....I should spend all my energy trying to get the Fed Ex guy fired because he is anti second amendment? Because when he was delivering some ammo to my neighbor he told him he didnt think he should be allowed to own guns. Then I can try to get the teacher fired who doesnt grade on a curve, because we all know thats not fair to the kids. And dont forget out soccer coach, who allowed our team to win 12-0 last week.....he's a brute who puts winning over making kids feel good.
You are free to make your own choices as to where your money goes.
If you want to punish people for their beliefs, that's a pretty sucky thing to do, and that isn't at all what I'm advocating. The movement against Card has little to nothing to do with his beliefs--its his ACTIONS and WORDS that people object to.
If your food vendor sells food at a discount to white people but hikes up prices for black people because he just doesn't like those [insert slur here], then yes, you should feel justified shopping elsewhere.
If your FedEx guy screams at you every day for having guns and puts signs out in your yard that say you and your family are abominations of nature because you have guns, yeah, you'd be justified in trying to get him fired.
If your teacher awards every blonde and blue-eyed student an A without expecting anything like academic study or work because in her view they are blessed by some sort of god, but gives all dark-haired students a F regardless of how hard they worked because she just doesn't like brunettes and wants them to go away, then yes, you'd be justified in trying to get her fired.
If the coach in your example leads the team to a 12-0 victory, then calmly explains to the kids that it's because the other team is composed of [insert gay slurs here] who'll never amount to anything and will go to hell because of their vile ways, then yeah, by all means, get him dislodged from his post.
You see where I'm going with this?
It isn't about what Card believes. Here in America, we have religious freedom (or, at least, we should), and everyone should be free to believe whatever he or she wants to believe, however logical or irrational it might be. It's about what Card DOES and what he has CHOSEN to represent--it's about where the money goes. And a lot of people are extremely uncomfortable with that, as the movement against Card's comic suggests.
And as I said, I have nothing against Card personally, and I see no cause to blacklist or otherwise censor him.
quote:
I still don't understand how this scroll is realms related....and once again I am frustrated this forum for the realms is hi-jacked away form it's intent.
Ed created the Realms many years ago as a place of truth, justice, and tolerance. It isn't all wine and roses, sure, but enough diversity of opinion and lifestyle exists in the Realms that it leads us to ask question like in the original OP.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 18:43:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
TRW, I'm sorry if I have unintentionally rubbed you the wrong way; it was not my intention to provoke or insult you. If you wish to discuss it further, please email me anytime you like: erikscottdebie@yahoo.com
For the sake of clarity, I will address a couple of your points:
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
So Superman represents, truth , Justice and the American way. Something all his readers believe in as well? Until someone who might write him has beliefs different than yours.
Interesting. Tolerence for everyone.....as long as their views are the same as yours.
You seem to be misunderstanding my point.
Superman is a character who represents truth, justice, and the American way (which is a subject of discussion, but in my head means) that "all [people] are created equal, that they are endowed with certain inalienable rights, among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." While I happen to cleave to these values, my own beliefs are not relevant--what's relevant here is the CHARACTER, who has been alive longer than Orson Scott Card and has never wavered in what he represents.
That is the character Card was being asked to write--a character so alien to his own stated intentions and beliefs as to be, I think, nonsensical. Could he write such a character? Sure, no doubt he could. Should he?
And when I was suggesting that certain writers are better disposed to write certain things, I was not suggesting that their previous publishing history should be prescriptive for that determination. If so, then Neil Gaiman would only write comic books and/or short stories--not novels or children's stories. But clearly he is more than capable of writing all kinds of things.
quote:
If our founding fathers had refused to be tolerant of their fellow colonists because of differences in beliefs, their would be no America, no superman at all.
And if Card had been chief among them, that may indeed have happened.
Excluding intolerance is not the same as being intolerant. In order for a society to be equal and tolerant, the law must not allow for intolerance, and there must be systems in place to deal with intolerance.
Standing up to intolerance is not in itself an act of intolerance, no more than locking up convicted criminals is kidnapping or violently defending an innocent from an attacker is assault. A good person can hate evil, even though "hate" is usually associated with evil.
Let's look at a Realmsian analogy: a horde of orcs is attacking a village in Cormyr. If your knight goes to defend the city, does that mean he is as much an aggressor as them? No. He is defending the city. The fact that he does so by standing up to the orcs does not make him an aggressor (or, rather, his aggression is only incidental, and not purposeful).
quote:
I dont agree with all of Cards stances...I have yet to find a single human being who believes exactly as I do. So what am I to do?
Not support anyone with my money I suppose, and before I starve, because no food vendor is worthy of my support....I should spend all my energy trying to get the Fed Ex guy fired because he is anti second amendment? Because when he was delivering some ammo to my neighbor he told him he didnt think he should be allowed to own guns. Then I can try to get the teacher fired who doesnt grade on a curve, because we all know thats not fair to the kids. And dont forget out soccer coach, who allowed our team to win 12-0 last week.....he's a brute who puts winning over making kids feel good.
You are free to make your own choices as to where your money goes.
If you want to punish people for their beliefs, that's a pretty sucky thing to do, and that isn't at all what I'm advocating. The movement against Card has little to nothing to do with his beliefs--its his ACTIONS and WORDS that people object to.
If your food vendor sells food at a discount to white people but hikes up prices for black people because he just doesn't like those [insert slur here], then yes, you should feel justified shopping elsewhere.
If your FedEx guy screams at you every day for having guns and puts signs out in your yard that say you and your family are abominations of nature because you have guns, yeah, you'd be justified in trying to get him fired.
If your teacher awards every blonde and blue-eyed student an A without expecting anything like academic study or work because in her view they are blessed by some sort of god, but gives all dark-haired students a F regardless of how hard they worked because she just doesn't like brunettes and wants them to go away, then yes, you'd be justified in trying to get her fired.
If the coach in your example leads the team to a 12-0 victory, then calmly explains to the kids that it's because the other team is composed of [insert gay slurs here] who'll never amount to anything and will go to hell because of their vile ways, then yeah, by all means, get him dislodged from his post.
You see where I'm going with this?
It isn't about what Card believes. Here in America, we have religious freedom (or, at least, we should), and everyone should be free to believe whatever he or she wants to believe, however logical or irrational it might be. It's about what Card DOES and what he has CHOSEN to represent--it's about where the money goes. And a lot of people are extremely uncomfortable with that, as the movement against Card's comic suggests.
And as I said, I have nothing against Card personally, and I see no cause to blacklist or otherwise censor him.
quote:
I still don't understand how this scroll is realms related....and once again I am frustrated this forum for the realms is hi-jacked away form it's intent.
Ed created the Realms many years ago as a place of truth, justice, and tolerance. It isn't all wine and roses, sure, but enough diversity of opinion and lifestyle exists in the Realms that it leads us to ask question like in the original OP.
Cheers
No need for an apology. I took no offenese and intended to offer none as well. The idea that my favorite Realms author not named Elaine, would single me out and provke me never crossed my mind So we're all good right?(as in I'm still welcome at the candlekeep GenCon Event?)
I'm just tired. Of things dividing us and not uniting people. Especially something this simple(not unimportant!)...it really is simple. The government is sticking their nose in because we allowed it to happen. We allowed them to take control of a religious ceremony and make it "law". So much for seperation of church and state. We granted our Gov't the power over this. And we also allowed the gov't the power to say what happens to our goods and properties when we fall ill or pass on. WTF....why did we allow this? it's our own fault. We dropped the ball and allowed the gov't(when I use this i am talking federal government) to usurp our rights. We need to wake up at some point and see it is much, much bigger than who is going to write a Superman story or gay rights, or civil rights at stake. It is truly our FREEDOM itself under attack and we are(not all but far too many) sitting wringing our hands worried about where we are going, but not willing to do anything about it. Well I dont know about anyone else but I'm tired of "sleeping", tired of waiting on a hero....Im going to log off and fire of inumerable emails to my two senators, my congressman, my Governor and my state reps. Im going to ask them if there are ready to get to work yet, because I am. And if they arent' they will have to at least be busy deleting my emails every day! I think I will also ask them why they deserve a salary higher than the avg income of their constiuents and why they get exempted from new healthcare.
Then i'll go take a nap and start over tomorrow and see if I am still fired up!
P.S. sorry didnt really link this to the realms, so now I'm a hypocrite on that subject But the original post started me thinking...which is a dangerous thing.
Believe me it truley is dangerous....for the status Quo, it's the one thing all politicians fear, us all thinking for ourselves and taking action.
Maybe The Red Walker will fight for Truth, Justice and the Realmsian Way?? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 26 Mar 2013 18:47:30 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 18:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
No need for an apology. I took no offenese and intended to offer none as well.
Well the technical writing dig was a little harsh, but we technical writers have thick skins. 
quote:
The idea that my favorite Realms author not named Elaine, would single me out and provke me never crossed my mind So we're all good right?(as in I'm still welcome at the candlekeep GenCon Event?)
Of course. I *might* have to throw a water balloon at you, though. That's ok, right? I mean, it is August in Indianapolis.
And real world politics are really not what we want to discuss here. We fight with words and symbols, whether they seem small and unimportant or not, because those are the weapons we have. Change is slow in our government, as in any government, as in any society, and if we slip into complacency when it comes to advocating for it, then it never happens.
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I'm just tired. Of things dividing us and not uniting people. Especially something this simple(not unimportant!)...it really is simple.
You think *you're* tired. The LGBT community has been carrying on this war for their rights and equality since before either of us was born.
And yes, it really is simple. If getting past intolerance can happen in the Realms, where evil is real and powerful and has lots of power word: kill spells, I don't see why it can't happen here in our world.
quote:
Maybe The Red Walker will fight for Truth, Justice and the Realmsian Way??
That's what the Ghostwalker did. I can't imagine the Red Walker doing any different.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 19:06:51
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Also, tangentially and apropos of nothing:
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Or imagine someone who toils for hour upon hour writing technical documents or some such stuf...and they are very good at it....showing an obvious diposition to write non-fiction factual things....shouls he or she not try to write Shared wolrd fiction?
In point of fact, I wrote and published Ghostwalker before I ever got hired as a technical writer (I was in college during its writing, actually), and I've been writing novels since I was 15 years old. So based on my history, technical writing was actually kind of a leap for me. And you better believe my published novels were part of my resume that got me the job in the first place.
quote:
In all seriousness, I think I read somewhere your a "cat guy" while I have no hate for cats I am terribly allergic, to the point my breathing can almost stop......I would hate to not read your work because your support something that truly makes me ill. So as long as you books are cat dander free....I will overlook your feline predilictions
I have cats and a dog, so I suppose you might think of me as an "animal guy."
Also, how is that "in all seriousness"?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 19:45:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You are free to make your own choices as to where your money goes.
OK, we're in agreement there, Erik.
quote:
If you want to punish people for their beliefs, that's a pretty sucky thing to do, and that isn't at all what I'm advocating. The movement against Card has little to nothing to do with his beliefs--its his ACTIONS and WORDS that people object to.
Here's where things get murky, for me. His words are just statements of his beliefs, aren't they? They haven't been turned into action yet, have they? So essentially he is being harassed for his stated beliefs.
Now, I would kinda understand the animosity toward Card if he made Superman anti-gay and anti-equality. That would be out-of-character for Superman, and an abuse of Card's position. So that would be a situation in which fans would be justified, perhaps, in calling for Card to be fired.
quote:
If your food vendor sells food at a discount to white people but hikes up prices for black people because he just doesn't like those [insert slur here], then yes, you should feel justified shopping elsewhere.
If your FedEx guy screams at you every day for having guns and puts signs out in your yard that say you and your family are abominations of nature because you have guns, yeah, you'd be justified in trying to get him fired.
If your teacher awards every blonde and blue-eyed student an A without expecting anything like academic study or work because in her view they are blessed by some sort of god, but gives all dark-haired students a F regardless of how hard they worked because she just doesn't like brunettes and wants them to go away, then yes, you'd be justified in trying to get her fired.
If the coach in your example leads the team to a 12-0 victory, then calmly explains to the kids that it's because the other team is composed of [insert gay slurs here] who'll never amount to anything and will go to hell because of their vile ways, then yeah, by all means, get him dislodged from his post.
You see where I'm going with this?
OK, do you see that in all of those examples, the jerks were displaying their offensive behavior on the job?
But here, don't we have people giving Card a hard time, not over his job performance, but over his personal views voiced on a blog, or in interviews? They're taking non-job-related comments and then trying to place his job in jeopardy. That's a non sequitur, IMO.
Again, I can totally understand that fans may not want to support any celebrity/entertainer once that individual has taken an unpopular stance on any given issue. Once that person opens his/her big mouth, then fans are free to respond with their wallets. Really, we shouldn't be so petty. We should be able to differentiate between a celeb's personal beliefs and his/her professional performance. But we're all human. Stuff gets to us, sometimes. Fine, whatever.
But going after the guy's job seems un-American to me. Sure, it's modern American, with all the dirty litigiousness and strife. But it's not classic American, where we agree to let even unpopular opinions be aired, without petty retaliation.
There are people out there who have occasionally claimed that Bob Salvatore's stories are not "real Realms". Should they, then, try to get him removed from Realms fiction? (I know; I know--fat chance of that ever happening!  And Bob is like the furthest thing from Card there could ever be!) But still, is that the correct course of action for them to take? If they feel Bob doesn't write magic properly, or he doesn't characterize Lady Alustriel right, or consarn it! elves just don't close their eyes in reverie, then would it be right for them to call for his head?
Doesn't that sound like overkill?
Even for the guy who took a drow, and then turned him all goodly and heroic? Isn't it overkill even to try to get that guy fired?
Well, AFAIK, Card hasn't even done anything remotely similar to that.
Again, it's fine to passively not buy his stuff. But it's something else to actively try to get him fired from his day job because of what he has said on his off-time. I say, don't buy his stuff, let his spin on the comic finish a short run, and then wait for DC to get someone new when they think it makes good business sense. Superman is far bigger than Card, so the big guy will be all right. Just let Card's era wither on the vine and fade away. But leave the toxic pesticide out of it. (Not that you, personally, are doing or saying anything toxic, Erik. That's more directed at the termination-mongers.) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 20:12:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
The government is sticking their nose in because we allowed it to happen. We allowed them to take control of a religious ceremony and make it "law". So much for seperation of church and state. We granted our Gov't the power over this. And we also allowed the gov't the power to say what happens to our goods and properties when we fall ill or pass on. WTF....why did we allow this?
Well, actually, sad to say, I think marriage actually began as a property matter, rather than as a religious one. As I was telling Aldrick elsewhere, the word "marriage" appears to have originally come from the Proto-Indo-European word mari, meaning "a young woman". A man equipped, furnished, gifted, or supplied with a young lady of his own was said to be maritus, or "married". It was like saying he was "propertied", or "landed", or "monied".
So, seen in that light, it's understandable that the idea of property rights and probate procedures might become attached to marriage.
(I don't know which irks me more, though: that religion got into it, too; or that men treated women like property in the first place!)
Q to all: Is there record of people in the Realms having this sort of history when it comes to marriage? Has marriage in the Realms always been about mutual love? Or has it been about cold-hearted, pragmatic property rights, too?
quote:
it's our own fault. We dropped the ball and allowed the gov't(when I use this i am talking federal government) to usurp our rights.
Well, I'd say we dropped the ball when we, men collectively, ever stooped to the Cretan level of viewing women as material objects and property to be acquired and owned.
The government, which was run almost exclusively by men until only quite recently in world history, only served to protect the rights of its primary agents: those same men.
The process of changing all that, to make things more inclusive and more egalitarian has been slow and gradual. But in large part, it has come by way of working within the governmental and legal systems, to change things from the inside. Ever-expanding perspectives of equality and justice are the positive results of this bickering and contentiousness and, yes, though I hate to admit it, litigiousness.
So while it stinks that we got it started off on the wrong foot, it's actually a good thing that people are using the system to belatedly make wrong things right.
This is, of course, despite the protests of people like Card.
quote:
We need to wake up at some point and see it is much, much bigger than who is going to write a Superman story or gay rights, or civil rights at stake. It is truly our FREEDOM itself under attack and we are(not all but far too many) sitting wringing our hands worried about where we are going, but not willing to do anything about it.
By fighting for "gay rights", people are actually just fighting for equal rights. So they're really fighting for all of us. They're fighting for freedom from legislative discrimination, segregation, and divisification. (OK, I made that last word up, but it sounded good! )
And in so doing, they are moving us all, one step at a time, further and further away from that old, crusty, sexist, property-based mindset. Maybe someday we'll evolve even further, to the point where we can get government and religion both completely out of it, and just leave it up to consenting adults to make up their own minds for themselves.
But what do I know? I'm just a fantasy fiction reader. I'm just a dreamer. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 20:17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
The idea that my favorite Realms author not named Elaine, would single me out and provke me never crossed my mind So we're all good right?(as in I'm still welcome at the candlekeep GenCon Event?)
Of course. I *might* have to throw a water balloon at you, though. That's ok, right? I mean, it is August in Indianapolis.
As an alternative, I was thinking you could maybe add "Card Lover", or "Card Defender" at least, to his con namebadge or something. Maybe get Matt and Brian to make up some special, limited-run pins.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 23:20:19
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To answer your question, BEAST, Card has actively given LOTS of money to anti-gay campaigns and uses his author's pulpit to cry havoc against the cause of equal rights. So yes, he isn't just "voicing his beliefs"--he's actively engaging in the political and social arena to resist the force of progress.
And no one is "going after his day job." I suspect Card hasn't had a day job since he sold Ender's Game. He is a professional writer, and there are always gigs out there for a high-caliber professional writer like him.
Not to sound cheesy or starry-eyed fanboy about it, but writing Superman is a privilege and a responsibility, and it is about more than writerly chops. No doubt Card could create the story and dialogue and do it amazingly well. But buried within that story will be a core of intolerance, and that makes the whole thing fall flat.
Speaking from my own experience (I only ever speak for myself), authors cannot help but put themselves into the stories they write. Everything I write is deeply personal, and I am deeply emotionally invested in my characters, plots, and message. If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't write it. Will there be hate and bigotry and intolerance in my work? Sure, but never in a way that glories such things.
And regarding RAS and his "realmsiness," Bob is the second most important voice in the Realms, behind Ed Greenwood. Looking at his books and saying "that isn't the Realms" is a little nonsensical.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 08:15:41
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
By fighting for "gay rights", people are actually just fighting for equal rights. So they're really fighting for all of us. They're fighting for freedom from legislative discrimination, segregation, and divisification. (OK, I made that last word up, but it sounded good! )
Once in a rare while someone says what I would have tried to say perfectly. Thanks. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 18:11:16
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I still disagree with going after a person at their work. We have a political arena...and that is where all political matters should be resolved. Card suks...but we would suck more if we get personal. Lowering a debate to a personal level only makes us as low.
If card donates money to a group against lgbt then that is his courseoutsof action. If he spouts hate...that is his action.
We should be better...how can we be better? By not being anything even similar to those we oppose. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 18:17:55
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DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Also, equal rights regardless of sexual orientation is not a purely political matter. It's a moral, ethical, societal, and cultural one.
But we're getting fairly far afield here.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 19:22:01
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I am sitting in Salt Lake City right now...the hypocrisy is thick all around me. This city, nice as it is, is a constant reminder to me of how often the persecuted become the persecutors in our society.
I only hope the pendulum of chaos doesn't swing too wildly this time. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 21:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I am sitting in Salt Lake City right now...the hypocrisy is thick all around me. This city, nice as it is, is a constant reminder to me of how often the persecuted become the persecutors in our society.
The history of the European migration from the Old World to the American colonies tells a similar tale. They ostensibly left European religious persecution, only to set up similar such religious establishments in the colonies. They ran away from bullies, only to become bullies on their own.
I would be willing to bet that Realms history is full of similar such examples, even if I can't think of specific examples at the moment. Egalitarianism and liberty for all cannot have been the norm for the Realms for all time, right?
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 04:55:42
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| Any franchise has to protect its image. What card says is extreme even if you don't believe in treating sexual minorities fairly. I would not want my business associated with that. (I found Ender's game homoerotic when I read it...) |
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Trebor
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 08:49:02
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I don't really know how much more I can say that hasn't already been said, but I'll go for it anyway.
I really love the Forgotten Realms. The setting has been one of my favorite things since I got into the novels and game back in '05. To me, the Realms has become a sort of character in its own right, and I feel like there needs to be some basic considerations made when it comes to who we let color that character. I'm sure anyone can agree that writers trusted with working in the Realms have a job that's equal parts adoption and creation. A Forgotten Realms author weaves their own work around--and with--the threads of the giant tapestry that makes up FR's history.
I wouldn't trust someone like Card to add to that inclusive and progressive tapestry without trying to also color it with their own hurtful agendas. It only takes one artistically-misused character to really hurt someone who might have otherwise become a fan for life. Everyone has wrong opinions, but artists have a special kind of responsibility when it comes to how they express them. If someone is willing to go out of their way to make sure everyone knows exactly what their prejudices are, how could you ever trust them to keep them from informing their work?
In short, I would feel very betrayed if a bigoted person like Card was allowed to drip even a little of their venomous viewpoints into a setting that's meant to embrace anyone who needs a place for their imagination to get lost in. |
Edited by - Trebor on 31 Mar 2013 09:00:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 14:24:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse. 
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Mar 2013 14:26:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 15:45:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse.
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot.
Saying you will not buy something written by a person is not the same as pressuring the company to fire him.
And even if it was, I'm sure he's not a DC staffer. Even if he was, he's got a lot of books to his credit -- so it's not like losing one gig would hurt him.
Politically correct or not, we all have the right to buy products from whomever we choose, and we have the right to not buy from whomever we choose.
His words were that he's going to work against the idea that everyone has the same Constitutionally-protected rights. I think that's a hell of a lot more anti-American than the statement "I don't agree with this guy's objectives, so I'm not going to support him."
Heck, not supporting someone you don't agree with is a fundamental part of our democracy: we exercise that right in the voting booth every few years. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2013 : 18:27:39
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| As far as political correctness goes, there seems to be nothing more PC than firing those who express opposing opinions, are accused of crimes, or are simply not what we enjoy. It happens every day is is normally celebrated by mass media in storms of editorial thumbs up stories. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 01:56:55
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Well who cares if its what you call anti-american? Ed Greenwood is from Toronto! The realms were thought up in his Canadian brain.
Card is well beyond just being politically correct he thinks people shouldn't have rights who do things he doesn't agree with. Freedom for all seems like what being the ideal of "America" is.
I would not want to buy books written by someone who thinks such awful things I'd be afraid of it seeping into my mind. Like has already been said I am sure those who are squawking would not be offended if an author was being silenced who wrote something they didn't like. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 02:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse.
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot.
that was very well said, but be careful....you will now be called out as a Card supporter. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 05:05:04
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Didn't read the whole thread, just skimmed it. Not sure if it's been pointed out, but I'm chiming in to add, the people against Card's involvement in the Superman title didn't technically do anything. They complained and sent letters and promised a boycott. The same thing both sides or any side does when there's something people disagree with.
DC actually stuck with Card for a bit. However, it was the artist on the title, Chris Sprouse, who decided the media/social network attention and delays wasn't something he wanted to deal with. That delay effectively killed the title. Whether he agreed with or was against Card doesn't matter. In the end enough people felt this endeavor wasn't worth the effort and called it quits.
Personally I would say Card's heavy involvement with an actual organization with their own specific agenda makes him more than a run-of-the-mill author who is just vocal on his views. He has an active leadership position in an organization working to bring about a that specific agenda. That shifts him from a private citizen to a public figure and the rules change slightly. In the end freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences and Card has made his views abundantly clear.
This could happen to anyone with any view, such as in this recent example:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/03/21/sexism-public-shaming-via-twitter-leads-to-two-people-getting-fired-including-the-shamer/
This happened to people who actually need their jobs for their livelihood. Card is far more active and veritably (technically just a posted photo combined with someone else's interpretation of their comment) controversial than these two. He knew the situation when he made his statements and his contributions to said organizations. He is no different than anyone else who loses their job over statements they've made. As shown above, people have lost their jobs for less. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 19:25:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse.
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot.
This is not to put MT on the spot, as I think we all know I like and respect him. And I don't really want to clog up this thread with more discussion of the Card situation, but a couple points need to be clarified:
*What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing.*
By analogy, if I said I hate women, firmly believe they should be considered second-class citizens without the rights that I enjoy as a man, forwarded over 20% of my income to organizations that actively seek to strip them of their rights, and scream about waging war on any government that tries to acknowledge women, then announced I was being tapped to write a story about the Seven Sisters or Wonder Woman or some other strong female character, then yes, I'd fully expect my audience to pressure the company to shelve that piece.
It isn't what Card says. It's what he DOES. What he has chosen to represent.
*They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.*
Again, it's not about his views or beliefs; it's about his actions. It's what he has chosen to stand for--the opposite of the hope and justice Superman represents to a huge number of people.
It'd be like finding the most rabidly anti-Drizzt writer (one who disagrees with everything Drizzt stands for) to write a Drizzt novel. Not only would it be an insult to the creator of the character (RAS) and to the thousands of Drizzt fans out there, but it would infect the character with this extremely toxic association.
And if one thinks Card *needs* this job to support his family, then one is confused about what it means to be a successful full-time author with as much clout as Card has.
*When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country.*
For the third time, it isn't about "agreeing" or not. I couldn't care less what Card thinks or believes--he's completely free to hold whatever beliefs he wants, crazy or logical. But he needs to be held accountable for what he *says* and *does*: he's free to do the things he does, but there's nothing in the first amendment that guarantees freedom from consequence. It is not un-American for people to react negatively to his rhetoric and actions and call for a boycott of this particular piece.
And it isn't about Card hating gay people--I honestly can't reach inside his head and see how he really feels, and I really don't care--it's about him actively working against them.
Or would you rather people be REQUIRED to support the work of rabid homophobes because it would be "PC" or "un-American" to take their business elsewhere? How anti-American is that?
*This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO.*
Is standing up to racism or sexism "politically correct"? Do you honestly think that the people supporting the Civil Rights or Women's Suffrage movements did so just to look like nice people or win karma points?
This is about justice. This is about equality.
The LGBT community and its allies took a stand on this point, and I think it's a powerful one. Superman represents truth, justice, and the American way. Card's vitriol and expressed intentions contradict that on every level.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 22:00:12
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| Very few people are LGBT (3%?) I am pretty sure it is because the majority of the population don't want insane bigots writing about their favourite hero. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2013 : 22:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Is standing up to racism or sexism "politically correct"? Do you honestly think that the people supporting the Civil Rights or Women's Suffrage movements did so just to look like nice people or win karma points?
This is about justice. This is about equality.
The LGBT community and its allies took a stand on this point, and I think it's a powerful one. Superman represents truth, justice, and the American way. Card's vitriol and expressed intentions contradict that on every level.
Cheers
To inject something here, there are some who would not appreciate the comparison of the status of gays to those of women and minorities. While I personally do believe that being born gay is a function of nature, there are many who do not. Women and minorities are obviously what they are as a result of biology and genetics.
And while you and I may say the same about those in the gay community, there is enough resistance to the idea among many parties, not all of them what you'd call 'lunatic fringe', to keep that particular question ('biology versus choice') fueled for quite some time (and quite often, among some members of these obviously biologically diverse communities). We may say that the debate is over, but many others don't see it that way at all.
I was never enamored with Superman to start with. I always found him to be...well...boring. Not even the Card controversy could change that, I'm afraid.
And I apologize for again extending the discussion. I live with people who are prone to beating a dead horse, it's likely rubbed off on me.
On a side note, Erik, I did not realize you were a panelist at Norwescon until well after the time had passed. That's what I get for not having my pocket program handy.  |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 18:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
To inject something here, there are some who would not appreciate the comparison of the status of gays to those of women and minorities. While I personally do believe that being born gay is a function of nature, there are many who do not. Women and minorities are obviously what they are as a result of biology and genetics.
And while you and I may say the same about those in the gay community, there is enough resistance to the idea among many parties, not all of them what you'd call 'lunatic fringe', to keep that particular question ('biology versus choice') fueled for quite some time (and quite often, among some members of these obviously biologically diverse communities). We may say that the debate is over, but many others don't see it that way at all.
Well, there are many people who don't believe in evolution or climate change or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And while they're perfectly welcome and allowed to believe that, it's irrelevant as regards the subject at hand. Whether or not being gay is a choice or biology, gay people are still endowed with certain inalienable rights and are just as worthy of respect and equal protection under the law as anyone else.
And I see no reason not to discuss the push for LGBT rights as parallel to the push for civil rights for any minority group, because that's what it is. I see people as people, and we should all see them that way.
quote:
I was never enamored with Superman to start with. I always found him to be...well...boring. Not even the Card controversy could change that, I'm afraid.
You know, I've found JMS's recent run on Superman to be an interesting reinvention of the character, one that does not fall prey to the same things that at times has made Supes kind of a boring character to read.
Though when it comes to DC, I prefer Wonder Woman and Batman, honestly.
quote:
And I apologize for again extending the discussion. I live with people who are prone to beating a dead horse, it's likely rubbed off on me.
I know the feeling.
quote:
On a side note, Erik, I did not realize you were a panelist at Norwescon until well after the time had passed. That's what I get for not having my pocket program handy.
Alas! Well, there's always next year. Or GenCon.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 21:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
DD, I think there's a misunderstanding here. No one is saying Card shouldn't write (though I'm sure there are some people who think that), and no one is attacking him personally. Only that people are saying they will not buy or support Card writing a Superman story. I see nothing morally contradictory here, and I don't think that makes those people anything like Card himself.
Actually... it makes them much worse.
What if you said something that a lot of people didn't agree with, and that group decided to put pressure on the company you work for to fire you? Thats just what they are doing. They are targeting someone who doesn't agree with their own views and causing him to loose his livelihood, one of the worse things you you could do to a person. Its not just an attack against him (because of his beliefs), its an attack against his family.
When people who "only agree with ME" are the only folks allowed to write in this country, its time for me to find another country. To quote a famous man, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
Or in this case, THINK IT. This 'politically correct' BS has got to stop... its anti-American, IMHO. What next? We start hauling away those people who bad-mouth the establishment? You don't have to agree with an idiot to defend his right to BE an idiot.
that was very well said, but be careful....you will now be called out as a Card supporter.
yep, Markustay and I think alike again. People going after people's livelihood by contacting their boss in an organized effort to get them fired for supporting something they believe in is wrong. It wasn't right when they black-listed people as communists and made them lose their jobs during McCarthy's time either. The more I hear of it, the more likely I am to vote no on not just gay marriage, but pretty much any similar complaint because I don't want to help any group that stoops so low (stress here on the word any... yep, if some KKK people did it, I'd think just as low of them... think on that for a second and how it reflects this cause in my eyes). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2013 : 22:04:06
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Well, I think the crucial point is: Is Mr. Card actually using the proceedings of his work and/or his position as a respected person in some media to support and fuel violence against homosexuals? How much, and in what ways, exactly?
Clearly, a boycott would be a reasonable reaction in many stances. I won't say which, that is, in the end, up to each individual. In other stances, it would probably be an overreaction. I honestly don't know enough to make a decision, since I don't need to. I don't think I ever bought a DC comic, and I know little about LGBT rights in America, so I'm hardly anybody in this arena. Those who are, though, probably ought to do some research and decide for themselves.
I don't want to ridicule the fight of LGBT groups. They are, by and large, very reasonable in their demands. But it is apparent that some people are trying to make gay marriage sound like the end-all be-all of civil rights equality. The truth is the government plays a wretched game with our "rights" all the time - that's true in Brazil as it is in America. Hells, single people don't have the same rights as married people do. Isn't that the whole point of pressing for marriage equality? It kinda seems to discriminate against single people to me, though. So now if you're a proponent of man-and-woman civil marriage only, you're a bigot. If you're a proponent of man-and-woman, woman-and-woman, man-and-man marriage, then you're a champion of equality. What about polygamous marriages (oh, that's taboo!)? What about people who are NOT married, as I pointed out? Should we be asking the State to put a stamp of approval on our relationships anyway? The whole thing is a damn lobbying game, so excuse me if I don't think the slightly-worse side should really be attracting so much flak.
On the other hand, violence against homosexuals is a real problem (much more than whether the government calls their union a marriage or not). I'd be much more concerned about an author's stance on that matter (if I had any reason to buy one of his works anyway). |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 03 Apr 2013 22:07:50 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 01:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Well, I think the crucial point is: Is Mr. Card actually using the proceedings of his work and/or his position as a respected person in some media to support and fuel violence against homosexuals? How much, and in what ways, exactly?
I wouldn't think so. DC Comics usually has pretty stringent rules on this kind of thing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2013 : 06:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
yep, Markustay and I think alike again. People going after people's livelihood by contacting their boss in an organized effort to get them fired for supporting something they believe in is wrong. It wasn't right when they black-listed people as communists and made them lose their jobs during McCarthy's time either. The more I hear of it, the more likely I am to vote no on not just gay marriage, but pretty much any similar complaint because I don't want to help any group that stoops so low (stress here on the word any... yep, if some KKK people did it, I'd think just as low of them... think on that for a second and how it reflects this cause in my eyes).
There is no call for a black-list. There is no call for Card being "fired" from a job he was never "hired" for. He's a freelance writer offered the chance to write Superman. He could be doing it for a million dollars an issue or for free--that's irrelevant.
To follow your analogy, the people you are berating are not McCarthy. They are the ones STANDING UP to McCarthy. It's seriously like you're arguing that "people should never object to what someone in the media says, no matter how bigoted, racist, or hate-filled." Following this logic, the Germans should never have spoken out against Hitler, the Russians against Stalin, and so on and so forth, because those people were entitled to their opinions and calling for them to be removed from office is just wrong.
Writers and artists are public figures. Particularly if they put themselves out there are opponents or proponents of an a particular issue. What they say has consequences. Card has every right to say whatever he wants. His audience has every right to be offended by what he says and call for him not to ruin something they enjoy. Seriously.
Also, why would you see this issue as a reason to vote AGAINST equality? The gay marriage movement and the movement against Card are not the same movement. While I doubt anyone who supports same-sex marriage would be particularly happy about Card writing Superman, a lot of them simply don't care. To them, marriage equality is more important. This is like saying "Well, Bill Clinton committed adultery, so I'm going to vote against Al Gore, because they're both democrats."
Also, hundreds of thousands of people doing one thing you disagree with makes you vote against civil rights for tens of millions of people? I . . . I don't really know what to say to that.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Truth and Justice in an Inclusive World
