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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 13:06:14
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This topic is inspired by Richard’s essay Search For Truth, Justice, American Way, 2013 Style .
I'm gay, and I'm definitely not buying any Card novels. Protests and the like bore me, so you wouldn't see me actively joining those “concerned” citizens in the streets. But they have my (silent) support. You see, ‘tis one of the reasons I sometimes wish to know as little about an author as possible, because half the time, I discover something about them that either makes me hate them or completely ignore them.
This got me thinking too:
quote:
So I think the attempt to separate Mr. Card from DC is both ethical and understandable. But it may also be harsh, especially if, as seems likely, the story he would write would have nothing to do with gay rights, pro or con.
Harsh, maybe. But would we rather wait till Card makes a solid foothold on DC with his stories and eventually does as he pleases with his future projects, including (Nine Hells forbid) gay bashing? What’s worse, he’s writing about the only DC character I care about.
Now, what if an author like Card who’s vocal about his stand against same-sex relationship gets invited by WotC to write a Realms novel? Will his personal view matter to you? Or will it not, so long as it does not permeate his writing (e.g. As part of a subplot, he writes about a knight falling in love with his male friend, a fellow knight who has been led astray from their chosen path, and then for some reason they are both struck by lightning)?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 14:09:49
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Personal views have never mattered to me because they only represent one singular person's view, regardless of what they do. For example, I didn't reject and boycott Chick-fil-A just because the owner of the company spoke out against gay marrage because the local Chick-fil-A isn't run day-to-day by him. He's run by some guy who I don't even know and lets face it, I think their chicken sandwiches are amazing and they got waffle fries.
But, getting back to the topic and to answer your question, no I don't really care about people's personal views and would consider reading a book by someone who I didn't agree with on a personal level so long as the subject matter interested me and it didn't push his own agenda or beliefs onto the reader. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 14:20:38
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One of my fave fantasy authors once bashed shared world fiction. That hasn't stopped me from buying that author's novels.
I don't care what an author's personal politics are, as long as they don't wind up in the story. I've read books where I felt like the author was preaching his or her views, and if it comes to dominate the story, then I don't read more by that author.
The Realms has moved past the TSR Code of Ethics, but WotC is still quite cognizant of their target market. I don't think we'll see any real focus on controversial real-world topics; I think it will mostly stay in the background. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 14:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Now, what if an author like Card who’s vocal about his stand against same-sex relationship gets invited by WotC to write a Realms novel? Will his personal view matter to you? Or will it not, so long as it does not permeate his writing
Of course it would matter. I'd feel kinda dirty (as in gross and beneath myself) reading someone whom I disagreed with that strongly. It's enough to keep me from opening a book by such a person in the first place.
Yes, that's close-minded. But I'm a very slow reader, and I have to be choosy about what I invest my reading time into. I'm not bothering with such.
That being said, the mere fact that I disagree with an author's political stance is not enough to make me hate the writing. I got into a dumb online argument with Paul S. Kemp over the US Constitution within a few days of following his blog, and so I promptly left. I very much still disagree with him on that subject. But that doesn't take away one iota of the respect and jealousy that I have for his Realms writing prowess.
I'm from the US state of Texas, which is considered to be a fairly conservative area, while my fave Realms author Bob Salvatore is from Massachussetts, which is usually considered to be a fairly liberal state. I imagine that if Bob and I were to get into a discussion of our most cared-for political subjects, we would finally start butting heads, unlike anything that's ever happened when talking about his Realms fiction. I've heard that he used to let his political opinions fly on his boards years ago. But that resulted in a lot of flaming, and so, he refrains from it nowadays. Regardless, I have a hard time imagining any political opinion that he might have which could in any way by extension sour me on his stories, too.
It's as if they're in completely different realms . . .
quote:
(e.g. As part of a subplot, he writes about a knight falling in love with his male friend, a fellow knight who has been led astray from their chosen path, and then for some reason they are both struck by lightning)?
For some reason they both struck by lightning, huh? How about because they're both riding around in a thunderstorm up on horseback in full metal plate with long metal swords or spears waving around in the air?  
Actually, your example would provide an excellent opportunity to examine the Realmsian gods'/god's views on homosexuality, as the god in question would have to tackle how to handle the afterlife for both gentlemen. That might be very worthwhile reading, sir. 
It kinda brings to mind the Biblical question, "If a woman remarries 7 times and then she dies, which man would be her husband in the afterlife?" Which aspects of our personalities/lifestyles in the material life would carry over into the afterlife? Do sex and sexuality have meaning anymore, once you've become an incorporeal spirit? And why would it matter to a deity, either way: in your corporeal life, or your incorporeal one? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 14:57:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Personal views have never mattered to me because they only represent one singular person's view, regardless of what they do. For example, I didn't reject and boycott Chick-fil-A just because the owner of the company spoke out against gay marrage because the local Chick-fil-A isn't run day-to-day by him. He's run by some guy who I don't even know and lets face it, I think their chicken sandwiches are amazing and they got waffle fries.
But, getting back to the topic and to answer your question, no I don't really care about people's personal views and would consider reading a book by someone who I didn't agree with on a personal level so long as the subject matter interested me and it didn't push his own agenda or beliefs onto the reader.
See the whole Chick-Fil-A thing.... I'm one of those people who felt the people attacking said company (who has been closed on Sundays since forever because of their religious values) rather than the person went overboard. So, I went the other way and made sure to buy a ton of Chick-Fil-A food just to piss off the people who were acting like <expletive deleted>. I brought food to my Mom and my brother's house too.
So, when I hear these people are attacking this dude's livelihood for holding an opinion (and thereby also affecting his family, etc...).... I'm very tempted to make sure I buy something from him. It also does exactly in my mind what Mr. Beyers says... it makes me think the people who as an organization are complaining are very small minded and petulant (not the people on this thread... the activists trying to get the guy fired... I want to be clear here).
Straight up, that's my reaction to what I just read. It may endear me to some. It may make others think I'm a moron. Also, to be up front as well about my thoughts on gay marriage. I have been on the fence on the subject for a long time, because I have gay friends that have lived together for years. The more I see of stuff like this, the more close-minded I get toward the topic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 15:02:15
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I think that is a fantastic article by Richard Byers. I agree with most of its points.
I'm gay too, and I do modify my purchasing habits when I encounter a business or an individual who is anti-LGBT. In the case of individuals like Card, it's not that I don't believe that an artist can separate their personal views from their work. It's that I don't want a penny of my money going to support the livelihood of someone who thinks that I deserve less-than-equal rights, and I don't want a penny of my money that they may receive going to political causes that would discriminate against me.
I believe Chick-fil-A can separate their anti-LGBT views from making a chicken sandwich, but they also use the money they make to support anti-LGBT political groups. The same thing is true for Orson Scott Card.
Like Richard, I also will not see movies directed, produced, or starring Mel Gibson in a leading role. Even old movies, such as Braveheart, are now ruined for me due to his anti-LGBT and anti-semitic views.
I am also glad that Richard pointed out that this isn't an assault against Card's free speech. The First Amendment is designed to keep the government from silencing Card, and I strongly support Card's right to be as bigoted as he wants. However, I also have the right to free speech, and by choosing not to purchase certain products from businesses or individuals and encouraging others not to do so as well - I'm actively exercising it. People who make the claim that this is somehow silencing Card's free speech are basically saying, "We need to protect free speech by opposing free speech."
Richard brought up L. Frank Baum and other such non-contemporary authors that held repulsive views. I think the distinction between contemporary and non-contemporary is important. If an author is dead, the money his estate receives from my purchasing of his works isn't going to support his livelihood. Using L. Frank Baum as the example, I doubt anyone who makes any money off of his works agrees with his genocidal views regarding Native Americans. So, not only is money not going to the author, money isn't going to people who agree with him, nor is it going to support political causes that advocate for the genocide of Native Americans.
On the other hand, I should point out that people who support the LGBT Community are more likely to get my support. A great example of this is Erik Scott de Bie. I wasn't intending to purchase the 4E Neverwinter Campaign Setting, but when I found out Erik worked on it my opinion shifted. I became more curious, and when I had the opportunity I ultimately picked it up. His views weren't the main reason I picked it up, but because I view Erik so favorably (in no small part because of his advocacy for a more inclusive portrayal of characters in the Realms) - I am vastly more inclined to support his work.
If you put two books that I might want to purchase in front of me; one author I know nothing about, and the other is Erik Scott de Bie, chances are I'm going to pick Erik every time. Not only do I believe Erik does good work, I have a highly favorable view of him as a person. I *WANT* to support him.
I have a limited amount of money to spend. I'd rather my money go to people and businesses that share my values than those that don't. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 15:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One of my fave fantasy authors once bashed shared world fiction. That hasn't stopped me from buying that author's novels.
I don't care what an author's personal politics are, as long as they don't wind up in the story. I've read books where I felt like the author was preaching his or her views, and if it comes to dominate the story, then I don't read more by that author.
The Realms has moved past the TSR Code of Ethics, but WotC is still quite cognizant of their target market. I don't think we'll see any real focus on controversial real-world topics; I think it will mostly stay in the background.
One of my favorite authors hates chocolates, while I on the other hand love chocolates. Does it matter in my decision whether to read his books or not? No. One of my favorite singers supported a presidential candidate whom I thought was full of crap. Did I stop buying her albums? No. Such things are easier to “forgive” because they aren’t exactly that personal, that intimate. Being gay is not the whole of me, but it is a significant part of me. So when people attack, denounce, or in any way insinuate malice toward that part of me, then I’d never bother supporting their works.
Perhaps it’s difficult for non-gays to understand. But consider this: what if a self-proclaimed elitist, feminist novelist is vocal about her stand on man (no exception) being evil, dirty, unable to stick to one woman, stupid, possessing the intelligence of a twelve-year-old child, and unfit for fatherhood, and the same woman writes a novel whose subject interests you. Will you still read it? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 15:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
(e.g. As part of a subplot, he writes about a knight falling in love with his male friend, a fellow knight who has been led astray from their chosen path, and then for some reason they are both struck by lightning)?
For some reason they both struck by lightning, huh? How about because they're both riding around in a thunderstorm up on horseback in full metal plate with long metal swords or spears waving around in the air?
That’s an excellent addition to the example.
quote:
Actually, your example would provide an excellent opportunity to examine the Realmsian gods'/god's views on homosexuality, as the god in question would have to tackle how to handle the afterlife for both gentlemen. That might be very worthwhile reading, sir.
The problem is, I don’t believe in gods. Haha. Anyway, for the sake of this example, okay, let me give my two cents . . . It hasn’t been established, AFAIK, that certain gods spurn same-sex relationship. So as long as those misshapen gay lovers remain faithful to their god right till the moment of their stupid deaths, then in their god’s arms they shall rest. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 15:30:45
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*Meh*
I am against same sex marriage...
But only because I think ALL marriage is an antiquated system (designed to give both the gov't and church power over people and their finances). They shouldn't have 'added' gay marriage... they should have abolished the concept all together.
You want equality? Stop allowing OTHER PEOPLE control over your lives - live, love, and laugh... and leave the gov't & the church to their own medieval devices. People should feel free to do what they want (within reason), and not have to SIGN CONTRACTS regarding who they love and how they love them.
As for the topic (not sure precisely what it is), I think Terry Goodkind is one of the worst offenders of the '"push your OWN political agenda" authors, and his soap-boxing is often hard to muddle-through, but I still enjoyed most of his Sword of Truth novels. It began to get both boring and repetitive toward the end though, and his tie-in novel The Law of Nines was positively ABYSMAL. There isn't a good thing I could say about that one - it screams "I haven't written in awhile, have no new ideas, and need some money" all over it. Its an insult to his fanbase - he barely even bothered with his usually 'political agenda' crap (it was there, but so mild it was like he isn't even trying anymore), which is at least amusing at times.
So NO, I really don't care about a writers personal views, so long as they don't rub our faces in it constantly. What offends me is BAD WRITING, period. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Mar 2013 15:32:10 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 15:37:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I'd rather my money go to people and businesses that share my values than those that don't.
I wholeheartedly agree. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 15:51:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Perhaps it’s difficult for non-gays to understand. But consider this: what if a self-proclaimed elitist, feminist novelist is vocal about her stand on man (no exception) being evil, dirty, unable to stick to one woman, stupid, possessing the intelligence of a twelve-year-old child, and unfit for fatherhood, and the same woman writes a novel whose subject interests you. Will you still read it?
I probably would if it were on a completely different subject or if their ideas might be presented in an interesting way. I am liberal and in American terms probably borderline socialist, but have no problem with reading Nietzsche, Hamsun, Pound, E.R Eddison, Howard etc. but Lovecraft,Rand, etc have a tendency to annoy me. Narnia I have real problems with. The theoretical writer you present above writing a fantasy novel? That might be interesting. Another libertarian with a chip on his shoulders or anti-gay anti feminist ramblings even in a fantasy book I would not bother with; I only have one life so why waste my time. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 16:36:29
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I didn't read the comments posted here until after I had posted. I don't want to quote anyone directly, because I don't want this to turn into a political debate. (Candlekeep isn't appropriate for such a debate.) However, as one of the few gay people who post here I want to point out a few things. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I think it's important to bring it up.
Frequently, when a gay person complains a lot of straight people sigh wearily and wonder aloud, "Ugh. The gays are complaining again. Aren't they ever satisfied?" The underlying subtext of the remark is that a small handful of people are getting all this attention because they're upset. Let me try and paint a proper context for anyone who thinks this way.
The best numbers that we have is that people who self-identify as LGBT make up roughly 4% of the population of the United States. These are only the people who self-identify this way, not those who are in the closet or who identify differently - so this number has the potential to be even higher.
Now, most people might look at that number and say 4% is not a lot of people. Well, let's put it in context. We're talking about nearly 13 million people, or more approximately (as of March 23, 2003) 12,621,694 people.
Take a moment to appreciate how many people that number actually represents. If LGBT people all gathered into a single state, we would be the 7th largest state in the United States - with more people than Ohio, and nearly equal in population to Pennsylvania. If the LGBT people of the United States formed their own nation then we'd have more population than Israel and Ireland combined, with enough population still left over to easily populate a small island nation like Bermuda.
Think about that for a moment. There are more LGBT people living in the United States than there are people from Ireland or Israel - combined.
Then think about this fact. That's only the LGBT people from the United States. We come from every culture, tribe, ethnic group, and nation around the world. There is no group or segment of the human race to which we do not belong. This means if we assume - just as a base number - that 4% is the total of LGBT people on planet Earth then our population world wide is 282,963,048.
That's nearly the same population as the United States. If all LGBT people world wide got together to form a nation, we'd be the 4th largest nation on planet Earth behind China, India, and the United States. We'd have more people than Indonesia which would become the 5th largest nation on Earth.
So, when we talk about LGBT rights we're not talking about an insignificant handful of people. To deny LGBT people our equal and human rights is to effectively deny a huge segment of the human race their equal and human rights. It's fundamentally no different than a group of people advocating second class citizenship for Asian Americans, because guess what? The number of LGBT people and Asian Americans are roughly equal in number.
The truth of the matter is Card wouldn't be hired if he advocated for unequal and unfair treatment for Asian Americans. People would cry racist - and rightfully so - and many people who support Card now would be opposed to him then. The situation he is in right now is fundamentally no different.
Giving Card a free pass on this strips him of any negative social consequence for holding his view. The Civil Rights movement of the 1950's, 1960's, and 1970's didn't magically make white racists disappear. It simply paved the way for the majority of Americans to find their views abhorrent enough that expressing them publicly resulted in negative social consequences.
There is a reason that a respectable company isn't going to market something by an author who is a professed member of the KKK. The reason is obvious to all of us, we'd be offended, sickened, and disturbed that a company would dare allow someone like that to be employed by them. The majority of people who would buy Card's writing would not support the KKK author - it would not matter that his work has nothing to do with his views.
Card is no different. He is looking at an entire segment of the human race and is saying, clearly and plainly, that by our innate nature that we are somehow less-than-equal. He believes that we are not deserving of equal treatment under the law, and that we should be actively denied the same benefits and privileges other people enjoy.
This has little or nothing to do with his opinion on gay marriage directly, it's the reason and motivation behind that opinion that is the problem. It should not be shocking to anyone that LGBT people are offended and insulted. What should be shocking is that more straight people are not also equally offended and insulted. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 23 Mar 2013 16:38:49 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 18:02:48
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I may offend...
I'm a "normal" guy from Appalachian Virginia. I was raised a Pentacostal lad belonging to the Church of God...who after the Army found that I was a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I thought I had it all figured out...man was I wrong.
My wife, raised her entire life in the LDS faith, was taught her "place" in society: wife, mother, partner to a Priesthood Holder so that she could go to the Celestial Kingdom and become a Godess that would populate worlds without end...all that sweet Mormon belief of family and loyalty and "having a place in the world" was her cornerstone...then.
Here we are today. My wife is a Lesbian who only can identify herself as Bi-Sexual because she loves me so very much...but the hard truth is that women are the sex she is attracted to. We aren't Mormon any longer...we aren't part of any religion any longer...I don't even believe in a God that has any part in the world that is similar to any faith I've yet found on the planet...and I've studied a few (okay...nearly all of them in some small part).
People are as they are...and what some people don't seem to get is this: you feel as you feel. You feel as you were raised to feel...as trauma has made you feel...as culture has influenced you to feel. We feel many different ways on many different subjects.
I will with my lasty bloody breath defend my wife's RIGHT to be who she is wherever she is...and yes, even with who she feels to be with. I love her, she loves me, we love our children and our children love us. We are a family...that has an occasional "Aunt" that becomes part of our family.
Then there are folks like Card. There are folks like members of the KKK...there are folks who are Mormon, Baptist, Muslim and etc. There are Gay people, straight people and so on.
Why is Card repulsive? Is he repulsive because he holds a view...or because he refuses to accept a view? Does Card's view actually hurt anyone? Is a Republican repulsive to a Democrat? Does that make sense?
I think too many people on too many "sides" forget that it is ok for someone to reject you. It is ok to be rejected...so long as you are not repressed. If you don't have the same freedom, fight like a devil out of hell for the freedom you deserve...but not to hurt those who were once your oppressor, but to become equal in rights to them and stand on equal ground.
Too often those that were repressed become repressors themselves...and the scale again begins to swing violently.
Card is allowed to have his views...and they don't make him repulsive to me. I don't agree with him, at all...but he isn't repulsive to me. Instead I see him as a product of a culture/generation/group that sees the way that they view the world as being threatened.
When someone is threatened, they become full of fear...and being full of fear they lose perspective and rational thinking to a degree. I know this because I've been there. Today though, I'm no longer threatened because I was able to see through the fear and accept that what I want in my life is still the same...and can't be taken away simply because I had fear.
Empathy is equally important for both sides in any life-influencing topic...if you want empathy from someone you have to first use some ON THEM. Yeah, I said use it on them.
I'm an Irish-Norwegian-Welsh-Native American/Appalachian American. I accept anyone as a friend...anyone. I have friends that some would consider racist because they are fearful and so act out, I'm married to a lesbian who I love more than anything other than my children, I have friends that are Jewish and friends that are Arabic (and hate each other with a passion!), I have friends that are Chinese (but I don't like the abuses of the likes of Wal-Mart who sell primarily chinese goods)...the list goes on and on.
Why can I not admire someone for the positive influences they have on culture while also rejecting their views I disagree with...and all the while finding a moderate pathway to walk in life that doesn't exclude treasure where I find it?
Was the LDS church wrong for influencing California's laws...no...no they were not wrong for doing it. I disagree with it; but why is it wrong for someone to fight for what they think is right?
It isn't our job to crush the belief of others; but to simply convince them to allow us our own belief and practices. An inclusive world doesn't exist at the expense of any group...if to be included we have to make another group the pariah, then we are doing it wrong. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 18:23:59
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It's one thing to choose not to read a book because of the author's views.
It's another thing altogether to try to get him fired, thereby preventing him from writing other books, because of it.
One is simply an exercise of one's own free speech. The other is attacking a person's livelihood as a way of silencing his speech.
I don't think someone should be silenced. I think he should be opposed with speech, and let time show who made the better argument or advocacy for a position. Let the war of words be sufficient. Don't escalate it beyond that into something more. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 19:24:01
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@Beast +1
We know what they say about opinions..
I take the view, if you spew hate, I will not give you my money. You can have your opinion, you can speak it. No problem, if you are hateful or attempt to prevent other people from something because of your opinion, I will not support you in any sense. You can be an ass and I can ignore your product/service/company as if it did not exist.
But I will not spew hate towards that person/company either. If someone asks why I won't go to "X" place, I will tell them. But I will not give people crap if they want to go.
Ignorance and hate will not be stopped with more ignorance and hate.
My 2 coppers worth. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 19:26:24
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By exercising how we spend our money we are giving voice to our opinions. By attempting to convince others to do the same, we are also - once again - exercising our free speech. If enough people feel as we do, and Card is fired from his job, whose fault is it? Is it our fault for not wanting to buy books from someone who is prejudiced and advocates for bigotry to be enshrined in law? Or is it merely the consequences of Card's own actions?
Freedom to express your opinion does not free you from the consequences of expressing it. I take that risk every single time I come out to someone new. I run the risk of being rejected, and in most states - if I were not self-employed - being fired.
I don't believe Card should be silenced. I believe Card should be able to say anything he likes; he's perfectly entitled to his views. However, that doesn't mean I'm not going to fight to create a world where his views don't carry with them social consequences.
I don't want a racist teaching my nieces and nephews in school. Is it wrong of me to advocate for the dismissal of a teacher who advocates for racist views? I don't think so. There is a price to pay for holding such views.
We are not talking about simple differences of opinion here. It is silly to have a fundamental aspect of who you are compared to trivial things. It is no way similar to being a member of a political party, embracing a mainstream political ideology, or even a religion.
Why are those things different? Because those things, at their heart, are choices that people can change. You cannot change your race, gender, ethnicity, disability status, sexual orientation, or gender identity. They are fundamentally part of who you are as a person. In fact, they define who you are to a large degree.
Card can change his opinion. A gay person cannot stop being gay. That's the difference.
Going back to the article, if L. Frank Baum were alive today and advocating for the genocide of Native Americans, I think many people would feel differently about supporting his work. In fact, I think the majority of people would boycott his work (and rightfully so), which would threaten his livelihood. I do not believe people would see that as a problem.
The fundamental difference between L. Frank Baum's position and Card's is that advocating for the genocide of Native Americans is socially unacceptable. It will be punished. However, it is still sadly socially acceptable to advocate for discrimination against LGBT people, and this gives Card a free pass by many.
Let's just be blunt. Who here would feel comfortable with a staunch segregationist writing for Superman? Even if he isn't advocating for his views in the writing, would you feel comfortable supporting his work?
Because that's exactly what Card is doing. He is clearly saying that LGBT people are less-than-equal and deserve to be denied all the same rights, benefits, and privileges of other people. He believes that this should be enshrined in law. Separate and unequal in the eyes of the law is segregation. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 20:16:58
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Fellow Scribes,
I will, without looking to start a huge conversation, comment on this thread before returning to the blessedly non Liberals nor Conservatives filled world of the Forgotten Realms.
The United States at the dawn of the 21st century (and most of the Western World, of which we are all inhabitants as near as I can tell) has become all too politically polarized. You cannot seemingly go anywhere without running afoul of individuals seeking to convince you of, or worse - merely assert - the superiority of their point of view. They will use any excuse, issue, media, or medium to try to praise the rightness of their thinking and/or stifle opposing viewpoints by attempting to delegitimize them in the public square. I've seen this happen on the left and on the right. I'm frankly more than a bit tired of it.
One of the reasons I game is to escape such discussions. Sure, my games have all the complexities of real life for characters to grapple with should they choose to do so, but those issues tend to be crowded out by the simple focus on surviving and thriving in a world full of magic, danger, and intrigue.
Dennis, I get that your sexuality is a concept at the center of your being and I also get that your politics are clearly informed by that fact. I follow the logic of all of those posters who took the opportunity afforded by the existence of this thread to comment on the evils of censorship, discrimination in it's varied forms, and the like. However, when you yourself admit that the application of such considerations to the Realms (and Realms authors) is a mere hypothetical, I'm just not sure why this discussion must be had here.
To be clear, I support freedom of discussion, thought, conversation, association and the like. I quite frequently agree to disagree on a whole host of things and I'm also sure I don't share the same politics or world view with a number of my favorite authors, moviemakers, or entertainers. I just don't like seeing Candlekeep become akin to a Facebook feed where the issues of the day get bandied about for general discussion. I don't want to know where people here stand on immigration, foreign affairs, big versus small government, or the price of tea in China. Those issues might serve to divide us. I DO care what you think of all things Realms, and I certainly welcome discussions of equality between the genders, sexuality, censorship, and free speech - in Thay, Waterdeep, Silveymoon, or the Dales. I merely seek to focus on those things that, as a small community of fans, bring us together rather than provoke discussions that might give cause to divide. I say we leave religion and politics to the talking heads in the real world and get back to the sort of stuff we all can happily geek out over.
(And Dennis, no offense intended to you here, I get that you feel strongly, hopefully you'll take my suggestion in the spirit in which it was intended.)
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
Edited by - Kris the Grey on 25 Mar 2013 22:05:46 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 22:31:57
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Anyone who believes they will go to hell if they are not a practicing Christian does NOT have a choice...not in their own mind. Psychology can be very hard-wired and unchanging.
Saying someone can "choose" their religion when their entire life they have known nothing differently is a wrong-minded statement. Thousands of years of cultural teachings of entire societies and hundreds of generations does not simply get washed away by a simple choice.
My wife was more ill about the realization (not a choice!) that her faith was misplaced than she ever felt ill at ease about being attracted to women...she was literally vomiting when the realization came to her.
So, if we want people to be open-minded...we must also be open-minded and realize that those who oppose the rights of LGBT to actually HAVE rights are not an enemy. They should, instead, be seen as misguided, misinformed or even simply fearful. Do they act hateful and even vengeful...yep, they sure do. It is my opinion that ignorance is not bliss, and fear is the origin or nearly all world evils.
Imagine for a moment if, for your entire life, you were CONVINCED by those who raised you, those you trusted in your priesthood, those who shared your DNA that it IS a choice to be anything other than "normal" in your sexual desires. Your leaders preached that those who make this choice are going to go to hell, that they can choose but refuse because an eternal force of evil has a hold on their mind...build on this for your whole childhood, your teen years, your college years, your early career...
Is it wrong for that person to think that they have to convince others, by whatever means possible, to NOT GO TO HELL...even if it means making laws to prevent this choice. If it means re-education camps for children that announce that they feel they are gay...is it wrong to want them to go to heaven?
Those who oppose LGBT rights are not simply trying to suppress rights; they think they are trying to save people!
Mind you, I don't agree with this at all...however; we can't simply force a very religious person to see things our way any more than they can force a gay man to not be gay. The deep-seated truth of this matter is that you will NEVER force someone to come away from their opinion/view/belief. Instead, you fight with what means you have to gain equality...then you are done, save for a guarded stance against losing the rights you have gained. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 23:56:51
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Folks, let's try to keep this at least somewhat on-topic. We don't need to delve into real-world politics, except as it pertains to the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Now, what if an author like Card who’s vocal about his stand against same-sex relationship gets invited by WotC to write a Realms novel? Will his personal view matter to you? Or will it not, so long as it does not permeate his writing (e.g. As part of a subplot, he writes about a knight falling in love with his male friend, a fellow knight who has been led astray from their chosen path, and then for some reason they are both struck by lightning)?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 00:53:49
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Following comic books can often be a very difficult hobby -- especially when it comes into conflict with serious social issues like this.
I've read comic books written by Card previously -- both before I was aware of his political and social views on particular subjects, and after as well. But it did take me over two years to get back to his work, as I spent much time trying to train my comic book reading mind toward divorcing a writer's real-life viewpoints from his/her fictional work. So long as the work I was exposed to wasn't in any way carrying forth these real-life viewpoints, I could enjoy the fiction as it written. I'm still not fully satisfied with my self-training, and I will undoubtedly always be hesitant when it comes to my approaching books like this.
As it stands now, though, and I don't want this to sound too simplistic, however, but at the end of the day, I'm following a particular book because of particular character. I like Superman and I love reading practically everything that DC publishes for him. So I'll eventually give Card's Superman stories a go if an when they're published... just as I did his Ultimate Iron Man books for Marvel. [Strangely, I don't recall this much controversy brewing back when Card started writing for Marvel.]
...
Now, if a similar situation were to play itself out with either Realms fiction and/or gaming material, I would again employ the same approach I've outlined above. My first love is for the Realms -- and so long as the controversial writer can leave his/her personal viewpoints outside the work, then I feel that I can probably both purchase and read what they have written. Should that change, however, and should, as Dennis noted earlier, these writers "gain a solid foothold" that allows them a platform to start spouting these polarising views they seem to hold dear, then I would seriously have to question my future with both the fiction coming from them and the publishing company itself. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 02:44:00
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I was actually rather surprised at Card's outlook, considering that his novel Treason contains (effectively) transgendered characters - of course, I didn't know about his views until well after I read the book.
While I usually don't discuss the RL topic (as I am admittedly rather indifferent on the subject), it's come up more than a couple of times during campaigns. I never step on a good character concept, and a gay character does not automatically equate to being a bad concept - I'll forgo describing some of the bizarre things that have crossed my gaming table (as I think I already have in a scroll here in the Keep, some time ago), but imagination always trumps real world politics - all my players know to leave their prejudices on my front porch.
But if I had a strong opinion one way or the other, I still doubt I'd let it affect the purchase of Realms material if the author were to have a diametrically opposed viewpoint (though I'll concede that game material is less likely to let unfiltered bias peek through than a novel could).
My favorite movie is Gettysburg - and not even a goofball like Martin Sheen, whom I both roundly dislike and constantly question his understanding of even basic concepts, can ruin the movie for me. I am guessing that Realms material would be much the same. More so, because the Sheen-style omnipresence would be lacking, letting me get on with enjoying the material.
- OMH |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 01:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One of my fave fantasy authors once bashed shared world fiction. That hasn't stopped me from buying that author's novels.
I don't care what an author's personal politics are, as long as they don't wind up in the story. I've read books where I felt like the author was preaching his or her views, and if it comes to dominate the story, then I don't read more by that author.
The Realms has moved past the TSR Code of Ethics, but WotC is still quite cognizant of their target market. I don't think we'll see any real focus on controversial real-world topics; I think it will mostly stay in the background.
One of my favorite authors hates chocolates, while I on the other hand love chocolates. Does it matter in my decision whether to read his books or not? No. One of my favorite singers supported a presidential candidate whom I thought was full of crap. Did I stop buying her albums? No. Such things are easier to “forgive” because they aren’t exactly that personal, that intimate. Being gay is not the whole of me, but it is a significant part of me. So when people attack, denounce, or in any way insinuate malice toward that part of me, then I’d never bother supporting their works.
Perhaps it’s difficult for non-gays to understand. But consider this: what if a self-proclaimed elitist, feminist novelist is vocal about her stand on man (no exception) being evil, dirty, unable to stick to one woman, stupid, possessing the intelligence of a twelve-year-old child, and unfit for fatherhood, and the same woman writes a novel whose subject interests you. Will you still read it?
(for the example given) The difference here as I see it is, no I wouldn't buy that person's book. However, I also wouldn't go to their publisher and tell that publisher that they should quit publishing the person. That's where I think people are stepping over the line. That's what would make me support the person. We're giving too much power in this country to "groups"/"lobbyists", and this country is going to spiral down the drain because of it if we let it continue. I'll stop here, just because I want to not be real negative because I really like candlekeep and value a lot of everyone's opinions here. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 10:50:45
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Far from unexpected.
It would be good to ban books with Wrong opinions - and completely different from the evil of banning books with Proper opinions. Just like pursuing evil fondlementalist madmen who disagree with freudists is not the same as open communists' evil stomping on religious freedom. Or restricting access to copy machines "just in case" to protect inalienable rights of oligopolist middle-man corporations is Completely! Different! than when exactly the same happened in USSR.
That's why it's called "the land of pop-corn"... Pass me some? I'm watchin' this newest Tom&Jerry sequel out there. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 17:49:40
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I can think of 5 or 6 realms authors past or present who have presented fairly polarizing views on various issues(not with great fanfare, but there under the surface) about half of them I agrred with whatever their "cause" is/was and the other half I disagreed.
But it didnt affect my reading either way. Im secure enough in who I am, that I think it highly unlikely that a writer could subvert my views and/or beliefs in any way what so ever. I let there writtin gspeak for it self. (in fact I can think of authors in several genres who have beliefs simular to mine that I dont run out to "support the cause")
Likewise I have no interest in any forum members sexuality or lack thereof(or what religion they practice if any)....it just doesnt matter to me. Doesnt afect how I "see" them in any way what so ever. I know Realms lovers who are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, gay , str8 , bi, pan-sexual, asexual, transsexual.....and a few who dont or wont label themselves in any way(so I dont know either!).....All I know or care about is they are people, Like me who love the realms(or more specifically, "their realms") and thats all I care about here. I really don't come here for sexual or religious (or any ) declarations. I come here to learn about them realms. I just wish the real world would stay the hell out of them. The real world has cost me yet again, more time away from enjoying the realms, and whats much, much worse .....wasted much of what llittle time I have to visit the realms here, thinking about the real world.
FU real World, stay out of my realms. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 00:48:47
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Well met,
Not to wade in here too much, but I wanted firstly to publicly thank Aldrick for his kind words regarding me and my work. That means a lot to me, and I'm glad it means a lot to you too.
I do write about non-straight characters and relationships, but it's not to advance an agenda. It's because those things happen, particularly in Ed's Realms, and because it makes for a cool story. And I'm going to continue to do so, because that's the story I'm telling.
Secondly, I will own the fact that I supported the drive to ask DC to shelve Card's Superman story. Not because I hate the man (I've never met him personally), not because I don't enjoy his work or think he should be silenced (I read Ender's Game, and it was pretty awesome, and Speaker for the Dead is apparently so moving a treatise on religious tolerance as to bring some readers to tears), and not because I want to take a stand for LGBT rights (though I do support such things).
In fact, I just don't want to read a Card Superman story, and it seems there are a lot of people who don't.
I'm not sure it's appropriate for a man who has, by his own words and financial transactions, transmuted himself into a symbol of inequality and intolerance to write about such an iconic symbol of equality and tolerance. That's what Superman is--the opposite of racism, sexism, hate, etc, but rather the belief that people should be free to be who they are and who they want to be. Card writing Superman would just be wrong, and it would taint the character in my eyes and in the history of said character going forward.
It would be like taking an author who absolutely, voraciously, and unwaveringly hates drow elves, action, friendship, and the struggle for tolerance and having him write a Drizzt novel. It just wouldn't work.
Maybe it sounds limiting, but I like to think authors are disposed to tell certain stories well, and certain other stories not well at all. I'd prefer Card stick to writing what he is disposed to write, and leave stories about equality and tolerance to those who genuinely believe in such things and can present them in a positive way.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 26 Mar 2013 00:50:45 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 02:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
In fact, I just don't want to read a Card Superman story, and it seems there are a lot of people who don't.
I'm not sure it's appropriate for a man who has, by his own words and financial transactions, transmuted himself into a symbol of inequality and intolerance to write about such an iconic symbol of equality and tolerance. That's what Superman is--the opposite of racism, sexism, hate, etc, but rather the belief that people should be free to be who they are and who they want to be. Card writing Superman would just be wrong, and it would taint the character in my eyes and in the history of said character going forward.
That's an interesting point, and one I'd also considered myself.
But when I later learned that Card's supposed Superman tale won't actually be set within the context of the New 52, nor will it have any impact on the actual mainstream character, I was a little more acclimated with the possibility of picking this up.
Besides, it's likely that this will be an anthology series. And I really don't like the idea of missing out on all the Superman stories in the one book from other writers whom I do like [and punishing them as a result] simply because I might not like the way Card will write his story in the same book. It just doesn't seem fair to punish other writers for the possible negative take of another writer in the same anthology book. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 14:47:15
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So Superman represents, truth , Justice and the American way. Something all his readers believe in as well? Until someone who might write him has beliefs different than yours.
Interesting. Tolerence for everyone.....as long as their views are the same as yours.
If our founding fathers had refused to be tolerant of their fellow colonists because of differences in beliefs, their would be no America, no superman at all.
and this quote "It would be like taking an author who absolutely, voraciously, and unwaveringly hates drow elves, action, friendship, and the struggle for tolerance and having him write a Drizzt novel. It just wouldn't work."
I had no idea Card unwaveringly hates gays, i thought he was against gay marriage and supported traditional mother/father/child familes...I didnt know he was such a monster. Thanks for enlightening us. Even if thats wasnt you meaning...it's exactly how it reads.
I dont agree with all of Cards stances...I have yet to find a single human being who believes exactly as I do. So what am I to do?
Not support anyone with my money I suppose, and before I starve, because no food vendor is worthy of my support....I should spend all my energy trying to get the Fed Ex guy fired because he is anti second amendment? Because when he was delivering some ammo to my neighbor he told him he didnt think he should be allowed to own guns. Then I can try to get the teacher fired who doesnt grade on a curve, because we all know thats not fair to the kids. And dont forget out soccer coach, who allowed our team to win 12-0 last week.....he's a brute who puts winning over making kids feel good.
I still don't understand how this scroll is realms related....and once again I am frustrated this forum for the realms is hi-jacked away form it's intent. Oh hells....now I have to advocate for the removal of the moderators who allowed this to happen.
the title of this scroll is the realms...its the most inclusive place I have ever read or imagined. Anything goes. It's great. this topic is valid for a superman forum or hell...almost anywhere but here. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 15:19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well met,
snip...
Maybe it sounds limiting, but I like to think authors are disposed to tell certain stories well, and certain other stories not well at all. I'd prefer Card stick to writing what he is disposed to write, and leave stories about equality and tolerance to those who genuinely believe in such things and can present them in a positive way.
Cheers
I hope your wrong there....I can not imagine Neil Gaiman's Editor when presented with American Gods, telling Him you know...your more disposed to childrens books or comics...why dont you leave this kinda fiction for those who are disposed to it.
Or imagine someone who toils for hour upon hour writing technical documents or some such stuf...and they are very good at it....showing an obvious diposition to write non-fiction factual things....shouls he or she not try to write Shared wolrd fiction?
I hope not! I would rathers just write good Stories and let me buy and enjoy them(or dislike them) with out bias.
In all seriousness, I think I read somewhere your a "cat guy" while I have no hate for cats I am terribly allergic, to the point my breathing can almost stop......I would hate to not read your work because your support something that truly makes me ill. So as long as you books are cat dander free....I will overlook your feline predilictions |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 26 Mar 2013 15:22:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 16:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I still don't understand how this scroll is realms related....and once again I am frustrated this forum for the realms is hi-jacked away form it's intent. Oh hells....now I have to advocate for the removal of the moderators who allowed this to happen.
the title of this scroll is the realms...its the most inclusive place I have ever read or imagined. Anything goes. It's great. this topic is valid for a superman forum or hell...almost anywhere but here.
How is this Realms-related? It's in the original post. See the relevant part quoted below.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Now, what if an author like Card who’s vocal about his stand against same-sex relationship gets invited by WotC to write a Realms novel? Will his personal view matter to you? Or will it not, so long as it does not permeate his writing (e.g. As part of a subplot, he writes about a knight falling in love with his male friend, a fellow knight who has been led astray from their chosen path, and then for some reason they are both struck by lightning)?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 16:43:23
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Alright, I wasn't going to post in this thread again. However, I wanted to take a moment to thank Erik for his kind comments. We all know Ed attempted to infuse the Realms with an extremely liberal notion of sexuality. Endeavoring to accurately portray the Realms as intended, should always be commended. I didn't mean to inadvertently imply that Erik was attempting to make any political statements with his portrayals of LGBT characters. I just wanted to clear that up.
I also want to clear up the fact that I don't hate or even dislike Card. I feel that he is completely entitled to whatever point of view that he wants to hold. My stance has nothing to do with personal malice toward the man himself, but rather his point of view - which is, yes, offensive. It is my hope that he lives long enough to repudiate his current stance, and make amends to those he is actively striving to hurt.
However, let's actually view Card's opinion, in his own words.
quote:
Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.
quote:
What these dictator-judges do not seem to understand is that their authority extends only as far as people choose to obey them.
How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn.
Card is making a very clear political statement here. The bolded text is mine. He is not saying, "my religion thinks this, and for my life personally these are the tenets that I follow. However, I respect those who believe and think differently, and consider them to be equal citizens under the law." He is saying, "I will actively consider any government my mortal enemy who disagrees with my stance, and will work to bring down that government in an effort to have my beliefs forced onto others through the law."
So, let's just set the record straight. This guy believes that gay people are not equal citizens under the law, and that we deserve to be criminalized and put into prison. This is not some wishy-washy stance where someone says, "I disagree but respect other people." This is someone who actively wants to segregate, oppress, and punish people who he dislikes.
Now, Card may be an awesome author. Unfortunately, being a bigot doesn't impact your talent or skills in that sense. However, I find it highly unlikely that many people who are actively defending Card would feel the same way if he was talking about any other minority group. It wouldn't matter how talented he is, his career would be over.
No one would be defending the KKK or Neo-Nazi guy, and rightfully so... because there should be social consequences to holding such views. There is a reason when not to long ago the KKK held a rally about an hour where I lived that the local news didn't interview them, called it a "hate rally", and talked only to residents who were offended by it taking place.
People would be shocked, disturbed, and outraged if an open member of the KKK or Neo-Nazi were asked to write Superman. They would rightly be shocked, disturbed, and outraged. DC would never do that, because they know the social consequences for their business were they to do something so foolish. WotC would never do it for the Realms, in fact I think if an open member of the KKK or Neo-Nazi was brought into the shared fiction world of the Realms - no matter how awesome his work - the majority of authors would refuse to write for the setting rather than be associated with him.
I hold no malice toward Card. It's my hope that someday he comes to change his views, and regrets many of the things he's said and written over the years about gay people. My stance is also not a reflection on his work.
Whenever a culture has two opposing values that cannot be reconciled we have a culture war. Card effectively wants to take us back to the days of Alan Turning where gay people were given a choice: prison, lobotomy, electric shock, or castration. His values are opposed to those who hold the values that LGBT people should be considered equal citizens under the law, and afforded all the same dignity, respect, privileges, and benefits as heterosexual people. These two points of view cannot be reconciled, there is no middle ground. In the end, like with other culture war issues - one side is going to be seen as right and the other wrong. The culture will either remain the same or change.
Let's not pretend, though, that gay people don't face social consequences for being gay. Just on the issue of marriage alone we run the risk of having problems like this and our children also suffer like this.
And quite frankly, when you have issues like this facing your family, it's rather insulting to have these issues compared to the difference between someone who prefers coffee over tea. This is not some minor difference of opinion, it's a view that has direct implications for the lives of millions of people and their families. Having our lives and experienced trivialized is insulting.
Okay, deep breath. That turned out more rant-like than I intended when I first started writing. Hopefully, this will be my last post in this thread, as I'm doing my best to keep things from turning into a debate. That being said, being one of the few gay people here on these forums, I felt there needed to be some balance. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 16:48:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I still don't understand how this scroll is realms related....and once again I am frustrated this forum for the realms is hi-jacked away form it's intent. Oh hells....now I have to advocate for the removal of the moderators who allowed this to happen.
the title of this scroll is the realms...its the most inclusive place I have ever read or imagined. Anything goes. It's great. this topic is valid for a superman forum or hell...almost anywhere but here.
How is this Realms-related? It's in the original post. See the relevant part quoted below.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Now, what if an author like Card who’s vocal about his stand against same-sex relationship gets invited by WotC to write a Realms novel? Will his personal view matter to you? Or will it not, so long as it does not permeate his writing (e.g. As part of a subplot, he writes about a knight falling in love with his male friend, a fellow knight who has been led astray from their chosen path, and then for some reason they are both struck by lightning)?
Just as a side note to the above, I want to point out that it was actually Richard Lee Byers himself who shared the link in his thread here. The only thing Dennis did was open it up to a wider discussion. This is not some attempted malice by Dennis to inject politics onto the forums (nor Richard's for that matter), which seems to be the implication.
And considering that DC markets to a similar group of people as WotC, I don't think it's a stretch to ask, 'How would you feel if this situation faced the Realms?'
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Truth and Justice in an Inclusive World
