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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 23:33:19
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...supply game information in a sort of "Index-like" state like how the Volo's Guides do at the end of those books? Even maybe a few game maps and other info?
They're novels based on the game right? Why isn't the marketing genius of what I propose happening in the novels? Granted I know the older novels did provide little maps sometimes but that was it. But I have not seen that at all anymore.
It's pure genius. You give market to both readers and the gamers and even pull in sales from both sides. It's pure win-win. Yet it's not utilized at all.
I am just surprised at that. For as much as WotC wants to prove that the designers are gamers, too, I never see them coming up with anything innovative that reaches across all audiences. I dunno if it's really bad business professionalism or they're just not real gamers to begin with. Even if so, I am saddened to think all their decisions stand on the legs of a "suit" who is both careless about the game as well as a poor business professional.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 00:15:05
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| Heck, many of the Realms books now don't even have MAPS in the front. WTF? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 01:12:28
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Agreed, FR novels with maps detailing the path (or at least the region) of the story are a little more awesome while those without tend to seem a little bland and generic. FR readers who aren't FR gamers might need maps to gain some insight on the landscape, while gamers can do whatever they wish a novel's "canon" map/adventure/plots.
Some of the 1E-era Dragonlance books came with brief character sheets or stat blocks or cards, sometimes printed on the trailing pages, sometimes provided on a removable "cut along the lines" play insert. I personally liked them quite a lot and thought it was cool, even though I didn't think the crunch and fluff details were always consistent with the way the characters were written in the novel itself. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 02:21:29
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quote:
Heck, many of the Realms books now don't even have MAPS in the front
That's why I generally open up a browser window with the big FR map whenever I'm reading. My current wallpaper is the WoT map. I continually look up stuff in the wiki as I read. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
Edited by - Aulduron on 19 Mar 2013 02:22:38 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 15:00:55
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| I think a fantasy book without maps to provide a sense of where things are happening is rather pretentious. It assumes all readers are intimate with the setting, which if your attempting grow your sales is a preposterous notion. anything else would be gravy, but I see maps as esential in the fantasy genre. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 16:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
...supply game information in a sort of "Index-like" state like how the Volo's Guides do at the end of those books? Even maybe a few game maps and other info?
With e-books, this shouldn't be that hard given WotC's considerable archive of gaming products.
It would also be nice to see the small quotes from various Realms personages put back into the novels; at least into Ed's books.
Not having these and some of the things you mentioned really makes Realms novels bland and 'just another book on the [shrinking] shelf at the bookstore.'
I'm guessing they're running really tight margins on cost to publish, so if the choice is between a full, uncut story or a story edited down by three or four pages to cover the cost of a map or extra bits like chapter header quotes, they're choosing to do the former.
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I am just surprised at that. For as much as WotC wants to prove that the designers are gamers, too, I never see them coming up with anything innovative that reaches across all audiences.
WotC doesn't have to prove this. The people who design the games are in fact gamers. Have you ever talked to a game designer in person?
It's just as likely game designers are coming up with the sorts of ideas you're advocating for, but they're being shot down by the bottom line.
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Even if so, I am saddened to think all their decisions stand on the legs of a "suit" who is both careless about the game as well as a poor business professional.
From the days of TSR until now, the people controlling the purse strings have always been in charge.
D&D is part of a business. Businesses exist to make money.
I think it's reasonable to say the degree of direct control has increased and decreased over time (Sean K. Reynolds "The Story of Donut Cores and Forgotten Rums" comes to mind), but unless or until we actually speak to or hear from a 'suit', can any of us declare with any degree of confidence that such a person is a "poor business professional" that doesn't care about the game? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 17:28:27
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Actually, my novel Shadowbane (which was released as an e-book only) has a bunch of gaming material in the back of it. I am one of those authors who really likes to create mechanical stuff that you can use along with the book. I've statted up several of my characters for use in the game, should readers be also gamers like myself.
As for why the practice isn't more widespread, I think there are three reasons:
1) More story (i.e. publishing cost-limit vs. useful data): There are readers who play the game and vice versa, but there are LOTS of readers who don't play the game and would have zero interest in seeing gaming material take up some of their already limited page count. It might even insult them enough to not pick up another book-who here has lamented sample chapters from other novels "clogging up" a book you loved and wanted to go on? And those are other NOVELS you might actually want to read. What if they were advertisements for another media you had no interest in?
As previously suggested, if the choice is between having 5-6 more pages of story and some game material that might be completely irrelevant to a reader, then the story makes more sense.
2) Overreach (i.e. authors aren't necessarily game designers): We may love playing the game, we may have absolutely nothing to do with the game, but many of us aren't game designers at all. It's a whole other skill set. And even if we *do* have game design chops, they might not be up to the level of our writing skills (or worse, they might be better, and then you're given to wonder why we wrote the novel in the first place and didn't just produce the gaming material). And even if we *do* hit that miraculous balance, our editors aren't necessarily RPG editors, which leads to . . .
3) Logistics (i.e. too many cooks in the kitchen): Putting together a book is hard when there's just a writer and an editor involved. You have copy-editors, type-setters, printers, etc. What happens when you add a cartographer, a game designer, game developers, Brand oversight, etc.? All people with hundreds of other tasks and often incredibly busy schedules.
It is a small miracle when the stars align and you get a book with this much STUFF in it. It's awesome, but that doesn't mean we should start expecting that will always happen.
All that said, game material does end up in novels occasionally, and when it does, it's awesome. With the advent of digital publishing, the printing cost issue is going to be significantly less, so that's going to be less of a concern. I personally love writing game design material for books, and I think that's a great route for novels (particularly WotC novels) to go in the future.
Also, I *love* seeing maps in books, but I've learned not to expect them. I pushed really hard to get maps for Depths of Madness and Shadowbane, and I'm glad that worked out.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 19 Mar 2013 17:30:17 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 17:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I'm guessing they're running really tight margins on cost to publish, so if the choice is between a full, uncut story or a story edited down by three or four pages to cover the cost of a map or extra bits like chapter header quotes, they're choosing to do the former.
[...]
It's just as likely game designers are coming up with the sorts of ideas you're advocating for, but they're being shot down by the bottom line.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
It's sad that things are this tight.
But you've gotta believe that the technology is there to provide detailed indices, glossaries, personae dramatis, and maps for every book (sourcebook and novel), and to cross-reference and hyper-link them in e-books, and to turn all of the company's library into a semi-wiki in terms of inter-connectedness and what-not. It's right there, on the tip of my tongue; I can virtually taste it! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 03:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As previously suggested, if the choice is between having 5-6 more pages of story and some game material that might be completely irrelevant to a reader, then the story makes more sense.
I wish they'd taken this approach with the 3.x sourcebooks...  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Mar 2013 03:18:00 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 04:16:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As previously suggested, if the choice is between having 5-6 more pages of story and some game material that might be completely irrelevant to a reader, then the story makes more sense.
I wish they'd taken this approach with the 3.x sourcebooks...
Especially toward the end of the 3e-era... when a great many sourcebooks often had multiple pages of advertising and/or those bizarre "Encounters" pages. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 04:38:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As previously suggested, if the choice is between having 5-6 more pages of story and some game material that might be completely irrelevant to a reader, then the story makes more sense.
I wish they'd taken this approach with the 3.x sourcebooks...
Especially toward the end of the 3e-era... when a great many sourcebooks often had multiple pages of advertising and/or those bizarre "Encounters" pages.
Oh ye dancing gods, I hated those! The intent was sound, but the execution was flawed -- instead of making you flip back and forth to run an encounter, you had to flip back and forth to see the room description, to go to the next room, etc.
Back on topic, I personally like it when a book has a map -- so I can see where the action is -- and a glossary/Dramatis Personae section, so I can look up unfamiliar terms or refresh my mind on certain named individuals. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4447 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 04:51:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Actually, my novel Shadowbane (which was released as an e-book only) has a bunch of gaming material in the back of it. I am one of those authors who really likes to create mechanical stuff that you can use along with the book. I've statted up several of my characters for use in the game, should readers be also gamers like myself.
I was just going to mention this book, lol! Imagin my suprise as I finished Shaodwbane and I'm going through the back to find 4E monster write ups and stuff. On my Kindle no less! Thanks, BTW!  |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 15:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I was just going to mention this book, lol! Imagin my suprise as I finished Shaodwbane and I'm going through the back to find 4E monster write ups and stuff. On my Kindle no less! Thanks, BTW!
Don't mention it. 
Also, I've posted a bit of stuff on my website about the Shadowbane characters, specifically on the Free Stuff section. (Did I mention free?)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 17:00:31
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| I think many people read Forgotten Realms novels who have no interest in playing Dungeons and Dragons. But I like maps. Maps, always! |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 02:03:40
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| I haven't played D&D in years, but having a map helps me to visualize what I'm reading. I especially like a map of large battle grounds. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 02:32:05
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| All novels that I have liked the most have always had a map in them...always. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 11:43:14
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| I have never really thought about it before. I mean maps are cool and help you get your bearings but i don't think they are essential for every novel. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 15:50:09
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| I like maps in novels. They add a little more to the experience of reading the book. Many is the time that I have traced the characters journey using the little map at the front of the book. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 16:07:09
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Maps are good, but I don't consider them a requirement for me to like a book. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 03:49:50
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| The full color map of Westgate in Masquerades with a key detailing all the important locations was amazing, top notch! All of the Realms novels should aspire to such detail, but then Jeff Grubb was a master at his craft and helped Ed do all those city maps in the hardcover Forgotten Realms Adventures. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 03:59:34
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| Maps aren't a requirement; but it something "more" that those without them simply don't have. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 22:35:24
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| One of the best maps I've found in a novel was in the 1994 edition of Crown of Fire: a full color map that filled two pages, starting with the back side of the front cover and extending onto the first physical page of the book. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Why don't the FR Novels...
