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 Is There a Future for the Eminence? (Spoilers)
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  08:23:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic

In case you accidentally clicked on the link without reading the spoiler warning, let me warn you again: the following excerpts and discussion reveal major spoilers to Prophet of the Dead.


This thread used to be titled Is He Really Dead? The pronoun refers to Lod. But since Richard already answered that question, we might as well discuss if there's a future for Lod's legacy—or not.

Lod's Description:
quote:
The following is lifted from page 148 of Prophet of the Dead:

The commander of the Eminence was a divided being like a centaur. His maker has reshaped the top part of him into something very like the skeletal remains of the top half of a human being, arms, hands, and all. The bottom part remained overtly reptilian, but longer and heavier than one would expect of even a naga, the bones still sheathed in muscle and scales with a ridge of jagged spikes along the top.


Lod's Vision:
quote:
The following is lifted from page 44:

“Lod envisioned a great fraternity of the undead,” Sarshethrian said. “It would find those who were thralls and set them free. It would take those condemned to mindlessness and lift them into sentience. Ultimately, it would set the undead above the living to hunt wherever, however, and whoever they wished, without fear of retaliation.”

. . . “To that end, we invented more new wizardry, unearthed ancient secrets, and I taught him to traverse the deathways. My home, you see, was a web of secret paths that would enable him to go virtually anywhere to recruit new followers, instruct old ones, and reach any living realm he wished to assail, even one on the far side of an ocean.”



Lod's Challenge:
quote:
The following is lifted from page 46:

Jhesri cocked her head. “It's poor and backward, certainly, and those qualities ought to make it an easy conquest. But the Thayans have never found it so.”

Sarshethrian smiled. “What I was getting at is that it's the country where the mortal and fey worlds mingle more than any other. I don't know why, and at this point, neither does Lod. But he no doubt believes that given time and free rein, he can wring unique and potent magic from the land, and I imagine he's right.

“It's also a country that shares a border with those Thayans you mentioned, folk governed by necromancers and undead grandees who have good reason to be content with the world as it is. Lod will never free any zombie and wraith from bondage or persuade every vampire and lich to join him as long Thay stands as an alternative to his vision. Control of a neighboring land will help him pursue the task of bringing it down.”

Remembering what it was like to fight the legions of Thay with their well-trained troops, formidable mages, and tamed demons, Jhesri smiled a crooked smile. “I wish him luck with that.”



Lod's View on the Leadership of the Eminence:
quote:
The following is lifted from page 221:

“The Eminence of Aurant has no commander,” Lod replied. “All who belong are equal. Still, someone had to create it, and someone has to guide the campaigns that will fulfill its destiny.”
What a long and winded way of saying “The Eminence has no leader but me.”

And finally, Lod's Death:
quote:
The following is lifted from pages 324–325:

The pieces of rib Aoth had blasted away floated through the air toward their former positions.

But then wind screamed, flung snow across the battlefield, and tossed Aoth onto his side. It caught the rib fragments too and swept them away despite the force animating them.

Lod twisted to look into the wind and no doubt find its source. He raised his hands to start a spell. But meanwhile, the wind screamed louder still. The naga’s left arm snapped loose and blew away, and the right followed a heartbeat later.

But even that didn’t stop the bone naga’s conjuring. He roared words of malediction that made Aoth’s body feel as heavy as lead—his heart pounded as if it were trying to tear itself apart, and his ears ached as if he were deep underwater. Aoth strained to croak out a spell but couldn’t control his breathing.

Fortunately, Jhesrhi’s voice was chanting as vehemently as Lod’s. At her behest, the wind howled even louder until it drowned out both of them. Then Lod’s entire upper body burst apart into tumbling bones, and the snake part flopped down on the ground.

Although it didn’t die entirely, the wind ebbed. Feeling stronger than he had a moment before, Aoth floundered to his feet, recovered his spear, and found Lod’s fallen skull. The naga’s bones no longer showed any signs of wanting to reassemble themselves, but he smashed them anyway.

My thoughts:

Is Lod really dead? For someone who cheated death thrice (once from his former master, and twice from his ex-ally Sarshethrian), it’s possible he did it again the fourth time via contingency magic.

If he’s still alive, how will he able to rebuild his army and how long will it take? Will he even have a chance to, given that Thay has probably learned already of his failure in Rashemen and might do everything in its power to prevent the Eminence from rising again?

If he’s utterly destroyed, who is likely to take his place? And what measure will the new leader do so as not to repeat his predecessor’s debacle?

Does the Eminence of Aurant have a future at all?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 22 Mar 2013 18:30:39

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6572 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  09:49:47  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Eminence of Araunt was one of the things I liked about the 4E Realms. It's a shame that the novelists can't help themselves but needlessly destroy/remove potentially major protagonists like Lod from the setting. Troy Denning did the same thing with the Lords Who Sleep in "Beyond the High Road".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  10:36:34  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The Eminence of Araunt was one of the things I liked about the 4E Realms. It's a shame that the novelists can't help themselves but needlessly destroy/remove potentially major protagonists like Lod from the setting. Troy Denning did the same thing with the Lords Who Sleep in "Beyond the High Road".

-- George Krashos




I think it's almost a fetish for most writers... they get a little twisted pleasure from knocking them off :P
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  10:37:14  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I loved the book and the whole series. Though I must say Lod's (potentially permanent) destruction surprised me. It's worth noting, however, that Lod mentioned he had unearthed some rare new necromantic lore during the founding days of the Eminence and later. So it's still possible that somehow he'd managed to avert annihilation. Liches have phylacteries. A bone naga who commands liches and all manner of undead might have something similar stashed somewhere—a "mind repository."

Every beginning has an end.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  11:13:29  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally it looked like he was really dead to me. Even if he survived a lot of the strongest members of the Eminence were destroyed and it will be many years if indeed ever before they pose a serious threat again.
As for the issue about killing off villains you can hardly claim that there is a shortage of those in the realms.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  12:56:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From the moment we 'met' him, Lod has been dead; what has changed?

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The Eminence of Araunt was one of the things I liked about the 4E Realms. It's a shame that the novelists can't help themselves but needlessly destroy/remove potentially major protagonists like Lod from the setting. Troy Denning did the same thing with the Lords Who Sleep in "Beyond the High Road".

-- George Krashos
AGREED

Obviously everything in the setting are THEIR toys... we should just walk away and let them play with them themselves.

The Warlock Knights of Vassa were another thing I liked. I hope they at least leave them alone. Vassa is a lot more useful in 4e then it ever was before (unless you actually ran those ridiculous adventures that were never meant to be in The Realms in the first place).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Mar 2013 12:57:09
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  13:18:26  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

He's an undead. Duh. When I used the word “dead” in the title, I was expecting people to get what it meant in the context. It seems not all got what it meant. Can someone please volunteer to explain such difficult term to MT?

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

Personally it looked like he was really dead to me. Even if he survived a lot of the strongest members of the Eminence were destroyed and it will be many years if indeed ever before they pose a serious threat again.
Perhaps. But given that Sarshetrian was destroyed, leaving the shadow creatures (which were in some manner undead as well) in the deathways “masterless,” and Lod still possessed the knowledge to traverse his ex-ally’s dominion, then perhaps he can “recruit” those creatures.

Every beginning has an end.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  14:02:10  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But those creatures were mostly mindless monstrosities, more related to devils than undead.
At the most you could use them as expendable cannon fodder but given in weakened state the Eminence will need stealth and guile to survive so I dont see them of being much help.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  14:05:19  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On a related note how stupid were the Witches of Rashemen to simply bury all the durthans in some sort of "honorable" mass graves. I mean seriously even if you discount the fact that they were not aware of the Eminence at that point, they still live next to Thay! Ruled over by one of the greatest of necromancers Szaaz Tam. It was just asking for trouble.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  14:34:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

On a related note how stupid were the Witches of Rashemen to simply bury all the durthans in some sort of "honorable" mass graves. I mean seriously even if you discount the fact that they were not aware of the Eminence at that point, they still live next to Thay! Ruled over by one of the greatest of necromancers Szaaz Tam. It was just asking for trouble.
They still acknowledged the durthans as their sisters. They used to be one of them. It’s one thing to destroy your enemies not related to you by blood, customs, and traditions, and another to do the same to those who used to be your kin. It’s likely also that they believed their land’s protection against necromancy, coupled with their own brand of magic, made raising their dead sisters impossible.

Every beginning has an end.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2013 :  18:58:47  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm thinking we should have a crossover where the Brotherhood of the Griffon dukes it out with Bregan D'aerthe. Who has more plot armor, I wonder?
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_Jarlaxle_
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Germany
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Posted - 18 Mar 2013 :  09:42:49  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We can't know if he has some contingencies in place or maybe something like a phylactery back in his Homeland.

And as far as I see it the eminence didn't bring that many troops to rashemen besides the two guys whose name I forgott which reanimated all the undead localy.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2013 :  11:10:57  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

We can't know if he has some contingencies in place or maybe something like a phylactery back in his Homeland.

And as far as I see it the eminence didn't bring that many troops to rashemen besides the two guys whose name I forgott which reanimated all the undead localy.


Well actually in Prophet of the Dead of he brings a large contingent of his strongest followers with him to Rashmen and they all pretty much get wiped out.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2013 :  11:28:07  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

On a related note how stupid were the Witches of Rashemen to simply bury all the durthans in some sort of "honorable" mass graves. I mean seriously even if you discount the fact that they were not aware of the Eminence at that point, they still live next to Thay! Ruled over by one of the greatest of necromancers Szaaz Tam. It was just asking for trouble.
They still acknowledged the durthans as their sisters. They used to be one of them. It’s one thing to destroy your enemies not related to you by blood, customs, and traditions, and another to do the same to those who used to be your kin. It’s likely also that they believed their land’s protection against necromancy, coupled with their own brand of magic, made raising their dead sisters impossible.



It is one thing for normal people to want to bury their kin in accordance with the traditions of the land but it is quite another issue entirely when those "sisters" happen to be a rebellious group of evil witches who want to conquer and enslave everything and as for the protection of the land, well that was just arrogance on their part I don't see how you could prevent old Tam from raising the dead wherever he wants to especially when this vaunted protection didn't even work against one or two agents of the Eminence.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2013 :  11:31:00  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

We can't know if he has some contingencies in place or maybe something like a phylactery back in his Homeland.

And as far as I see it the eminence didn't bring that many troops to rashemen besides the two guys whose name I forgott which reanimated all the undead localy.
Well actually in Prophet of the Dead of he brings a large contingent of his strongest followers with him to Rashmen and they all pretty much get wiped out.
On one hand, Lod might have Plan B in place in case some unforeseen event prevented them from seizing Rashemen. On the other hand, judging by Sarshetrian's talk with Jhesri, Lod might have underestimated the Rashemi, especially the witches.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2013 :  11:52:46  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

On a related note how stupid were the Witches of Rashemen to simply bury all the durthans in some sort of "honorable" mass graves. I mean seriously even if you discount the fact that they were not aware of the Eminence at that point, they still live next to Thay! Ruled over by one of the greatest of necromancers Szaaz Tam. It was just asking for trouble.
They still acknowledged the durthans as their sisters. They used to be one of them. It’s one thing to destroy your enemies not related to you by blood, customs, and traditions, and another to do the same to those who used to be your kin. It’s likely also that they believed their land’s protection against necromancy, coupled with their own brand of magic, made raising their dead sisters impossible.
It is one thing for normal people to want to bury their kin in accordance with the traditions of the land but it is quite another issue entirely when those "sisters" happen to be a rebellious group of evil witches who want to conquer and enslave everything.
I don’t know. Perhaps it’s some kind of gesture of “forgiveness” or some twisted version of honor (you know, like the one displayed by the Kelewans during their invasion in Crydee).

quote:
and as for the protection of the land, well that was just arrogance on their part I don't see how you could prevent old Tam from raising the dead wherever he wants to especially when this vaunted protection didn't even work against one or two agents of the Eminence.
They didn’t think it likely that Szass Tam could slip a necromancer into their land to raise their dead sisters. As for the patchwork man who did the raising, well, the witches didn’t know that the deathways existed, that one of its dimensional doors led straight to Rashemen.

Some may see it as arrogance. Others can claim it's faith—faith in the Three who, as far they were concerned, have never left them to ruin.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 18 Mar 2013 15:37:52
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2013 :  15:14:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


He's an undead. Duh. When I used the word “dead” in the title, I was expecting people to get what it meant in the context. It seems not all got what it meant. Can someone please volunteer to explain such difficult term to MT?
No need to be insulting.

In a D&D setting where everyone can come back to life, people merely go 'somewhere else' when they DO die, and the whole thing is filled with things like vampires and liches (etc), can you please explain to me what is the difference between 'death' and 'undeath' in the D&D universe? It seems to me that its just a matter of how 'alive' the host body is at the time, and even that is suspect (there may very well be much more 'life' going on inside a corpse). A body isn't a person, its just a meat-sack... one that may or may not be 'occupied'.

NOTHING in D&D is ever truly dead... its just 'on vacation' for awhile. Lod has always been (since we've known him) in an 'alternate state' then alive, and he still is... he just needs a new body (or can even be an incorporeal ghost now) to return. Even if he can't return to the material plane for whatever reason (for now), he is still somewhere.

It could even be similar to how fiends are treated when they are 'banished' - maybe he can't return for a century (or whatever the current ruling is there). And even then there are loopholes, if someone powerful enough manages to summon him. Look at the events surrounding the Ghost King - that was an odd bit of characteromancy.

So he can return to true life (in his original form), return as he was, or his spirit could inhabit a new form (be it dead or alive), similar to how Suel liches behave. Speculating on how they can bring him back is like saying "come up with every plausible explanation in the universe". If they want him back, he'll be back. If not, he'll be gone forever. There really are no rules at all where stuff like this is concerned.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
579 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2013 :  15:54:48  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil


Well actually in Prophet of the Dead of he brings a large contingent of his strongest followers with him to Rashmen and they all pretty much get wiped out.


But we don't know how large that group was compared to what the eminance has left in their Homelands and all the liches will Regenerate because no one destroyed their phylactories. All the other undead can probbably be replaced without much effort too.
So if Lod really was not destroyed those events most likely were only a set back in their plans to conquer rashemen but not to eminance at a whole.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2013 :  12:33:18  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil


Well actually in Prophet of the Dead of he brings a large contingent of his strongest followers with him to Rashmen and they all pretty much get wiped out.


But we don't know how large that group was compared to what the eminance has left in their Homelands and all the liches will Regenerate because no one destroyed their phylactories. All the other undead can probbably be replaced without much effort too.
So if Lod really was not destroyed those events most likely were only a set back in their plans to conquer rashemen but not to eminance at a whole.



Yes but this will depend on whether they have the time of rebuild because surely an organisation like this will have all sorts of enemies especially necromancers.
And if Lod is truly dead then without their charismatic prophet and his coterie the organisation will likely splinter into various factions thanks to their " egalitarian" structure.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2013 :  13:10:39  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I suppose the only way for the Eminence to go on is if Lod did survive the battle in Rashemen. Charisma aside, there seems to be no single individual whose firepower and knowledge matches his—that’s because he made sure of that. ‘Tis also the reason he killed Sarshetrian, the only being in the Eminence (or at least he used to be) who could challenge his “leadership.” As I pointed above, even if he “convinced” his followers that the Eminence has no leader, he still assumed that role. Without him around, there’s bound to be chaos or division within the group that would ultimately lead to its dissolution.

Every beginning has an end.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2013 :  15:03:32  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dont even know who Lod is/was.......but I would love the majority of deaths(talking about main characters) in the novels to be permanent. At thhis point a realms novel or triolgy that didnt re-boot its main characters who catch my eye and give me interest. And thats not me poo-pooing anyone favorite characters......it just since the spellplague, it is more prevalent.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 19 Mar 2013 15:04:40
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2013 :  17:35:41  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, some of those early posts are REALLY judgmental. You guys have NO IDEA what RLB's motivation might be, or the negotiations behind the scenes, etc. For all we know, WotC might have insisted RLB kill this character, and he fought tooth-and-nail not to do so, then finally had to give in because at least he could do it "well." It's like when Bob was hired to kill Chewbacca against his own protests, and everyone got furious at him for being so callous as to dare kill one of their characters.

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I think it's almost a fetish for most writers... they get a little twisted pleasure from knocking them off :P
This line in particular is rather offensive to me. I can (and always do) only speak for myself, but I take no pleasure in killing off characters. If I didn't get emotionally invested in my characters--particularly when they're significant, powerful, important ones--I wouldn't write about them. Period.

If a character dies in one of my books, it's for one of four reasons: 1) There will be an emotional impact to my readers, 2) The character's story is told and it's either this or wane in significance and become less awesome, 3) I need to kill someone to make a point (usually about another character, situation, or threat), or 4) I'm bored with that character. I think something similar holds true for "most writers."

That said, characters exist in a fantasy world in order to be born, live, fight, do things, and die. It happens. If death never happens to anyone, then what's the point?

Also, taking a step back to consider, this might be a move to minimize the perceived damage to the Realms from the 4e changes, i.e., excising those elements that don't hearken back to the old Realms.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 19 Mar 2013 17:39:42
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2013 :  14:10:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And more to my point - being as Erik just posted here - HIS first novel character was already dead as well when we met him, thus proving my point.

Death is completely meaningless in the D&Dverse.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Mar 2013 14:14:12
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2013 :  14:57:47  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And more to my point - being as Erik just posted here - HIS first novel character was already dead as well when we met him, thus proving my point.

Death is completely meaningless in the D&Dverse.
I see your point, MT, but . . .

1) It's debatable whether my character was/is dead or not.

2) Death isn't *completely* meaningless, but it can easily be undercut.

As I see it, the transition into 4e was partly an attempt to make death meaningful: to let a lot of characters die and NOT come back, and allow their deaths to have that sort of emotional effect that the death of a beloved character can have. And we all know how THAT turned out.

I make no claims that it was handled correctly, but it's telling when the first feedback WotC gets is "OMG bring back all the characters now!"

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2013 :  18:33:33  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I asked Richard if Lod's really dead for good and if it's his decision to kill him or WotC's. Here's his reply:

quote:
Dennis: The answers to your two-part question.

1. Yes, as far as I'm concerned. In a shared world, people can come in after you and undo what you did, but I doubt that will happen in this case.

2. My idea. Of course, WotC had to okay it.

Hence, the change of the thread's title.

Every beginning has an end.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11494 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2013 :  01:51:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

On a related note how stupid were the Witches of Rashemen to simply bury all the durthans in some sort of "honorable" mass graves. I mean seriously even if you discount the fact that they were not aware of the Eminence at that point, they still live next to Thay! Ruled over by one of the greatest of necromancers Szaaz Tam. It was just asking for trouble.



The Durthans were still Wychlaran, granted with a different vision for Rashemen. It would have been sacreligious to have desecrated their bodies. I was very sad to see them "wiped out", because I always liked their idea (i.e. another sect of witches in Rashemen... in truth, they need a few more). Say what you like about their methods, their interests were in protecting Rashemen and its people. Now, once they got hooked up with the Eminence (which was after their people had betrayed them to their death by the way), their outlook on things got skewed.

Personally, I'd like to at least see a third faction of wychlaran that I'm thinking of naming the "telthran". I'd previously been discussing ideas for "dual-divine theurges" in another thread, and one idea that came to mind was a type of Hathran that learns magic as a spirit shaman and a druid (yeah, sounds stupid right? They both have the same spell list). Anyway, I'm thinking instead of basically doubling their spell lists and leaving them 3 levels behind in spellcasting in both, just let them be a level behind (i.e. get into the class with just 1st lvl spirit shaman/3rd druid), but the class gives them 1 extra spell per spell level that can be cast spontaneously like a spirit shaman (in addition to +1 spellcasting level at each prestige class level). Also, the class combines with a druid's animal companion ability and allows said animal companion to be a telthor, so long as the animal companion is the same as the character's spirit guide animal. Finally, at some point the telthran gains the assistance of an intelligent telthor spirit (like a cohort, but say 4-6 levels behind the character).... for instance an old Rashemi hero warrior or the spirit of a Rashemi Old One/vremyonni or the spirit of a Hathran priestess, etc...

Another option here would be possibly allowing these telthrans to combine say arcane magic and a spirit shaman level. The idea here would be say a wizard with a familiar, and that familiar becoming a telthor and advancing like a druid's animal companion. The extra spell per spell level would be from either the druid's spell list or the wizard's spell list (or maybe just from the wizard's spell list). That might be a little too powerful though.

In return they give up the Hathran circle magic, etc....

Anyway, sorry for the side trek, but my mind went there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 23 Mar 2013 :  02:08:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On whether Lod is dead, there's many ways we could see him still be alive. Truthfully, I saw him die, and one of my first thoughts were.... and he goes back to his phylactery (yeah, I know he's not a lich.... I'm going with he's a weird undeady guy who has studied ancient mysteries... so he's got a phylactery of some sort). I know you say RLB thinks he's dead, but personally I don't think he is. He suffered a setback, nothing more. Now, is he trapped in his phylactery for a time? Does he need a new body? Speaking of bodies... this is the first I'd read of what Lod looked like, and personally.... did anyone else automatically go "yuan-ti lich" or "male lamia noble lich"? I didn't find him all that special for as much as he was supposed to be different. In fact, is his body weird BECAUSE he constructs his replacement bodies or something?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Dennis
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Posted - 23 Mar 2013 :  05:02:30  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

He didn’t “construct” his body replacements; his former master did. Anyway, as to his death, it’s just as I said before: he had liches in their group and he had unearthed some rare necromantic lore that helped empower his magical arsenal. It wouldn’t be a wonder if he somehow managed to create a phylactery of his own, either through the knowledge imparted by his own liches or through the books he hoarded.

Every beginning has an end.
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Lilianviaten
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Posted - 23 Mar 2013 :  05:59:53  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What bothers me about Lod's death isn't the loss of his character so much. He's cool, but there is no shortage of interesting villains (particularly undead magic users) within the Realms. Rather, what bothers me is that Aoth and the Brotherhood of the Griffon are like Jarlaxle and Bregan D'aerthe on steroids. We have now seen in Chessenta, Thay, and Rashemen how they can just come into a region, alter the power structure to their liking, and then go on their merry way. I would think some of the power players in the Realms might take measures to end Aoth's meddling.
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Dennis
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Posted - 23 Mar 2013 :  06:09:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Probably you forgot that it wasn't just the Brotherhood that stopped the Eminence. Without Yhelbrunna, Sarshetrian, Bez's company, and the berserkers, it would have been no-win situation for them. In fact, Sarshetrian drained a considerable amount and number of powerful spells from Lod's arsenal. Had he not meddled, Lod would have been in his full power facing the hodgepodge army of Rashemen, and he would have squashed Aoth with scarcely an effort.

Every beginning has an end.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 23 Mar 2013 :  12:19:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

What bothers me about Lod's death isn't the loss of his character so much. He's cool, but there is no shortage of interesting villains (particularly undead magic users) within the Realms. Rather, what bothers me is that Aoth and the Brotherhood of the Griffon are like Jarlaxle and Bregan D'aerthe on steroids. We have now seen in Chessenta, Thay, and Rashemen how they can just come into a region, alter the power structure to their liking, and then go on their merry way. I would think some of the power players in the Realms might take measures to end Aoth's meddling.



On them coming into an area and changing things.... that's what mercenaries do. What might happen would be other mercenaries see their winning streak and target the leaders... which is exactly what happened in these last two books.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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