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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 19:49:24
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Playing with alternative/parallel realms in my head, this idea is one of them...
What if the first Enclave of Nethril to return was not the dark city of Shade (I forget it's realms name), it was the bright city of Opus/Selunarra?
What effects would this have on the realms? Would they try to restore Nethril like the Shade? But using less invasive methods? How would it effect surrounding lands? How would it shift the balance between Shar and Mystra/Selune team up? Would it cause Shar to trigger the Spellplague earlier then before?
Thoughts, comments, constructive flames?
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 21:09:57
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Here are my thoughts, lifted from a prior discussion on Selunarra:
I see Selunarra picking out a mostly empty area of the North and claiming it for themselves. It wouldn't be for conquest, as much as giving them a place to use for producing food and goods. The city itself would prolly wander quite a bit, within its chosen territory.
Individual Selunarrans would protect that area, but also work directly with local power groups like the Harpers. The city would officially be friendly to the Lords' Alliance and the Harpers, though they wouldn't join the former. The Harpers, they'd be friendly to and offer support, maybe even allowing a permanent Harper presence. But it would be like the Harpers and the Lords of Waterdeep -- they would support each other, for the common good, but there would also be times the locals would have to tell the Harpers that a particular Harper goal was not a shared goal, and that it would be a Harper-only effort.
I see the Selunarrans as opposing the Shades, the Zhents, and other evil power groups, but mostly when those groups were acting in the area. Zhents attacking Shadowdale wouldn't be a concern, for example. The Selunarrans would go out of their way to oppose the Shades, but it would only be when the Shades were trying to pull something that negatively impacted others, and it would be as indirect (or at the least, not overt) as possible. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 21:58:18
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In this scenario, the Anauroch is empty and vacant since Shade has yet to come to the realms, so it's open relatively.
I can see them restore it like the Shade, since restoring the desert to life is neither Evil nor Good in the grand schemes of things. The difference is Selunarra is more likely to aid the near-by kingdoms from the weather damages then Shade was. Whether the kingdoms except this is also unknown.
The fact the Selunarra worship gods which are more open to their neighbours then the Shades, even if it is different traditions, makes opening friendships more likely. Remember they worship Selune and a few Mystra, who are welcome in most kingdoms in Faerun. Not Shar who is blacklisted in all kingdoms which are not open to her worship. In fact, Shar orders her worshipers to tear down all governments which do not allow her church. Which explains why governments blacklist her church.
It also means this Enclave could have help from the churchs of Selune and Mystra, as well as faiths and organizations allied to them. Unlike Shade which was mostly isolated.
So while morals might hold back the Selunarra from advancing in the ways the Shades have, the fact they can make friends and allies means the expansion and growth of the Enclave is likely to equal to or better then that of the Shades.
Of course it also opens up powerful foes against the city.
The Scenario also has slight effect on Shade. Wooly said that Selunarra in Regular Realms would set up shop in another land, like the North. With the Church of Selune's aid, I can see this happening as they could smooth things over with the neighbours even given the bad Netherese PR cause by the Shades.
In RotAW Selunarra Realms, Shade has a problem as they have no smoothing over aid and would have to find an ally/conquorer another land. One with a strong Shar presence or a presence which Shar could be comfortable in. Since it is likely the Selunarra have taken the Anauroch.
Quick thoughts off my head is The Bane dominated Moonsea, where Bane and Shar come to an agreement. Perhaps even a marriage of convience where both Parties are trying to steal the power of the other even as they sleep with each other... and one eye open while sleeping. Loviator could then become the 'Mistress of Bane', in a bit of fun word play.
Or Shar could try to fortify Wheloon, using Shade to build a minor nation out of the surrounding Cormyr to make her nation. The chaos and adventures from that could fill an entire campaign, nudge nudge wink wink. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 22:51:56
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| Selunarra was one of the less impressive ideas that came about for surviving Netherese enclaves - rubbed me wrong. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 02:13:51
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I think it's also important to consider the mindset of the city's natives.
If I were to run this kind of scenario in my Realms, then I'd need to address this facet of their motives. Since, perhaps, the current generation of inhabitants of Opus, the aasimar [descended from the natives of the enclave], might simply have come to adopt a mindset similar to that of other celestial types. And are now, thus, as a result less interested in Torilian matters -- instead focusing on events across the Gates of the Moon.
Something to cogitate on, I suppose. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 13:14:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think it's also important to consider the mindset of the city's natives.
If I were to run this kind of scenario in my Realms, then I'd need to address this facet of their motives. Since, perhaps, the current generation of inhabitants of Opus, the aasimar [descended from the natives of the enclave], might simply have come to adopt a mindset similar to that of other celestial types. And are now, thus, as a result less interested in Torilian matters -- instead focusing on events across the Gates of the Moon.
Something to cogitate on, I suppose.
I would have to disagree with your view of their mindset from what few materials I have and have read.
The Selunarran, like the Shades, have sent or allowed agents/citizens to Toril to view and see how Toril has changed. Which hints at an interest in the world rather then planar disattachment.
I do see the Selunarran and the Shades have views of the world like how humans differ on Logging in the realms.
Some humans see a forest as a wood pile for them to exploit for their own gain. This is the Shade mindset.
Some humans and most if not all elves, see a forest like a farm. Where you cut and harvest sick/dying wood as well as clear debris so the rest of the forest can grow strong for future generations. I can see the Selunarran (with links to Selune (who may also be an elven goddess, at least in 4ed) and the Gates link to the Feywild and the Astral plane of the Elven Gods), with this mindset.
Or the Shade don't care what impact they have on Toril but the Selunarrans are more likely to want to avoid causing damaging impacts on the Realms.
As such, unless it is done suddenly and/or unexpectedly, I can see the Selunarrans seeking to find their moment to return when all of the stars align.
So if Opus replaces Shade, it would have to be of an accident or cause by a major need within a short period of time to decide what to do.
Of course in normal realms, where Shade came first, they know Shade is strong and strengthened by their time on Toril. At least two flying Enclaves and plus the lands of Netheril returned as well as Sembia. They would face major deaths given the power structure now.
So if it was to return in Fourth, they would have to make sure their foothold would be as strong as it could be to save themselves and to fight the Shade.
Remember, Selunarra is a Netherese Enclave with some from that time possibly still alive which majorly worships Selune. The Shades would attack it to get the secrets of Netheril it holds no matter what and/or til eliminate all Selune worshipers for the glory of Shar. Selunarra has a big target on it's back if it returns, or even if it is discovered by the Shades, so it has to have it's ducks in a row for either event. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 09 Mar 2013 13:24:42 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 13:59:37
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[/quote]
Remember, Selunarra is a Netherese Enclave with some from that time possibly still alive which majorly worships Selune. The Shades would attack it to get the secrets of Netheril it holds no matter what and/or til eliminate all Selune worshipers for the glory of Shar. Selunarra has a big target on it's back if it returns, or even if it is discovered by the Shades, so it has to have it's ducks in a row for either event.
[/quote]
I'd definitely dispute this. Shade is very powerful, and has accomplished great strides toward its goals. However, it is alone and it has made enemies of virtually everyone surrounding them: the Zhentarim power structure in the Moonsea region, the Dales, the elves (In Evereska and Myth Drannor and the High Forest), the remaining Bedine below, Cormyr to the south, and the realms of the North and the Sword Coast who suffered from their attempts to melt the high ice. Add to this their more covert enemies, Larloch and the other various Netherese survivors, the Red Wizards, the Harpers, the Moonstars, as well as whatever phaerimm still remain.
Given this, I don't think anyone in their right mind would conclude that Shade is in a great position to pick a fight with another group of Netherese survivors, whose diametric opposition in nature (as in Selune vs. Shar) would make them immediately prepared to deal with shadow magic and the other strengths of Shade.
I would wager that Telemont would approach Opus cautiously and offer alliance, even if it is tentative and fragile, based on nothing more than Opus' status as a Netherese enclave. Remember that their primary long term goal is the restoration of Netheril, where all the enclaves were rivals with each other, so this would be a step toward that goal.
Further, while Shade owes some allegiance to Shar, it is by no means absolute. Telemont suffers the religion for the power it offers, but would never risk all out war for the greater glory of Shar. Such a holy war would also certainly draw in support from the churches of Mystra (to whom Shar's shadow weave is a direct affront) and Amaunator/Lathander (who have already got skin in the game against Shar and her Shade followers). |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 14:16:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Remember, Selunarra is a Netherese Enclave with some from that time possibly still alive which majorly worships Selune. The Shades would attack it to get the secrets of Netheril it holds no matter what and/or til eliminate all Selune worshipers for the glory of Shar. Selunarra has a big target on it's back if it returns, or even if it is discovered by the Shades, so it has to have it's ducks in a row for either event.
I'd definitely dispute this. Shade is very powerful, and has accomplished great strides toward its goals. However, it is alone and it has made enemies of virtually everyone surrounding them: the Zhentarim power structure in the Moonsea region, the Dales, the elves (In Evereska and Myth Drannor and the High Forest), the remaining Bedine below, Cormyr to the south, and the realms of the North and the Sword Coast who suffered from their attempts to melt the high ice. Add to this their more covert enemies, Larloch and the other various Netherese survivors, the Red Wizards, the Harpers, the Moonstars, as well as whatever phaerimm still remain.
Given this, I don't think anyone in their right mind would conclude that Shade is in a great position to pick a fight with another group of Netherese survivors, whose diametric opposition in nature (as in Selune vs. Shar) would make them immediately prepared to deal with shadow magic and the other strengths of Shade.
I would wager that Telemont would approach Opus cautiously and offer alliance, even if it is tentative and fragile, based on nothing more than Opus' status as a Netherese enclave. Remember that their primary long term goal is the restoration of Netheril, where all the enclaves were rivals with each other, so this would be a step toward that goal.
Further, while Shade owes some allegiance to Shar, it is by no means absolute. Telemont suffers the religion for the power it offers, but would never risk all out war for the greater glory of Shar. Such a holy war would also certainly draw in support from the churches of Mystra (to whom Shar's shadow weave is a direct affront) and Amaunator/Lathander (who have already got skin in the game against Shar and her Shade followers).
I think that it's the fact Shade would be more powerful at first when Selunarra returns, currently. It would not remain that way for long.
But you hit another plot point. A civil war, cold and/or hot, between the Lord Shadow and the Princes of Shade (Which effects both regular realms and this scenarios, equally).
Telamont is a Netheril before all else ideology. He would likely seek a truce with the Selunarra, even if fragile and likely to be betrayed.
Prince Rivalen, is a religious zealot of Shar or Exarch given the period. He would see them as Selune worshipers first and Netherese second, therefore wanting them destroyed. He also protects his family from violent death.
So Telamont might find resistance and even attacks on him for trying to parley with Selunarra, from Rivalen and those who would align with him and Shar. While Netherese firsters would align with the old man.
A Netherese Shade Civil War... a good campaign for any character (Good, evil or indifferent) just from revealing the existence of Selunarra, even if it remains in the Gates of the Moon for now.
Any takers? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 09 Mar 2013 14:17:55 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 14:41:21
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Not I.
I think Telamont has some specific power over the shades of Shade enclave above and beyond his personal power and his relationship as their father. Perhaps its a geas he works on everyone. Perhaps it is something in the shade transformation he developed that allows him a measure of control. I don't think any of the Princes have the ability to attack him directly or to even directly disobey him.
I freely admit there is no direct evidence to support this, but it is how I'd go. As Lord Shadow goes so goes the nation, one might say. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 14:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Not I.
I think Telamont has some specific power over the shades of Shade enclave above and beyond his personal power and his relationship as their father. Perhaps its a geas he works on everyone. Perhaps it is something in the shade transformation he developed that allows him a measure of control. I don't think any of the Princes have the ability to attack him directly or to even directly disobey him.
I freely admit there is no direct evidence to support this, but it is how I'd go. As Lord Shadow goes so goes the nation, one might say.
I'll allow that.
But the key word is 'Directly'. There is a lot of damage 'indirect' attacks can cause. And indirect attacks also usually means adventurers of some kind.
There is also Shar and her meddling between a tool which is no longer useful and another which still is.
Telamont might have to look for protection from Shar by way of another god or power. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 09 Mar 2013 15:00:18 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 15:32:14
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Masked Mage made a good point. Telamont doesn't tolerate disobedience. However, given the current situation---Brennus's undying determination to kill Rivalen no matter the cost---one way or another, he himself would have to pick a side. It's fair to assume he'd make good with his promise to Brennus that if he told his brothers of Rivalen's matricide, Telamont would kill him himself. But Brennus had always been Alashar's favorite, and it's possible that through Brennus, Telamont sees his late wife, whom he truly loved. Or all of that wouldn't matter, if what Telamont really cares about is rebuilding Netheril and conquering the world. But is it really the only thing he cares about? Is he as cold-blooded as he lets people think him to be?
Foxhelm, you're right. Telamont might seek Shar's protection against enemies he himself might have great trouble dealing with. But Shar for him has always been just a means, and never a goal in itself. Unlike his son Rivalen, whose goal is Shar. True, he once was able to reconcile his duties as a prince and as a Nightseer by stopping the Shadowstorm, but how long can he keep it up? Someday, one of those dual responsibilities would require to be chosen ove the other. And which of the two will he choose? Well, I suppose his matricide already speaks for itself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 15:36:42
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I move the argument to another thread.
Still it reminds me of the last issue of Dragon. A fight between the top archmages of the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance was in the final paragraph came down to this idea: Which ever wizard can get the collective cheap shot in wins. Same here. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 16:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Masked Mage made a good point. Telamont doesn't tolerate disobedience. However, given the current situation---Brennus's undying determination to kill Rivalen no matter the cost---one way or another, he himself would have to pick a side. It's fair to assume he'd make good with his promise to Brennus that if he told his brothers of Rivalen's matricide, Telamont would kill him himself. But Brennus had always been Alashar's favorite, and it's possible that through Brennus, Telamont sees his late wife, whom he truly loved. Or all of that wouldn't matter, if what Telamont really cares about is rebuilding Netheril and conquering the world. But is it really the only thing he cares about? Is he as cold-blooded as he lets people think him to be?
Foxhelm, you're right. Telamont might seek Shar's protection against enemies he himself might have great trouble dealing with. But Shar for him has always been just a means, and never a goal in itself. Unlike his son Rivalen, whose goal is Shar. True, he once was able to reconcile his duties as a prince and as a Nightseer by stopping the Shadowstorm, but how long can he keep it up? Someday, one of those dual responsibilities would require to be chosen ove the other. And which of the two will he choose? Well, I suppose his matricide already speaks for itself.
I don't think he'd turn to Shar to do any more than pay her lip service. Like Karsus he's one of the Netherese that believes himself to be basically a god, and devotion to a deity just doesn't jive with that. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 16:24:44
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I'm almost inclined to agree. Almost. Yes, he's an old-fashioned, hardcore Netherese archwizard who believes that gods are mere empowered archmages. I wasn't saying he'd be pledging devotion to Shar. That's too much to ask of him, especially now that he knew it was Shar's very command that killed his wife. No, not devotion, but bargain. He himself witnessed and admitted how Shar, through Rivalen, helped their city survive the hostile environment that was the Plane of Shadow. If one day Shade faces an enemy that would be too difficult to deal with, and if Shar offers a helping hand (for a price, of course), then Telamont might agree to it, albeit begrudgingly. Though (and this is pure conjecture based on everything we've read so far) he probably has a very thorough and detailed plan to exact revenge for taking away the only woman he loved. And it could be something that involves both Rivalen and (the not-so-dead) Mask. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 16:44:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm almost inclined to agree. Almost. Yes, he's an old-fashioned, hardcore Netherese archwizard who believes that gods are mere empowered archmages. I wasn't saying he'd be pledging devotion to Shar. That's too much to ask of him, especially now that he knew it was Shar's very command that killed his wife. No, not devotion, but bargain. He himself witnessed and admitted how Shar, through Rivalen, helped their city survive the hostile environment that was the Plane of Shadow. If one day Shade faces an enemy that would be too difficult to deal with, and if Shar offers a helping hand (for a price, of course), then Telamont might agree to it, albeit begrudgingly. Though (and this is pure conjecture based on everything we've read so far) he probably has a very thorough and detailed plan to exact revenge for taking away the only woman he loved. And it could be something that involves both Rivalen and (the not-so-dead) Mask.
I'd go with that. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 19:07:31
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In response to the OP, I think the citizens (and leaders) of Opus are not quite as singularly pure, radiant, and "good" as people readily believe. Just as the citizens (and leaders) of Shade are not quite as dark, nasty, and "evil" as cursory appearances might suggest.
Selûnarrans (?) returning to Faerûn would probably bring along an aggressive agenda to restore old Netheril which doesn't differ greatly from the Shadovar agenda. The proverb says you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, or perhaps ye can't train a wizard without breaking a few wands, or something like that ... resurrecting a dead civilization would involve construction, deconstruction, destruction, blood, magic, gold, and steel on epic scales no matter's who's installed as the mastermind and grand puppeteer.
For instance ... would Opus choose to reactivate the mythallar of sunken Sakkors? And how would they approach this objective if, as indicated through canon, the only practical method of doing so happens to involve the (unwilling?) cooperation of a psionic cambion sired by Mephistopheles? How would a priestess/exarch/Chosen of waxing and waning Selûne be able to combat the machinations of Shar/Mask/Lathander and stab the heart of the Shadowstorm? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 19:27:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
In response to the OP, I think the citizens (and leaders) of Opus are not quite as singularly pure, radiant, and "good" as people readily believe. Just as the citizens (and leaders) of Shade are not quite as dark, nasty, and "evil" as cursory appearances might suggest.
Selûnarrans (?) returning to Faerûn would probably bring along an aggressive agenda to restore old Netheril which doesn't differ greatly from the Shadovar agenda. The proverb says you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, or perhaps ye can't train a wizard without breaking a few wands, or something like that ... resurrecting a dead civilization would involve construction, deconstruction, destruction, blood, magic, gold, and steel on epic scales no matter's who's installed as the mastermind and grand puppeteer.
For instance ... would Opus choose to reactivate the mythallar of sunken Sakkors? And how would they approach this objective if, as indicated through canon, the only practical method of doing so happens to involve the (unwilling?) cooperation of a psionic cambion sired by Mephistopheles? How would a priestess/exarch/Chosen of waxing and waning Selûne be able to combat the machinations of Shar/Mask/Lathander and stab the heart of the Shadowstorm?
Not saying they would be pure, but they would be less likely to have the same moral view as the Shade. Which also alters Canon, since the first alteration of Canon in the OP would lead to changing of Canon onwards.
It is the difference between Realms books and Realms Adventures. A novel from it's structure can only have one canon result. A game like an adventure can have multiples storylines which can all be canon, given the story arc of the adventure.
Like how in The Elder Scrolls, there was one game where multiple forces fought on multiples side of a war. When the sequels come out, they had to figure out how to either exclude all but one ending or make it so all possible results could occur (Which given it's a fantasy setting, occurred by have magic Warp things).
So it would be expected all the events to occur after RotAW would be different in this Realms, since Opus replaces Shade. In which ways... I am interested in hearing ideas... |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 20:46:32
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I'll agree wholeheartedly on sidestepping the usual digression towards "what is canon?" arguments ...
Exploring ideas, then:
Would Opus require Sakkors, a second floating-city platform?
Would Opus engage in "terraforming" old Netheril (which would cause the same environmental disasters Shade caused)? Or would they seize productive land possessed by someone else? Or would they be content with other arrangements which leave them dependant upon external forces for all their food and basic supplies?
Silly Shades shoulda sought out some drow. A combination of controllable shadows and subterranean agriculture (plus the opportunity to meet like-minded evil bastards like drow and duergar) seems win-win to me. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 02:04:11
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| I'd say a tangent to this would be Ed's most recent answer on Ask Ed. According to Ed (therefore its cannon) there are at least 12 mythallars still active in the Realms. Even if you include Sakkors and Shade that leaves 10 more out there somewhere. The two I've decided are most likely are Larloch's (in Warloch's Crypt) and the special modified mythallar of Shadelorn. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 04:20:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Selûnarrans (?) returning to Faerûn would probably bring along an aggressive agenda to restore old Netheril which doesn't differ greatly from the Shadovar agenda.
I'd think that if that was their agenda, they would have been seeking a way back already.
I don't think Selûne would allow a bunch of would-be conquerers to live in her realm for centuries. It doesn't fit her alignment or her ethos.
That's part of why I see them as I described them: if they come back, they'll be looking to make a place for themselves, but they're not going to be doing the "This place was ours sixteen centuries ago, GET OUT!" routine that Shade is doing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 04:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'd say a tangent to this would be Ed's most recent answer on Ask Ed. According to Ed (therefore its cannon) there are at least 12 mythallars still active in the Realms. Even if you include Sakkors and Shade that leaves 10 more out there somewhere. The two I've decided are most likely are Larloch's (in Warloch's Crypt) and the special modified mythallar of Shadelorn.
Shadelorn? I am not familiar with this one.
The Neverwinter campaign book has another flying enclave out there, though it's not really given all that much detail -- so we don't know if it's mythallar was still active, was repaired, or if it's held aloft thru some other means. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 13:24:04
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An excerpt from Netheril Empire of Magic:
"In 3215, the Crown of Horns was discovered by the eager archwizard Shadelorn who was trying to unlock the key to creating a more powerful mythallar (a project that Ioulaum had abandoned years earlier). After numerous attempts, he finally succeeded in 3517.
Up through this time, the archwizard Shenandra had been working on a spell to counteract the phaerimm’s life drain and magic drain spells. After numerous failures, she succeeded in creating a counter spell that simply negated the phaerimm’s magic during the fall months of 3517.
Shadelorn’s research had been altered by the Crown of Horns, that now wanted revenge for its defeat years earlier. At the same time that Shenandra cried out in joy at her success, Shadelorn activated his new improved mythallar. Its activation absorbed all magical items, memorized spells, and continuous spell effects within a 20-mile radius of Shadowtop Borough. Arcanists whose lives had been extended through magic found themselves reduced to ashes by the improved mythallar’s effects. And Shadowtop Borough crashed into the Janick River."
Basically, its an anti-magic Mythallar. Cool I think :), also it would be the ultimate weapon in a war against the Netherese. Find some way to transport it without touching it or using magic, and deliver it to the Enclave = Big Crash. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:17:57
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There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:52:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I can see them restore it like the Shade, since restoring the desert to life is neither Evil nor Good in the grand schemes of things.
When the shades restored Anauroch they caused great havoc in other kingdoms due to drastic weather changes. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:55:53
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Yes, because they melted the High Ice. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 18:15:48
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I can see them restore it like the Shade, since restoring the desert to life is neither Evil nor Good in the grand schemes of things.
When the shades restored Anauroch they caused great havoc in other kingdoms due to drastic weather changes.
Yes, but restoration is not evil. Letting the problems coming with Climate Realignment harm others might be. The Netherese had the ability to work with others to restore their lands while minimizing the harm on other kings as much as possible. The difference is as the Shades don't care about other kings due to both religion and government philosophies, Selunarra has the religions of at least Selune and Mystryl/Mystra which would influence them to cause least harm and they were more an entertainment/scholarship Enclave then the experimental Enclave of the Shades. And wiping out their source of audiences and research is a bad thing. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 22:27:51
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quote:
Dennis
There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius.
I would carry this one step further and say that every mythallar is unique, since each archwizard would need to independently discover/invent the methods and principles involved. Call it a "white room engineering" approach if you prefer - operational specifications are decided in advance, engineering choices (costs/tradeoffs in labour, materials, time, energy, and other resources) are then carefully manipulated to best meet projected expectations.
I also think that (would-be) archwizards would each want to express something personal in his mythallar as a way to advertise and distinguish his capabilities among his peers, especially given the strong personalities and accomplishments of their most famous contemporaries. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 23:09:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Dennis
There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius.
I would carry this one step further and say that every mythallar is unique, since each archwizard would need to independently discover/invent the methods and principles involved. Call it a "white room engineering" approach if you prefer - operational specifications are decided in advance, engineering choices (costs/tradeoffs in labour, materials, time, energy, and other resources) are then carefully manipulated to best meet projected expectations.
I also think that (would-be) archwizards would each want to express something personal in his mythallar as a way to advertise and distinguish his capabilities among his peers, especially given the strong personalities and accomplishments of their most famous contemporaries.
Of course the same could be said for Mythal, especially elven ones as they spend lifetime researching their builds.
Even the generic magic items like a "Wand of Fireballs" are likely unique as the wizard might spin things like colour or visuals of the fireball, changing the element or even personalizing the physical wand itself.
This was before Ford Convayer belt Standardization where one part is the same as all other parts. Everything made is relatively unique as they are all handmade. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 00:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Dennis
There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius.
I would carry this one step further and say that every mythallar is unique, since each archwizard would need to independently discover/invent the methods and principles involved. Call it a "white room engineering" approach if you prefer - operational specifications are decided in advance, engineering choices (costs/tradeoffs in labour, materials, time, energy, and other resources) are then carefully manipulated to best meet projected expectations.
I also think that (would-be) archwizards would each want to express something personal in his mythallar as a way to advertise and distinguish his capabilities among his peers, especially given the strong personalities and accomplishments of their most famous contemporaries.
We know this wasn't the case from Netheril, Empire of Magic. There were schools that taught the method of creation of Mythallars, in Ioulamm's Enclave and Karsus' at the very least. I'd expect that most mythallars were the same. Created using the same means as the original. Only the greatest Archwizards, or ones who specialized with new forms of magic (like shadow magic, for example) would take the time to re-invent to wheel and create a mythallar that strayed from the norm.
Look at it this way, what is the fastest way to power for a spellcaster. Learning spells from another's spellbook or taking the time to painstakingly recreate every spell you've heard of through experimentation, trial and error. Very few wizards ever get to the point where they have mastered enough of the spells others have created to enter into the point of their career where they re-create these spells in their own way. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 16:41:16
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| In part I disagree, TMM, and say we don't know mythallars were standardized. True, Arcane Ages: Netheril, Empire of Magic is basically the definitive heart of published Netheril canon. But the only actual examples of mythallars and mythals detailed elsewhere are each special and unusual in some way; not a single one has even the basic appearance given for the "standard model" published in Netheril. Given this contradiction, I'm more inclined to believe that mythallars are somewhat variable and each is essentially unique - especially since the usual auctorial inflation suggests that any "new" mythallars we see published in future Realmslore are likely to each be more dazzling and penultimately potent and somehow sinister than any mythallars described before. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 17:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The proverb says you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, or perhaps ye can't train a wizard without breaking a few wands, or something like that ...
I always heard it as
"You can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boot, then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others"
Quote - Tarquin, Order of the Stick |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Return of the Archwizards: Opus replaces Shade
