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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 17:59:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Dennis
There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius.
I would carry this one step further and say that every mythallar is unique, since each archwizard would need to independently discover/invent the methods and principles involved. Call it a "white room engineering" approach if you prefer - operational specifications are decided in advance, engineering choices (costs/tradeoffs in labour, materials, time, energy, and other resources) are then carefully manipulated to best meet projected expectations.
I also think that (would-be) archwizards would each want to express something personal in his mythallar as a way to advertise and distinguish his capabilities among his peers, especially given the strong personalities and accomplishments of their most famous contemporaries.
We know this wasn't the case from Netheril, Empire of Magic. There were schools that taught the method of creation of Mythallars, in Ioulamm's Enclave and Karsus' at the very least. I'd expect that most mythallars were the same. Created using the same means as the original. Only the greatest Archwizards, or ones who specialized with new forms of magic (like shadow magic, for example) would take the time to re-invent to wheel and create a mythallar that strayed from the norm.
Look at it this way, what is the fastest way to power for a spellcaster. Learning spells from another's spellbook or taking the time to painstakingly recreate every spell you've heard of through experimentation, trial and error. Very few wizards ever get to the point where they have mastered enough of the spells others have created to enter into the point of their career where they re-create these spells in their own way.
Here's the difference as I see it. Compare somewhat spellcasting to programming in computer languages. Initially, everyone was developing their own source code and everyone's worked different. Then, they started developing standards, and they developed subroutines that started getting shared. For low level spells, these are likely comparable to these sub-routines. Occasionally, someone may attempt to recreate them (and thus we may have variations of magic missile, etc...), but not often. Meanwhile, the upper levels of spellcasting are comparable to people trying to build their own programs based upon previously learned sub-routines. The more widespread the spell, the more likely its become "standardized and packaged".... such that most everyone's meteor swarm is likely the same/similar. The less common and secretly held, the more likely that each version of the spell is slightly different.... even if its the same spell. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 22:36:49
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Even with access to standardized components, "libraries", and building blocks - refined to their most elegant and efficient forms by many smart people over many hard years - it takes a certain kind of genius, ambition, and hypercompetence to construct an entire operating system or computing platform alone. Very few engineers or programmers could do such a thing alone (by today's standards), to build a dependable system on which lesser programmers can write apps that anybody (even children and idiots) can operate.
Archwizards - or aspiring archwizards - do have much support and competition from their peers. But superprojects like constructing a mythallar (and flying mountaintop enclave) are probably beyond the ability of common men, even beyond the abilities of somewhat unusual men able to attain the correct experience levels to cast the prerequisite spells. Not every musician is a Bach, not every physicist is a Hawking, not every artist is an Escher. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 15:43:54
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I agree with Ayrik. The Netherese always competed with each other, even with those whom they treated as friends. And innovation had somewhat been part of their mantra.
Would you be content copying the invention of your peers or would you make something better, something more remarkable to boost your reputation? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 17:13:10
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| From a more pragmatic standpoint, how would you entice more people - let alone the finest of craftsmen, the most prestigious scholars, the greatest minds - to populate your enclave instead of one of the thousands of other (already established) enclaves which float around? The same way you convince people that your car or fast food or brand of clothing is better than a competing product - you advertise some kind of innovation which sets your thingy apart from the others. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Mar 2013 17:13:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 18:48:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
From a more pragmatic standpoint, how would you entice more people - let alone the finest of craftsmen, the most prestigious scholars, the greatest minds - to populate your enclave instead of one of the thousands of other (already established) enclaves which float around? The same way you convince people that your car or fast food or brand of clothing is better than a competing product - you advertise some kind of innovation which sets your thingy apart from the others.
Innovation isn't the only thing that will appeal to people. The average crafter or scholar isn't going to give an osquip's behind if your mythallar does something better than Archmage Jho's mythallar -- they are going to want places to practice their trade that either pay well, offer certain freedoms/restrictions, give them the social life they want, or some combination thereof.
I'm not arguing that each mythallar was or wasn't different -- I'm just saying if you don't sling spells yourself, something that facilitates the use of magic isn't going to be as much of a draw to you. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 19:01:18
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| Who said you can't modify a mythallar later with a special spell, showing off the power of the Archwizard? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 21:52:47
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quote:
Foxhelm
Who said you can't modify a mythallar later with a special spell, showing off the power of the Archwizard?
I suppose it's always possible to modify a mythallar; indeed, it could be argued that the Shadovar did exactly that when they "reactivated" the dormant Sakkors mythallar. We also have at least one canon example of an elven mythal being modified, even a few artifacts, so it seems like powerful enough magic can basically accomplish anything.
AD&D 2E game rules, overlapping 1E and 3E a little, basically made it difficult and very risky to modify existing magical items; most of the risk seemed concerned with the possible loss, damage, or degradation of existing magics. I think this notion influenced (or at least was never contradicted) by the Realmslore within all editions of FR novels. I recall Finder and his little magical trinket made something of a big deal about this.
More significantly, it seems evident that a 10th level wizard spell (or more likely, several of them) are involved in the construction of a mythallar; certainly an archwizard needs to achieve 20th level of experience and be able to cast 10th level arcs (spells) before endeavouring to construct this artifact. And as we all know, Mystra prohibited or at least restricted the use of magics exceeding 9th level. Yes, there are other forms of magic (Divine spellcasting, Quest spells, elven High Magic, True Dweomers, Shadow Magic, etc) which aren't necessarily limited in this fashion, but these are not the magics of the Nether Scrolls that were studied and used by Netherese arcanists who built these mythallars. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 22:14:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I recall Finder and his little magical trinket made something of a big deal about this.
The finder's stone was referred to as an artifact, though it was never made clear what it could do before he tampered with it.
There was a spell in 2E called Steal Enchantment... I don't recall the source, but I'm wanting to say it was in the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set. That spell made it possible to take the magical abilities from a magical item and put them into another item. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 23:14:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
From a more pragmatic standpoint, how would you entice more people - let alone the finest of craftsmen, the most prestigious scholars, the greatest minds - to populate your enclave instead of one of the thousands of other (already established) enclaves which float around? The same way you convince people that your car or fast food or brand of clothing is better than a competing product - you advertise some kind of innovation which sets your thingy apart from the others.
Innovation isn't the only thing that will appeal to people. The average crafter or scholar isn't going to give an osquip's behind if your mythallar does something better than Archmage Jho's mythallar -- they are going to want places to practice their trade that either pay well, offer certain freedoms/restrictions, give them the social life they want, or some combination thereof.
I'm not arguing that each mythallar was or wasn't different -- I'm just saying if you don't sling spells yourself, something that facilitates the use of magic isn't going to be as much of a draw to you.
The first guy who thought to link his mythallar with summon nymph and summon succubus spells very adequately drew a large number of male occupants. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 14:42:55
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Creating a mythallar is he standard by which all were judged... being able to create one is what made a powerful arcanist earn the term Archmage. For this reason, the ambitious would take the shortest route to success, I'd say. We know that Ioulamm's mythallar was the standard model. We also know that Karsus's 3 mythallars were the standard model. These were arguable the most creative archmages of Netheril in terms of expanding magical possibility (not just creating new spells). If they didn't think inventing a new mythallar was worth the effort then why would most others?
Further along that line of thought, why take the time to tell the story of an Archmage working to create an improved mythallar if that was not a rare occurrence? The other mythallars mentioned (in novels) were adapted by the writers to create a point of interest in the story, which is fine. I'd argue this makes them the exception, not the rule, however. |
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Return of the Archwizards: Opus replaces Shade
