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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 05:04:41
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As an elf-lover, I will defend them, but I know they have faults, particularly sun elves. This branch of elves in particular do tend to be haughty, xenophobic, and resistant to change, only doing so if they have no other choice. Moon elves are more open, and half-elves are more likely to have a moon elf parent. The island of Evermeet used to be pretty exclusive, then they became a little more open, but then in 4e the island literally withdrew again. Elven societies are more open to humans nowadays, but most still view themselves as superior.
I think they are still exotic, and even some humans still see them that way. One of the reasons they are everywhere now, IMO, is because they realize they don't have much of a choice. It seems like there are more elves now because they have to either adapt or die out, and adapting means interacting with other races. The 3 or 4 times I've played D&D I've played an elf, because they are my favorite race. I have a lot of elf--and drow--OCs. But they are not perfect. They have their faults, just like any other race. I personally think humans are still more prevalent in the Realms than elves are as a whole, perhaps because they are still to be considered exotic.
Elves had great civilizations, because they were around before humans, and so by the time humans had "evolved" enough, the elves were far more advanced. They've been around longer. But, they've also had their dark points in history, and some of their misery has been caused by themselves (Crown Wars). While they have still have great cities, they are not as they once were, and I think that is why they are trying to adapt and still keep their elven culture alive. They've had more time to advance than humans because they've been around longer, and are a longer-lived race. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 05:05:36
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I hate elves as well, but they are very important fantasy trope so we are stuck with them. I try to run them more like their folklore roots, though (so you don't see them 'in town' - PC elves get stared at). I don't single them out, either - non-humans are fairly rare in human areas (and vice-versa).
I've been going through all the episodes of Pirates of Dark Waters today (got about halfway through), and noticed that not only does Ren look like an elf (slanted eyes, blonde hair, and dark skin), but the folk he meets in episode 2 (The Atani) are definitely drow (tall, pale-skinned elves, but they scream drow to me) - they even have the red, glowing eyes.
The reason why I'm going through them is because I'm stealing certain elements from them. Damn shame they never finished that series - it was way ahead of its time. If Ren is supposed to be an elf (you never see his ears), at least he's an elf I like.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 05:37:32
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For someone who hates elves, Markustay, you seem to know a lot about them and read a lot of Realms books featuring them  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 06:45:43
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| Did anyone read my post :( ? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 07:12:10
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Yes, I read it, and others probably did too, but they (and myself) responded to other posts because of the conversation they sparked, if you will, but I'll respond to yours.
I don't know if elves "learner slower", per se. I think, to a point, elves mature at the same rate as humans (a 10 year old elf would be the same as a 10 year old human), but likely in their adolescent years (by human standards), they slow down physically. They might go through puberty later, too, but don't quote me on that. I do think elves are an advanced race, but part of that is they've just been around longer, so they've had more time. Add that to the fact they are longer lived. It's not that they learn slower, it's that--as AI said--they tend to delve deeply into one or two things at a time, since they have more time to do so. Elves are also better at magic (I'm using this as an example) because their bodies have more magic in them. They are very attuned to the Weave--or elven High Magic, at least. This, I believe, is a canon fact, so they might naturally be "better" at magic than humans, or at learn it quicker. I'm sure there are exceptions, though. Not all elven mages can easily cast magic missile.
Admittedly, the 1st and 12th level doesn't apply much to me, since I mainly read the novels, but I think I see your point. No matter the age of the character, they always start out at 1st level. That, from my understanding, is game requirements (correct me if I'm wrong). So it doesn't matter if the elf is 24 or 300 hundred. He has to start at the beginning. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 13:10:48
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I know a lot about Elves (in FR) because they are a major part of FR's history. I study Realms history like it was RW history - I don't have to like the cultures involved.
I used to like Elves back in my 'Tolkien days' - it may even be FR that has made me hate them so (seriously - they've done nothing but commit genocide after genocide since they've arrived - they are positively vile!)
On the other hand, I used to hate Drow (and Orcs), but by studying their history I've come to the conclusion that they've gotten the short-end of the stick, and they should be pitied instead. History is written by the winners, and they always paint the defeated as 'the bad guys'. The Drow didn't start the Crown Wars; they tried to end them. For that they - and ALL their descendents - were sentenced to the world's largest prison for all eternity. Sucks for them.
If an Orc (or Drow) doesn't like you, they will try to kill you. If an Elf doesn't like you, it will try to massacre your entire race, and make sure your children's children's children suffer until the end of time. Now which is more evil?
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Did anyone read my post :( ?
Sorry - I missed it. Thats the problem with being the last post on a page (its happened to me plenty of times).
I've read it now, and agree - it ties into what I've said about them as well (that they mature more slowly, but that has little to do with intelligence.) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2013 13:11:36 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 22:44:05
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| I like Tolkien and Dark Sun elves but fr moon+sun elves are uninteresting or repulsive in how they are portrayed to me. I dislike their culture, history, ....everything. The only aspect I find interesting is their superiority complex and things like the Elsreth Veluuthra. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 23:09:11
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I view Tolkien's elves (à la Silmarillion) as perfectly suited for Middle Earth, a vital element within the setting, a way to emphasize that everybody is only part of a greater world. The Lord of the Rings book trilogy featured elves but was really more about other peoples, while the Hollywood glam elves of the movie of course prompted my OP criticism.
D&D elves are just another trope in generic pastiche quasi-Medieval pseudo-European D&D settings, alongside pastiche druids and bards and rangers. I am bewildered and dismayed at their overwhelming popularity, although I can understand (intellectually) the reasons which promoted it. These unrealistic elves are the ones I most dislike, especially as they are copied and varied again and again - but D&D is a game, not a simulation, and many people have fun playing games with elves.
I do like Athasian elves because (like everything else in Dark Sun) they defy the usual fantasy RPG trope. Although I could never quite consolidate how a race with such weak Constitution would possess special endurance abilities. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 23:37:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know a lot about Elves (in FR) because they are a major part of FR's history. I study Realms history like it was RW history - I don't have to like the cultures involved.
I used to like Elves back in my 'Tolkien days' - it may even be FR that has made me hate them so (seriously - they've done nothing but commit genocide after genocide since they've arrived - they are positively vile!)
On the other hand, I used to hate Drow (and Orcs), but by studying their history I've come to the conclusion that they've gotten the short-end of the stick, and they should be pitied instead. History is written by the winners, and they always paint the defeated as 'the bad guys'. The Drow didn't start the Crown Wars; they tried to end them. For that they - and ALL their descendents - were sentenced to the world's largest prison for all eternity. Sucks for them.
If an Orc (or Drow) doesn't like you, they will try to kill you. If an Elf doesn't like you, it will try to massacre your entire race, and make sure your children's children's children suffer until the end of time. Now which is more evil?
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Did anyone read my post :( ?
Sorry - I missed it. Thats the problem with being the last post on a page (its happened to me plenty of times).
I've read it now, and agree - it ties into what I've said about them as well (that they mature more slowly, but that has little to do with intelligence.)
I see your point, but elves aren't the only ones who will kill more than just -you- if they don't like you. Orcs and drow (I like drow) go on raids and murder whole villages, too. The Crown Wars was a dark smudge in elven history, to say the least, and it had terrible consequences, but it's like hating today's Germans or Japanese because of what happened in WWII. AFAIK, "present day" elves do not go on such crusades (except for maybe the Shevarashans). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 02:05:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I do like Athasian elves because (like everything else in Dark Sun) they defy the usual fantasy RPG trope. Although I could never quite consolidate how a race with such weak Constitution would possess special endurance abilities.
Elves of Athas does go some ways toward addressing this in it's treatment of the elves of DARK SUN.
Elves of Athas has long been one of my favourite TSR-era products -- especially the well-thought out section on the various elven tribes of the wastes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 04:32:11
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I have never had access to Elves of Athas. When I was quite young I played a Dark Sun campaign with my family (young enough that I needed help every step of the way and couldn't comprehend spell descriptions although I insisted on being a preserver) I want to read this book now! Are old Dark Sun products open source now?
EDIT: By open source I mean can you download them on the WOTC website or anything like that. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 30 Jan 2013 04:33:01 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 04:47:17
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| Dark Sun products are not open source, and to my knowledge none were ever offered as free downloads. Beware that Dark Sun received a lot of overhaul during its 2E run, I'd recommend the revised (1995) box set over the original, but I'm not very familiar with 3E/4E Dark Sun. My favourite Dark Sun supplement is actually 2E Thri-Kreen of Atlas, but the various psionics books tend to be the most used. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 04:51:55
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I wanted to add to my last post. I know I could just edit it, but oh well. The more I think about it, the more I realize how terrible the Crown Wars were, and it was indeed unfair all the dark elves were cast down. I fully acknowledge that. But I think we also have to realize that not all all the elves were involved in the CW (and neither were all the dark elves, so yes, it is unfair). I do not think we can judge an entire race based on what groups (albeit large ones) did. Not very German was a Nazi in WWII.
I tend to scratch my head at the CW because elves take such pride in being, well, elves, so its true that their act of genocide doesn't make much sense. So yes, bad move on the elves' part. And there were several elves in Elminster in Myth Drannor I did not like, but I still love the race as a whole. For those who hate them, better not read my book when I manage to get it published--it's full of the pointy-eared folk. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 05:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I have never had access to Elves of Athas. When I was quite young I played a Dark Sun campaign with my family (young enough that I needed help every step of the way and couldn't comprehend spell descriptions although I insisted on being a preserver) I want to read this book now! Are old Dark Sun products open source now?
EDIT: By open source I mean can you download them on the WOTC website or anything like that.
They'll probably find themselves up on the [http://www.dndclassics.com/] site at some point. Keep an eye out there.
Also, you might be interested in another take on DARK SUN with the fine work accomplished by the folk of [http://athas.org/]. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 06:44:15
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something else with elves and the casting lvl 3 spells at 100, you might consider the fact that elven society wont let a younger inexperienced elf cast that spell openly in case of them accidently causing harm to themselves and others.
but then they also bother to learn archery and swordplay too during that time or so theywould make you think assuming you buy into the hype that the scribe markustay states often and often and ofent and frequently, and half the time and half the rest of the time and more on and less on and on midsummer's eve and the other equinox, that all elves are evil.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 12:59:53
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Aside from the the DS box, I only had a few supplements for that setting, and Elves of Athas was excellent.
If I had to pick a favorite, I would have to say I really like Eberron's take on Elves - they go completely afield from the Tolkienesque 'flighty tree-huggers' approach.
On the other hand, I really like Greyhawk's Elves - they were even more of a Tolkien derivative, but thats why I liked them; they weren't so 'in your face' like FR's Elves. I wish they'd go back to retreating - I really dislike the whole "lets all share the planet" approach FR went into - its not very realistic. Species tend to wipe-out other species who compete for the same resources. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2013 13:00:33 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 14:12:15
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I think one of the causes of the growing dislike of elves is that their extended exposure in FR novels and gameproducts removed some of their mystery. Their portreyal in FR used to be fueled by a need to know, about their customs, culture and history. After years of hunting elven lore, they still remain my favorite subjects. I can understand the complaint about the oodles of text written about them, though. And the ubiquitous elven high magic prisons seem to have been the source of many a FR gaming campaigns main evils.
I've learned that using elves' connection to 'other places' (like the Feywild or Evermeet) can twist their motivations enough to bring back some of their mystery. The politics in those otherworldy locales can be frighteningly volatile. Elaith Craulnober is a well executed personage that shows how an elf in Waterdeep is still largely motivated by his past on Evermeet.
Theres a large advantage to having a large part of the audiance hate elves. Makes them great villains. Typical good elves should be rare, because few of them would see reason to leave their near-paradise (which most of elven holdings on Evermeet are). As the outcasts of Evermeet are more likely to wander around Faerun, it could be logical that showing unusual elves (fat, greedy, scheming, slow or sickened) on the roads should be emphasized.
I don't neccesarily advocate a return to the Retreat days, because having elven empires more readily available on Faerun can be such a great source for intrigue or war based games. Using elves more with more thought into their otherworldyness can help bring back that mysterious elf that I was introduced to in the early years of FR lore. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 19:13:20
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Athas.org looks like it used to have downloadable PDFs...I had no idea Dark Sun had so many products! My family (my whole family played D&D when I was growing up) only had 4 or 5 books. Dark Sun was such an amazing setting.
Elves are no more evil than humans, dwarves, halflings or other standard races that have variable alignments. Obviously a lot of things they have collectively done are not very nice...but not being nice does not make you evil. In Mulhorand Lawful Good priests have armies of slaves which we view as immoral but in the D&D worldview is not "evil". |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 20:04:00
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I'm not sure game/setting "alignment" really has much to do with popularity. Shadovar are Evil, Thayans are generally Lawful Evil, fiends are definitively Evil, drow elves are generally Chaotic Evil - yet they're all very popular. Lawful Good priesty types who follow Ilmater, Lathander, and Tyr are substantially less popular, in fact I think the main draw towards LG characters is basically Paladins (and even then, players often seek any options they can find to buckle and bend a "Paladin" class towards another alignment). I conclude that elven popularity (or lack thereof) is basically unrelated to alignment.
When people talk about Peter Jackson's Legolas they don't discuss evidence of his moral and ethical character. They talk about how cool it is to watch him surfboard across the battlefield, they talk about the unerring accuracy (and unlimited ammo) of his bowshot, they talk about his golden hair. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Jan 2013 20:06:26 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 21:34:20
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| The in-movie banter between Legolas-Gimli is very lopsided (and to me a bit nauseating), although it can be corrected when deliberately viewing the movie from a different bias (as demonstrated in my OP). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 21:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And his rapier wit in his banter with Gimli.....
I never found the banter to be witty...but that was probably because of the shortcomings of Orlando Bloom as an actor. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 21:52:42
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I am really sick of elven superiority in the Realms.
It's "everything you can do we can do much better" in the realms every time when it's elves vs. humans.
No human realm is ever as powerful as the elven realms (they even hoaxed the Netheril Empire) and no human army ever won a battle against an elven army. 
In the Last Mythal books it basically looked as if the elven army later only hooked up with the human army because that way there were a lot of no-value targets for the demonfey to target instead of targeting valuable elven soldiers (given how hopelessly the humans were routed when they took on the demonfey alone and how soundly the elves beat the human armies they fought).
Or how the elves pushed the human troops from Gwynneth on the Moonshaes as if they were children with sticks.
For once I would like to see a human kingdom that is able to treat with the likes of Cormanthor or Evereska or Sarifal on real eye level and not just the elves humoring the human rulers and their cute armies because they're to polite to embarrass them |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 22:16:14
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| The Zhentarim were given them a run for their money in the Cormanthor War but no, the designers needed to have the Zhents to lose again..... |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 23:48:08
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| Not me! I fully endorse their agenda! *nod nod* |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 23:56:53
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| You WOULD.... But seriously, that's what villainous organizations are there for! Y'know, for heroes to have a reason to kick some arse and take names. And get the hot babes afterwards. Okay, I think I've been watching too many superhero cartoons lately, LOL! Those turtles are starting to influence my thinking..... (I've been revisiting some of the old 2003 TMNT episodes- purely for research purposes on a fan-fic idea,of course, LOL![on mickeys-comic-tavern- check it out! It's in my siggy. End blatent plug.]) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 03:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I think one of the causes of the growing dislike of elves is that their extended exposure in FR novels and gameproducts removed some of their mystery. Their portreyal in FR used to be fueled by a need to know, about their customs, culture and history. After years of hunting elven lore, they still remain my favorite subjects. I can understand the complaint about the oodles of text written about them, though. And the ubiquitous elven high magic prisons seem to have been the source of many a FR gaming campaigns main evils.
I've learned that using elves' connection to 'other places' (like the Feywild or Evermeet) can twist their motivations enough to bring back some of their mystery. The politics in those otherworldy locales can be frighteningly volatile. Elaith Craulnober is a well executed personage that shows how an elf in Waterdeep is still largely motivated by his past on Evermeet.
Theres a large advantage to having a large part of the audiance hate elves. Makes them great villains. Typical good elves should be rare, because few of them would see reason to leave their near-paradise (which most of elven holdings on Evermeet are). As the outcasts of Evermeet are more likely to wander around Faerun, it could be logical that showing unusual elves (fat, greedy, scheming, slow or sickened) on the roads should be emphasized.
I don't neccesarily advocate a return to the Retreat days, because having elven empires more readily available on Faerun can be such a great source for intrigue or war based games. Using elves more with more thought into their otherworldyness can help bring back that mysterious elf that I was introduced to in the early years of FR lore.
I'm fine with the elves having mystery, but if every elf who appeared in a novel that didn't take place in an elven civilization was evil, then that would make many elven characters evil, unless the story took place in Evereska, Evermeet Myth Drannor, etc. Elves tend to wander, especially "nowadays". So I'd want some good elves, too.
Honestly, I really don't think the Realms has become "elf-centric". Yeah, there are novels that take place in elven societies and have many elven characters, but there are plenty that have human-centered stories, too. I'll admit, I do tend to read novels that are elf-centered (when I first got into the Realms, all I really wanted to read was about elves or drow, but I've branched out considerably) because they ARE my favorite race and I WOULD be sad if they disappeared. It'd be a deal breaker for me if the elves were taken from FR. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 04:04:18
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We see the Realms differently.
It often seems to me that one can hardly find a tree without a sneaky elf hiding behind it. Too bad you don't find an angry dwarf under every rock. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Jan 2013 04:04:45 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 04:20:48
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| I actually never knew there was such a dislike for elves until I came to Candlekeep. Then again, my group of friends all like elves, so I guess I didn't have much to go one ^^; still, though, I'll admit I'm surprised by all the animosity towards them. But then again, obviously some are surprised by their popularity, so... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Society thinks elves are cool
