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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 03:53:57
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Aye, more tales full of dirty drunken dwarves hacking their way through evil!
Firmly reassert the "forgotten race" of gnomes with significant tales (Tinker Tailor Wizard Spy?).
Skip the halflings. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 03:58:48
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| But halfings are cute small humans *EG* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 04:03:23
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The modern versions of vamps and elves do have much in common, basically they have superhuman physical abilities, supernatural mental abilities, irresistable seductions, and nearly-eternal youth. As somebody else pointed out above, the drawbacks to these species are usually downplayed or entirely ignored.
Ah well. This coming from a guy who deliberately never went past the first few Anne Rice novels and has never read/watched anything Twilight. I just don't find perfect uberhumans (beautiful superhuman immortals with Jedi powers and Matrix fighting skills) very appealing, too fake and imba for my tastes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 04:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
It's interesting. I've actually never really noticed the pro-elven bias described here. Sure, a lot of people love Elves (me included), but in terms of Elves always showing up to save the day, it's not something I've ever really taken particular notice of. Sure, it happens in some places, but I tend to find that I've come across of stories where this has not been the case.
Same here, most of the time, it hasn't been elves. Sure, in the history of the Realms, a lot of things happened concerning elves, but they aren't always the "heroes". I can name some elf-centered novels, but that certainly doesn't speak for every novel. Most of the time, there either aren't any elves, or there are one or two, among the other characters. Perhaps someone has an elven companion, but that companion is not the center of the story. Most characters tend to be human.
But, then again, I am one who would actually vouch for more elf-centered books  I am an elf lover, so I naturally support them.
I like vampires, too, but Twilight vampires are NOT vampires. I've read the books, I'll admit, but now the only reason why I'm glad I did is so I can make fun of them 
But, Ayrik, if you're really yearning for a non elf-centered Realms novel, I can give you a list of ones where either elves aren't characters, or there are only one or two of them, if you'd like. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 04:25:11
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Elves don't have superhuman physical abilities- they are just REALLY good at what they do. Because they can spend so much time practicing their skills/talents/hobbies. When you have centuries to learn something, you tend to learn it VERY well. Nothing superhuman about that. In fact, their strength and most other attributes tend to be around human average- unless one counts dexterity/agility, which a lighter frame tends to be better at anyway. (I speak from experience- I'm on the light and slender side myself, and can usually move quicker than most people larger than me.) That, and they live a more athletic lifestyle compared to most humans, and don't eat as much. So they don't get fat and lazy. Simple.
And nowhere have I seen it siad that elves were irresistable seducers- they are just usually more cultured and urbane than many humans would be. Not to mention often have better hygiene, considering their general distaste for being dirty or smelly. Who WOULDN'T prefer someone who bathes and keeps themselves in good health and hygeine over some backwoods farmer?! The fact that they tend to have attractive appearances is just a bonus. But there are unattractive elves- they just don't get the chicks or guys.... And how are those things a drawback? A longer life gives them more time to learn or do whatever they are interested in. That's more of an advantage, in my book!
Never went past the first few AR novels? That's a shame. Tale of the Body Thief and Memnoch were two of the best. I also liked Blackwood Farm, the most recent Vampire Chronicles book she wrote. I've heard she recently started a series on werewolves, but I've yet to read that one. It's on my to-read list, though. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 04:41:28
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I agree, AI. They're not superhuman, their bodies are just built differently. They're a more comely race, and their bodies are better. They take longer to get smelly, and they just have better hygiene. I too am on the slender side, and I can move quickly, but I'm not athletic, so my endurance leads much to be desired. A good friend and I joked that elves almost never seem to have to go to the bathroom. Heh, wouldn't that be nice! (though it's probably just because the authors don't mention it).
Anyway, I think elves are better "evolved", if you will, but it does not make them superhuman. And, humans are probably the only other race (aside from the elves themselves), who sees elves as sexy. Maybe some dragons as well, since they can take humanoid forms, but dwarves certainly wouldn't. I, of course, think elves are good-looking, but I'm a human...at least as far as I know. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 04:45:26
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| lol, you both say elves are not superhuman ... it's just that their bodies are better and they can spend entire human lifetimes refining their abilities while staying in their prime? |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 04:59:09
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| Yup, because have a better body and living a long time does make them superhuman. They can run fast, yes, but they have to be agile to make up for the fact they aren't very strong. Yes they have abilities humans may not, but I wouldn't call them superhuman. They aren't invincible, or infallible. Elves are my favorite race, but they have their faults. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 05:11:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
For elfless stories- gee, Year of Rogue Dragons, anybody? There were no elves in that trilogy, unless one countsthe original casters of the high-magic ritual that caused the Rage- and they were all LONG dead.
Except the one with wings. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 05:21:35
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| Ah, I loved Taegan. Oh, yeah, he was an arrogant thing, but I loved him nonetheless. He and Paval were my favorite characters from that trilogy. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 07:58:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
lol, you both say elves are not superhuman ... it's just that their bodies are better and they can spend entire human lifetimes refining their abilities while staying in their prime?
Well, there's also the fact that (in-game, at least) a 120-ish years old elf has about the same competence in his/her main specialization as a 20-30 years old human. If anything, this tells me that elven learning speed is ridiculously slow if compared to the human one... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 09:47:53
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| So you say all elves are dimwitted in that regard? |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 13:39:54
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Which is one of several reasons why they had to change the old canon that elves (and other demi-humans) mature slower; a thirty-year-old child would seem pretty stupid compared to a thirty-year-old human. If said child was just as clever (or smarter) then a 30-something human, then that also creates problems (you'd have tiny little, mentally mature adults, by human standards).
I have no problem with that in a fantasy setting - non-humans should BE non-human. However, it does create rules problems, so for simplicity sake they now say demi-humans mature at the same rate as humans, and then 'slow down'.
I like the way Troy Denning represented this in the RotAW series. The main character's sister (an elf) was considered a child by elven standards, and was treated thusly by her peers and in some ways even acted a bit immature. However, she was still just as intelligent - if not more-so - then the humans around her.
When she had a tryst with a human male, that human was younger then her, but because of the ways they interacted it was almost as if he was older then her (more 'worldy'). In a purely sexual way, she was almost like a young (late teens) girl having her first 'true love', which by human standards would be odd - I think she was somewhere between 30-50 (I'm pretty sure her exact age was mentioned at one point, but I'd have to go through the entire trilogy to find it). However, on the battlefield (and in other areas requiring superb intelligence) she excelled far beyond her apparent years. Thats the way I think elves should be - young-appearing, and perhaps seeming, but don't let them fool you - they are just as clever as any human their actual age.
Gestation periods should be longer for demi-humans as well, but I'm not sure if that was ever even addressed in canon in D&D material. Its just simpler (for the game) to say they are all about the same as humans. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jan 2013 13:42:07 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 13:56:14
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I'd say that the premise for this thread is based largely on ideas from FR and Tolkien works, but is still rather inaccurate there. The LOTR trilogy is heavier on elves than dwarves to be sure, but only just. In fact, its story is dominated by halflings (hobbits) in a world who's population is dominated by humans and humanoids (orcs for the most part).
In the realms, I'd say that most books are demi-human neutral. The big exception being Elaine Cunningham's novels which are elf heavy because she loves her some elves - nothing wrong with that. Other than her works, books are dominated by humans and demi-humans make little cameos or are supporting characters at best. (Of course there are exceptions).
As far as modern media goes, elves, I assume because of their faerie-like nature are portrayed as lithe and arguable effeminate. This appeals to some, and get under others skin, and this scroll has demonstrated :). |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 21:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
For elfless stories- gee, Year of Rogue Dragons, anybody? There were no elves in that trilogy, unless one countsthe original casters of the high-magic ritual that caused the Rage- and they were all LONG dead.
Except the one with wings.
Oops! I forgot about Taegan! LOL! Well, he was the ONLY one, IIRC. And he only played a minor role in most of the story, and had a fairy dragon companion helping him, to boot.
Better bodies? Nope, not "better", just built toward different strengths, like dwarves are built differently than either elves or humans. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses. With dwarves, it's toughness and strength, but they fall "short" in the speed and grace department. Elves are the polar opposite. You want fast and eagle-eyed? You want an elf. You want someone with a tough, sturdy build and a nose that can sniff out a vein of ore in a wall of solid rock? Then you want a dwarf. You want someone versitile and adaptable? That's a human.
None is "better" than the others, they all just have their own specialties and special skills and talents, based on how they live. Dwarves live a really long time too, and are masters of the forge and metal or gem-crafting, but they would be out of their league in an anrchery contest, due to the elven eyesight advantages. But put the elf underground, and he'd probably get claustrophobic and/or lost very fast. It's yin and yang.
And it's not that their learning is slow, either- they simply believe in mastering one thing at a time, until they are satisfied that they have progressed as far as they need/want to, before moving onto something else. In other words, they will study one subject for years, until they are so familiar with it or good at it that they have mastered that subject to the best of their ability. An elf who enjoys history, may spend DECADES researching EVERY aspect of whatever period or location interests them, then move on to say, studying a particular language for several more decades.
That doesn't mean that they learn SLOWER, only that they want to learn EVERYTHING they can about whatever it is they are working on. Like earning a Masters degree in a University. Depending on your area of study, that can take YEARS! But having such long lives meansthey can do this with just about ANYTHING that interests them and thus learn a great deal, unlike a human, who has a limited time to learn as much as possible in the same areas. Elves can afford to thake their time and understand something fully, where a human would have to try to "cram" perhaps centuries worth of information into the shorter lifespan they have available.
As for the maturity issue, the gestation has been (in Demihumans of the Realms, IIRC) mentioned as two full years for an elf, FAR longer than a human infant. Not only that, but while they achieve full "physical" growth in a similar time as humans, they are not sexually mature (ie, able to bear offspring of their own) until at least the ninth decade or later. (Which means that Dahlia from the Neverwinter trilogy should NOT have been able to have that child- she was only 12!!!) Basically, they have a short childhood, and REALLY long adolescence, but without the worry of possible unwanted child-birth until they are almost 100. Lucky bums.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 00:07:50
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Ah, I think some misunderstanding was caused by different definitions for superhuman.
To me the word means "superior to human capacity" or "better than the best possible human". I don't mean it in the context of "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound". That is why I say society idolizes elves/vampires as superhumans. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 00:38:42
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| But that's just it- they're NOT "better than the best possible human". They're just generally better than most humans AT WHAT THEY DO. They have better eyesight, which makes them naturally superior archers, no question. They are also magically gifted by their very nature of having a spiritual and physical connection to the Weave (or whatever otehr form of magic exists in a given world). That doesn't make them better at EVERYTHING. It simply means that they are generally better than a human at certain things, just as a dwarf would be. But humans are better at some things than elves are, too. Or betterthan dwarves, for that matter. (Try putting a human and a dwarf in a track race- who do you think is going to win that one?) So elves have some advantages going for them in their own areas of specialization. So what? They've learned to use their strengths, just as dwarves, humans, and even (gasp!) halflings have. Each has their own skills and talents, and are better at certain things than the otehr races. That's as it should be. If they were all the same, it would be boring. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 01:32:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is one of several reasons why they had to change the old canon that elves (and other demi-humans) mature slower; a thirty-year-old child would seem pretty stupid compared to a thirty-year-old human. If said child was just as clever (or smarter) then a 30-something human, then that also creates problems (you'd have tiny little, mentally mature adults, by human standards).
I have no problem with that in a fantasy setting - non-humans should BE non-human. However, it does create rules problems, so for simplicity sake they now say demi-humans mature at the same rate as humans, and then 'slow down'.
I like the way Troy Denning represented this in the RotAW series. The main character's sister (an elf) was considered a child by elven standards, and was treated thusly by her peers and in some ways even acted a bit immature. However, she was still just as intelligent - if not more-so - then the humans around her.
When she had a tryst with a human male, that human was younger then her, but because of the ways they interacted it was almost as if he was older then her (more 'worldy'). In a purely sexual way, she was almost like a young (late teens) girl having her first 'true love', which by human standards would be odd - I think she was somewhere between 30-50 (I'm pretty sure her exact age was mentioned at one point, but I'd have to go through the entire trilogy to find it). However, on the battlefield (and in other areas requiring superb intelligence) she excelled far beyond her apparent years. Thats the way I think elves should be - young-appearing, and perhaps seeming, but don't let them fool you - they are just as clever as any human their actual age.
Gestation periods should be longer for demi-humans as well, but I'm not sure if that was ever even addressed in canon in D&D material. Its just simpler (for the game) to say they are all about the same as humans.
Keya was 80, and you're right in that the older elves did treat her as "the young one", but she wasn't childish by human standards. Elves mature slowly physically, just not mentally (younger ones just might be more "playful", if you will). However, Keya did get pregnant, even though she was only 80, so it begs the question of just how soon elves can become pregnant. Dahlia became pregnant too, and she was, what, 12? To me, that seems awfully early for an elf. I don't think they're even going through puberty at that age. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 01:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
None is "better" than the others, they all just have their own specialties and special skills and talents, based on how they live. Dwarves live a really long time too, and are masters of the forge and metal or gem-crafting, but they would be out of their league in an anrchery contest, due to the elven eyesight advantages. But put the elf underground, and he'd probably get claustrophobic and/or lost very fast. It's yin and yang.
And it's not that their learning is slow, either- they simply believe in mastering one thing at a time, until they are satisfied that they have progressed as far as they need/want to, before moving onto something else. In other words, they will study one subject for years, until they are so familiar with it or good at it that they have mastered that subject to the best of their ability. An elf who enjoys history, may spend DECADES researching EVERY aspect of whatever period or location interests them, then move on to say, studying a particular language for several more decades.
That doesn't mean that they learn SLOWER, only that they want to learn EVERYTHING they can about whatever it is they are working on. Like earning a Masters degree in a University. Depending on your area of study, that can take YEARS! But having such long lives meansthey can do this with just about ANYTHING that interests them and thus learn a great deal, unlike a human, who has a limited time to learn as much as possible in the same areas. Elves can afford to thake their time and understand something fully, where a human would have to try to "cram" perhaps centuries worth of information into the shorter lifespan they have available.
Yes, but game-wise a 30 years old human wizard knows and can cast whatever his 120 years old elven counterpart is able to. So, it's not a matter of perfecting skills: either elves mature (grow to adulthood and complete their studies/training) at the same rate humans do (getting to age past that point at a FAR slower rate), or they are slow-learners. I don't see many other possibilities, tbh. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jan 2013 01:44:43 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 01:55:12
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Things that learn more quickly are generally able to do less complex things as they mature. Like a human baby is helpless whereas a cat is programmed to be able to do many things by instinct. (Science...I learned this in a psychology course...) But eventually humans are able to do much more complex tasks because our minds are not preprogrammed. Likewise I think Elves would learn slower but become capable of doing much more complex tasks. Therefore, learning slower is not necessarily a disadvantage.
Realistically almost all beings are 1st level anyways, though. Most elves and humans are 1st level commoners regardless of their age. Drow can live for centuries and centuries then maybe become 12th level (as described in the Menzoberranzan box set for most matron mothers) while humans have people obtain a similar level of skill by middle age or earlier. However, I would assume a greater proportion of surviving elves are high level than humans. (Epic level characters are almost always portrayed as having had extended lifespans like Khelben, Szass Tam, etc.) If we assume surface elves and drow are similar we could assume elves have similar abilities to the commoners, experts and warriors described in City of the Spider Queen. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 02:37:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
None is "better" than the others, they all just have their own specialties and special skills and talents, based on how they live. Dwarves live a really long time too, and are masters of the forge and metal or gem-crafting, but they would be out of their league in an anrchery contest, due to the elven eyesight advantages. But put the elf underground, and he'd probably get claustrophobic and/or lost very fast. It's yin and yang.
And it's not that their learning is slow, either- they simply believe in mastering one thing at a time, until they are satisfied that they have progressed as far as they need/want to, before moving onto something else. In other words, they will study one subject for years, until they are so familiar with it or good at it that they have mastered that subject to the best of their ability. An elf who enjoys history, may spend DECADES researching EVERY aspect of whatever period or location interests them, then move on to say, studying a particular language for several more decades.
That doesn't mean that they learn SLOWER, only that they want to learn EVERYTHING they can about whatever it is they are working on. Like earning a Masters degree in a University. Depending on your area of study, that can take YEARS! But having such long lives meansthey can do this with just about ANYTHING that interests them and thus learn a great deal, unlike a human, who has a limited time to learn as much as possible in the same areas. Elves can afford to thake their time and understand something fully, where a human would have to try to "cram" perhaps centuries worth of information into the shorter lifespan they have available.
Yes, but game-wise a 30 years old human wizard knows and can cast whatever his 120 years old elven counterpart is able to. So, it's not a matter of perfecting skills: either elves mature (grow to adulthood and complete their studies/training) at the same rate humans do (getting to age past that point at a FAR slower rate), or they are slow-learners. I don't see many other possibilities, tbh.
What I'm saying is that instead of learning slowly 9implying that they can't learn quickly) they are in fact, simply taking their time to study everyaspect of something rather than merely learning what is most useful and moving on. It's like the difference between taking time to fully understand a subject, vs cramming for a test. The elf would rather take his time- he knows he has it to spare. The human would have to be learning the same amount in a far shorter time, which usually leads to a less complete understanding. But take an elf and a human and teach them the same skill or knowledge from scratch at the same rate and time by the same teacher, and they will both learn it equally well and at about the same speed. But I'd be willing to bet the elf would take time later to restudy it and learn it better, because he has a lot more time to "kill" by learning more! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 03:19:31
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Meh, not even such difference in the quality of learning can explain a gap of more than half a century between the amount of time it takes a human and the one it takes an elf to achieve a similar competence.
I mean, if -say- a human can cast 3rd level spells by the time he/she's 30 and an elf does it by the time he/she's 100 (both around the minimum adventuring age, according to the manuals) you have to change something in the rules or in the lore to not make the fey look a bit dimwitted (it took the elf 30 years more to reach the same competence of a human. All the details you can imagine about a part of a discipline [neither the elf nor the human have reached a complete grasp of whole magic yet] can't suffice to justify this, assuming dedicated students). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jan 2013 03:20:35 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 03:39:47
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| Or maybe that elf is not even allowed to study that spell until he is mature enough to do so safely? See, it's clearly not a question of competance, because an elf could in theory start learning spells at the same age as the human- but I doubt he would be allowed to. You're forgetting that they are still considered CHILDREN until nearly a century old! Would you want to teach a child a possibly dangerous spell? No, of course not. They would wait until the elf was old enough mentally and emotionally (not just physically) to do it responsibly. And as I've said, it's not that the elf CAN'T learn or advance faster- they just prefer NOT TO. If you have all that time, you have to fill it somehow, and most choose to focus on one thing at a time. That's not a reflection of their intelligence or competence, but on their cultural views and ideals. And that minimum adventuring age is basically when they are considered adults (which in game terms is ALWAYS assumed to be first level), NOT how long it takes them to learn a third-level spell, which would even not happen until they've been adventuring for a while. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 03:55:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Or maybe that elf is not even allowed to study that spell until he is mature enough to do so safely? See, it's clearly not a question of competance, because an elf could in theory start learning spells at the same age as the human- but I doubt he would be allowed to. You're forgetting that they are still considered CHILDREN until nearly a century old! Would you want to teach a child a possibly dangerous spell? No, of course not. They would wait until the elf was old enough mentally and emotionally (not just physically) to do it responsibly.
This looks like a good explanation.
quote:
And as I've said, it's not that the elf CAN'T learn or advance faster- they just prefer NOT TO. If you have all that time, you have to fill it somehow, and most choose to focus on one thing at a time. That's not a reflection of their intelligence or competence, but on their cultural views and ideals. And that minimum adventuring age is basically when they are considered adults (which in game terms is ALWAYS assumed to be first level), NOT how long it takes them to learn a third-level spell, which would even not happen until they've been adventuring for a while.
Whatever, I took 3rd level spells as an example. You'd still have a 100 yo elf who can cast 1st level spells and a 30 yo human capable of doing the same things. No amount of extra details learnt by the elf can justify this. Unless he/she was denied access to any spellook till a certain age, which is your other point. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jan 2013 03:56:40 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 04:02:57
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The answer might have nothing to do with biological parameters and mental capacities and magical aptitudes.
Elves might simply enjoy childhood. A century is not a long time when you'll live a dozen more, parents and children want to enjoy the gift of childhood while it lasts. The call of the fey cannot be ignored, while dull archery practice and magical chores can wait.
While humans are compelled to grow up as fast as they can. Children learn by emulating older peers and role-models, they want to do things children cannot do, they always rush away from their youth. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Jan 2013 04:08:50 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 04:13:56
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Precisely. Their starting age has nothing to do with any learning curve- it has more to do with how they are raised and whether they would even be considered "ready" to start learning spells at all! And 100 to an elf is really still a very short time. They see humans age and die in the time they take just to finish growing up. They view humans as hasty and impatient, and too quick to assume they have mastered something in a few years, when the elves themselves may study a subject for decades before they are thought ready to advance to more complex and difficult studies.
As an example, Drizzt was 40 when he left Menzo, but was still basically a child in elven terms. Fully grown physically, and mentally as competent as a human the same age, but with far less life-experience or emotional maturity. And at that age, he would not even have been able to have children of his own. Yet drow age and mature faster than otehr elves, to a certain degree. However, they still have much longer before they are considered "adult", and much of their Academy training reflects this. However, they do not even begin such training until at least 25 or so. By that time, most humans would already be out on their own and start having their own families! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 04:17:09
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| Having said all that, however, I am not abandoning my distinctly anti-elf political platform, haha. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 04:19:15
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| What is it exactly that you hate so much? Is it the way they are portrayed and the attention they seem to get? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 04:37:06
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I have to admit I like elves and half-elves, although I like to play dwarves and humans as well. That said, I agree elves tend to get an inordinate amount of attention compared to other races. My minor opinion: With the majority of players being human  many prefer to play a non-human race...and elves are considered beautiful, graceful, and powerful and are a long-lived race. All things many of us would like to be. I think it's only natural that elves have such a following. All that said, I wish dwarves would receive more attention. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2013 : 04:41:36
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Hate is strong language, and inaccurate in this context.
What I dislike is elven stereotyping, every elf is a pure and noble and perfect exemplar. Their magic is better, their knowledge is more complete, they are better combatants, they have better weapons, better toys, better societies, no other race (except perhaps enlightened humans) can truly begin to comprehend the lofty heights and complexities of elven sophistication. There are never any ugly, stupid, slow, and noxious elven characters, not even any plain and unremarkable ones. Elven societies must practice extreme eugenics to produce populations composed of nothing but superhuman perfection, be favoured by the gods more than any other race, or be unable to adapt as "quickly" as other species (but why then are there so many elven variants and halfbreeds?).
I also dislike the lavish preponderance of elves. They were once exotic, secretive, xenophobic and disinterested in the world of men. These days they are everywhere, so common that sometimes I wonder how humans managed to avoid being bred out by half-elves. In the D&D groups I've seen, most players invariably choose elves or half-elves as their "default" races, then change to human or something else only when they want "something different" or need to fulfill some class restriction.
Just too many damned elves, elves everywhere I look. I nostalgically recall the world as it once was, without so many elves. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Society thinks elves are cool
